Scientology Apocalypse! Mark Bunker and Marty Rathbun Reveal Their Ties

MarkBunker.jpg
Wise Beard Man makes a wild move
For Scientology watchers, a stunning development tonight that, not so long ago, we can hardly imagine happening.

Mark Bunker, dean of the old time Scientology critics, has written a guest post on Marty Rathbun's blog this evening -- well, I would be hardly more surprised if a Michael Wolff editorial appeared in tomorrow's Wall Street Journal with a glowing preface by Rupert Murdoch.

Rathbun, who not so many years ago was charged with keeping tabs on critics like Bunker in his role as one of the highest executives in Scientology, is well aware what a surprising turn this is:

Whatever Mark Bunker's views, and whatever I may think of them, Mark Bunker is a decent, honest guy.

Rathbun, as inspector general of the Religious Technology Center, answered only to Scientology's ultimate leader, David Miscavige. As we've pointed out numerous times before, Rathbun was an enforcer, a fixer, and went after Scientology's perceived enemies seemingly with glee. But in 2004 he left the organization and then two years ago began suddenly speaking out against Miscavige at his blog, "Moving On Up a Little Higher."

Tonight, we learn the surprising secret that when Rathbun needed help setting up his blog, he received that help from an unlikely source: Mark Bunker.

(I am having deja vu: 12 years ago, when I wrote about Tory Christman leaving Scientology, what set her on the road to defection was in part some helpful tech advice from Operation Clambake operator Andreas Heldal-Lund. The web: its power is amazing.)

Bunker is well known as Wise Beard Man, the calm, rational, and most influential of old time Scientology critics, who famously counseled Anonymous to rein in some of its excesses.

As Rathbun points out, he encountered Bunker at protests in Florida over the death of Lisa McPherson, and even then had respect for Bunker's professionalism. But still, it's hard to see these two as bosom buddies.

Rathbun is reviled by many in the Anonymous movement who believe he is too tainted by his time as Scientology's enforcer to take his anti-Scientology efforts seriously today.

And besides, Rathbun may be out of the official church, but he still considers himself a Scientologist. His blog is as much about rescuing L. Ron Hubbard from the organization he created as it is about tearing down Miscavige. Bunker and other old time critics take apart Hubbard and his "technology" as much as they do the church itself. How could these two be anything but enemies?

We'll let Bunker explain:

I don't agree with everything Marty writes but I enjoy reading what he has to say and I've learned a lot from following his posts. I'm also indebted to him for exposing a lot of newsworthy stories since this blog launched. It's seems like virtually every day there's some tidbit that rumbles the ground at [Scientology's secretive California headquarters] the Int Base. Enough tremors keep happening and he might actually shatter the locks on the doors and free people like [president of the Church of Scientology International] Heber Jentzsch from captivity.

I've been watching Scientology for a long time, and there's one thing I know for sure: Mark Bunker does not make a statement like that lightly. You can almost feel the locks at Int Base loosening.

But Bunker knows the criticisms of Rathbun and Mike Rinder, another former high-ranking official who defected in 2007:

There are many critics of Scientology who can't forgive Mike and Marty for their actions while in Scientology. I'm sure there are many Scientologists who will never forgive me for speaking out against Scientology. I'd rather look past that black and white attitude and find a way to communicate and curb the abuses that brought Bob Minton into this fight to begin with and that are now being hurled against people like Mike and Marty.

There's much more in the statement, as well as a plug for Bunker's documentary, which he's making with the help of donations. Sure, posting at Rathbun's blog is a smart move for Bunker, who could use the exposure to Rathbun's audience and the funds that might bring. But as the two now reveal, it was Bunker who helped Rathbun two years ago to get his blog going in a way that enabled it to grow.

I called Rathbun tonight to ask him about it. "I didn't even know what a blog was. I had a one-page web page, and a lot of people would tell me it's a piece of shit. Then Mark Bunker contacted me and helped me turn it into a blog," he said.

"Mark Bunker is a straight ahead guy. He's the guy that always counsels reason and has really stayed focused on abuse in the church. And he hasn't been trashing scripture and trashing tech. He really hasn't been trashing LRH," Rathbun continued. I asked him if he didn't think people would be surprised to see that they had joined forces.

"I don't think it should be that much of a surprise. He's been really focused on behavior and how the cult trashes people. He's a stand-up guy," he answered.

I also talked to the Beard Man tonight and asked him about his big secret, that he'd helped Rathbun get his blog going. "I kept my involvement secret because I didn't want to scare away Scientologists who might be frightened by my involvement at all," he said.

And why did he reach out to offer Rathbun his technical expertise? "Really, I wanted to read what he had to say," he answered.

(He did, by the way, think of Tory Christman's interaction with Andreas Heldal-Lund, he told me. "I thought, here's a way I can help.")

As for those who might question his showing unity with Rathbun in tonight's editorial, he said: "I think Marty's struck an effective blow at Miscavige's regime, and I think he should be applauded for telling the truth as he sees it. And if I'm to be honest with myself and say that I support people's right to believe in Scientology, then I have to support people like Marty who are trying to make a change. I don't believe in the tech myself, and I think Hubbard is more responsible for problems in Scientology than people like Marty will ever confront, but I think it's a process...It could take years to peel away the levels of this organization."

Bunker added that he's always supported the "Free Zone," another splinter group that adheres to Hubbard's technology while remaining out of the official church.

"I think Marty has revealed a lot of important stuff that may not be as much as some critics like, but I'm appreciative of everything that he and Rinder and other people at the site have done already," he added.

As always, we'll be looking forward to reactions from our readers, who will no doubt weigh in on whether they were surprised to see this development, and what it means for Scientology watchers and Scientology itself.



tortega@villagevoice.com | @VoiceTonyO

Click here to see all recent Scientology coverage at the Voice

Keep up on all of our New York news coverage at this blog, Runnin' Scared

Tony Ortega is the editor-in-chief of The Village Voice. Since 1995, he's been writing about Scientology at several publications. Among his other stories about L. Ron Hubbard's organization:

The Larry Wollersheim Saga -- Scientology Finally Pays For Its Fraud
The Tory Bezazian (Christman) Story -- How the Internet Saved A Scientologist From Herself
The Jason Beghe Defection -- A Scientology Celebrity Goes Rogue
The Robert Cipriano Case -- A Hellacious Example of Fair Game
The Paul Haggis Ultimatum -- The 'Crash' Director Tells Scientology to Shove It
The Marc Headley Escape -- 'Tom Cruise Told Me to Talk to a Bottle'
The Aaron Saxton Accusation -- Australia turns up the heat on Scientology
The Jefferson Hawkins Stipulation -- Scientology's former PR genius comes clean
The Daniel Montalvo Double-Cross -- Scientology lures a young defector into a trap
A Church Myth Debunked -- Scientology and Proposition 8
Daniel Montalvo Strikes Back -- Scientology Hit with Stunning Child-Labor Lawsuits
When Scientologists Attack -- The Marty Rathbun Intimidation
A Scientologist Excommunicated -- The Michael Fairman SP Declaration
The Richard Leiby Operation -- Investigating a reporter's divorce to shut him up
The Hugh Urban Investigation -- An academic takes a harsh look at Scientology's past
Giovanni Ribisi as David Koresh -- A precedent for a Scientology-Branch Davidian link
Janet Reitman's Inside Scientology -- A masterful telling of Scientology's history
The Western Spy Network Revealed? -- Marty Rathbun ups the ante on David Miscavige
Scientology's Enemies List -- Are You On It?
Inside Inside Scientology -- An interview with author Janet Reitman
Scientology and the Nation of Islam -- Holy Doctrinal Mashup, Batman!
Scientologists -- How Many of Them Are There, Anyway?
Roger Weller's Wild Ride -- Scientology When it was Hip
The Marc Headley Infiltration -- A Scientology Spying Operation Revealed
Placido Domingo Jr: Scientology's Retaliation is "Scary and Pathetic"
An Interview with Nancy Many, Former Scientology Spy


My Voice Nation Help
200 comments
sugarplumfairy32
sugarplumfairy32

I'm so glad this popped up tonight and I got to read it.. Mark is so non- judgmental.. I should learn from him..

scott
scott

What I think is remarkable is that otherwise (seemingly) intelligent people, including the author of this Opinion Article, lower themselves to the use of 'ad hominens' as their primary focus of attack and then draw the invalid inference that whatever the target touched is equally pernicious.

Of course, this is the most dishonest form of 'argumentation', and it doesn't prove anything ... but it does sell papers, or web hits.

All of this stuff about what Marty Rathbun did, or Mark Bunker did, or Lafayette Ronald Hubbard did, or David Miscavige did are rather fascinating as historical information.

But, their various shenanigans haven't got even a little bit to do with whether the Dianetics and Scientology have usefulness for the individual.  And, the only person who can decide that is the particular individual.  And, the only way to decide that is to read it.   Yourself. 

The books of Dianetics and Scientology (even the original versions as they existed before David Miscavige altered them) are widely available.  No one needs to believe David Miscavige, Marth Rathbun, Mark Bunker, Tony Ortega, Rupert Murdoch, Bill Gates, Tom Cruise, John Travolta, Captain Crunch the Man in the Moon ... or me ... about what Scientology or Dianetics can, or cannot, do for them.  And, it doesn't make even a slight difference what any of these people say about Scientology or Dianetics.  All that matters is what the individual reads and understands for themselves.  Anyone who tries to stop anyone else from reading, studying and understanding what Scientology or Dianetics says (or any thing else, for that matter) and making their own individual minds up about it, is an evil and dangerous person who should be avoided and shunned for what they are.

Joe Lynn
Joe Lynn

This is a bit of typical misdirection.  It's not about Scientology books or tapes or whether people read them or even 'use' them.   It's about the Scientology Organization and that it's a criminal organization that abuses people violates the law of the land and has done so for more than 50 years.  And, it's not about 'shunning' Scientologists, or, even the organization, but about prosecuting the organization for its crimes.

The books and tapes and 'philosophy' of Scientology are only relevant to that issue as far as they constitute a criminal 'instruction manual' and specifically mandate criminal activity, which some elements do.   Of course, much of the most immediately relevant and pernicious parts are hidden from the general public as 'classified', but, even some of that has leaked out or been seized before.   So far Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder have further exposed some documents, although they've done so in a manner that makes them worthless as evidence, except to suggest that further investigation by police agencies is necessary.

And, it's not about even 'shunning' David Miscavige, Marty Rathbun or Mike Rinder or any other current or former officers of the Scientology Organization; it's about whether they continue to participate and collude in criminal activity by that organization, including criminal conspiracy to obstruct justice by helping to hide evidence of crime.

If you want to 'practice' Scientology, that's fine with me, as long as you *don't* 'apply' those parts of the 'Applied Religious Philosophy' that contribute to the criminal conspiracy.

donnie harold harris
donnie harold harris

I once felt a cool breeze ,while sitting on a front porch that made me feel content.I walked next store to your porch and felt that same cool breeze and felt less like my self.Same air same wind almost same location. Scientology is the air dianetics is the breeze,you are the location.There for only you decide if it works for you based on your inner self.Dianetics or Scientology are of less important ,and in fact are not needed for you to be you.Unless of course you decide them to be.

Joe Lynn
Joe Lynn

I once had a whiff of something rotting off in the underbrush.  When I went to look I was attacked by zombies chanting 'Ron is Good! Ron Is Good! Scientology Works!'

I escaped to the toolshed where I was faced with hissing Sea Orgers guarding a nest of pods resembling my family and friends.

When I called 911, I was told 'Scientology is a recognized Religion and therefore we will not hear any such bigotry and, by the way, what are your crimes?'

Finally, I escaped to the woods and met a squirrel who told me that Marty Rathbun had labeled him as suppressive because he didn't recognize the power of his opinionleadership.

At which point I woke up and laughed my ass off.

Joe Lynn

Joe Lynn
Joe Lynn

Let me ask a question nobody seems to be asking.  My involvement with Scientology (no, I was never a 'member') dates back 15 years at least.  At that time it was considered at the very least impolite to to demand that someone identify themselves to the rabid dogs of Marty and Mike's thugs by identifying themselves by name.  The general theory was;   'they'll find out if they try, but, make them *pay* for it'.

To 'out' someone was considered not only bad form; it was anathema.

Jump 15 years forward and we have the 'Independents', and their 'leader' Marty Rathbun who seems obsessed with pushing people to identify themselves.

Why?  Marketing?

Or, could it be that the same people who used to spend thousands 'finding the who' are behind Marty the Wrathbunz?  :)

It's cheaper to just *tell* people 'you can't speak unless you paint a target on your back'.

At the very least, it'll limit the number of people willing to speak out.

Naturally, there are good reasons to identify yourself.  In my case, there are really none, but, it's pointless to avoid it.  My name is Joe Lynn.  Scientology has known that since 1998.  In 1997 they only knew me as Zinjifar, which they included in the 'Clam Nanny' list.  But, they didn't know my *name* till around March of '98, when they began stalking my home.

If you want to claim to have been somewhere or seen something or done something, it can be important to say your name.   If you're merely expressing an opinion (which is pretty much all I do,) it's irrelevant.  Nobody knows Joe Lynn *or* Zinjifar, except as a long term voice.

Anything else about me is pretty much irrelevant.  I have no special or secret knowledge; I have opininions.

Why is Marty so insistent on 'names'??  Who else would be so desperate to discover them? 

Theoracle
Theoracle

P.S.  "To 'out' someone was considered not only bad form; it was anathema."

That was yesterdays ago.  I was outed on ESMB twice and it was all much ado about nothing.  Still is.  The outer was made to take it down after a few requests from different folk. She just moved the outing process over to youtube. After she commented "That felt good while it lasted.."

Hey, were you banned from ESMB?  I'm thinking we should start a EX ESMB forum.

Theoracle
Theoracle

You, me and Alanzo could be moderators.

Nozeno49
Nozeno49

Alanzo's gone straight.

No more goofy cults for him.

Meishayuri
Meishayuri

This is what I read from this post: blahblah blah paranoid delusion blah blah blah blahblah Marty and Mike blah blah delusion blah blah blah blahblah me, me, me, me, blah blah blah Scientology blah blah Hate Marty Rathbun delusion blah blah blah blah blah blahblah me blah blah blah.

Start a blog.  This is just rambling, rabid, paranoia with a side of delusional and creepy. 

Theoracle
Theoracle

Joe can you go through the usual red tape and start your own blog?  You are using this one to post your autobiography, investigative results, opinions, hallucinations, suspicions, accusations, reprimands and insults.  That is a lot to squeeze into comment boxes on someone else's blog. Making it all about you via comment boxes is going to be an unattainable goal.  Even Tony O uses this area to spotlight OTHERS and their lives.

Spark
Spark

I would say that scientology murdered Lisa Mcphearson.  AND Rathbun admitted he destroyed evidence about that case.  Yet theoracle says "thousands" of people trust him. lol  That's about as reliable a statement as the cult claim of 8 million members.

And @ Sneakster:  Where's your dox about Shelley Miscavige?  You're the one who constantly demanding proof so I'd like to see your proof to the claims you made here.  Or is that something Marty told you?  If so I wonder if you demanded dox from him?  Hmmmm?

Meishayuri
Meishayuri

I am demanding docs and evidence in the form of links and citations. So bring it on.  McPhearson's information is readily available on the internet.  Support claims against Marty via appropriate and reliable sources using citations via link, please.

Theoracle
Theoracle

Rathbun has admitted a lot. And yes, that is why he is trusted. What have you owned up to?

Joe Lynn
Joe Lynn

Marty admitted to late registration to keep the cop from demanding to look in the trunk, where the body was :)  Clever litlt clam!

Theoracle
Theoracle

Oh, let me guess! OTHER PEOPLES MISTAKES.

Joe Lynn
Joe Lynn

I'm sure I'll appreciate Mark Bunker's movie as I've appreciated his earlier work.  That's not to say that I'm not also worried that considerations about not offending the notoriously aggressively victimized Pro-Scientology lobby may result in a final product that is castrated or even directly misleading.  That's always a risk.

But, what I really want is a nice solid RICO prosecution that results in seizure of Scientology records and sworn testimony by witnesses who are *not* allowed to sell a 'gradiently' Acceptable Truth, as Scientologists are wont to do.  Yes, I'd enjoy hearing Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder on a witness stand too. 

But, that's my dream.  One movie will not expose Scientology, even if it's honest.  A good RICO prosecution will result in material suitable for movies and novels and scholarly treatises in the thousands and have the advantage of actually *stopping* the abuse.

Does anybody think Marty Rathbun wants that?

Theoracle
Theoracle

And the "anonymous" folk obsessed with the  anti anti anti destroy destroy destroy efforts are in the same fanatical bag as the Sea Org members who will do anything to keep the front doors open to the church.  How trustworthy is any of that?  Get real!!   Both of those groups are fanatics. 

Theoracle
Theoracle

I don't know who, (or what) , thinks "Marty and Mike are not trusted".  They are trusted by thousands, not only in the U.S. but planet wide. And they are trusted because they always have their cards on the table and are open about what game they are playing and which side they are on. They use their real names, faces, words to fully and openly invest overtly in social intercourse. They have contact telephone numbers and address'.  They throw themselves into the game as who they are and what they are. All they have been doing since they left the Church is conducting a noisy investigation with facts and witness' and documentation to prove their claims.  As far "not trusting someone because of their beliefs",  this suggests some think we should all be thinking the same thoughts otherwise we have weak links. That type of thinking in itself I find very dangerous.  The day we see a society operating like that we will have total mind control and a civilization of slaves.  That is an unattainable goal here on Earth.

Joe Lynn
Joe Lynn

Maybe we're talking about different people.  I watched (what I could see) of Marty Rathbun's and Mike Rinder's activities since 1995.  What I saw was prevarication, weaselwordism and outright lies.  Now I've watched them since their 'rebirth' as Scientology Saviors, and, what I've seen was prevarication, weaselwordism and outright lies.

Did I see the 'crimes'?  Of course not.  That's what makes a criminal conspiracy so handy; you can hide the evidence.

Now you mention their 'noisy investigations', but, you may have a misunderstood word on that, since 'noisy investigation' is exactly the harassment that Marty whines about.

Cards on the table?  Heh.   Here's Marty's calling card:----------------------martyrathbun09 | July 29, 2011 at 3:58 pm

"He’s a card-carrying OSA agent. I am surprised there is anyone ignorant enough to not have puzzled that out by now."------------------------That's speaking about me, Joe Lynn.  And yes, that is my real name :)

Theoracle
Theoracle

Joe, There are plenty of people out here working wittingly, and unwittingly for OSA.  People tearing down the Freezone work for OSA.  People tearing down freezone auditors are working OSA.  People who attack people who leave the Church, and speak out, are working for OSA. There is one person floating around out here that instantly attacks anyone coming out of the Sea Org. Yet she's family over there on ESMB. She is working for OSA.  "Working for OSA'  or a "Card carrying OSA" defines people who seem to have the program OSA has. It is a phrase used to explain anyone working wittingly or unwittingly for OSA.  Hey, still using that great recipe!  I see you are still around and arguing. Isn't it fun?  Glad I found you over here. We can always hook up and fight a little!  lv T.O.

Meishayuri
Meishayuri

So?  Do you want some kind of duplication on that?  Perhaps what you really need is some kind of treatment for your paranoia and your eerie fascination with Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder.  It's not healthy and very creepy.

BTs2Free
BTs2Free

I have no problem with anyone's beliefs as long as they aren't harmful to others when put into practice. 

OTOH, what I've seen happening over the last couple of years since the arrival of Marty and Mike on the scene, including Marty's blog, is that it's all become "David Miscavige's fault", and that L. Ron Hubbard had nothing to do with any of the ideas or policies that were abusive or dangerous to people. That is a complete lie and I see an attempt to try to rewrite history in relation to the mad man/con man that Hubbard really was. The Church of Scientology has an entire PR department whose job it is to rewrite Hubbard's history. Anyway, just take a look at all the documentation that's come out over the years about Hubbard's real life, not only FBI documents but from people who were very close to the man. There are entire books about the man - Piece of Blue Sky and Madman or Messiah?, etc... Hubbard himself lied about most of his life and accomplishments that have been proven lies.

Some are talking about the "good ol' days" of Scientology when the "old man" was running the show. I remember those days too back in the late 70's (a lot of people have written about those days and earlier) and there were even then Rehabilitation Project Force (conditioning camp and program for detracting or non-optimum members) running around in black, with colored arm bands to show their status within the RPF. These people weren't allowed to speak to other members outside of the RPF. They weren't allowed to see their families until they earned a Gold arm band, which in many cases took years. There's even an RPF's RPF where members aren't allowed to talk to other members even inside the RPF. Hubbard came up with this program to keep people IN and BRAINWASHED, yet with the advent of Marty and Mike, this is all becoming whitewashed.

When I wanted to leave the Int Base, I was literally held prisoner for over a year at a location on the base called OGH. Before even wanting to leave I had been sent over to OGH for about 6 months because I had discussed with someone what I thought was a great idea for a Scientology technical film trailer and David Miscavige accused me of Joking and Degrading the Tech which became the subject of an entire Int Base witch burning of me and two other people. One person was sent to the RPF and myself and another were sent over to OGH to work in the hot desert sun all day doing heavy labor and getting Sec Checks (interrogation technique on Scientology's E-Meter) to find out what our "crimes" and overts and withholds were. OGH along with the rest of the Int Base is surrounded by razor wire fences, security guards, cameras and motion detectors. There's no way to escape without getting caught or hurt. I wasn't allowed to speak to anyone else on the property except for the few people that were over at OGH with me. RTC staff would come by every once in a while to try to talk me into staying and would tell me that the reason I wanted to leave was because I had hidden crimes that I hadn't divulged. That too is covered in Scientology "Tech" that Hubbard wrote which is in HCO PL Leaving and Leaves. Essentially, Hubbard had the idea that anyone who wanted to leave Scientology had hidden "crimes" or "overts and withholds" against Scientology. Even people who complain about Scientology have hidden crimes.

My then wife and I were separated for the last 4 years of our marriage because she was promoted to RTC and sent out to Florida, Europe and even Los Angeles to be an RTC Representative. When I'd had enough and wanted to leave, she was sent up on two occasions to try to "handle" me into staying. During those two visits, we were in an auditing room with microphones and cameras, and another RTC staff member sat there while we talked. There was no way for me to talk her into leaving with me. No chance at all.

I eventually figured out how to escape and I did, and have never looked back. The escape is a whole other story.

Similar stories of mine have happened going all the way back to the very beginning of Scientology. It's NOT all David Miscavige's fault. L. Ron Hubbard was an evil mother effer and I see a real attempt here by Marty and Mike to spread disinformation on that subject.

Some are giving Marty and Mike a lot of credit on getting people who are IN Scientology OUT. Wrong. Many people have been leaving Scientology for much, much longer than Marty's blog has been around. David Miscavige himself is getting more people to leave Scientology than any of us have, including Marty and Mike. Marty OTOH is scooping up these people who have finally had enough, "salvaging" them and keeping them from fully waking up from the nightmare by feeding them MORE Scientology. That's why it's all Miscavige's fault and not Hubbard in the eyes of these guys.

A good friend of mine Tory Christman has been speaking out for years and she uses the analogy of Scientology being like the Truman Show, which is a great analogy. So tell me, would it have been a better ending of the movie if Truman, when finding the door out of his "show" had just stayed put in the doorway and not slammed it behind him like he did? Seems like a lot of people are stuck in the door out and still looking back in at the show like they miss it or something.

I hope Mark Bunker's documentary also covers some Scientology history and the man that L. Ron Hubbard really was so that it puts it all in perspective.

Meishayuri
Meishayuri

If it works for you, it works for you.  I am very sorry you went through some bad things.  I hope your life is better now and that you are enjoying it to the fullest.

BTs2Free
BTs2Free

Thank you Meisha, but I'm not sorry I went through it. It's part of who I am today and opened my eyes about a lot of things. Life was meant to be lived. If people like to pick their minds apart to find happiness, they're looking in the wrong place. The world is in front of you, not in your head or in your past. Life is naturally evolving into higher states of awareness and intelligence without the use of meters and mindfuk techniques. But a lot of people think they have to search for "the answer" when it's right there in front of their noses. 

Meishayuri
Meishayuri

I am very happy that you are happy with your life.

Theoracle
Theoracle

What I don't get is why you are complaining about the choices YOU made. I was in the Sea Org for six years and I did not agree to go work in the hot desert sun or on the RPF or to let anyone use me for their whipping boy.  I don't think DM or Hubbard are responsible for every stupid bad decision other people make. When I saw thing I didn't want to live with I moved my legs and feet towards the front door. And I didn't wait until something bad happened to me!  As soon as I saw it happening to someone else I knew if I contributed to it I was agreeing it could happen to me too!  Over 95% of the people who have joined the Sea Org got up one day and put their pants and walked out the front door.I read these stories.. "I was sent here, I was told to do this, I was this I was that..."  The first time someone yelled at me in the Sea Org I slapped him so hard in the face he spun. Get real!  You never hear people say, "I stood by and watched someone sent to the RPF and never protested. I stood by and watched others abused and caused a scene. I smacked David Miscavige for being an asshole."   That seems to be devalued in people's memory once they leave.  I don't blame David Miscavige or Hubbard for all of the people that entered that adventure and made decisions to be punished, suppressed, and mistreated.  Parents that threw their kids into that mess need to own up to it. Decision people made to be suppressed need to own up to it. The only people out here that are calling on David Miscavige to own up to his part and getting real results (because they are trusted) are Marty and Mike. All of the wining and protesting and rotten tomato throwing hasn't amounted to a hill of beans because of the lie it forwards. And that lie is that people are not responsible for the choices they make.  Get real!

BTs2Free
BTs2Free

I did get real. I finally GTFO and helped to expose a lot of the Int Base stuff you're reading about on Marty's blog today, the difference is that I was writing about it starting 11 years ago and helped people like Marc Headley decide to start speaking out about their own experiences. At the Int Base, if you think you can just walk out of there, you're dreaming. Plus, I was trying to figure out how to get my wife to leave with me and it took a while to figure out that she wasn't going to. Brainwashing and conditioning has a heavy effect on people as well, and essentially you become your own prison guard with mental restraints. On several occasions I witnessed Gold Security (Danny Dunagin, Matt Butler) physically stop a guy named Aaron (last name purposely omitted) from jumping the fence while we were over at OGH. Maureen Bolstad has already spoken about her experiences of having been physically tackled by Gold security guards and taken back when she was trying to escape. I also witnessed another guy named Bruce who had been a high up CoS executive physically restrained by several Gold Security guards from trying to leave. Theoracle must think that this is a joke. By the way, my name is John Peeler. I am not Anonymous, and I'm not selling anything either. Just telling it like it is.

Oh yeah, and if you had slapped David Miscavige in the face like you boldly say you would do had you been there, you would have 6 or 7 RTC goons jump on your ass and give you a beat down before sending you off to the RPF. You should read more about the abuses people have gone through at Int before you spout off about how tough you are and how you would have done things differently than the rest of us who were there.

JustCallMeMary
JustCallMeMary

Anyone who knows you from the internet, or has read your posts on ESMB can understand why the Sea Org did that, lol 

Guest
Guest

Just for clarification,

What would happen if you tried to escape?  I'm very curious.  I've always imagined there would be barbed wire and locked gates.  Did people make a run for it and get caught/ physically restrained? If you got tackled, could you get up and demand to talk to the police?

Thanks

Meishayuri
Meishayuri

John, it is very brave of you to come forward with your story.  Keep telling it like it is, don't ever stop.  People really need to know.

Theoracle
Theoracle

I never said that.  That was wholly manufactured by you.

Joe Lynn
Joe Lynn

Did you have some problem with saying your name?  Last time I looked, you considered anyone unwilling to do so to be beneath contempt...

Theoracle
Theoracle

Probably because I wasn't very important.

Theoracle
Theoracle

I guess that means you aren't wrapped too tight.

Theoracle
Theoracle

You just arrive to announce I am a liar?  Wow.  "Ignorant people rely on insults instead of facts."  

Theoracle
Theoracle

Neither was I ever "an officer" or put in a position to manage "lower" Org staff.  Yes, I am beginning to see some light here. It's this class system that defines one's choices? You can define me as "lower class" and unimportant. I probably wouldn't understand leaving a place like the Int base. But I did escape the East Village Police Station in New York when I was only 14.  I think I could have made it out of Hemet.  When I said I was leaving the Sea org they let me out within the hour.

Theoracle
Theoracle

Nobody ever called me "Sir". That would have been a joke.  I wasn't under real pressure or on any important lines?  Well, now that you mention it I can't ever remember feeling under pressure or important. I guess that explains a lot!

BTs2Free
BTs2Free

Hey, Theoracle, what's your name? Maybe I knew you when we were in the SO. I was at Celebrity Centre International in LA and was the President's Secretary under Karen Hollander for a while before going up to Gold. Also, I'd like to apologize for assuming that you were male. I was corrected on that by others who are familiar with your postings on ESMB. As well, were you one of those women in the SO who acted like men, had short hair and demanded to be addressed as "Mr." and "Sir" when you became an officer or dealt with lower org staff? I'm only asking because I assumed you had juevos from your tough talk. Most men, including DM won't strike a woman, so I can see now why you'd think you'd get away with slapping the dwarf in the face. Not to be sexist here, but women don't usually put up with a lot of the stuff most men will put up with. It's probably an ego thing.

BTs2Free
BTs2Free

He also says he was in the Sea Org for 6 years. Right. Maybe he was, but it was probably in a service organization as the Course Admin or Central Files away from any real pressure or important lines. I knew Commanding Officers of Cont Liason Offices who wanted to blow because of the pressure but wouldn't from fear of getting declared and losing all the friends and family they had. People like Theoracle like to talk tough but they have no skins on the wall. He's definitely not fooling those who were there.

Nozeno49
Nozeno49

John, you and I know that the only slapping Theoracle did was in his/her dreams. He may try and fool the "wogs" but he can't fool us. No no no. Uh uh <>

Nozeno49
Nozeno49

Holy hell BTs2Free, someone may ACTUALLY go Clear on that one.

TruthRevealed
TruthRevealed

Thank you Tony and Village Voice for your continual exposure of truth!!!!!

JustCallMeMary
JustCallMeMary

This movie should be supported.

Meishayuri
Meishayuri

I agree Mary.  A lot of people will benefit from the information that I have seen is contained in the film.  It should be supported.

Joe Lynn
Joe Lynn

Sight unseen?  I'd find that much easier if I didn't think it will be acceptable to Marty Rathbun.  No honest 'Knowledge Report' on Scientology could fit that bill.

JustCallMeMary
JustCallMeMary

I support the film and support Mark Bunker's efforts. I am convinced by the interviews done thus far, by the support of the people in those interviews, by the need for such an expose', that this is an important and needed documentary. Just as I believe Janet Reitman's book is important and needed, even though I did not agree with everything she posited or omitted from the book.

I have been vocal about my feeling about the book but also about my reasons for supporting it. People need to see and hear realities of scientology and the testimonies of those exes who have spoken out. It may not include all the realities, nor all the experiences, but those that it includes are enough for me. It would take 100 documentaries to demonstrate all that is so bad about scientology. I'm happy to see the first of hopefully many more to come. I am no fan of Marty and Mike but I support their efforts to get people out of the church and expose the management. of the church. I have seen with this video that we all benefit in one way or another when the 'enemy of my enemy' can join in to support a mutually beneficial project that will help expose the truth about scientology to a larger audience. If you think you can do better than Mark Bunker, then go make your own documentary.

JustCallMeMary
JustCallMeMary

Joe, 

You have every right to not support this documentary, just as I have to support it. I suggest you contact Mark and ask him or look at his site for more info on the project, which I believe he describes as a documentary on the abuses of scientology using the euphemistic effect of scientology's  'Knowledge Report' system. Karma effect, if you will. I'm lovin it!

Re; M&M , well, I think that if you spent more time digging for dox rather than demanding admissions from those who are probably not going to admit the wrongs you, I or others accuse them of, you might accomplish something more than banter and getting banned from forums.  You don't need to be so contentious. You can do better.

Theoracle
Theoracle

Paul Jay Salerno "likes" this?  He just put a post on Facebook recently under someone's page that read "Are you still sucking dicks?"   No wonder! He's over here sucking Joe's dick!

Joe Lynn
Joe Lynn

Mark can make any film he wants and say anything he wants with it.  That's how it works.  However, until I see it (and I'm sure I will) I have no idea what his 'message' will be and, considering the warm cuddles from Marty, who is not known for appreciating 'other viewpoints' I think I'll hold off on the 'support' until I do see it.

'The Enemy of My Enemy' is no guarantee of 'friendship' and, to tell you the truth, having watched and read everything Marty's put out since he went public, I'm at a loss to find anything that the 'Church' wouldn't do *itself*.   With the bare exception of calling David Miscavige some names, and, while that seems to qualify for  some as 'proof' of Marty's bona fides, it's no better an 'OSA Test' than the old 'Say Xenu' was.

Speaking of which though, Marty himself has announced the 'Call David Miscavige a name' as sufficient 'proof' of 'non OSA'.  

So, OK Marty, David Miscavige is a drooling giftzwerg with delusions of grandeur.  Does that now mean I can't be a 'card-carrying OSA agent'? :)

As for Mike Rinder; well Mike, you announced years back that you knew enough to put David Miscavige behind bars.  Time's a-wasting.  Or were you waiting for something?

Meishayuri
Meishayuri

You know, you just randomly spout things without real knowledge.  Why should anyone releasing a film be worried about Marty Rathbun's opinion?  Seriously? 

Michael Hobson
Michael Hobson

There you are again, just making stuff up, Zinj. 

Mark Bunker has given no slightest indication that acceptability to Mark Rathbun is any kind of pre-condition for the release of this film when it is complete.

Michael A. HobsonIndependent Scientologist

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