The Top 25 People Crippling Scientology

We're starting something new here at Runnin' Scared. From our underground bunker, where we keep an eye on all things Scientology, we've been stunned to see how hard things have been for the venerable church lately.

From surveys which suggest membership is dwindling, to a mass exodus that is taking loyal longtime parishioners into the open arms of an independence movement, to the unceasing efforts of Scientologists themselves to paint their own efforts in the worst possible light, this is an organization seemingly in a tailspin.

Of course, our own loyal readers know that Scientology leader David Miscavige's current headaches are nothing new and were a long time coming. From the dawn of Scientology's e-meter fever-dreams, there has always been internal strife, external criticism, and all kinds of nasty litigation when it comes to L. Ron Hubbard's creation. So who should get the credit -- and who the blame -- for the sinking morass that is Scientology today? In the coming weeks, we're doing a countdown to reveal our picks for those most responsible. Naturally, we're looking forward to your thoughts about our choices in our comments section.

First up, at #25, is a fellow we hope someday to meet. For now, however, he's something of an enigma...

The Top 25 People Crippling Scientology

#25: Xenu, Galactic Overlord

[Not sure who "Xenu" is? Please see the "Special Update" below.]

Wasn't this dude on the TV about the time L. Ron was scribbling OT III?
It's hard to blame Xenu, the mighty celestial dictator, for infesting our planet with innumerable hungry alien souls. I mean, what would you do if you were overseeing a galactic federation of planets so overpopulated, each world had something like 150 billion sentient creatures? Obviously, 75 million years ago, contraception was not well known. Or something.

Anyway, Xenu often gets a bad rap for vaporizing billions of alien beings on Teegeeack, which we call Earth today, and then inventing concepts like "Jesus Christ" to implant in their bodiless minds.

But we think it's time Xenu got more credit for all that he's done. Think about it, for about 19 years, after L. Ron Hubbard dreamed the sucker up in a pill-popping and boozy haze while sailing the Atlantic and Mediterranean in the mid-1960s, until the Los Angeles Times finally made Xenu's story public during the Larry Wollersheim trial in 1986, only high-level Scientologists even knew that the alien leader existed.

UPDATE: Ah, the beauty of a blog -- instant updating! Maybe for many of us the L.A. Times was our first glimpse of our mighty galactic hero, but I've just been reminded that one of the giants of Scientology reporting, Richard Leiby, beat the Times by five years!

From his 1981 article in the Clearwater Sun:

That was when Xemu, the evil ruler of the Galactic Confederation, concluded that the 90 - planet confederation was overpopulated. "Finally Xemu decided to take radical measures to overcome the population problem," says the material. "The planet Earth was designated as a place for executions. Beings were captured on other planets as well as on this planet and flown to locations near 10 volcanos or more on Earth. H-bombs (far more powerful than any in existence today) were dropped on the volcanoes destroying the bodies of the beings, who as thetans attached themselves to one another in clusters.

And so on. Leiby had that down cold. And he paid for it later, as we wrote about here recently. OK, end of update...

Thanks to numerous court cases, many key defections, and most importantly, the Internet, Xenu has gone from one of Scientology's most well-kept secrets to one if its most well-known icons. Today, even folks who don't know a lot about Scientology and couldn't pick Scientology leader David Miscavige out of a lineup still have a vague idea that John Travolta and Tom Cruise worship some sort of an alien tentacled lord. (Thank you, South Park!)

But it takes more than causing some snickers and giggles to make this formidable list, and so we'll lay out now what it is about Xenu that has given Scientology a hard time.

For this Scientology watcher, there's almost nothing more cringe-inducing than watching a Scientology official, in a public setting or on camera, attempt to handle a question about Xenu and other secret teachings of Scientology's upper levels. I mean, just watch Tommy Davis as he dealt with such a query from CNN's John Roberts three years ago (fast forward to the 5:30 mark for the real fun):

Just think for a moment about Tommy's reply: "John, does that sound silly to you?"

Well, yes, Tommy. That's why we love the Xenu story so much. It's Davis who looks silly, though, when he calls "unrecognizable" the concept of body thetans -- Hubbard's idea that the disembodied souls left behind by Xenu attach themselves to human beings and can only be removed through Scientology's auditing. Time and again, Scientology officials are made to look silly when they not only deny the Xenu story but try to act like they've never even heard of it before.

I've never understood why Scientology spokespeople don't handle the Xenu question this way:

"John, you know, there have been a lot of press reports about this space opera material, and it got made fun of on South Park, and on the Internet people discuss it like they know what they're talking about. But honestly, there's a reason we ask people to spend a lot of time doing sophisticated training so that our highly technical material makes sense for them. Anyone outside that process will never really understand what it is we're talking about."

Wouldn't that be a smarter approach? Wouldn't it make sense for a spokesman to at least acknowledge the existence of the Xenu story rather than to keep bluffing through interviews with total denial?

Oh, well wait. Tommy Davis did seem to acknowledge the Xenu story once, to Nathan Baca, a young reporter who was at the ABC affiliate in Palm Springs, KESQ, in 2009 and got Davis to say, "yes, I'm familiar with that material" when he started reading Hubbard's handwritten OT III materials out loud. I found this compilation video which illustrates Tommy's flip flop quite well:

Some of my sources have suggested to me that Tommy's little slip, acknowledging the OT III materials and the Xenu story, even in this rather off-hand way, is what has Tommy seemingly out of favor today. The man was a ubiquitous presence for Scientology a few years ago, but today is hardly seen or heard.

Well, maybe there is no good way for Scientology to handle the Xenu story. They can't really talk about it publicly, because they want parishioners to pay something like $350,000 to $400,000 before they are exposed to it and the rest of the OT levels, according to calculations published recently by scholar Hugh Urban. But as long as they deny it outright, they look like fools.

Xenu sort of has them by the short hairs, doesn't he? What a devilish figure he is.

Next week, get ready for more of our countdown. Who's at #24? Our only hint: it's time for school.

SPECIAL UPDATE: For those who are not sure who "Xenu" is and what the heck this is all about.

In the comments, we were called out for being a bit too flip in this entry, and for assuming that our readers are all well aware of Scientology's basic concepts and controversies. Fair enough. We don't want to leave anyone behind, and the more folks who join us in this conversation, the better. So here's our attempt at a primer to bring everyone up to speed...

Only those Scientologists who have been training in the organization for several years, and have spent something like $250,000 on various services and training programs, will reach an "upper level" set of materials that are known as "Operating Thetan III," or OT III.

As numerous court cases and countless defections by high-level members has established beyond any doubt, the contents of OT III contain Scientology's origin story of human kind -- its Genesis, as it were.

In those materials, Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard explains that 75 million years ago, a galactic overlord ruling a 76-planet federation had decided to deal with an overpopulation problem by having billions of alien creatures brought to the planet Teegeeack, which we call Earth today. That overlord, who Hubbard names Xenu or Xemu, then blew up the countless aliens with hydrogen bombs, and then trapped their remaining souls, indoctrinating these souls with the use of 3D movies of a sort, and then set them free to wander the planet.

75 million years later, these bodiless, invisible alien souls have attached themselves to us. You might have hundreds in and around your body, and they give you aches and pains, cause you disease, and generally hold you back from your full potential.

Scientologists who have learned this secret then set out on even more expensive therapy (called "auditing") to clear themselves of these alien entities, which are known as "body thetans." Larry Wollersheim, a former Scientologist who successfully sued the church for fraud, described that process to me:

"At OT III, you find out that you're really thousands of individual beings struggling for control of your body. Aliens left over from space wars that are giving you cancer or making you crazy or making you impotent. The reason for every bad thing in your life is these alien beings," Wollersheim says. "I went psychotic on OT III. I lost a sense of who I was." Years can be spent removing these aliens--called "body thetans" or "BT's" --- by talking to and about these supposed hitchhiking entities while holding onto a device called an "e-meter." "You're talking to thousands of beings. They have histories. And anger. They're complex personalities." Eventually, however, Wollersheim graduated to a level where he believed he had finally eradicated all of the thetans from his body. "You think you've made it. You're free of all these beings. But then Hubbard releases the second big secret [on a level called "New Era Dianetics for Operation Thetans," also called "NED for OTs" or "NOTs."] He tells you there are far more of these beings than anyone ever dreamed of. Inside those original thetans are clusters of other beings. Beings that are eight feet from you, floating near you all the time. Beings miles away from you that are still connected with you. Beings in the television, and you're told that watching television will wake them up, so you're told not to watch TV. If OT III made some people nuts, NOTs really drove them over the edge," he says.

So to be clear, Scientologists do not "worship" Xenu. He is the big bad guy in their origin story -- and it's an origin story that only a minority of parishioners are even aware of, only those who have paid enough money to reach the upper level of OT III (the highest level is OT VIII). Beginning Scientologists are strictly kept in the dark about this material, and are told to avoid any mention of it on the Internet.

There is much more about OT III and the other upper levels that we can't touch on in this brief overview, but this should help anyone new to Scientology's teachings keep up with our countdown and most other posts here at Runnin' Scared.

The Top 25 People Crippling Scientology
#1: L. Ron Hubbard
#2: David Miscavige
#3: Marty Rathbun
#4: Tom Cruise
#5: Joe Childs and Tom Tobin
#6: Anonymous
#7: Mark Bunker
#8: Mike Rinder
#9: Jason Beghe
#10: Lisa McPherson
#11: Nick Xenophon (and other public servants)
#12: Tommy Davis (and other hapless church executives)
#13: Janet Reitman (and other journalists)
#14: Tory Christman (and other noisy ex-Scientologists)
#15: Andreas Heldal-Lund (and other old time church critics)
#16: Marc and Claire Headley, escapees of the church's HQ
#17: Jefferson Hawkins, the man behind the TV volcano
#18: Amy Scobee, former Sea Org executive
#19: The Squirrel Busters (and the church's other thugs and goons)
#20: Trey Parker and Matt Stone (and other media figures)
#21: Kendrick Moxon, attorney for the church
#22: Jamie DeWolf (and other L. Ron Hubbard family members)
#23: Ken Dandar (and other attorneys who litigate against the church)
#24: David Touretzky (and other academics)
#25: Xenu, galactic overlord

Tony Ortega is the editor-in-chief of The Village Voice. Since 1995, he's been writing about Scientology at several publications. | @VoiceTonyO | Facebook: Tony Ortega

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Tony Ortega, now you've gone and done it... you've pissed off Xenu and unleashed armies of angry little Thetans and their cohorts. There WILL be hell to pay. You wait and see.

For $75,000, I have a bootleg copy of OT III, just wire the funds to an account in Singapore and I'll get back to you. ;-)

Tyrone Smith
Tyrone Smith

Anyone who actually believes that Scientology is anything other than a money grab scam should be institutionalized.

Mark Patrick
Mark Patrick

Hello all, here's my "two cents" on the whole $cientology thing. I find it to be little more than a filthy mixture of half-truths, badly misinterpreted esoteric study, downright lies, coercion and money grabbing concocted by a half-baked Sci-Fi hack who, even if he could multiply his talents 100 fold, will never come close to the true greats of that field such as PKD, Asimov, Herbert, or Clarke.  

Mr B
Mr B

Hubbard claimed to have twice awakened from the dead by using his bogus therapy.  If these was any truth to that crap, let's see him raise himself yet a third time just to prove a point.


Tony, I am having a difficult time digesting your ignorance. You obviously harbor suspicious illusions about what people from another planet or galaxy would look like that are akin to a seven year old's ability to think.  Stick to forwarding facts, or have you switched to comic book entertainment?

Draconis Zeneca
Draconis Zeneca

Don't forget that Xenu is said to live onl in an "electronic trap" in a mountain in the Pyrenees . . . or is it the Mountains of the Moon in Africa? Mars? I can never keep track of the Fifth Invader Force's antics. Being an eeeeevil galactic despot is a generally thankless task, and I know of what I speak.


Thank you Obnosis for copy/pasting information from the 'Church' of Scientology's 'Religious Freedumb Watch' website.   Unfortunately, and despite being deliberately defamitory, it's completely irrelevant to Dave Touretzky's successful efforts to expose Scientology for what it is.

Your posting does expose you for what *you* are.



Touretzky is deeply involved in extremist activities. As an example, it has been calculated that, in less than a year, he spent over 300 of his supposed “working” hours participating in hate newsgroups and chat rooms. It must be presumed that Touretzky was paid full salary while he spent those 300 hours spreading hate on the internet, a fact that should be of concern to his employers at CMU as well as those government and private institutions that have thus far funded Touretzky’s research grants to the tune of more than $5,000,000.00.

This research, which involves experimentation on live rats, should itself perhaps be questioned in that Touretzky frankly admits that he is overpaid:

“My money comes mostly from the US govt, not corporations. So if we raise taxes and hike the NSF and NIH and DARPA budgets, that would be to my benefit.… I’m already overpaid.”– David Touretzky

David Touretzky Quotes

“… the Salvation Army … buncha f—-heads.”

“Man, Hispanics are f—-ed up, which is why they’re still working class. Dipshits.”

“F–k the Muslims.… check out the bloody Muslims .. jeez what loons.”

“Victoria’s Mormon Secret … Long sleeved bustiers!”

“this is NOT good publicity for the Mor(m)ons … he’s a psycho-Mormon.”

“I’m for post-partum abortion! Retro-active abortion! Up until, say, the age of six months.”

In one of his federal grant applications Touretzky wrote:

“This money will be used to help bring faculty and/or students from Historical Black Colleges and other institutions with large minority enrolments to Pittsburgh, for events aimed at increasing minority interest in the graduate programs affiliated with the Center for the Neural Basis of Cognition.”

In reality here is what Touretzky said and thinks about “Blacks and Minorities

“She [US Congresswoman] is the former ambassador to Micronesia! and she’s black. I should have known. What [sic] are all the really st00000pid congresswomen black?”

“The black underclass is a very, very sick culture, with terrible internal problems such as high rates of black-on-black murder, teenage pregnancy, educational failure, drug abuse, and so on. AA programs can’t help the black underclass, because those people are so screwed up they’re virtually unemployable….”

“There’s also a long rant about the sickness of black underclass culture, which again, I completely stand behind.”

Touretzky maintains web sites via the CMU server that promote his bigoted, extremist agenda. As examples of the kind of sick content he encourages anyone to view, one of these sites uses pornography to mock and desecrate religious practices while another provides detailed instructions on how to build a fertilizer bomb (the kind Timothy McVeigh copied off the internet and used to massacre men, women and children in Oklahoma City and do not forget the guy involved in the Norwegian attack)

When called to account for his hate activities, Touretzky is quick to hide behind the banner of “free speech”– a specious argument at best when one considers that Touretzky’s entire anti-religious hate campaign is specifically designed to denigrate the beliefs of others and thereby inhibit their ability to practice their religion and speak freely about their beliefs.

Recently one of Touretzky’s fellow newsgroup members proved this hypocrisy by posting to the internet information about Touretzky’s visits to a local sex shop and the purchases he makes there. Did Touretzky respect her right to “free speech?” Of course not. On the contrary, he kicked up such a row that the Internet Service Providers in question took the sites down, regardless of the fact that they were violating that individual’s Constitutional rights.



Let see in deeper details what Tony Ortega doesn't want you to know:


“[Pavlovian] Classical conditioning has a well-developed computational theory… At present there are no theories of instrumental conditioning comparable in scope and explicitness… The goal of our work is to provide such a theory…. “Due to the pioneering work of B.F. Skinner on operant conditioning, we have coined the term “skinnerbot” to describe autonomous learning robots…”- David Touretzky

David S. Touretzky is a research scientist at Carnegie Mellon University whose questionable “research projects” have thus far cost the American taxpayer million of dollars.

The above quotes are excerpted from one of several research projects conducted by an entity co-founded by Touretzky called “The Center for the Neural Basis of Cognition.” The flawed theories upon which he bases his work have been known for decades to be of such damage to mankind, that a full public investigation of the value of Touretzky’s research projects, particularly in light of their cost, is overdue.

The experiments of Pavlov and Skinner that Touretzky reverently references in the above paper as the basis of his work are viewed by today’s society as the barbaric acts of madmen.

B.F. Skinner imprisoned his infant daughter for nearly a year in a “box” similar to those he built for rats. Skinner stated in an interview that he would rather burn his own children than destroy his research.

As author and educator Dr. Samuel Blumenfeld stated,“The child was “stimulated” and had to respond in a certain way, like a chicken or a rat in a cage, because they firmly believed that children are animals. If you believe, though, that children are human beings, you can’t train them like a rat.”

Skinner would be imprisoned for the rest of his life were he to carry out the same experiment today.

Although best known for his conditioning of dogs by deprivation, the first subjects Ivan Petrovich Pavlov experimented on were children. He punched holes in their cheeks to collect and measure their saliva.

Pavlov’s and Skinner’s experiments fed Behaviorist beliefs that, as Dr. Blumenfled states,“all children are animals and can be trained as animals.” John Watson, the most famous of Behaviorists, believed that researchers had to look at human beings “the same way you would look at the ox you slaughter.”Touretzky puts a vague potential value on research projects which drain the taxpayers of millions. In actuality he is repackaging and selling other men’s theories under the sexy new label of “computer science.” By recycling Skinner’s box and his experiments on rodents, Touretzky has managed to make a very comfortable living dangling under the noses of the administrators of government funds the carrot that perhaps someday robots can be conditioned to react and “learn” like rats, as he considers humans do. In truth, these experiments appear to be a mere re-ringing of Pavlov’s bell inside Skinner’s torture chamber with a dash of Noam Chomsky to appear timely. For Touretzky has yet to provide a shred of evidence that the value of his contributions to science amount to more than the cost of his dead rats.

Little attention would be paid to Touretzky were he just another researcher dreaming up dubious projects in order to feed from the public trough. But Touretzky’s thirst is for power and fame as well as money.

Touretzky subscribes in full to the Behaviorist doctrine that man is an animal and his virulently racist remarks are in complete alignment with psychiatry’s practice of Eugenics which holds that dark-skinned races, among others “defectives,” are intellectually inferior. Racial and religious minorities are his favorite targets.



Love that update :) Thanks for educating the readership about Xenu, lol

John Wetzel
John Wetzel

I certainly hope that the "gold standard" of Scientology critics is listed.  Paulette Cooper's "The Scandal of Scientology" publiched in 1971, plowed new ground.  And few people, if any, paid a higher price for her investigative reporting.  Thanks Paulette!!!

And Tory Christman is right behind along with Jeff Jacobson. .

Joe Lynn
Joe Lynn

When you get right down to it, Scientology's 'processes' or 'Tech' are really only a bone of contention because of Scientology's desperation to keep them 'secret'.  That led to direct conflicts with people who feel it's our democratically derived right to discuss any damn thing we want.

And, it's those malicious attempts to control what *anyone* says about Scientology (or L. Ron Hubbard) that leads and has led to some of the most overtly criminal actions by the 'Church'.

Sure, there are elements of the 'Tech' that qualify as hypnotic mindfuck and deliberate mental manipulation and generally potentially dangerous and damaging to those exposed to them.

But, for the most part, the people who are opposing Scientology are *primarily* doing so to oppose the criminal actions the 'Church' has taken over decades to *prevent* discussion of Scientology by anyone.

Had Scientology (the organization, not the floor wax) been satisfied to control the minds of its victims, much of the current furor could have been avoided.  Few people will object to adults believing silliness, even when that leads directly to personal mental breakdown.   Naturally, that is complicated by what Scientology does to the innocents so unlucky as to be born into the insanity.

But, the primary objection is to the activities of the 'Church' that attempt to control discussion of Scientology by *non-Scientologists*.  They are often criminal and always repugnant.


Jan Eastgate, head of Citizens Commission on Human Rights will earn her place in the list if the Australian justice system is allowed to run it's course. The CCHR is a ruthless lying front group which keeps Hubbard's paranoia about psychiatry and psychology alive and well through attempts to discredit all mental health work outside of the "church". The case in Australia, charges that Eastgate covered up the sexual abuse of an eleven year old child by her father, a scientologist. This case could contribute a powerful blow in ending the con.


I love that John Roberts interview, lol!! Glad you were able to find a video that contains that famous Nathan Baca Tommy Davis interview section when Baca was at KESQ, now working KLAS-TV, CBS for Las Vegas. After Baca left, KESQ actually took down all Baca news videos about Scientology from their site and filed copyright complaints with YouTube to get copies taken down. Thank God for Fair Use copyright law :)

If your next Top Person Crippling Scientology is Will Smith, I'd love to know if you can provide us with the real name of Piano Foster, Executive Director of his New Village Leadership Academy. I believe she is or was married to a Darrell Foster. Piano is listed on the net as having taken one course in Scientology in the past but knowing her real name would help us know if she is an active scientologist.

There is no person named Piano Foster according to all people search sites. Hmm.....

John D'Oh
John D'Oh

I know I shouldn't post so soon but, fair or no, I wager #1 to be John/Jane Doe gullible public.  If it weren't for the unquestioning rubes, there would be none of this foolishness and the personal tragedies thereof.


The Top 25 People Crippling Scientology

Anonymous, David Miscavige, Louis Farrakhan, Tom Cruise, Me,Tony Ortega, Mark Bunker, anonsparrow, Janet Reitman, and 16 other journalistsbefore her, including Pauline Cooper.


I studied Scientology for over 30 years and am very familiar with the Xenu story and all the expensive levels that are associated with that. 

I do want to give my praise to some of Scientology however. 

Dianetics works, for many people, even people uneducated in the theory. I don't ask you to believe it and I don't particularly want to argue about it with anyone who has not at least attempted it. 

There are many who have counseled with this technology without even entering a Church and to their benefit. Suggest looking into Amazon or ebay for "Dianetics: A Visual Guidebook to the Mind - L. Ron Hubbard".  

I don't suggest at all that you go into a church, but I think anyone who wants to engage in criticism of the technology of Dianetics and Scientology would benefit from at least a cursory glance of the introductory material. 

People got in, and in certain times and places, in droves, in the past, not because of the influence of celebrities or because they were stupid, but because, for a lot of people, it works! 

And it still does, but it will only work if you at least attempt to give it a fair shake. 

The same thing could be said for all of the Scientology books and introductory auditing procedures and the Scientology Grades of Auditing. 

My own belief is that Ron was in many, many ways brilliant, and I don't mean a brilliant "con". I mean that a lot of what he wrote works. 

Where the subject got in trouble is due to his implementing his own recollections of past life incidents into the technology as doctrine and scripture. In the counselor's code of Dianetics and Scientology, this is strictly forbidden (evaluation of case), and Ron himself said that it should never be done. There was enough trust on the part of people who had benefited from what he gave them that the attitude we had when HE did this was "Well, what he gave us before this was good, perhaps I should trust him on this...",

There are other places where it got in trouble, but just mentioned is one of the more important ones. 

And his view of past lives was far from sweet. Invader forces, alien races, bad guys taking over whole solar systems; you haven't heard a tenth of it. And on the coat tails of this is a maddening group philosophy that we had a "planet to save" and that we were the only ones who could do it.

But I will always defend the delivery of the beginning levels of Scientology and Dianetics, the things you get prior to the fantasies of the OT levels. Brilliant stuff and easily available and you can do a lot of it for free, if you are willing to give it a fair shot. 


I don't give a flying fuck what you think!

And who are you to issue orders to Tony Ortega? Oh yeah, right, you were his boss in a previous life.

Suffering from indigestion? Try an antacid if the touch assists are failing you.

If you're looking for comic book entertainment, try [spit] $cientology. The got a belief-system that is pure science fiction.


It seems to me that Mr. Touretzky would be well within his rights to issue a Doe Subpoena for your identifying information and then depose you. Perhaps he should be contacted about your posts?

johnny d
johnny d

"If attacked on some vulnerable point by anyone or anything or any organization, always find or manufacture enough threat against them to cause them to sue for peace."- L. Ron Hubbard, Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter, 15 August 1960, Dept. of Govt. Affairs


we are trying to have an intelligent conversation here. Please take your Scientology hate machine propoganda and lies someplace else. You stand out like a sore thumb as the idiot on this blog


All provable false. Why do you bother trying to bullshit people who can (are allowed to) google?I really want to know. 


In fact, its because the beginning, basic stuff is so effective that the various posters should be concerned. Most of the staff and Sea Org members are not long time adherents to the religion. Most new recruits are young folks who do the basic stuff and have fantastic life changing "wins." They think, "hey, this stuff works and was true, so everything all the way up the Bridge must be true and off they go. Of course, then as staff, most will never themselves have access to the upper levels. When i was in the SO, i always wondered why Int Mngt wouldnt push the staff up the Bridge. I guess its because those at the top dont really believe it themselves and dont want to waste the staff's time and divert them from the important business of fleecing the flock.


Dan, your post is old at this point, so i dont know if you will get it, but i'm with you. When i started in Scn i did a read a bunch of books and did some basic $60 coureses. That stuff really was alot of fun and helped me alot. In fact, my income skyrocketed up as a result of that stuff. But when i started doing the expnesive stuff, my experience was not so good or dramatic. I never progressed to Xenu, hehe. But i found, and still find, all the basic theory and self help stuff to be fantastically workable and effective. Go figure.


auditing was so boooooooooooooooooooooring.I would make up "past life" incidents and enjoy my self-made movie and of course my "needle would float" and I could get the heck out of there.If the pictures all "erased" why can you still remember them?????


There's much more to learn about Hubbard, Dan.  Talk therapy isn't bad, can produce good results.  Placebo's produce good results too.  Hub's talk therapy was stolen from others, a little twist here and alteration there.  There is no science in scientology, and btw there's been huge leaps and bounds in advancement in the talk therapy field, from the 30's and 40's.  Huge.  It's like putting a large block of ice in front of a fan to cool off.  Yes, it helps some, but there's this thing called an air conditioner in use today.

I'm not being snide.   I'm being sincere, and smiling.   As far as fair, or uneducated on the subject, not so.  In fact, as a former "OT" and former Sea Org'r,  I worked right beside you, Dan, a long, long time ago in the dank and deep bowels of Big Blue.  You never know who you'l bump into at Tony's place, do you. 


By "free" I mean you can pick up whole libraries of Scientology material on ebay (that cost the original parishioners thousands) for a hundred or two dollars. In the Technical Volumes and in the books you will find all the processes that are used in the introductory processes, Dianetics and the Scientology grades. You would benefit from some mentoring from someone who has been successful at it before, but that would not be a requirement to be a success; it just would make success more likely. Fifty percent of the success of a Scientology or Dianetics counselor lies in his discipline in procedure. It's difficult to get that without some familiarity with seeing it in successful action. 

Whatever one might think of author William S. Burroughs, it is certain that he was in intelligent man and hardly the type of person to be swayed into an enthusiasm for something without very close and skeptical examination. Burroughs was at one time a strong adherent of Scientology before becoming one of it's most outspoken critics. 

He did pretty much as I am suggesting; he benefited from the introductory materials, "As to my personal evaluation, after six months of study: I would not be writing this article unless I was convinced that Scientology is worth serious consideration. I feel that I have benefited greatly from Scientology processing. In an earlier article in Mayfair I said that Scientology can do more in ten hours than psychoanalysis can do in ten years. For what this is worth I still think so." 

But he was rightly appalled at what was occurring organizationally and with some of the control mechanisms that Hubbard put into place. 

People criticizing it are wasting time just reading others' criticisms and joining the mob mentality. Use it and benefit from it and THEN criticize it, if you will.


By the way, you come off as hysterical. Very wobbly. Tony is managing a justice situation.  He is doing a good job at it. Because he investigates and forwards reports. You on the other hand, are using insults instead of facts.  You are clearly misemotional and ridden with hate.  So take your frenzied condition and F*^k O6f.  It's not my mission to handle hysteria, only to contribute to facts.  Anyone who thinks everyone beyond this planet if there is other life, and I think it's narcissistic to assume we are "the only ones", anyone who think anyone not from Earth must have a huge head and slanty eyes is contributing to stereotype.  That is not Tony's usual theme.  That is all I meant.  If you have found a subject more interesting than Scientology then you wouldn't be here misemoting about the subject.


If you didn't "give a flying fuck" what I thought, you wouldn't be screaming at me.


Since when hate speech and anti-religious extremism is considered "intelligent conversation? LOLI'm just showing the other part of the coin. If you can't handle truth...well, that's is your problem.


One wonders why they bother posting to this blog. Its not like the VV readers ain't been to town.


I have to agree with TheGuest.  There's simply no evidence that $cientology offers anything beneficial beyond placebo or talk therapy.  There are much better, safer, and advanced things available.  And also note, that while I respect the even measure of danlocke's comments, this poster shows indignation that we are "minimizing" Hubbards accomplishments.  Keep in mind it was Hubbard himself who called it "science," time and time again, until it became a religion for tax purposes.  Yet his techniques don't hold up to any type of scientific scrutiny.

Hubbard made this stuff up on the fly, much like his science fiction, with little consideration of if there was any basis in reality.  I've read Dianetics, and this is painfully clear.  Almost all of his claims are baseless, and a large proportion are patently false.  I draw your attention to the elaborate "brain diagrams" he includes, which are basically electronic circuit diagrams.  (Not very religious.) It may have looked cool in the 40's and 50's when people were excited about transistors and capacitors.  It may have been impressive during a lecture.  But it is ridiculous and even laughable to someone with a modicum of knowledge in these matters. And of course he was constantly making false claims regarding medical cures.

There will always be a small percentage of people who perceive a variety of unexplained effects from any process.  This is where science comes in, to quantify and verify.  If one out of 10,000 people get diarrhea from taking tylenol, then it's probably not caused by tylenol.  That's statistically insignificant.  And it would therefore make little sense to recommend it as a treatment for constipation.  There has been no research to suggest scientology helps anyone.  Personal anectdotes don't count.  More so, the water is muddied by MANDATORY positive reporting amongst the paying adherents. So unresearched claims in this case are especially misleading (see also NARCONON).

One of the things that makes me cringe when I hear these recommendations to "give scientology a try" is always a qualification, like "you have to take the good with the bad" or "Hubbard had flaws, but he was also a genius."   We know all about Hubbard's character, and we saw the arc of his life end in failure and insanity.  Much of the same for many of his followers.  Today, we hear news from the UK about classified documents from the '70s now released, describing the government's fear of the "harmful and evil" nature of scientology.  And here we have a post saying there were "three Hubbard's", but we should only look at one of them.  The way I see it, it is our RESPONSIBILITY to steer people away from scientology, if not tell them to run screaming.   Somewhere along the lines of avoiding Satanism. 


I imagine we are old friends; there were very few I met in the Sea Org I did not like; so I'll assume that in this chat with you. 

I take some exception to your minimizing his accomplishments by reducing it to "talk therapy" and by saying that is was stolen, with only a "twist" to make it his own. I have never been surprised to hear others anecdotes that individuals had given him ideas and researched and that they were never acknowledged; I have seen with my own eyes some of that. 

But to imagine that this is the case with all or even a majority of the hundreds of processes he released over the years... that's really stretching it for me. I think a majority of his processes, he invented; and he always had dozens, if not hundreds of students to report back to him their success or lack of it. 

I am not a student of this stuff any longer, and it's totally ok with me if there is more effective therapy... that was another thing that stuck in the craw throughout the time I was involved: the idea that no one else could be "Source"; that this was the only "workable" way. Links to these?

"Deep in the bowels of Big Blue"? If you are being specific, you are talking about the '82-'83 RPF, I guess. I might remember you somewhere in that haze of round the clock renovations; did you ever sleep? 

Old OT7
Old OT7

Hi TheGuest!

Didn't realize you were in as deep as you were!  Really enjoy your posts!  And yes, in scientology the placebo effect is wide spread.  It really is the prefect trap:  You pay hundreds of thousands of dollars so you REALLY want to believe that you are gaining these elusive super powers.  I would notice, though, that the feeling would wear off.  After I did the entire lower bridge, I voiced the opinion that I hadn't really gotten the great results that had been promised.  The ED of the Org did not like one bit.  And, of course, the "group think" is that it's your fault!  A better mental trap I've never seen!

And, you're right, Hubbard stole from many people in coming up with this.  Really, his whole life was a lie or greatly exaggerated.


"People criticizing it are wasting time just reading others' criticisms and joining the mob mentality. Use it and benefit from it and THEN criticize it, if you will."

But, Dan, if you've been following along, if somebody does *that*, then they're an 'apostate' and too 'bitter' to comment :)

As to Burroughs, he's been one of my favorite writers since the '60s and, in retrospect, I even enjoy the obvious Scientology influences in his 'Nova Express', 'Ticket That Exploded', 'Soft Machine' and 'The Wild Boys' novels.  Fun to look back and realize where the crazies with 'camera guns' came from.

But, while Burroughs was a highly intelligent and always interesting thinker, he wasn't particularly bound to 'science' or even ratinality.  It's as easy to see why he was interested in Scientology as in Wilhelm Reich, and, he was never shy about immersing himself into some fringe pseudo-science, before, ultimately dispensing with it.

Thankfully, much of the analysis of Scientology *does* come from people who were deeply and sincerely involved in it; often at the highest levels and for a lifetime.  And, even those who are still willing to grant some credence to *potential* boon with it, the general consensus is that, at its core, Scientology is inherently and unredeamingly tainted with the poison that Ron designed into it.


Thanks so much for these great posts, danlocke -- I really respect your point of view, and think they add a lot of value to the conversation.  I don't partake of any religions or "applied philosophies", but I observe and study many in my spare time with great interest.  Since Scientology is so new (only 60-ish years old), it will be very interesting to see what happens to it from here on out.  Because of the considerable amount of Independents in the world, and people like yourself, it seems that Miscavige won't be able to destroy all that CoS has to offer even when he does go down.  Look at all the dozen various splintered kinds of Christianity that exist in the world, after 2000 years (which in my opinion includes the modern Mormon church as well as the FLDS and Warren Jeffs, another abusive narcissistic sociopath who knows nothing outside his own cult, like DM).  Are you excited to be a part of history in the making?


Danlocke, Old OT7, TheGuest: thank you for this terrific exchange. This is the kind of thoughtful discourse, by people with deep backgrounds in this material, that really makes this work worthwhile.

Old OT7
Old OT7

I must admit, danlocke, that was a very insightful post.  Any 'talk therapy" can certainly be beneficial.  And I do know people who were helped by Dianetics.  The one thing I wished Hubbard had done was to allow the auditor to as the pc, "What would you like to run?"  The template was the same for everyone and I didn't think I had reached the state of clear although everyone else in the org said that I had.  I was looking for the book 1 definition of clear:  Ron said, "A clear is to a normal person, as a normal person is to the institutionally insane."  That's quite the yawning gap there!

I joined because I was told dianetics could cure my stuttering which had been very severe all my life.  But it was never addressed in session. 

A few years ago, a friend of mine, Mike Goldstein (who worked with Ron on the ship) stated something called Identics.  Well, one 90 minute session cleared up about 90% of my stuttering.  Like regular auditing, you come to realize that you are the one who created whatever problem you are trying to address.  But the rapidity of my success just overwhelmed me!

I got up to old OT7.  After OT3 I just figured the old man flipped out on drugs and alcohol. 

But yes, there are people who have benefited from auditing.  How long their wins lasted is debatable.  At this point though, scientology has truly morphed into a very vicious, evil and militant cult.

But, again, a very well thought out and reasonable post by you.


Hi Dan, ahhh the "good old days"  lol.  As to the RPF TimeShare Resort (Tommy Davis would never lie!), well, it's like they say about the 60's:  "If you remember it,  you weren't there; if you have flashbacks, you probably were."   It was ASHO staff days, mostly, we slogged through, but yes I vacationed in the PAC RPF. 

This article is about top people that crippled scientology so I don't want to derail, other than my finishing off with Jack Parsons as my guess for next.  All I can tell you is there's much more information available on the net that would address your argument.  You've probably heard the expression of peeling off the sci layers.  I'd say  you're shy of the last 2 or 3 and they can be tough.  I only bring it up because there is still inherernet harm.

All those hours of processing, all those processes you speak of.  First of all, many were created by others; second of all, Hubbard was on drugs, was physically and mentally deteriorating over the years.  There have always been brilliant people around Hub because of his charisma. Others did some of of the work, or fixing up his stuff so it was marketable.  Others kept him out of jail, or one step ahead of creditors.

There Was brilliance in this game called Scientology, as well as hopes of a better world.  It's just that the genius did not stem from Hubbard, and the heartbreaking, backbreaking work towards saner civiliations,  that, Dan, came from people like you and me.  But psychopaths, hey,  they get all the headlines, loot, and glory.

Most of all I'm so glad you made it out alive! 


Thank you kyote. I have spent an hour or so drafting and re-drafting a reply to you; and I wasn't able to finish anything that brought me satisfaction. I will be a little more simple now and see if that works. 

You're right; David Miscavige will not destroy Scientology. His splinter group, the current "official" Church may or may not survive, but the information of Scientology has already splintered off in thousands of directions and it's all surviving. 

"History in the making"? Well, we are all a part of that, I guess. Excited? I like being excited, but right now it's a little easier to pull that off in regards to some other subjects. I'll have to get back with you on that one. 


Thank you, Old OT7. I am living in Ecuador at the moment. When I come back to visit the states, I will also visit you.

Old OT7
Old OT7

Hi Tony!

We all three thank you as well as the rest of the crew posting here.  But really, you have created the platform that we communicate through and, I might add, have done a magnificent job in doing so!  danlocke was just stating his personal opinion and did it in a very gracious way.  More so than the sock puppets that just spew garbage.  I'll bet if he, myself and TheGuest got together, we'd probably have a great time talking about our shared experiences.  danlocke, I don't know where you live, or even TheGuest, but I'm in southern California.  You never know, we all might meet up some day!

Tony, if I may speak for all of us on this thread, expect of course the trolls, thanks for being an excellent journalist and a cyber friend to all.


Post pics. :) 


There is still plenty of material in Scientology to make it worthwhile to study first-hand. I hope some who read are made sufficiently curious to attempt a co-audit or arrange an introductory session from an independent field auditor. Many of them I know and, overall, these people seem to have done well in separating themselves from the abusive practices of the current organizations.

I am not an extraordinary student of the Bible, but I have spent a couple hundred hours studying (and yawning) over portions of it. Certainly some of what you can read in it, anyone with any intelligence could find fault with, and then ridicule and scorn. But then with a little more intelligence than that, one can also decipher truth and stories of love in as well.

Which should we give most of our attention to?

The Church's activities in the last many years (I can only claim first hand knowledge from 1968-2003) has just become more and more outrageous. Ron Hubbard originated at least the seeds of all that everyone is currently pissed about; it won't go away from influences within the organization as it was authored by Ron, and, inside the Church, it's just not right to argue with ANYTHING that the "old Man" ever wrote. That just one thing that does not work. 

And he wrote the material that validated being tough and unreasonable and shooting first and asking questions later. In the Sea Org member's world, getting things done that forward the cause are more important than people. Google Scientology Flag Order 2710 and you will see why all this beating staff members stuff does not really cause a flinch in the world of the Sea Org member.

"No one REALLY got damaged. Big deal. I guess those guys who are doing the whimpering must have been VERY ineffective."

But all that does not mean that there is not a lot of good in the subject. Actually. it seems to me sometimes that the work was written by 3 different men. One wrote the Axioms and Logics and the most basic books; that man was a brilliant metaphysical philosopher; more than that, he was also someone who could invent processes that brought about increases in human ability. 

The 2nd man wrote in his own "whole track" accounts into the counseling technology; that man was... well, I don't know... can I just say, "wrong"?

The third man wrote the policies and flag orders. And that man was a person who had himself given up on the real worth of his auditing technology. Whilst the auditing technology validated reason and respect for others; the administrative technology too often validated brute force and invalidation. 

But so often staff are handled with force and ridicule when a kind word and a reminder of their purpose would have really brought out their star power. 

Both inspiration and fear were part of the administrative tool chest of Scientology. Only inspiration and acknowledgement of the general goodness of the being were part of the auditors' toolbox. 


And Tony, if I may kiss your ruddy bum, thanks to you for providing the forum for this to happen. 


I look forward to meeting you one day. If you like, contact me through facebook. 

Old OT7
Old OT7

Hi danlocke!

No. I was never SO but was on staff in Hawaii in the 70s.  The conditions for staffwas abysmal.  We made, maybe, $25 a week.  Many weeks we made nothing.  I had a B of I done on me and when I read my ethics file, I realized that it was true that everyone is spying on everyone else.  So I quickly left.  But during my stink, my mom came over to see when I had gotten myself into.  She asked one too many questions and I was angrily told that my mother was a "raging" PS and I was ORDERED to disconnect from her that very day.  Well, being a brainwashed young man, I did as I was told.  She calmly packed her bags, drove to the airport, flew home where she lived with her cousin, and attempted suicide.  You see, I was her only child and had just rejected her for, as I see it now, this cult.  Her cousin came home from work early that day, found her, rushed her to the hospital and saved her life.  But I had to live with what I did until she passed away in '84.

And danlocke, you and I both know that this was Hubbard's policy.  This is the very dark side of this organization.  

But I do respect your wonderful posts! 


Hello, there, Old OT7. Thank you. I am posting here under my real name. Do we know each other?

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