How did this go from "bash the blacks" to "bash the Mormons"?

I'll BE there!!

Unfortunately I'll be out of town, but good luck to everyone. Give 'em hell. Make those polygamists wish they never bothered to impose their archaic values on people they've never met.

Make sure Paterson and the new Congress hear you, too. New York's time is at hand.

Sadly, there is a great deal of misinformation about LDS support of prop 8 which suggests Mormons have some sort of vendetta against gays. In reality, many Mormons respect gays' right to live as they choose; even church leaders have officially stated they support legalizing domestic partnerships so that gays can have the rights they deserve.

There is absolutely no plot to "bring their money and influence to bear against the LGBT community." The church leaders simply and briefly requested that members do what they can to support prop 8.

I respect the rights of gay marriage advocates to peacefully protest, but they should do so with a correct understanding of the position of the LDS church and its members, that they do not hate gays or wish persecution on them.

Re: Roisters Post

I think the thinking is that the black community was manipulated, as were lots of others by the hysterical advertising ad campaign funded by the Mormons.

There are so many other groups in the exit polling that voted for Prop 8 overwhelmingly (as in, more than 60%):

* The elderly (65+)
* Republicans
* Conservatives
* People who decided for whom to vote in October (but not within the week before the election)
* People who were contacted by the McCain campaign
* Protestants
* Catholics
* White Protestants
* Those who attend church weekly
* Married people
* People with children under 18
* Gun owners
* Bush voters
* Offshore drilling supporters
* People who are afraid of a terrorist attack
* People who thought their family finances were better now than 4 years ago
* Supporters of the war against Iraq
* People who didn't care about the age of the candidates
* Anti-choicers
* People who are from the "Inland/Valley" region of California
* McCain voters

Some of these groups supported Prop 8 far more than African Americans did, or Mormons.

To Willard:

"Sadly, there is a great deal of misinformation about LDS support of prop 8 which suggests Mormons have some sort of vendetta against gays."

WHAT? I am a San Francisco resident, and the Mormon Church was the main proponent of the YES on 8 campaign. The church and it's member raised over $20 million dollars of the 37 million raised for the Yes on 8 campaign. The Church organized a phone bank in Utah, which called California residents. They were instrumental in formulating the hate-filled and mean-spirited campaign commercials. The Mormon voters may be a small percientage of California voters, but there money was the main source of support for the campaign.

You need to stop drinking the Mormon "Christian KOOLAID.. Next time, why don't you research the facts about the campaign.

Willard,
A "Yes" vote on Prop 8 means intolerance, ignorance, and yes: hate!
The LDS church being the largest supporter of Prop 8 has demonstrated its intolerance, ignorance, and yes: hate! (there are many ways to demonstrate hate, including peaceful and polite ways like in this case).
Stop mixing civil rights with religion. We will respect the Mormons as long as they stop attempting to take our rights away. A Civil Union does NOT provide the same rights as a marrieage.
Peace.

To Willard: When a church or any group of people strategically organize to limit the rights of a class of American citizens (persecution) it can clearly be called a vendetta. You can't have it both ways. You can't say "I respect you" and "I wish you no ill will" and then take steps to have a group of people treated like second class citizens. The position and actions of the Mormon Church support discrimination, hate and divisiveness. Laws that discriminate against minorities also provide rationalization for hate crimes.

Dear Tim Wayne,

Except for these three groups in your list:
* Protestants
* Catholics
* White Protestants

Mormons belong to ALL the other groups of people you listed. SO - YEAH Mormons ARE THE LARGEST gay-marriage opposing religious group of all. I would respect them if they did not try to take my rights away. I am not trying to take their rights away - WHY the hell do they want to mess with me? This is about tolerance people! Keep your religion out of my life.

Am I missing something? It was put to a vote in California. The people spoke. Now what? Do the LGBT want a do over? Should McCain supporters have a protest too? If this thing won't fly in California then you guys have problems that will take more than a protest in the single most liberal square mile in America to solve. Protest, schmotest.

I think it is incredible that the same Mormons who funded all those lying ads about gay people during the Prop 8 campaign in CA where I live are now pretending that they are FOR gay rights! After all the lies they broadcast hour after hour about gay people on CA television day after day, to now paint themselves as innocent victims of gay people shows exactly how stupid they think the public is. And unfortunately they have been proven correct. So far.

Mormon money was used to change the subject from marriage equality to what Johnny would be taught in school.

The face of the Yes on 8 campaign (Richard Peterson of Pepperdine) is Mormon.

The spokeswoman of the Yes on 8 campaign (Sonja Eddings Brown) is Mormon.

The Wirthlins (parents who starred in one of the Yes on 8 scare ads) are Mormon.

Mormon PR flacks Glen Greener and Gary Lawrence came up with the lies that scared the ignorant half of California into voting against equality.

Jeff Flint, co-campaign manager, ran Orrin Hatch's 2000 bid for the Republican prez nomination.

The folks waving "Yes on 8" signs on street corners were predominantly Mormon.

Mormon donors were what? 77% of the donor base?

Mormon money paid for the lies to be broadcast.

But now the election is over and they won't be running any more ads so it's a great time to make sure our message gets through loud and clear.

Without Mormon support, the Yes on 8 campaign would've been dead back in August. Now they own this little "victory" ... it's all theirs.

Of the $600,000 anti-gay bigots had in hand to try to ban gay marriage in Alaska in October 1998, $500,000 came from one big lump sum donation from the Mormon Church. That's 83% of the entire hateful campaign financed by the Mormon Church. In California, one study showed that 77% of the donations to anti-gay advocates came from Mormons (it was after those donations flew in that the pro-gay side suddenly started to lose).

The Mormon Church has a long history of trying to forcefully impose its will, its religion, on others. Over the next few weeks and months, we're going to educate America about those efforts.

Please folks. Don't you know that 90% of Mormons in New York are Democrats and most did not support Prop 8 in spite of what Western Mormons did? I am an active Mormon who fought against prop 8. The state should not be defining marriage, period. Religions should have the right to decide for themselves what marriage means. Most the members of my local Mormon congregation where generally sick to their stomachs with what the church was doing in the west. Please don't picket our Manhattan temple--you will be "preaching to the choir!"

I believe in peace and tolerance for everyone. I mean everyone. Well, except Mormons though, which is why I'll be at the protest.

But seriously, I consider myself an open-minded person. Not like Mormons. Screw them, they all belong in jail.

Would someone please explain to me how civil unions are not legally the same as marriages in California? From what I've personally read on the subject, I wasn't able to tell the difference. I'd kinda like to know why there is such a difference of opinion on the matter. Some say they are legally the same, some say they aren't. What is the truth?

I think it is good to remember that while the LDS church heavily funded the Prop 8 campaign, they were not the only ones involved.

http://www.newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/catholic-bishop-decries-religious-bigotry-against-mormons

"I believe in peace and tolerance for everyone. I mean everyone. Well, except Mormons though, which is why I'll be at the protest."

Rightsguy you are a moron. A bigot for the 'bigots'.

If the NO on Prop 8 folks demonstrated half the energy before the election that they deonstrate now, the stupid law wouldn't have passed in the first place. Folks will protest for the week following the vote, and then forget about it. Mormons were organized and disciplined - you've got to do the same to beat it, not just yell at the local Mormon temple.

The "Mormon Church", as a church, does not fund any particular cause or political party. Their funds are used within the church, not outside. Please understand that if the majority of funding came from mormons,as you are quoting, then it came on an INDIVIDUAL basis. Mormons can think for themselves and can choose what to support or not. I guarantee that most Christian people who faithfully follow their religion voted in favor of this proposition. To be fair, I suggest you protest outside all the Catholic churches & Baptist churches & any other church that believes marriage is defined between one man & one woman.

"Make those polygamists wish they never bothered to impose their archaic values on people they've never met."

1) Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ARE NOT POLYGAMISTS.
2) Why the hell do you impose your values on people you've never met?

But seriously, I consider myself an open-minded person. Not like Mormons. Screw them, they all belong in jail.

Wow really open minded? we should just round up all the momroms then and put them in camps would that make you happy.

Last I checked this happned in Cali and was put to a vote. I guess if your'e person didn't get voted in or youre bill didn't get passed you better protest. I dont like the way you voted so im going to cry and protest. Come on people get real yes the LDS church did give a lot of money but it was more then the mormons who voted for this. How about this next year get it again on the ballots. Just like many people who lose in an election run again and many win. How many of you out there think that if this went the other way the mormons would be protesting. I don't think so they would have a press release saying how disapointed they are and try to have it back on the ballots. But I guess it's ok to atack them after all they are just mormons.

The question that I have is. For a community that asks for tolerance and diversity, why are they so intolerant of anyone who doesn't think exactly as they do??????

"Re: Roisters Post

I think the thinking is that the black community was manipulated, as were lots of others by the hysterical advertising ad campaign funded by the Mormons."

If you can say the above line, then you could argue that blacks were manipulated by Obama. (Not that I believe that.)

Anyway, I'm just trying to point out the ridiculous comment just made.

I used to have respect for the gay community until I saw their reactions to this proposition. You didn't lose because the Mormon's financed proposition 8, you lost because 52% of voting Californians voted for it to pass.

You abused the court systems to override the voice of the people, and the people fought back. And it is somehow the Mormon's fault?

Maybe instead of whining about how you lost and trying to point fingers of blame, you should keeping working with the people to explain your cause.

Explain to them why marriage is important to you. It isn't just about the rights and you all know it. California law provides most of the rights that marriage provides through civil unions. If it were about rights, you'd be fighting to have all of the rights that married couples have, not a complete redefinition of the institution.

I'm guessing it isn't about rights, as much as it is about commitment. You want to be able to let your significant other know that you are committed to them and only them. But is this really the best approach to get this done?

Be civil. You'll get more respect from the community if you do. Otherwise you will hurt your cause with people who sit on the fence like me, because instead of looking like patient, mature, rational adults, you'll look like the little kid in the grocery store who throws a fit because his parents wouldn't let him have candy. You'll just annoy everyone.

LATEST UPDATE OF CURRENT AND UPCOMING PROETESTS

AT

WWW.PROP8PROTESTS.COM

SPREAD THE WORD

To those who are angry with the Mormons or any other group for mixing religion and politics, you obviously do not understand the government of the United States.

Any system of laws is based upon the Moral and Ethical viewpoint of those who establish the law. We most certainly do, as we should, legislate morality in this country. There are laws against incest, prostitution, polygamy, drug use, etc. Many may argue that these laws should be overturned since those involved don't effect anyone else but themselves. However, so long as there is majority consent to the moral viewpoint behind the law, the law will stand. There used to be laws against adultery and alcohol, but there is no longer a majority consent to the morality that opposed them, and the laws have been overturned.

Mormons, along with many other religions, view homosexuality as immoral, and therefore they do not wish to see it supported by government by allowing same sex couples to marry. A claim to a "Civil Right" to marry is quite a stretch. We have the right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness", and beyond that we only have what rights the law gives us. There is no civil right to smoke dope, or marry your sibling, or have as many spouses as you'd like. In fact, there is no civil right to Marry at all. Anyone who continues to rant about Civil Rights only shows his ignorance.

I will admit that there are bigoted, hateful people who are against gay rights, which I think is absolutely despicable. However, you cannot argue that because an individual or a group does not hold your same moral viewpoint that they are hateful. I encourage anyone to read the link below and try to find an ounce of hate or bigotry in the official statement from the Mormon church.

On the other hand, I find many of the things said against the Mormon church to be very hateful and narrow minded.

Please be tolerant of the desire of the people of California to preserve the sanctity of traditional marriage in their state.

It is unfortunate that there is not a greater understanding of what the objection was on the Ballot. Should it have been to ban Gay Marriage? I am not sure,perhaps not. But on the other side most people are very uninformed, in that the California school system actually does permit teaching of same gender messages. It is cloaked under relationships in health classes and is very ambiguos with no rights for parents to be informed or opt out if it is taught in a certain way. In fact up in Canada they openly state their objective is to teach same gender in the classrooms. I think that is the big objection. If same gender marriage was permitted with the ability to have an iron clad law in place that said a parent can pull their children out of those classes then I think people would be more supportive. Just as the LGBT community wants equal rights to their privacy, it cannot be at the expense of others rights. Those families that disagree should be given the same courtesy to thier privacy. It is a sad thing to see the Gay community have to struggle for the recognition, but also it is sad to see the hate and anger they are showing back as conveyed in some of these posts and protests. Is that tolerance any better than what you are asking for.
Lets talk and work it out together rather than force it upon each other

What I find interesting about this entire campaign is how one sided it truly is. So much hate and anger, intolerence of beliefs and practices, and true bigotry spewing from one side. To all of those upset about the vote, think long and hard about hate that you have recieved from the LDS church. The real hate and anger is coming from the no side.

The vote on prop 8 was as much to protect religious practice as it was to enable a religious practice. Why in the hell is the gay community trying to obtain a religious title, all the while crying about how the LDS church should keep their religious views out of the civil world. If it is not a matter of the religious title, then there should not be any crying as the civil and legal rights already exist.

Just like many have stated, those that vote yes on 8 would most likely support complete and equal legal and civil rights to gay couples. Go, fight for equal rights, but do not try and take something that is not for the taking. The people have spoken!

Homosexuality is perverted, and the gay community has tried to force their obscene lifestyle on others, including innocent children. Gays can clamor all they want about not being able to "legislate morality", but it's done all the time... it's the basis of our laws. Polygamy was ruled unconstitutional by the vote of the people. Why is that not legislating morality? Why is it illegal for consenting adults to practice plural marriage?

LET'S FLASH BACK TO THE DAY AFTER THE ELECTION AND "PRETEND" THAT PROP 8 DID NOT PASS…..HOW WOULD THIS ARTICLE SOUND?

"ATTENTION ALL MORMONS, CATHOLICS, BLACKS, AND MEXICANS WHO HEAVILY SUPPORTED PROPOSITION 8. TOO BAD WE LOST OUR BATTLE, BUT WE ARE PISSED! I AM URGING ALL OF YOU TO GATHER TONIGHT AT 7PM AT YOUR LOCAL GAY CENTER, GAY BAR, GAY CLUB, OR ANYWHERE ELSE GAY WITH SIGNS, POSTERS, AND CANDLES TO PROTEST THAT PROP 8 DID NOT PASS. LETS STICK IT TO ALL THE GAYS WHO MADE PROP 8 NOT PASS. HOW DARE THEY GO AROUND AND TELL PEOPLE TO NOT VOTE FOR PROP 8. LETS MAKE SURE WE SURROUND ALL OF THEIR GAY HANGOUTS TONIGHT AND TELL THEM THAT GAYS SUCK AND SHOULD BURN IN HELL."

NOW, HOW DOES THAT SOUND? NOT PRETTY NICE, RIGHT? SO WHY DO PEOPLE THINK IT IS ACCEPTABLE TO PROTEST AT MORMON TEMPLES? IT IS THE DEFINITION IS BEING A HYPOCRITE. AND ALL THE POSTS THAT SAY THE LDS CHURCH DONATED MILLIONS OF DOLLARS FOR PROP 8, WHY DON'T YOU TRY AND FIND THAT FACTS……THE "MEMBERS" OF THE CHURCH, NOT THE CHURCH ITSELF, WERE URGED TO DONATE THEIR TIME AND MONEY TO THIS CAUSE. THE CHURCH ITSELF SPENT AROUND $2,000, YEP TWO-THOUSAND DOLLARS, TO FLY OUT CHURCH OFFICIALS TO MEET WITH MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH IN CALIFORNIA.
HOW ABOUT YOU MOVE ON AND FIND BETTER THINGS TO DO WITH YOUR TIME.

Hmmm...prop 8 protect marriage against polygamy, too.

To Kim: "It was put to a vote"

If the majority of California votes tomorrow to reinstate slavery, would that be okay?

Without Prop 8 the term “marriage” is just “some relationship between some people". When government orders us all to believe that “marriage” includes every form of human sexual relationship, it in effect establishes a state religion which celebrates that no marriage is unique . . . . how does that benefit anyone?

We all agree the terms “heterosexuality”, “homosexuality” and “bisexuality” involve unique relationships. How does society benefit from suddenly ignoring those unique differences by using the same legal term, “marriage”, to define all human sexual relationships? We currently protect various defined races, ethnicities, etc., without ignoring their unique differences, why must it be different when we look to sexuality?

Gays are spitting on Latinos & Blacks and their right to Vote and be counted! Latino & Black cultures have lifted and improved our society - while self-centered whining Gays refuse to acknowledge the important role of Latinos and Blacks.

I understand that most mormons on the east coast were against prop 8. I appreciate that some people really honor their individual beliefs.

Also, One idea I have is get the list of companies that supported prop 8 and protest in front of their stores and offices as well as send them angry mail as long as the mail sending would be legal.
Keep up the great work!

Well I will vote for LSD anytime I can.

JUST the facts. Here is the donor list rearding prop 8 you can look it up by for or against or both by city, name and zip. They can no longer hide. You will be stunned. Spread the list

Http://www.sfgate.com/webdb/prop8/?search+again

In general, the Christian people who supported proposition 8 and who support similar legislation do not want to take away gay rights. We want you to have health benefits, fair housing, fair employment, etc. We want people to be free to believe as they choose, and we don't want to force our values on you. We just also want to be able to practice our religion according to our own feelings, and to have some say in what is taught to our children in public schools.

Dear Landon,

News flash! Gays have been protested against in the past - or don't you read the news? It's nothing new for conservative jerks to tote "God hates fags" signs on some stupid picket line. So don't try to scare us with your "what-if" scenarios. They've already happened.

Somthing to ponder: I wonder when women would have received the right to vote if it had been left to men to vote on. I wonder when blacks would have won equal rights if it had been left to whites to vote on. WHAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN ON THE WRONG SIDE OF HISTORY? Religion.

I saw the link on the LDS that addresses the issue. I think its very polite and well-worded. I also think its a load of BS.

These measures employed by the people take away the rights of a minority. People claim that no one has a civil right to marry, but in reality it is an inherent right bestowed on all heterosexual individuals in today's society. The only barrier to marriage historically has been between people of differing races. This hurdle has been overcome, to the benefit of all society, because the restriction against inter-racial marriage was deemed wrong by the judicial branch, despite popular opinion for the restriction.

The present issue is also wrong, and it will have to be up to the judicial branch to again step in and save a class of citizens for discrimination.

In the meantime, I don't care how tolerant or loving a religious institution you present yourself to be. Your efforts, however "polite", have taken away my rights, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let you blunt me into submission by requesting that I be "respectful." YOU WILL NOT GET AWAY WITH IT. I'll see you all tomorrow!

The official Mormon Church (LDS) actually DID contribute to the "Yes On Proposition 8" campaign. Search for yourself at http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-metro-prop-8,0,2463893.htmlstory and type in "Church of Jesus Christ". It will show a contribution from the LDS in Salt Lake City. You can also find the same information by going to http://www.sfgate.com/webdb/prop8, typing in "Church of Jesus Christ", and pressing "search".

Of course, the largest contributions from from individual members of the Mormon Church--with contributions from Mormons estimated to be as high as $22,000,000. (See http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rick-jacobs/mormon-church-on-prop-8-w_b_140804.html.

The mormons are clearly not experts on marriage, or even relationships. They have imposed their views on the American people for far too long, as have many other religious extremists, even sending out their young members to recruit. Let's remember that this is a "religion" with a long history of polygamy, child abuse and disregard to women's rights. How could they possibly even bring up the question of marriage, considering they practice it as an institution between a man and several women? I know not all mormons are polygamists, but it is a fundamental belief within their faith. They must be delusional! Marriage is a sacred institution between two people who love each other. Considering how few actually practice monogamy these days, we should be giving anyone who wishes to exchange these sacred vows a huge pat on the back, gay or straight. Religious extremists need to keep their laws and twisted rules to themselves, and if they can't keep up with the progress of the world, then too bad for them! The rest of us choose to evolve and move forward, and we need to unite against those who want to hold back progress!

The right to peaceable assembly is explicity protected in the Constitution. I certainly don't agree with the purpose of the protest: it is the impotent fall-back of a disorganized and chaotic movement picking an easy and unaffected target. "The cause" would be much better served by mimicing the organization and discipline embodied by the Mormons. Write congressmen, stuff envelopes, donate money. (Unfortunately, none of those are as fun as flag-waving, sign-painting and slogan-chanting ... which is likely why Proposition 8 passed.)

But peaceful protests themselves are a beautiful symbol of a healthy democracy.
Just don't break any windows.

I will be there. I am printing and passing out flyers at my school and in the village tonight and telling EVERYONE I KNOW !!!

And to all of you people who say that the mormons in NY are dems and support gay rights etc and we shouldnt be protesting them we are not protesting that particular building or its members!!! we are protesting the general organization which, as a whole, was the by far biggest supporter of "yes to 8". If the members of that church do not support their brother and sisters choices on the west coast I invite you to stand by our side and protest THEM!!!!

This is an issue that tugs at my heart strings. Similar to homosexuals, I too have been persecuted for trying to obtain my rights and privileges as an American. I think it is disgusting how hateful and bigoted religious-types can get when a group of people lays claim to rights that don't have any ramifications for anyone but themselves. WHY DO THESE BIGOTS CARE THAT GAY PEOPLE WANT TO GET MARRIED? It is akin to my desire to receive affirmative action as an African American. You see, I emigrated to America from South Africa, and while my ancient ancestors were Dutch, my great-great-great-great grandparents moved to South Africa and my family has lived there since, until I moved to Wisconsin last year. I am an African-American, and yet I receive none of the rights and privileges that I am owed. Just like gays, I am only asking for what is fair. I will be at your protest, and I encourage us all to continue to the White House, where we shall remain until it is re-named "The Gay African-American House"

To Prop 8 haters,

Im tired of your excuses. You rant that the mormans funded much of the Yes on 8 campaign, yet your side raised MORE money for your cause. People voted this way because this is what they wanted, nobody forced them to do it. Im tired of seeing your crying, whining, riots, hate-speek, blame-throwing, and lawsuits. How dare you threaten my rights as a voter! How dare you think it acceptable to try and overthrow the will of the American People for your selfish wants. Your actions have made me lose all respect for you.

To all the angry dudes and dude-ettes:

WHOA! This article is, like, totally triumphant. I know all you chicks who like other chicks (y'know, LIKE like) think the man is tryin to hold you down and kill your buzz. But c'mon ladies, dudes are okay too. I know some guys are all like, "you can't be married", but you just gotta be all like, "well maybe I'll take my top off" and they'll be all like "Schwinggg!!!" (I'm talking super robot chubbies). And while they're admiring you lovely ladies, maybe they'll realize that we all just wanna be loved.

**air guitar solo**

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to go back in time and save some princess babes, cuz I'm not a fag. Catchya later everybody; be excellent to each other, and PARTY ON, DUDES!

Interesting. Gays and Lesbians have found what they think is a scapegoat – the Mormons. They think, "Well, here's a group that's as popular to hate as ourselves. Let's roast them for our failure to pass a bill."

The LDS Church is THE fastest growing church in the world. This will only make them stronger. The people who join this Church do so because it stands up for what it believes in, and people even say you won't find a more industrious, devout, and happy people in all the world.

I think your short-sighted attacks will only make them stronger. And if so, you'll have an even larger group to fight in the future.

To Dan:

If California passed a law to eat babies, would that be okay?

Whichever side you take, it has nothing to do with gay marriage.

Seriously, you are comparing the denial of marriage to slavery, and that is not okay. I don't remember a time in history when gay men and women had to pick cotton because they were purchased by wealthy plantation owners.

To everyone:

I'm tired of hearing about "the gay community" and "the mormon community" as though they are all-encompassing identities that completely encapsulate the ideals of everyone who is gay or mormon, respectively. I have gay friends who don't care about marriage and mormon friends who think homosexuals have a right to get married.

Let's be realistic. This protest will consist of a bunch of whiny brats who will project their anger towards some organization they have dehumanized in order to feel a sense of righteousness in the face of a minor setback to their lifestyle choices (or the lifestyle choices of those whom they feel they are advocating). If anything, it is just another disservice to a form of civil disobedience that used to actually carry some weight.

It is important to say that NOT ALL LDS MEMBERS support Prop 8!!! My wife's father,(born and raised LDS) is a California resident and has contributed money to its defeat...And in reference to Matt's comment, that database of contributors, ALSO lists people who have contributed money AGAINST it. No Church is perfect, (only God is) and just because I disagree on this one point, doesn't mean I am also going against church teachings.
Personally, my wife and I as LDS members have supported equal rights for ALL humans on many issues.
So, if you are going tonight, certainly express your opinion, voice your dissent, but remember, you can't judge all of our LDS members as a whole, when not all of us played a part in this controversy.

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was, by far, the biggest financer of California's heinous and hateful Proposition 8."

Actually, that's a false statement. As far as I'm aware the church didn't give a dime to the effort.

Citizens of the state of California and the US exercised their constitutional privileges to express their opinions.

It's fair to say the LDS church called attention to the issue and asked members to support it. To say the LDS church bankrolled it is false.

You may as well say, "The United States bankrolled it" since every LDS person who may have donated time or money is a member of the US too.

Get over this majority-privileged, hypocritical reaction to our protesting. We have every right to protest peacefully (and that's not "civil disobedience" - some might even say it's a civil duty), just as there is a right to hold a vote on legislating discrimination, which might not be legal even if voted in. As Americans, we should all celebrate both those rights. As a minority, gays are excluded from political decisions unless we speak up, loudly. Protests are one of the few ways we can call attention to our cause. Look it up in the Constitution, it's called freedom of speech and assembly, and it's what people mean when they say this is "a free country" and say the word "liberty", and it’s not just for heterosexuals or other majority groups. We have every right to challenge the legality of discrimination legislation: just because a majority of people have a certain opinion about a certain minority doesn't make it automatically legal for the majority to discriminate against that minority. If that were always legal, every ethnic and religious minority would be subject to the whims of "tolerance" by the majority races & religions. And we have every right to point out that the desire to discriminate against us is based on fear, ignorance and maybe hatred of us, and to point out that this is the belief promoted by certain institutional religions (who, by the way, are allowed to influence the political process even though they are tax-exempt!). In a constitutional democracy, the rights of all minorities not to be trampled upon must be protected. Discriminating against our committed family relationships in the legal system is trampling upon our rights. What religions dictate is entirely up to them, and the Constitution doesn't want to even know about that. And just because not all gay people want to get married doesn't mean we "don't care" about our right to do so. So easy for someone who isn't gay to say that about us - divide and conquer, we've heard it before.

PS - everyone is a member of some minority or other.

PPS - Protesting is not "bashing", a word that implies violence. Gays have been literally bashed by people, and governments, for centuries. Peaceful protesting against discrimination is not bashing - it's a fundamental right of people in a free country. The protest isn't saying Mormons are bad; we're saying, what the leadership of the Mormon Church have done is bad.

throughout these comments people have been saying like this:
"Last I checked this happned in Cali and was put to a vote. I guess if your'e person didn't get voted in or youre bill didn't get passed you better protest. I dont like the way you voted so im going to cry and protest." (Nate at November 10, 2008 4:02 PM)

This is not an issue about a candidate, this about civil rights. What would you say to those African-Americans if in 1950 there was a vote to allow equal rights for them and the results were that a majority voted against it. Would you tell African-Americans "oh the people voted so boo hoo for you" No, of course not. That's why I'm protesting.

Does the gay community truly care about this issue? If so, they aren't acting like it. Instead of educating potential future voters about their position, they tell others to "go to hell," vandalise their homes, and call anyone a bigot who does not agree with them. Instead of labeling people, try focusing on respect, educating others, and taking the high road. That is what the last civil rights movement in this country did. Let's be honest, what effect will a protest at a mormon church in NYC have? Is it going to win people over? especially when the people in NYC had nothing to do with a vote in Cali? and especially if the protestors intimidate the mormons who are sitting quietly within the four walls of the church? Stop wasting your time and focus on places and topics where real change can occur.

I know it was two days ago but I have to say that the point Dan made (11/10 4:05PM) is exactly what I've been saying regarding these protests. And I'm gay, and opposed to Prop 8, and support gay marriage. But this is not the best way to go about it.

Dan I hope it's alright but I quoted your comment in my blog (link above). And I hope people read it to get a different perspective than all the angry protesting that's being whipped up.

These protests are hilarious. If you people were even half as organized before the election you might have won. Instead, you all sat around while other groups picketed and shared (peacefully) why they supported Proposition 8 and won the election. Now, you lost through a democratic process (for the second time) and are crying about it. California is now the 30th state to accept such a vote and you need to get over it.

You have turned all your anger at a church that you claim funded the entire movement in favor of proposition 8. However, the reality is that nobody has actually produced the numbers that back this up. You all site articles, but all these articles say is that the number is an estimate and the exact number of donations from members of this church are hard to determine since donors were not required to give a religious affiliation. Even if they donnated a large portion of the money, that still doesn't explain why you are so discriminatory in your protests.

Yes, you who claim to be above discrimination are not protesting in front of every Catholic cathedral, or Baptist church, or other religious organization who opposed you. Hipocrits? Even the majority of African-Americans and Hispanics voted yes for Prop 8 yet I don't see you holding protests in Harlem, Compton, or Inglewood? Why is that? Afraid somebody might actually fight back against your uneducated attacks against Prop 8 supporters?

(I say uneducated because Polygamy was discontinued in the Mormon church in 1890. Now, anyone who practices polygamy is excommunicated from the church. However, you all still like to say Mormons are all polygamists on your signs at the protests.)

So what is a group who has been voted out of the second most liberal city/state in the US supposed to do? Move on to the most liberal city/state in the Union and stir up the anger and hatred there. Even though none of the Mormon church leaders you claim to be fighting are here. Even though none of the Mormons here voted on the proposition. Yet, you all have decided to fight them here. (Probably because this is the only place you outnumber them.) Also, why aren't you protesting in Arizona and Florida where a similar proposition just passed?

Go get married in Connecticut or Massachusetts if that is really what you want. I don't think it is since you can still have all the rights granted under marriage in California, but be my guest.

Oh, and by the way, marriage is not a right, its a priviledge.

Does anyone want to actually resolve this? It can be. Simply take the word "marriage" out of the legal lexicon. Done. Create a proposition that states that Religions and individuals can decide for themselves what the word "marriage" means and give everyone, both hetero and homo, civil unions--legal agreements with equal rights. This makes it impossible to force churches to marry gays without losing tax rights (one of their biggest fears) and keeps schools from teaching that the State has an official definition of "marriage." Everyone's happy. On the other hand, if we give marriage to heteros with specific special rights, we have to give them to homos as well. Equal protection folks. Everyone is going about this wrong. By the way, Mormons out in New York, were mostly against prop 8. You are doing little good picketing out here.

To those of you concerned about same sex marriages undermining the foundation of your "sacred institution," I would like to direct your attention to the divorce rate statistics in this country. You have already made a mockery of this precious "privilege" all on your own. This is a civil rights issue. Civil rights issues should not be decided by a popular vote. If they were, I firmly believe a referendum to desegregate schools would have never passed during the 1950's. So, yes, we're angry. And each and every one of you that tries to deny us our basic civil rights is going to hear about it until you leave us alone. We will not quietly accept your judgements any longer!

To Michael:

When you say, "Each and every one of you that tries to deny us our basic civil rights is going to hear about it until you leave us alone," I would just like to remind you that we didn't start this fight. You did. So don't tell us to leave you alone. What I interpret your statement to mean is we are going to hear your continuous whining until you get what you want; because we would gladly leave you alone. In fact, that is what we have always done. You and all the other gays/lesbians are the drama-queens who demand on being front and center of all the attention. However, when everyone else got to have their say, and you lost, suddenly we are the bigots. Last I checked everyone was free to have their own opinions and vote accordingly.

People, let's move on from all the ‘what if’ scenarios and conjecture. Slavery would not be voted for again because, through education, we know it is wrong.

This issue is about the right to pursue happiness and be granted the same rights as any other American.
Before you start spewing nonsense read up on your history; did you know that in America blacks were not allowed to legally marry each other? Nor were a black person to a white person. Did you know that people fought against this right because they thought it was immoral, and that is was only through heavy protest that this right was granted?
Some racists still believe it's wrong, and they exist and protest. They're not the majority anymore, thankfully.

SO WHAT CHOICE DO WE HAVE THAN TO PROTEST, when fundamentally it should be our right as human beings, as it is a right to our fellow Americans, to simply make a commitment to the person we love, no matter their sex.

Hate crimes are particularly dealt with differently by the authorities because of their basis in prejudiced views.
Have you watched the ads that were run in support of a YES vote on Prop 8, could you tell me they were not prejudiced?
Ask yourself what's worse, to deny the right for two people who love each to commit to each other as any other American can, or actively slander their character as deviant and immoral and refer to their existence as a lifestyle choice. They both seem quite horrible to me.

ASK YOURSELF WHY THIS IS EVEN AN ISSUE THAT NEEDS VOTING ON? If the constitution grants us the right to happiness then why do we need the moralist's blessing to receive it? If this is nothing more than an imposition of perceived values than I don't know what it is. Two consenting American adults should have this right, they do if they marry someone of the same sex, why the hypocrisy. Because some antiquated religious view, which will be a myth someday, says so?

People, let's think for ourselves, and treat each other as equal in the eyes of the law, my god is not your god nor is it your god. Is it not intentional that our symbol of justice is blindfolded as to represent an unbiased view will be taken of those who stand before her, and the scales will balance evenly on each case presented. Marriage equality for everyone is not asking for terribly much. But it needs the support of all of us, not just those who will directly benefit from it, to become a right for every American.

Dig down deep…DOES THE IDEA OF TWO MEN OR TWO WOMEN BEING WITH EACH OTHER SOMEHOW BOTHER YOU, I imagine for a lot of you it does. And you probably have never told anyone. Now ask yourself why you feel this way; because deep down you know it’s wrong, or because it’s something that has been drilled into your head year after year, prejudiced comment after prejudiced comment. Tell me if you can really devalue someone’s worth, and therefore their rights, based not on the content of their character but by what type of person they choice to be with.

“The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists. That is why they invented Hell.” -Bertrand Russell

We LDS did what civic-minded Americans can and should do. Here are a few facts that help to appreciate our position better:
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1. Mormons make up less than 2% of the population of California . There are approximately 800,000 LDS out of a total population of approximately 34 million.
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2. Mormon voters were less than 5% of the yes vote. If one estimates that 250,000 LDS are registered voters (the rest being children), then LDS voters made up 4.6% of the Yes vote and 2.4% of the total Proposition 8 vote.
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3. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) donated no money to the Yes on 8 campaign. Individual members of the Church were encouraged to support the Yes on 8 efforts and, exercising their constitutional right to free speech, donated whatever they felt like donating.
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4. The No on 8 campaign raised more money than the Yes on 8 campaign. Unofficial estimates put No on 8 at $38 million and Yes on 8 at $32 million, making it the most expensive non-presidential election in the country.
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5. Advertising messages for the Yes on 8 campaign are based on case law and real-life situations. The No on 8 supporters have insisted that the Yes on 8 messaging is based on lies. Every Yes on 8 claim is supported.
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6. The majority of our friends and neighbors voted Yes on 8. Los Angeles County voted in favor of Yes on 8. Ventura County voted in favor of Yes on 8.
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7. African Americans overwhelmingly supported Yes on 8. Exit polls show that 70% of Black voters chose Yes on 8. WITH THIS LEVEL OF SUPPORT FROM BLACK VOTERS, WHY ARE THE PRO-HATE-VOTE-NO-ON-8 PROTESTERS NOT DEMONSTRATING IN THE BLACK COMMUNITIES????
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8. The majority of Latino voters voted Yes on 8. Exit polls show that the majority of Latinos supported Yes on 8 and cited religious beliefs (assumed to be primarily Catholic).
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9. The Yes on 8 coalition was a broad spectrum of religious organizations. Catholics, Evangelicals, Protestants, Orthodox Jews, Muslims – all supported Yes on 8. It is estimated that there are 10 million Catholics and 10 million Protestants in California . Mormons were a tiny fraction of the population represented by Yes on 8 coalition members.
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10. Not all Mormons voted in favor of Proposition 8. Our faith accords that each person be allowed to choose for him or her self. Church leaders have asked members to treat other members with "civility, respect and love," despite their differing views.
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11. The Church did not violate the principal of separation of church and state. This principle is derived from the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." The phrase "separation of church and state", which does not appear in the Constitution itself, is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson, although it has since been quoted in several opinions handed down by the United States Supreme Court in recent years. The LDS Church is under no obligation to refrain from participating in the political process, to the extent permitted by law. U.S. election law is very clear that Churches may not endorse candidates, but may support issues. The Church as always been very careful on this matter and occasionally (not often) chooses to support causes that it feels to be of a moral nature.
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12. The change in favor of Prop 8 among Catholic voters during the campaign was greater than Prop 8's margin of victory.
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13. Supporters of Proposition 8 did exactly what the Constitution provides for all citizens: they exercised their First Amendment rights to speak out on an issue that concerned them, make contributions to a cause that they support, and then vote in the regular electoral process. For the most part, this seems to have been done in an open, fair, and civil way. Opponents of 8 have accused supporters of being bigots, liars, and worse. The fact is, we simply did what Americans do – we spoke up, we campaigned, and we voted.

AMEN! Michael said it perfectly... You CANNOT have a popular vote on RIGHTS! That is what the COURTS are for.
Angry in LA

Don't forget to come out this Saturday, Nov. 15 for the NYC protest in front of City Hall at 1:30.

www.jointheimpact.com

Bravo Michael! RIGHTS issues are decided by the COURTS not by the popular vote. Historically "hot button" issues such as desegregation,interracial marriage, and even giving women the right to vote would have never passed by referendum. California's system is seriously flawed.
ANGRY in LA

Hey everyone! Wasn't this voted on last week? And...correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the MAJORITY of California voters vote YES on Prop 8?

Millions of voters made their choice and just because you don't like it doesn't change a thing. You lost. Deal.

I'm totally for the Federal legalization of same-sex marriage, and have some wonderful gay friends, but activists in this case are being cowards as usual. Why only target the Mormon Church? Notice how they don't have the guts to leave Manhattan to protest in minority neighborhoods, like at virulently homophobic Senator Diaz' home in the Bronx, or in Crown Heights, Brooklyn.

saying gays protesting is like asking for a do-over is like saying that black people protesting for their civil rights were asking for a do-over during the civil rights movement!

Here is a link to some images that I captured at the Prop 8 demonstration in NYC on Wednesday evening:

http://bittenbyazebra.wordpress.com/2008/11/13/prop-h8-child-brides-yes-gay-marriage-no/

Bob

I am a Mormon, from California, who voted NO on prop 8. My whole family voted NO, and many of my church friends voted NO. Please don't assume that we are all blindly led. Many of us are supporters of gay marriage and look forward to the day we can all be equal. By the way, were you aware that there are Mormon websites that are in favor of marriage equality?

Nice shots Bob!

Here's some from my flickr:

http://flickr.com/photos/jasonsmith/sets/72157608993023696/

Taking all technicalities into consideration you cannot be a mormon and support gay marriage. If you are a true mornon and follow the book of mormon, which does indeed call being gay an abomination, how can you possibly support gay marriage? If you TRULY believe in equality and love than you shouldn't be a part of a community that donates money to spread hate. By being a part of such a cult you thus support their existence.

"Taking all technicalities into consideration you cannot be a mormon and support gay marriage. If you are a true mornon and follow the book of mormon, which does indeed call being gay an abomination, how can you possibly support gay marriage?"

You don't have a clue what you are talking about. The Book of Mormon doesn't say a word about homosexuality. In fact, it is the most liberal book you will ever read. It advocates for redistribution of wealth, calls for a society where there is "no poor among us" condemns preemptive war, advocates separation of church and state, and comdenms governments that take away personal agency.

The embracing of the religious right by the majority of western Mormons is truly a departure from the fundamentals of Mormons doctrine.

I am a Mormon who is against Prop 8, but also against the gay rights movement scapgoating the Mormons for what happened just because people don't like us. Hate is wrong on both sides. We are both people who are persecuted for "being." We can share that bond. Let's stop persecuting each other.

And these are the champions of love, equality, and tolerance? This kind of hostility is how they convey their message? They accuse a respectable group of people of "hate" when the Mormons have expressed none, but then they toss back hate-filled declamations in a staggering display of self-unawareness. Overzealous demogoguery is a danger to every republic. "Read up on your history..." lol. Too much!

Mindblowing.

To disagree with your values is not to hate. Does a woman that votes in favor of increased restrictions on abortions a "woman-hater"? Does a person who instead votes against such legislation a "baby-hater"? Isn't it possible to believe things should be a certain way, without "hating" others? Are proponents of same-sex marriage "traditionalist-haters?" (I'm starting to wonder...)

I will both continue to oppose same-sex marriage and to love and respect individuals--even the ones I disagree with. I hope others do the same.

Please visit:

www.exploringprop8.blogspot.com

Just so you know, wikipedia says:

Religious organizations that supported Proposition 8 include the Roman Catholic Church, Knights of Columbus, Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Rick Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church, California's largest, also endorsed the measure. The Bishops of the California Catholic Conference released a statement supporting the proposition.

Lets see some Courage Campaign commercials with black ministers and rabbis.
Lets see some protests at cathedrals and synagogues.
I'm LDS; time for LGBT to show some equal-opportunity protest of all of us, instead of hitting just LDS targets.

Why not target Catholics,Baptists,JW's'
Evangelicals, Blacks, Republicans?
Why just the Mormons? If you can't be civil about this you will lynch yourselves in the end.

Hey, I'm a member of the LDS church and I can't tell you how excited I get to see these people protesting in front of our temples. I love it!! This means that our religion can have a great impact on the world. So keep up the good work, you only make us smile!

Let me clear this whole polygomy thing up. We are NOT polygomists. (maybe I should protest for plural marriage, I could use some help around the house when my husband is at work). That would be the FLDS group. Any person who practices polygomy would be booted out of our church.

Our church members were killed and mocked for their beliefs back in the 1800's. They got up and WALKED across the US for religious freedom, men dying along the way. Many selfless men with families of their own, took these fatherless families in and made them a part of their own family. (They didn't trek to Utah to practice polygomy). We have tried to uphold every good and precious moral value that there is left in the world.

If you are a Christian, then you know that God is the same yesturday, today and forever. The Scriptures are reminders to us of what God does to people who break his laws. He will not accept homosexuality as okay, he has already made that clear. I don't want to see a second Sodom and Gomorrah, but frankly, it's already here.

My word! This is obviously a very emotional issue, and either the strong emotion is causing people to forget their heads, and act in irrational, angry and even hateful ways, or else it is a mask for a more destructive agenda. I am beginning to think there are individuals in the GLTB community who have it out for traditional families. Maybe they were hurt in the past? and never got over it? and now want to hurt those who represent what they never had: a stable, safe, nurturing family environment with both a mother and a father who appropriately love and care for them. I don't know - I just wish everyone would choose to get along. If such not-getting-along escalates, we won't have a society or a country sufficient to protect any of our liberties.

I would like to point out a few facts on Proposition 8 in the state of california. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints does not support plural marriage. They are not polgymists and must support Plural or better known as signle marriage.

Also, it was not church money that went to the prop 8 campaign it was private donors. The gay and lesbian community is acting no diffrent than a state governor who ordered the murder of mormons or the KLAN which hated blacks. Hypocrits, why aren't you protestinmg the catholic archdioces or some other groups like the baptists that supported prop 8.

Greeting. We should be eternally vigilant against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe.
I am from Gabon and learning to write in English, give true I wrote the following sentence: "See the world famous zoo, sea world, the hotel del coronado, the coronado bridge spanish missions, and more."

Thanks :(. Isha.

The Mormon Church didn't spend 2 thousand dollars, they spent more than 20 million. Be honest.

"I would like to point out a few facts on Proposition 8 in the state of california. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints does not support plural marriage. They are not polgymists and must support Plural or better known as signle marriage.

Also, it was not church money that went to the prop 8 campaign it was private donors. The gay and lesbian community is acting no diffrent than a state governor who ordered the murder of mormons or the KLAN which hated blacks. Hypocrits, why aren't you protestinmg the catholic archdioces or some other groups like the baptists that supported prop 8."
--
I am an eastern US Mormon. Listen to me. The Mormon church absolutely discourages polygammy. I supported Prop 8. My family was not asked to donate money or time by the church. We decided ourselves.

HOW DARE YOU tell anyone that they are so bad for donating money to Prop8 when i'm sure the opponents to Prop8 spent much much more money trying to counter it.

What you did to my church is not acceptable. You terrorized the members by sending the white powder to the temples and by protesting radically infront of our temple (which, hey! isn't as bad as the other thing :) )

Point is you have to understand that the Mormons are not polygamist. We don't want to take away your rights. We don't want that. We want you to TOLERATE us as much as we TOLERATE you. It's funny. You are telling us we are wrong. We are telling you that you are wrong. (We- meaning Prop8 supporters)

Can no one understand that you have such skewed and enraged views of people you pretend to know?

Here are facts. A gay curriculum, against parent's will is being taught in California public schools. (how many? not sure.) This was against parent's will.

GAYS CHOOSE TO BE GAY. JUST AS I CAN TURN AROUND AND STATE IM GAY RIGHT NOW!

I'm gay.

Nope nevermind.

Actually....

Get it?

Blacks cant choose to be white ect ect.

Comments welcome and I'd love to answer anyone's questions.

I am a eastern US mormon who supports traditional marriage. I am SO tired of bias.

I am a highschool student ready to leave for college and all I ever get is pro-gay propaganda in my school and slander for those that oppose you.

Peace,
Eastern Mormon.

With all respect (or as much as implied:)

Instead of assuming or relying on rumors about the church. Do something that makes SENSE. Go to the source and read what it says. Go to Mormon.org and actually try to find truth not blatant ill-intended lies.

Thanks.

AND TO THOSE WHO DEFENDED THE CHURCH I THANK YOU WARMLY. This thread has a lot of hate... and it's not for gays.