Ask Andrew W.K.: Prayer Is Stupid, Right?

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Photo by Ashley Eberbach
[Editor's note: Every Wednesday, New York City's own Andrew W.K. takes your life questions and sets you safely down the right path to a solution, a purpose or — no surprise here — a party. Need his help? Just ask: AskAWK@villagevoice.com]

Hey, Andrew.

Thanks for doing what you do and helping people. I'm going to make this short and to the point. My older brother was diagnosed with cancer last week. My whole family is freaking out and trying to deal with the news. Everyone is trying to find different ways to help, but something my grandmother said has really got me angry. She said we should all just "pray for my brother," like prayer would actually save his life. Just thinking about it now makes my fists clench with frustration. We need to actively help my brother and do actual things to save him, not kneeling on the ground and mumbling superstitious nonsense. I got into a fight with my grandmother and the rest of my family about this and now I feel worse than ever. I need to get them to see that praying and religious mumbo jumbo doesn't help. How do I explain this to them?

Thanks for reading this,
Not Gonna Pray

See also: Ask Andrew W.K.: My Dad Is a Right-Wing Asshole

Dear Not Gonna Pray,

I'm deeply sorry to hear about your brother's diagnosis. I'm sending you my thoughts, and my heart goes out to your brother and your whole family. Guess what? That was me praying for you. I think the idea of "praying" is a lot less complicated, a lot more powerful, and a little different than you may realize. In fact, I'll bet you're already praying all the time and just don't realize it.

Prayer is a type of thought. It's a lot like meditation — a type of very concentrated mental focus with passionate emotion directed towards a concept or situation, or the lack thereof. But there's a special X-factor ingredient that makes "prayer" different than meditation or other types of thought. That X-factor is humility. This is the most seemingly contradictory aspect of prayer and what many people dislike about the feeling of praying. "Getting down on your knees" is not about lowering your power or being a weakling, it's about showing respect for the size and grandeur of what we call existence — it's about being humble in the presence of the vastness of life, space, and sensation, and acknowledging our extremely limited understanding of what it all really means.

Being humble is very hard for many people because it makes them feel unimportant and helpless. To embrace our own smallness is not to say we're dumb or that we don't matter, but to realize how amazing it is that we exist at all in the midst of so much more. To be fully alive, we must realize how much else there is besides ourselves. We must accept how much we don't know — and how much we still have to learn — about ourselves and the whole world. Kneeling down and fully comprehending the incomprehensible is the physical act of displaying our respect for everything that isn't "us."

This type of selfless awareness contains a contradictory aspect that sets the tone for true immaterial experience. It's the feeling of power in our powerlessness. A feeling of knowing that we don't know. A feeling of gaining strength by admitting weakness. We work so hard to pump ourselves up and make ourselves believe that we know all the answers and that we have the power and strength to do anything — and we do — but the fullest version of that power comes not from our belief that we have it, but from a humbling realization that we don't.

The paradoxical nature of this concept is difficult, but it is the key to unlocking the door of spirituality in general, and it remains the single biggest reason many people don't like the idea of prayer or of spiritual pursuits in general — they feel it's taking away their own power and it requires a dismantling of the reliable day-to-day life of the material world. In fact, it's only by taking away the illusion of our own power and replacing it with a greater power — the power that comes from realizing that we don't have to know everything — that we truly realize our full potential. And this type of power doesn't require constant and exhausting efforts to hold-up and maintain, nor does it require us to endlessly convince ourselves and everyone else that we're powerful, that we know what we're doing, and that we're in control of everything.

To know that you don't know is the definition of a spiritual awakening. And keeping that realization at the front of our mind and in the core of our being informs the rest of our existence. It takes a deeper type of strength to admit to ourselves that we don't have it all figured out than to run around keeping all our plates spinning. It seems strange to think that turning yourself over to your own bewilderment would actually bring clarity, but it does. Solving this riddle is the beginning of any true spiritual journey.

Many people feel threatened or uncomfortable with this sort of gray area. They like things to be "yes" or "no," "black" or "white," and "right" or "wrong." They want to live in the "real world" that they can touch and make sense of. When things "don't make sense," they retreat. These people will have to allow themselves to fully admit that they don't know, in order to actually begin knowing and that's often too frightening of a task. It can be too painful to even imagine, after all those years of effort, simply abandoning our carefully crafted structures and stepping into the immense chasm of the uncharted and unknowable.

Many of us worked for years to build up our idea of the world and who we are in it. We've clung ever more tightly to the idea of what is true and what is false. We've toiled and schemed to get what we need to "be happy," and to gain the sense of security that comes with "figuring things out" and "making it." We do that by building a better and stronger protective shell to shield us from the painful horrors of the unknown.It can be too painful to even imagine, after all those years of effort, simply abandoning our carefully crafted structures, and stepping into the immense chasm of the uncharted and unknowable. And now, it's time to take it.

I want you to pray for your brother right now. As a gesture to your grandmother — who, if she didn't exist, neither would you. I want you to pray right now, just for the sake of challenging yourself. I want you to find a place alone, and kneel down — against all your stubborn tendencies telling you not to — and close your eyes and think of one concentrated thought: your brother.

I want you to think of your love for him. Your fear of him dying. Your feeling of powerlessness. Your feelings of anger and frustration. Your feelings of confusion. You don't need to ask to get anything. You don't need to try and fix anything. You don't need to get any answers. Just focus on every moment you've ever had with your brother. Reflect on every memory, from years ago, and even from just earlier today. Let the feelings wash over you. Let the feelings take you away from yourself. Let them bring you closer to him. Let yourself be overwhelmed by the unyielding and uncompromising emotion of him until you lose yourself in it.

Think about him more than you've ever thought about anyone before. Think about him more deeply and with more detail than you've ever thought about anything. Think about how incredible it is that you have a brother — that he exists at all. Focus on him until you feel like your soul is going to burst. Tell him in your heart and soul that you love him. Feel that love pouring out of you from all sides. Then get up and go be with him and your family. And you can tell your grandmother that you prayed for your brother.

Love,
Andrew W.K.


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155 comments
vn0688
vn0688

Welp, People in the comments are missing the point yet again... 

This is not an article meant to promote religion or cram it down someones throat, nor should it be taken as an opportunity to prove ones life style or view as superior to anothers. This is a summary/study of the psychological importance of a certain behavior, and the good that it is capable of for a large majority of people... and its written so well that I would consider it almost academic. it's not about "This is the way to deal with your problems" its about "Do what you can to do the most Good". It is almost humorous that this article actually creates a divide and proves its legitimacy not between religion and atheism, but amongst personality types. 

Religion at its core is not, and should not be, about imposing your thoughts and beliefs on others. All of the major religions of the world(buddhism, christianity, etc.) came to be from the intent to live a better and more complete life. Whether the plethora of variants that evolved after the fact retain this mentality or not, and whether their current versions are good for our world society, is a completely different argument altogether. One should remember that not all peoples are the same, and not all people that follow a given religion have the same beliefs. 

Atheism is at its core, the result of a group coming to their own enlightened conclusion through their own power. This is the individual finding gratification and empowerment through the pursuit of knowledge rather than religion, not in spite of it. It is not intended as a pursuit to disprove the existence of deities, and if it were, it would be very futile to try and disprove the existence of something as simple and omnipresent as a thought. 

Those that force a god or a belief onto another are no different from those that would seek out a god or belief and condemn it as a waste of time, Those that would demand others believe what they believe, are the same as those that would demand others DON'T believe what they don't believe. They are all negative human actions that seek self legitimization through the negative manipulation of others, and in the long run, will always hurt your cause no matter which side of the issue you take. Thats what AWK fights the good fight for... a more positive society.

Those of you that want to dismiss everything written in AWK's article as superstitious religious BS should try to understand that Understanding is all he is asking for. 

freewingz777
freewingz777

What if his brother had asked to pray for him?

pffreese
pffreese

I'm not a very religious person though I was brought up Catholic.  Early 2013 I was diagnosed with a brain tumor.  I don't believe I'd still be here a year and a half later if it hadn't been for the prayers of others of strong religious faith.  I hardly pray but knowing that others have been gave me the will and courage to face this challenge - knowing there were people in my corner.  I say whatever their beliefs, anything they want to do to help lift the spirit, bring it on.  I welcomed whatever people wanted to do to help; cooking, cleaning, praying, music, financial support, helping through day to day life; I took all the help anyone wanted to offer.

sang_froid
sang_froid

Many of the comments have already expressed some of my feelings but no one mentioned the second paragraph. The X-factor is humility? What kind of BS is that? I see absolutely no humility in all the prayers put out by evangelists, preachers and many priests. They say they are praying for your so called souls but all they are trying to do is get you to put out in the collection basket. There is no humility in prayer, only an expression of superiority - my god will listen to my prayers and make you better?


Then you say "Getting down on your knees" is ... about showing respect for the size and grandeur of what we call existence. I show respect for the size and grandeur of the universe and our existence by getting out in nature, hiking the trails, gazing at the stars, enjoying life to the fullest. I respect existence by facing it fully and living it fully.


Then you say "...it's about being humble in the presence of the vastness of life, space, and sensation,..." I don't feel humble at all. I feel proud to be a part of this vastness of life, space, and sensation and revel in it!


And finally you state " ...acknowledging our extremely limited understanding of what it all really means...." The only thing to acknowledge is our limited knowledge of life and the universe which propels us on to find as many answers as we can, KNOWING that we will NEVER understand what it all means. The only thing we know for sure is we will die. That is the final part of life and is inescapable. Once we think we understand what 'it all really means' we are doomed to a life of boredom.


Prayer is useless. Providing love and comfort is far more powerful.

lisajeaninewinett
lisajeaninewinett

Andrew's response left out what prayer might actually DO for Not Gonna Pray or his brother or anyone.  And I don't mean humbling him or them, I mean, what's it gonna do to make the cancer better???


What about the power of surrender relaxing us, what are the physiological effects of prayer?  


I think that is what Not Gonna Pray was talking about, how is prayer gonna help heal his brother on the physical plane?


Some people's spirituality is more metaphysical and responds or resonates with ethereal things like prayer, chanting, belief in energy, crystal power, the power of thought to manifest stuff.  Other people need hard reality like diet, putting the blade to the grindstone, doing the actual work.  


Not Gonna Pray was right on for himself, and Grandma was right on for herself.  We all attack  crisis in our own way, and for some, prayer is a  bit of a waste of time.  

marfknox
marfknox

Horribly condescending. 

Andrew W.K.'s solution to this poor person's problem is basically for him to redefine prayer so broadly and vaguely that he can appear to share his family's worldview, thus rendering his secular worldview invisible. In other words, 
back into the closet with you, naughty atheist!

 
http://humanistmom.blogspot.com/

dsandrade9205
dsandrade9205

I know that I am intelligent because I know that I know nothing" My favorite quote of all time. I only just heard of this Andrew W.K. guy, but he's starting to look closer to someone like Socrates than anyone I've seen.

thepourfool
thepourfool

I'm struck by how compassionate Andrew has managed to be here, in the face of a howling contradiction: here's this guy who totally misses the point - that his brother has cancer - and dwells on an attempt to get his grandmother and family to do EXACTLY what he is finding fault with them for doing. He feels that they are asking him to abandon his own beliefs, when he's doing precisely that. At best, his attitude - in a time when the world is NOT all about him -  is at best ungracious and insensitive and at worst callous and cruel. Don't pray at all and tell your grandmother you did. That's not capitulation. It's just an act of kindness. People want and need comfort and strength from their families in the face of such tragic news, not lectures and judgment. The guy is very lucky he wrote to Andrew and not to me and I applaud Andrew's wisdom and restraint.

dbippit
dbippit

Question for Andrew... Are you a Christian?? This blog has gotten me to start a conversation at my church council meeting... and that is what we were wondering as a group.

curtbenson
curtbenson

Very insightful.  For me, the same realization has made life easier.  I don't know what to believe, but I know that I don't know.  And I will continue to seek truth and understanding. 

Viola
Viola

Beautifully written! Prayer serves in an array of ways. It is not used solely for religious purposes. It's a form of meditation, connection, inner reflection, outer reflection, etc. It's a waste of energy to be angry at those who want to pray. In this case, it sounds like the real culprit of the anger this person feels, is from inaction. Respecting his family members way of dealing with this and then encouraging action would be energy better spent. The energy this person used to write the letter could have been used, doing research for his/her brother's cancer. I hope this person can focus on what really matters, instead of feeling so angry. I hope that this person can encourage his brother to be proactive in his future health decisions. I hope that this young man diagnosed with cancer will do all he can to improve the quality of his life and survive this. A healthy eating lifestyle is a good start. Lots of filtered water, dark leafy greens, veggies, some fruit (all organic), healthy fats, omega-3's, high quality protein, fish, etc. No refined, processed junk, limited carbs, adequate exercise, good sleep and high amounts of herbs/supplements suggested for his particular type of cancer. I also hope the writer makes amends to his grandmother and rest of his family. The last thing the brother and the family needs is more stress. It is proven that stress will only accelerate the cancer and suppress the immune system. I hope this person learns to express in a way that does not cause further fighting and in some cases, it's just necessary to not share negative opinions at all. I'm an atheist, and I too get angered when people focus all their energy on prayer without action. Also, to believe "God" would answer prayers based on a bunch of people praying doesn't make sense to me. Does this mean God plays favoritism? So all the children that die a miserable death from starvation or malaria do so because they do not have a team of "prayer warriors"? All human beings are valuable. Why would God chose to spare someone's life because a lot of people are praying for them? Aren't there hundreds of thousands that deserve equally to be "spared"?  In the context I use prayer is different than how many religious people use prayer. To each there own.

shannonstoney
shannonstoney

I agree that prayer is absolutely ineffectual.  I know so many people who prayed and prayed, and their family member or friend died anyway. It is clear that nobody is listening. But if it makes people feel better to do it, there's no harm in it I guess. I say leave people alone who are praying, but you don't have to pray yourself.  Eventually people may figure out that it doesn't work; in the meantime, let them do whatever they want.


That said, I think the belief that people live or die b/c God decides just adds to the burden of grief, especially if the dying person is a child or young person. You have to ask, "Why did God allow/cause this person to die?"  If you don't have this burdensome belief, you are sad, even devastated, but you don't have the added burden of explaining god to yourself and others.

erkiemail
erkiemail

This response reminds me of what Zadie Smith wrote in her essay collection, Changing My Mind, about the work of another wise author, David Foster Wallace: 

"The real mystery and magic lies in those quasi-mystical moments, portraits of extreme focus and total relinquishment. We might feel more comfortable calling this 'meditation,' but I believe the right word is in fact prayer [...] It’s true that this is prayer unmoored, without its usual object -- God -- but it is still focused, self-forgetful, and moving in an outward direction toward the unfathomableIt is the L word, at work in the world."

Sandy Duncan
Sandy Duncan

Praying at fictional constructs is for dumbfucks.

Drew Edward Ramsauer
Drew Edward Ramsauer

WOW. THANK YOU FOR POSTING. Came to the same conclusion through trial and error basically. Years of misery remedied by recognizing I know nothing

mpkinney
mpkinney

Much respect for this insightful answer.

sheaeugene
sheaeugene

"We need to actively help"...

What exactly does this mean? Should his brother sharpen a scalpel and start cutting? Or would that harm more than help? If the guy is going to lose his brother to cancer, who really needs help, they guy about to die or the guy that has to live through the loss. What kind of help can anyone give a person who is grieving the loss of someone, if that someone is ultimately just an instance of mechanica , a material soul-less clump of bug food. If all of the profuse arguments against a spiritual dimension are even close to accurate then all of this is meaningless and purposeless and hardly worth getting so bent out of shape over - grow up. The dude is going to die, and so are you - so what. Honestly... so what. If there is any answer it is not going to be found by such stubborn minds

shipofthesun
shipofthesun

Soooo, hows the power of prayer doing in the medical world? Regrown any limbs lately? Stopped Ebola? No? Well, that's because it's a dialogue between you and yourself.

Partypartypartyparty
Partypartypartyparty

Wow lots of people angry in these comments. You people need to learn to party.

CateM
CateM

Thank you Andrew for such a beautiful way of being in prayer - I've done this most of my life and am happy that I could read someone put it in clear thoughts on paper to affirm the way I've sought to pray. I struggled with this for a long time, as my family were vocal in letting me know my style was not real prayer.  You've given me the ability to see what I've been doing, was.  And yes, I've learnt that life is amazing hues of grey, not black and white as some people feel. And that until we can be at peace with not knowing, we will not fully be at peace.  I could see in your writing, your desire to respect other peoples beliefs about God or a magnitude that others may feel is something more than themselves, but they may not feel sure if that necessarily translates to something higher in their knowledge.  Thank you for defining humility in such a beautiful way - I didn't appreciate how much strength and love was reflected in humility and how powerful people are when they are coming from that way of being, when dealing with others.   Again it encourages me to cherish that, rather than try to be the opposite.  Thank you for sharing your views and experiences.  It is lovely that you exist and share the wisdom that you see.  I understand some will criticise or claim you write in a way that they feel is without.  I've noticed most writers on the internet are attacked by someone, sometime. I guess people are hurting in their heart and need to vent it in some way at someone.  I hope you mostly receive support in attempting to help others that request help from you, when they have a time of need or support. I thank you for giving me an experience of seeing something more in Prayer and Humility. My beautiful 22 yr old son, forwarded the link for me to have a look at.  I'm glad he did, and I'm glad men like you exist to give me son 'male role models' who operate for the good of others and give young men ways of thinking and dealing with their struggles.

stefannikola
stefannikola

First of all, that's an awfully sexy Jesus in that picture at the beginning of your blog. We need more sexy Jesus pictures! Anyway, I agree that prayer is thought, but I disagree that it is like meditation. They are different. That's why you say the phrase "prayer and meditation." They are two different things. Concerning humility, well, it is not the sole (or soul, ha ha ha) province of prayer. You can be humble anytime, anywhere. You're humble when you wait patiently for someone to pull out of a parking space or for someone to walk across the street because what you want to do is to go straight through. But you don't. You become aware you are not the only one on the road and that other cars and pedestrians use the road, too. The situation is bigger than you. So, you don't egotistically go barreling down the road. That's humility, and no prayer or meditation are involved. Humility is an action. It's something you engage in. It's a part of life. It is not reserved for religious or spiritual people alone. In your blog, you are advocating humility more than prayer. I agree with humility and its place and importance in life, but you don't have to pray to be humble. I'm turned off by this entry in your blog because when some people (and you are doing it here) don't understand their emotions, then they mystify them and say that it's spirituality. The admission and awareness that we don't know it all can all be adequately explained in psychological terms without any supernatural references at all. We are highly trained in our educations from Pre-K to 12 and beyond for the intellectual side of the brain but virtually nothing for the emotional side. So, emotions remain mysterious and difficult throughout many people's lives. Hence, these people in their ignorance are taking their uncomfortable emotions and overwhelming emotions and hard-to-understand emotions and ascribing spiritual connotations to what they feel and don't understand and can't handle. Again this spiritual leap is out of their ignorance of what their emotions are and of how to deal with them effectively. No need for a supernatural realm to explain emotions and feelings. They are quite mundane in their creation in our minds and their manifestations in our bodies and actions and language. Emotions are fascinating, interesting, amazing, powerful, motivating, and quite mundane. No need to mystify them and contribute more emotional ignorance into the world by assigning them supernatural significance. What I don't like most about your blog entry is its tone. You're friendly enough, but you're assuming that unless you pray, then you're not engaging in humility, you don't know how to handle your smallness in the great scheme of things, you don't know how to handle powerlessness, and you don't know how to identify and be with your emotions. That's just not true.

Ted Cantu
Ted Cantu

Im a little bummed out lately with VV

deneteus
deneteus

Praying is a form of bargaining (Andrew should know something about some Kübler-Ross) 


And none of what he did fixed anything. He just basically told him you don't know what you are talking about. You are confused. Pray to your brother. Somebody doesn't understand the meaning of the word prayer. And its pretty sad that this is considered an answer. It doesn't answer anything. You basically told him he was wrong for wanting to actually help instead of waiting on some divine ethereal infinity that we cannot understand.

Nobody knows everything but that shouldn't stop them from finding out what they don't know. Laying down and expecting some infinite unknown to solve your problems is the same as giving it all up to fate. You are tricking those people into thinking they are actually participating in helping when they are really doing jack shit. Nothing pisses me off more than someone who is condescending to someone who is trying to come up with a solution rather than letting time fly by and swallow everything up. If the rest of his family don't have the IQ to under stand what is really happening then they need to get some balls and go learn something about what is happening. At that point they can decide how much they can actually do and if they can't do anything but be there then that's better than nothing but they should at least fully understand the extent of their helping. 

Hellllo
Hellllo

@dbippit His thoughts seem to stem from Buddhist thinking, if you ask me.

lyriaz
lyriaz

@dbippit Someone who believes in sending positivity into the universe, who believes in praying, who believes that thought creates reality... what makes you think that person should be a Christian? Prayer, positivity, and faith are not categorically Christian ideas. Religions should not claim anything as their own.

ItsMsDarcy
ItsMsDarcy

@TheRealEsel You're welcome! I'm frankly pretty wishy-washy on matters spiritual, and found it really thought-provoking.

piltdown1
piltdown1

@shannonstoney Prayer is only ineffectual if you pray for "things" outside of the personal psyche. At best prayer for material outcomes has about the same impact as a placebo effect, and usually it is only associative (i.e. "I prayed and he got better" or "I prayed and I won the lottery" which ignores all those cases of people who prayed -which likely includes most lottery players- who didn't win the lottery).


Prayer can bring acceptance of the state of things that one can't control, or encourage one to to the best one can(i.e. "humanly possible") to first deal with things. That includes going to the doctor, researching all know treatments, making rational and not emotional judgements). 


One doesn't need to believe in a supernatural power to pray -as a form of meditation it can bring inner clarity, be a means of playing out mentally different scenarios without outside disruptions. It can be a time of reflection (which means looking back on oneself as others might see you). Any scientist will tell you that they don't know everything about the Universe…but they don't substitute that lack of knowledge with "that means that anything can happen". One thing that we do know is that our tenure on earth as material beings will come to an end. That's part of life.


One point that I might make is that the "one your knees" submission is not necessary and I find it a bit like the feudal form of submission before a Prince or King. The Natural World is not impacted in the least by such fealty. Sufis got on the bad side of other Muslims by stating that they were constantly in a "place of prayer" in all acts and at all times in their lives…and thus didn't have to undertake the Seven Daily Prayer ritual toward Mecca that most other Muslims participate in. In fact, many find that "submissive prayer" or "collective prayer" is actually disruptive to the state of finding the quietude necessary to find inner strength and enlightenment.

SuperFan
SuperFan

Wow... That's it?  I thought that was the best explanation and solution to a person's problem that I have ever heard and you come up with Dumbf**ks?  



mike
mike

It's almost as stupid as this comment; but you beat it hands down. Congratulations. Every thought you'll ever have is based upon a fictional construct, unless somehow you've actually figured out everything that everyone is still working on, and will be forever. What's the point in downing someone else and their approach to life? It doesn't make your fictional construct of reality any more real, and it really only offers a place for someone to pretend that they're right...So yeah praying to fictional constructs is for dumbfucks...but I can't tell the difference between your comment and that which you despise. Who knows I don't have it figured out; but I like the version where people are interesting and respected over the fuck all of them approach. Ever thought about law enforcement, or maybe banking?

OpenYourEyes
OpenYourEyes

@deneteus Your response comes off as really ignorant. The rest of their family has a different way of coping with the diagnosis, but that doesn't mean they have lower IQ's. I live in Texas which is full of religious folk. Does that mean I'm automatically smarter than all of them because I don't believe? Hell no! You have a lot to learn if you still judge people's intellect based on what they put their faith in.

1rstwolfhound
1rstwolfhound

@deneteus  OK! Let's say you are correct. His family is doing no good by praying. But he is helping to heal his brother by stirring up trouble with the rest of his family. What was it you said he was accomplishing for his beloved brother?

matt_zach
matt_zach

@deneteus You say the people who are condescending really piss you off, yet your entire response is condescending. You put yourself on this platform of higher than average intelligence, saying that his family doesn't have the IQ to "under stand" [SIC] what is really happening. Get over yourself.

buelldawg
buelldawg

@bitmaelstrom Osteens have done that with religion in general. Just be positive bs they spew.

buelldawg
buelldawg

@bitmaelstrom I thought Andrew is making prayer a very trite thing. Not what the grandmother was meaning. Who is he praying to?

deneteus
deneteus

@OpenYourEyes The whole world is full of religious folk but that doesn't mean that all of them have any common fucking sense. I'll take a room full of decent folk who think through situations rationally over religious zealots any fucking day. You can be there for someone without having to throw Jesus at somebody can't ya?

deneteus
deneteus

@1rstwolfhound @deneteus His family is doing no good if all they are doing is praying an picking a religious rock to hide behind rather than saying hey lets do what we can and help out. If they were good Christians they wouldn't attack their own damn relative. There is a such a thing as agree to disagree and move on. But anytime something bad happens there always has to be some kind of factions. 


Leviticus 19:18
"'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.


1 John 3:17
But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?


deneteus
deneteus

@matt_zach @deneteus In some cases its true. Especially with older adults. They have a hard time processing their own lives, less alone the lives of others. When you have relatives arguing with the doctors because they don't understand whats going on then you can tell me something about what I know. 

bitmaelstrom
bitmaelstrom

@buelldawg --by the =mere thought= of prayer. There's a chance that guy will listen to AWK.

bitmaelstrom
bitmaelstrom

@buelldawg Ah, but Osteen would appear to be undermining Christianity (for Christians). AWK is dealing with a guy who's enraged--

1rstwolfhound
1rstwolfhound

@deneteus @OpenYourEyes  So the family is now "THROWING" Jesus at him, and that's a bad thing, but he is kindheartedly advising them Atheism is what will really help his brother, and that's a good thing? This is why people in prisons, and asylums should not have access to the www. They simply don't know right from wrong. No moral compass at all. 

buelldawg
buelldawg

@bitmaelstrom I suppose you are right about that. Andrew is not preaching. He probably ticked the guy off more. \U0001f62e

deneteus
deneteus

@1rstwolfhound What he is saying is prayer isn't going to help him which I can understand his sentiment completely. You can agree to disagree and move on. has nothing to do with prisons and asylums. Deflecting the conversation doesn't change the situation.

You don't need religion to have morals. If you can't determine right from wrong then you lack empathy, not religion.



bitmaelstrom
bitmaelstrom

@buelldawg It's really good. This is how anti-God/religion people have become. The concept of prayer is anathema.

buelldawg
buelldawg

@bitmaelstrom yes, which is probably why this other person told the person seeking prayers that she was sending thoughts.

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