Scientology Schweinehund: Commenters of the Week!

sergeant schultz.jpg
"Rathbun? I see nothing!"
We were feeling pretty whiplashed this week here at the underground bunker where we keep an eye on all things Scientology related -- on the one hand, our big countdown was really heating up, but we also needed to keep an eye on the big news breaking out in Germany, where Marty Rathbun and Ursula Caberta were giving David Miscavige reason to have the night sweats.

Things started early for us this week, as just a few hours after posting last week's best comments, we rushed to get word out that Rathbun was headed for Hamburg, his secret travel plans having been outed by the Squirrel Busters.

On Sunday, we supplemented your holiday weekend with a fun little tidbit about how Scientology is engaged in a seemingly desperate effort to track down people who have been out of the church for 20, 30, even 40 years.

On Monday, we resumed our countdown with #12, Tommy Davis and "other hapless church executives." This proved to be one of the most popular posts in our list so far.

Tuesday night, a reader tipped us to an interesting piece by screenwriter Skip Press, who wrote about his memories of watching Paul Haggis rise through the ranks, only to see Scientology savagely attack him recently for going public with his criticisms of the church.

Wednesday morning, we revealed #11 in our countdown, Australian Senator Nick Xenophon, who seems to have Scientology on the ropes Down Under.

Later that day, we posted the first video coming from Rathbun's press conference with Caberta in Germany. It was something else to see the two of them sitting together!

Thursday morning, we made an announcement about when you'll be able to vote on your own Top 25 People Crippling Scientology -- from Monday, Sept 19 to Monday, Sept 26. And we also revealed that we'd added some folks to our previous countdown items.

The next day, we plunged into our Top Ten with the moving tale of Lisa McPherson, with help from Janet Reitman, who generously gave us permission to quote liberally from her terrific book, Inside Scientology.

And finally, yesterday afternoon we posted additional video from Germany, where Rathbun appeared on a talk show and said some interesting things about Tom Cruise, Bill Clinton, and Tony Blair.

Wow, all that in one week. OK, on to the awards...

In regards to our holiday weekend story about Scientology tracking down a former member 40 years after he left in order to sell him some new books, we liked this response by Jefferson Hawkins:

Tony, I was just heading out to the river myself, but had a few comments. First, to a Scientologist, there is no such thing as an Ex-Scientologist. If you ever were a Scientologist, no matter how briefly -- even if you just bought a book -- you are always a Scientologist. You are just "inactive" for one reason or another - you had "misunderstoods" on Hubbard's materials, you "skipped a gradient," you "had an ARC Break," and so on. As Hubbard's materials can never be wrong, then "obviously" people only leave because they didn't get it. So there is a consistent and massive effort to "recover inactive Scientologists" by showing them how and why they "didn't get it." When I was part of Scientology's marketing department, we were constantly berated for all of these "inactive Scientologists" and tasked with coming up with more and more ways to "recover" them. Secondly, their massive membership numbers -- six million or 20 million or a gazillion -- depend on counting all of these "inactive" Scientologists. Third, as Hubbard's materials can never be wrong, they have to dream up reasons why people didn't get it. A favorite one is "there were errors in the books" or "there were errors in the materials." How Hubbard could have missed all of these supposed errors is never explained. They did this in 1991, when all of Hubbard's books were gone through and "corrected" so that they were "exactly as Hubbard intended." Scientologists were then told to discard their old "inaccurate" books and buy a whole new set of books. This was 1991. Then they did the exact same caper in 2007, again saying that the books all had errors, redoing them all, and forcing all Scientologists to buy all new books. That Scientologists fell for it TWICE shows the level of cult indoctrination -- they believe anything they are told, even if it contradicts what they were told before. All of these shenanigans speak of a high level of desperation in the Church. They are shrinking, losing members every day, and not bringing in new people (as the truth about the organization is all over the internet). Their only "expansion" is a massive real estate scam.

We also liked this response from SuzyQ, with her solution to insistent Scientology telemarketers:

I was tracked down after 29-years, two name changes (married then re-married), three moves including into a new state. I think they are using Facebook, Twitter, Linkedin, etc. to track folks down... can not confirm but seems possible. I was so stunned & shocked that I just started screaming into the phone "how did you find me" -- "leave me alone". My poor, never been a scio-bot, husband was at my side trying to figure out what happened. I hung up and was so upset, hubby ask if we should get a gun. I told him no -- but the calls continue UNTIL! I offered to help the caller to "escape" from Scio-bot world. I offered the assistance of "others" who would help her get in touch with family, a job, freedom. She hung up ASAP & I have never received another call. If I get another call I will be filing a police report & "taking steps to protect my interest".

Our countdown item about Tommy Davis and other church executives generated a huge response. We chose this fun tidbit about New York org leader John Carmichael which was posted by Bob Peterson:

I first ran into John Carmichael after a picket in Clearwater sometime in '97 or thereabouts. After the picket was pretty well done for I headed for my car in a parking garage down the street when I noticed a couple of guys following me in a car. Carmichael was the driver, the other guy some heavy that I have never seen since. They followed me into a restaurant where we had a parley of sorts. It turned out that they were very put out over the fact that I was not with the other picketers who I guess had all gone off someplace to eat. Why this upset them I can't say for sure. Suffice to say that before meeting John Carmichael I had always scoffed at the idea of UFO's and Aliens on earth; after that day I decided to reserve judgement.

We also appreciated this rumination on our countdown from Miles Biondo:

I've come to appreciate how many of the items on this Top 25 list are themselves lists, with each number representing not just a person, but a collection of entities, all falling under the banner of an individual who, I suppose, epitomizes their category. Some numbers are lists of people who stood their ground in the face of the cult's legendary antagonism and harassment. Some are lists of journalists who dared to tell the truth about the cult. Some lists are a mixed bag of people, the cult's former victims and victimizers, who have changed their allegiance and created problems for the cult. And some are just lists of scumbags. This one. This list, my friend, is a steaming pile of vile, unrepentant scumbags. Plus a pretty cool comic book that makes fun of $cientology without even knowing it's doing it.

Our countdown item about Australian politician Nick Xenophon also listed another public servant who stood up to Scientology, the late mayor of Clearwater, Gabe Cazares. We liked this reaction by loyal reader MarkStark:

Gabe Cazares was a real trooper during the cult's landing and invasion in Clearwater. On the national level, as an American, I'm embarrassed that we have to look to Australia and Europe, or any other countries to find politicians who made a difference nationally, in stemming this cult's activities. Happily embarrassed though, because at least it is happening over there, which is kind of everywhere, because of the web. The opportunities religions have here to be free and flourish spawned Hubbard, his cult, their sales creatures and propaganda machine. Are the U.S. politicians waiting for Scilons to cut their balls off and commit suicide before they do something? Is it backlash from Jonestown? Politicians think that it they get involved investigating something so insular and controversial, like a major cult, it risks their reputation and maybe even life. Leo Ryan unwittingly triggered the Jonestown tragedy. That's hard for a lot of politicians to forget. Then there's the star worship, which comes in handy for politicians seeking office, trying to identify themselves with stars and their idealism in movie roles like Cruise in Top Gun. For many years, it was too much of a risk, to go up against the cult of Tom Cruise. However, his video may have made a significant difference, if any politician cares to watch it. The other thing they should watch is Xenophon's speech, and why not read the Reitman book, just for fun?

Our report about Marty Rathbun's press conference in Germany elicited a firestorm in the comments between Rathbun's "indie" supporters and his detractors in the Scientology critics scene. We thought the following two comments pretty well characterized the two sides arguing with each other. First, from the cantankerous Dennis Erlich...

He objects to the very things he was doing to others. How did he go from perpetrator to victim so fast? By applying scienotek, of course!

And from the indie side, we liked this comment by Theoracle:

Thank you Marty. This is bridge building and increasing understanding. I'm sick of every body wanting to practice Scientology getting stuck with the stigma the Church generates today. We DO disagree. And a "Scientologist" doesn't have to be equaled with David Miscavige and the corporate Church structure. All Scientologists are NOT the same and MOST of them don't want to have anything to do with the corporate structure and it's madness! There is no reason entire cultures have to turn again the practice and every Scientologist because of one man hiding out under a rock in the desert in California. That is plain injustice! Thank you Marty, for making them understand. Thank you for your voice and courage and for the justice you are bringing to this arena. Every Independent and Freezoner and Scientologist out here owes you a debt! You are doing us all an enormous service.

The countdown item about Lisa McPherson generated an outpouring of heartfelt grief over this woman so many of us only got to know after she died. In particular, we enjoyed this comment by Justcallmemary:

Once a person reads about Lisa McPherson, you see the subject of Scientology in a whole new light. I urge everyone, especially members former and current, to read Reitman's book if only for this extensive chapter on Lisa, which highlights the culture and policies of Scientology that attributed to her death and brought them under the media spotlight. It contains the most detailed, accurate and moving information to be found in one text, on what happened to her and why. What happened to Lisa could happen to you. Or your daughter, your son, your sister or your brother, your spouse, your friend, or your neighbor, when one becomes a part of the Scientology membership. At the onset, one signs away their civil right to appropriate medical care, leaving themselves in the hands of a church that would and could let this happen to another human being. Lisa McPherson's care and death tells us that no one should suffer so and no religion or organization should have the right to control another human being in this manner. When all is said and done many years down the pike, people will remember what happened to Lisa McPherson in the care of Scientology. 16 years and people still cannot forget what happened once they find out. That is why I think she is the # 1 Person Crippling Scientology.

Yesterday, after we posted more videos from Marty Rathbun's trip to Germany, we thought this conciliatory comment by NCSP seemed a fitting followup to the divisive stuff earlier in the week:

I am not a fan of Marty, but -- credit where credit is due -- he seems to be hitting it out of the park on this trip. Good for him!

And finally, V for Vacation posted a response to that story that raised what we thought was an interesting question.

I wonder what kind of ramifications this will have at all, other than to enrage Scns and DM towards Rathbun even more. I wonder if TC or any of his "people" would care or take action about a thing like this? Big news for Scientology, especially in Europe, but probably a non-existent story for anyone planning to buy a ticket to the next Mission Impossible movie.

Another great week of comments, folks, if a little light on pro-church action (or at least comments worth citing). Come on, Marcotai, you can do better -- and what happened to Mark Miglio?

Please come back for a big #9 in our countdown, which will be revealed Monday morning at 9 am.


The Top 25 People Crippling Scientology
#10: Lisa McPherson
#11: Nick Xenophon (and other public servants)
#12: Tommy Davis (and other hapless church executives)
#13: Janet Reitman (and other journalists)
#14: Tory Christman (and other noisy ex-Scientologists)
#15: Andreas Heldal-Lund (and other old time church critics)
#16: Marc and Claire Headley, escapees of the church's HQ
#17: Jefferson Hawkins, the man behind the TV volcano
#18: Amy Scobee, former Sea Org executive
#19: The Squirrel Busters (and the church's other thugs and goons)
#20: Trey Parker and Matt Stone (and other media figures)
#21: Kendrick Moxon, attorney for the church
#22: Jamie DeWolf (and other L. Ron Hubbard family members)
#23: Ken Dandar (and other attorneys who litigate against the church)
#24: David Touretzky (and other academics)
#25: Xenu, galactic overlord


tortega@villagevoice.com | @VoiceTonyO | Facebook: Tony Ortega

See all of our recent Scientology coverage at the Voice

Keep up on all of our New York news coverage at this blog, Runnin' Scared

Tony Ortega is the editor-in-chief of The Village Voice. Since 1995, he's been writing about Scientology at several publications. Among his other stories about L. Ron Hubbard's organization:

The Larry Wollersheim Saga -- Scientology Finally Pays For Its Fraud
The Tory Bezazian (Christman) Story -- How the Internet Saved A Scientologist From Herself
The Jason Beghe Defection -- A Scientology Celebrity Goes Rogue
The Robert Cipriano Case -- A Hellacious Example of Fair Game
The Paul Haggis Ultimatum -- The 'Crash' Director Tells Scientology to Shove It
The Marc Headley Escape -- 'Tom Cruise Told Me to Talk to a Bottle'
The Aaron Saxton Accusation -- Australia turns up the heat on Scientology
The Jefferson Hawkins Stipulation -- Scientology's former PR genius comes clean
The Daniel Montalvo Double-Cross -- Scientology lures a young defector into a trap
A Church Myth Debunked -- Scientology and Proposition 8
Daniel Montalvo Strikes Back -- Scientology Hit with Stunning Child-Labor Lawsuits
When Scientologists Attack -- The Marty Rathbun Intimidation
A Scientologist Excommunicated -- The Michael Fairman SP Declaration
The Richard Leiby Operation -- Investigating a reporter's divorce to shut him up
The Hugh Urban Investigation -- An academic takes a harsh look at Scientology's past
Giovanni Ribisi as David Koresh -- A precedent for a Scientology-Branch Davidian link
Janet Reitman's Inside Scientology -- A masterful telling of Scientology's history
The Western Spy Network Revealed? -- Marty Rathbun ups the ante on David Miscavige
Scientology's Enemies List -- Are You On It?
Inside Inside Scientology -- An interview with author Janet Reitman
Scientology and the Nation of Islam -- Holy Doctrinal Mashup, Batman!
Scientologists -- How Many of Them Are There, Anyway?
Roger Weller's Wild Ride -- Scientology When it was Hip
The Marc Headley Infiltration -- A Scientology Spying Operation Revealed
Placido Domingo Jr: Scientology's Retaliation is "Scary and Pathetic"
An Interview with Nancy Many, Former Scientology Spy
The Paulien Lombard Confession -- A Scientology Spy Comes Clean
The Deputy Benjamin Ring Hard Sell -- Scientology wants your 401K
The Top 25 People Crippling Scientology -- the whole series!
The Squirrel Busters Busted -- Unmasking the Scientology PI in Charge
Tommy Davis, Scientology spokesman, secretly recorded discussing 'disconnection'
Scientology internal document says its Office of Special Affairs will 'handle' the Village Voice

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71 comments
Theoracle
Theoracle

Thank you for being so fair and generous with everyone Tony.  You really do provide the reality from all points of view of what is going on.  That is journalistic honesty.  Very rare today, as people usually cannot step aside from their own agenda or purpose, to forward the truth. I declare you an Independent!

TonyOrtega
TonyOrtega

All are welcome here, Theoracle. Scientologists in the church itself, independents, former Scientologists, never-were-Scientologists, anons, old time critics, uninitiated newbies, fellow journalists, and just plain old Village Voice readers looking for a diverting read. We're all witnessing the most momentous period on Scientology's history since 1953, when Ron figured he'd try out the religion angle, and by gum, let's all watch and comment together.

Gary Lee-Nova
Gary Lee-Nova

Nice picks this week, Tony! Well done, as usual.

And thank you for posting the release schedule for the top 25.

JustCallMeMary
JustCallMeMary

Jeff Hawkins' comment is well worth repeating on the internet, especially for all those peeved people wondering why they are still geting mail from Scientology. Good choice, Tony.

Joe_Lynn
Joe_Lynn

"For any Indies who can make it to Hamburg by Saturday a.m. you are invited to join us for a briefing by me and a meeting amongst us.  It will be held at 10:30 am. in a reserved conference room at the Hamburg Ministry of Interior: 4 Johanniswall, at the corner of Johaniswall and Altstadterstrasse.   Be sure to bring your passport as you will need it to gain entrance to the building. Any potential OSA agents, recognize attempted infiltration will constitute a felony which will be prosecuted.  If you think you might make it contact Steve Hall – text at XXXXXXXXXX or email Steve Hall.   He is here in Hamburg making waves."

Did this happen?  Will there be video or a transcript?Will there be surfing?Beach Blanket Bingo?A popular uprising and pitchforks?

What *does* this mean?

Theoracle
Theoracle

Yes it happened. There were OSA police that snuck in and then left early. Otherwise the event was very friendly.  About 15 Independents representing EU showed up.  This is all from a post on an Independent forum. I will copy and paste. Hi Zinj........

  There was about 15 attending the meeting which was changed to a conference room in I believe  the Hotel Marty was staying in. This was paid for by Ms Caberta, another  sign that she is quite friendly with FZers/Independents. 

  My friend spoke to Ms Caberta  several times and found her very friendly. Same withGraham Berry. 

  Lots of reminiscing, laughing and a good time was had by all. :)

  There were 2 possible  OSAbots who left early. After the main meeting  much meetings with others over lunch etc.

  My friend didn't think there was anyone from Rons Orgs there, but he isn't part ofRons Org  and  dosn't know  anyone from RO except Max Hauri who wasn't there. 

   I've had some nice correspondence with Graham Berry and asked him if he could speak to Ms Caberta about trying to get the question on Government job application forms changed from " Are you a scientologist" to "Are you a CO$ member."

Joe_Lynn
Joe_Lynn

I'll move back to here and not particularly reference the later posts TO.  Because, I want to say thanks.  Your report is the only one I've seen yet, and it's good to have info.  We may not agree on a lot of things, but, I appreciate you giving us that view.

Joe_Lynn
Joe_Lynn

(sound of crickets)

robinlandseadel
robinlandseadel

Speakin' as a simple country scryer, I'd say we're deep into "Inside Baseball." 'Splain's all them crickets. 

What I find particularly interesting is the lack of blowback from trolls, OSA or otherwise. 

Veeeeeeeeeery interesting. 

It's as if the Sci Borgs have put on their cones of silence and can no longer hear themselves think.

I think the "Indy" movement is nuts. I remember a multimeter I bought to confirm continuity in some tube circuits I was modifying two decades ago. Recalling something about "the cans" I played with the multimeter's probes with adjustments set for the Ohmeter around .2 ohms, my usual setting for wire continuity. I tried higher settings, seeing more extreme needle motion. I noted that the variation in needle movement seemed to be dependent of a variety of factors [mainly the amount of skin the probes touched]. A Ouija Board would work better at the Psychic Fair. Let's face it, giving a good cold reading is a real skill, like auditing without the cheap-ass e-meter and with better communication skills. Frankly, the I Ching and Tarot Cards work best for me, your milage obviously varies or you wouldn't be caught dead holding those asparagus cans now, would you?

Ah, but I digress—and how is this day different than any other day, anyway? The fact is, save for spitballs coming from my direction, this comments section consists almost entirely of people who have been involved in Scientology for decades, often at the highest levels, people who eventually were forced to bail. Most say the reason is that David Miscavige has made things much worse than they used to be. But when I think of Scientology, the Tower card from the Tarot deck comes to mind—the inevitable fall of a tall building on a bad foundation.

I'd offer that David Miscavige is not so much the problem of Scientology as the inevitable product of the Luciferian mindset of the cult. 

The comments section for Tony Otega's series on Scientology comprises an incredible wealth of information on the cult, all underling the fact that Scientology is not a Religion, it is a Cult. This goes all the way back to the point of Inception—the moment that L. Ron Hubbard figured he could make more money with a religion than he could as a science fiction writer. Ron started at the bottom—Greed, Sloth, Lust, you name it—and went downhill from there, so there's really nothing to fix.

robinlandseadel
robinlandseadel

Thanks for showing up Theoracle, I really mean it. Marcotai appears to be a brain-dead troll and most other respondents to these posts are ex-Scientologists who are more or less blown for good. You are just about the only person who is defending the tech at this blog and it's obvious that you're not brain dead, that you're not mindlessly cutting and pasting and following orders from the next person up on the food chain.

I have never been in Scientology. I've been in religious groups that are generally looked upon with vague distain, particularly by Christianists. So while my vantage point is nothing like yours, your P.O.V. is not totally alien to me either. Having lived with people in the O.T.O., it came as a particularly big shock to find out that Aleister Crowley was such a big influence on Scientology, even more of a shock to read some of LRH's writings where he explicitly is paraphrasing Crowley. I think that if someone wants to learn about Crowley they should do it with their eyes open, fully aware, rather than having his "Tech" working on them, while one is playing the part of a "mark" in an unaware, hypnotized state. It's hard enough to take up the left-hand path. But entering CO$ with the assumption, the smiley-face assurance that auditing is a right-hand path—that's deception, pure and simple.

I knew I didn't want to be in Scientology as far back as the mid-seventies. But finding out that folks who signed up for a "Free Personality Test" ended up giving up their life savings to auditing—sorry, but that's what the tech was designed by LRH to do, extract as much money as possible from these marks—sealed the deal. All of that is more than bad enough for me to want to blow the whole thing off. 

Again, you are just one person, you are not Scientology. These blogs provide talking points for us to jump off of. Hopefully you don't think that means I'm jumping on you. I certainly have a lot fewer problems with folks like you and Marty practicing your religion unharassed than I do with seeing another glossy post from Saint Hill Manor. 

But at the end of the day, the tech was designed to extract as much money as possible, as quickly as possible. Any spiritual benefits will be purely unintentional. 

robinlandseadel
robinlandseadel

That's the children's version of the tale.

The adult version is "Some pigs are more equal than others."

There's nothing I've heard this side of a Republican National Convention that's as cluttered with Newspeak as Scientology Dogma and Jargon.

Theoracle
Theoracle

The moral of the three little pigs story is this:  The smart pig got stuck with the two other stupid F*%^&$G Pigs.

robinlandseadel
robinlandseadel

What's a "Blanket Declare?"

I guess you think Scientology jargon is sane.

You've been too long at the faire.

Theoracle
Theoracle

"I think the "Indy" movement is nuts."  Thanks for the blanket declare. I guess you think that's sane?

JustCallMeMary
JustCallMeMary

Glad my comment resonated with the readers. I was very moved by that chapter in Reitman's book.

Additionally, there are excellent chapters on the disturbing and remarkable experiences of  the Sea Org members, in particular the Hendersons, Headleys, Laura Decreszenzo and Jefferson Hawkins.

I Can't stress enough how important it is for people to learn about this insidious and dangerous organization masquerading as a church.

Joe_Lynn
Joe_Lynn

One suggestion on not being overtaken by dog and pony shows on crack:

Mike Rinder is gearing up for the UK version of MartyBlitz :)

Theoracle
Theoracle

I love Mike!  If you hear any more news please share it here.

Joe_Lynn
Joe_Lynn

I only know what I read on MartyWorld :)   That's where Mike Rinder announced that he was due to travel to the UK as part of the Blitzkrieg in a 'few weeks' if I remember right.  No details about whom he's supposed to meet with or what his purposes are.

I assume we'll be told when it's time to gasp and gush...

MarcAbian
MarcAbian

The writing quality has been improving as this series progresses.  One thing that tends to happen to people who write about Scientology is that they become so familiarized with Hubbard's redefinitions and nonsense words that they start using them without defining them, losing their audience in the process.  This has not happened here.  Scientology is so convoluted and multi-layered that it's a challenge to describe, but this series has managed to finesse the difficulties.

dennis l erlich
dennis l erlich

I'm not cantankerous, Tony.  I like to give the counter-argument when no one else is.  And especially when the consensus is being swayed by PR and revisionism.  And over years of posting to the internet I've seen that my opinion sometimes sways unwary readers into seeing things from my somewhat unique perspective.

MarkStark
MarkStark

If anything could bring out one's cantankerosity, as Marty might say, it's being critical of Scientology, or 1.1 on the tone scale, either of which are freedom medals of the mind to me.

They've got to come up with another name for the Freedom Medal of Valor.

The Batshit Crazy AwardCult Shillebrity of the YearPlanetary DisseminatorThe Miscavige Honorary Midget Award Raw Meat Grinder of the Year

TonyOrtega
TonyOrtega

Consider it a term of endearment. And keep up the comments, compadre.

dennis l erlich
dennis l erlich

Ok Tony.  Thanks.  For me it's the counter-rhythm that gives music its groove and the counter-melody that provides the harmony.

Xenu
Xenu

I think Dennis must have run out of cantankerousness when he crammed me.  He's probably running on mere orneriness now.

dennis l erlich
dennis l erlich

I don't know who you are, X.  But if I was cantankerous when I crammed you, I hope I dint do irreparable damage to your thetan.  Care to reveal ur true identity?  This is me.

JustCallMeMary
JustCallMeMary

There are others who would beg to differ on the evolution. Go read his posts at alt.religion.scientology and see for yourself.

NCSP
NCSP

Oof. My first commenter of the week, and it's for saying something nice about Marty Rathbun, who once called me "1.1".  That leaves a weird taste, but I'll take it!  :D

(Edited to add: On reflection, what he said was that my "ack" was 1.1, which just made me think of Bill the Cat from "Bloom County.")

Endscientology
Endscientology

Question - are all wogs considered 1.1?  Did LRH give any wise words about humans as blank slates or are we all born 1.1 only to be built up as Homo Novis?

I ask this here, and as a simple yes-or-no question because I don't need or want to read the single-sided crap that comes from a ronbot.

Do the clams really believe that the Piltdown Man was real?  

Now I may be laughing while I type these questions, but put it this way....extremists exist in every so-called religion.  Some people believe that they will get seventy-some-odd virgins in heaven if they blow themselves up.

NCSP
NCSP

I was never a Scientologist, so take this with a grain of salt, but I have read a lot of Hubbard, and:

1) No, being 1.1 (or anywhere on the tone scale) doesn't have anything to do with being a Scientologist or not. The tone scale is supposed to be applicable to anyone -- I guess Hubbard would say that Scientology helps people raise their tone, but no, 'wogs' would be perfectly capable of being in the higher bands of the scale, and Scientologists could certainly be in the lower bands.  1.1 means "covert hostility" and this is where Hubbard puts all homosexuals and other "perverts," as well as people who are just, y'know, covertly hostile. Anyone this low on the scale who can't be raised by Scientology processing, in Hubbard's view, should be "disposed of quietly and without sorrow."  (This is all in "Science of Survival," the 2nd (?) Scientology book after Dianetics.  It's pretty unreadable in parts but explains all about the tone scale.)

2) Since the 'thetan' in Scientology has lived many lifetimes, human beings, being thetans in "meat bodies," are anything but blank slates.  In fact, much of Scientology processing has to do with remembering and working through incidents that predate the current lifetime.

3) In "A History of Man" (which I haven't read fully but have read a lot about), Hubbard does cite the experiences of the "race" to which the Piltdown Man supposedly belonged as experiences that one is likely to find in auditing past lives.  So yes, the Piltdown Man is real in Scientology.

The problem with the extremism question in Scientology is that Hubbard's writings are pretty unambiguous and are expected to be followed to the letter in all circumstances. (Read 'Keeping Scientology Working' to get a sense of this; it's a short document but crucial for understanding the Scientology mindset.)  As Janet Reitman so astutely claims, to be a Scientologist is to be a fundamentalist; there is no questioning, no freedom of interpretation, etc.  There's really no such thing as an "extremist" or "moderate" Scientologist: as Tom Cruise said, "You're either in or you're out."

I hope that wasn't too long-winded!  As I said, I was never a Scientologist, and I certainly don't believe a word Hubbard wrote, so if anyone with more experience with Scn disagrees with me, I'll be happy to defer to them.

JustCallMeMary
JustCallMeMary

Well, I meant the original hoax one that people know about but I wrote that at 3am and just summarized what I saw at wiki. I have corrected it, Sir, lol

Joe_Lynn
Joe_Lynn

This Is Scientology:---------------------------------To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget, whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself -- that was the ultimate subtlety; consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink. The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them....To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just as long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies - all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.

Xenu
Xenu

Wow... Five minutes before you posted that, I had walked away from the computer, and was thinking how exactly it was like 1984.  Not completely for all public, but for the many staff members who lived with other staff members, absolutely.  There's nothing like being watched at all times by people who are expected to write reports on you, literally, if you sneeze (PTS).

Public disconnections are not used in any weak form, but they are used in the strongest form of all, when an Ethics Order calls you an SP, thereby commanding all CoS members to disconnect from you.

Joe_Lynn
Joe_Lynn

The same could be said for Lewis Carrol, despite Ron's preemption of Alice :)

"Off with his head!"

NCSP
NCSP

To take kind of a tangent to your point about learning after Scientology, I've often thought that it might be an interesting or helpful exercise for people leaving Scientology to read Plato. Not because he refutes Scientology or holds the secrets of the universe or anything, but because -- unlike Hubbard! -- he is such a model of clear thinking, coherent argumentation, and graceful rhetoric.  And intellectual honesty! Actual wisdom, as opposed to self-satisfied blathering and outright gibberish.  I can only imagine it would be a profoundly refreshing experience.

Joe_Lynn
Joe_Lynn

(PS - This is the 'philosophy' that Marty Rathbun *still* promotes and defends)

Joe_Lynn
Joe_Lynn

Bear in mind that, per L. Ron Hubbard's 'philosophy', noone at less than 2.0 on the Tone Scale should have any Civil Rights at all (that's practically word for word)  and, while it might be possible to be above 2.0 on the Tone Scale and *not* be a Scientologist, it would be iffy, and, to be *against* Scientology would definitely be below.

There's nothing secret about that.  It's in Hubbard's writings from the '50s.  As well as prescriptions to save humanity by *deleting* anyone under 2.0 on His 'Tone Scale'

Joe_Lynn
Joe_Lynn

No, I know Mary knows better.  I thought she could have better stated it.  Mary's pretty clued in.

NCSP
NCSP

I meant that JustCallMeMary knew it was a hoax. The way JoeLynn responded, it sounded like he thought she thought there was a "real" Piltdown Man.

Joe_Lynn
Joe_Lynn

Check Scientology references for 'Pink Legs' and realize that, whacky they may be, but, Scientology is also about being 'fabian' and unseen.  Public executions?  They don't even do 'public' disconnections, and that is the core sacrament.

But, you don't need to know sociology or anthropology to understand Scientology.  It can be done with literature:

Scientology = '1984'The Sea Org = 'Lord of the Flies'

NCSP
NCSP

That's a great point. Unfortunately, general literacy on those subjects is not very widespread.

Xenu
Xenu

Most Scientologists know nothing of anthro, sociology or psychology.  Taking my first sociology classes, as an ex-cultie, was like a bolt out of the blue, because it was the first time I'd really examined social control mechanisms.  Every society and group has some of them, but Scientology has all of them, in the most extreme possible forms.  Well, almost all.  They've never done public executions.

Endscientology
Endscientology

Yes, I was asking that question knowing that Piltdown Man is a hoax.  Thanks NCSP for the great answers.  I appreciate the explanation to my questions.  

In regards to one question - I don't understand how anyone that has read "History of Man" who has read any basic anthropology book published after 1952 can take it seriously.  Now the same could be said about the Bible and the two creation theories that were in Genesis 1 & 2.  The written word is up for a lifetime of theological debate.

I just find it fitting that Hubbard wrote a theory around the Piltdown Man, which was exposed as a con (in 1953) after his book was published in 1952.  I guess it takes one to know one.

Joe_Lynn
Joe_Lynn

Kind of like Scientology was a 'real' fixit for all that ails ya :)  Except that Scientology was more like a preternatural trojan horse

NCSP
NCSP

I think she means "real" in the sense of "the actual Piltdown man" (which I'm sure she realizes was a hoax) as opposed to a label for a transitional species between ape and human.

NCSP
NCSP

Thanks for the clarification!

Joe_Lynn
Joe_Lynn

There *was* no 'real piltdown man', except in Ron's 'philosophy' :)

JustCallMeMary
JustCallMeMary

Edited:Terrific job answering his questions! One point though. The Piltdown man described in the book as an obsession to bite or eat, attributed to a creature similar to but not the (add 'original' & delete "real") Piltdown Man (add: of the 1912 hoax. )

It is discussed on wikipedia under  the category Scientology: A History of Man.

Readers might not know that Operation Clambake website at xenu (dot) net was named after The Clam, which is also mentioned in detail in the book:

From wiki " The Clam itself is "a deadly incident" involving a "scalloped-lip, white- shelled creature" which suffered from a severe split personality or "double-hinge problem. One hinge wishes to stay open, the other tries to close, thus conflict occurs." According to Hubbard, the hinges of the Clam "later become the hinges of the human jaw" and the Clam's method of reproducing using spores is said to be responsible for toothache. In one of the most famous passages of the book, Hubbard advised that'Should you desire to confirm this, describe to some uninitiated person the death of a clam without saying what you are describing. "Can you imagine a clam sitting on the beach, opening and closing its shell very rapidly?" (Make a motion with your thumb and forefinger of a rapid opening and closing). The victim may grip his jaws with his hand and feel quite upset. He may even have to have a few teeth pulled: At the very least he will argue as to whether or not the shell stays open at the end or closed. And he will, with no hint of the death aspect of it, talk about the "poor clam" and he will feel quite sad emotionally.' This is Scientology, lol

NCSP
NCSP

Thanks. That's what I figure, too, but I wanted to answer his/her question. What I have read of "History of Man" is pretty wild! I plan to read it all someday when I need a good laugh. :)

Xenu
Xenu

Disagree?  No, you pretty much nailed it.  The Piltdown Man thing is of very little importance to most Scientologists, who have only read A History of Man if they were required to, and probably forgot it all immediately afterward.  The part about all Scientologists being fundamentalists is of far more significance.

Xenu
Xenu

Marty doesn't seem to like exes.  You should probably consider his insult as a badge of honor, shared with Gerry, John P., Dennis, Pooks, and many others.

NCSP
NCSP

Ha, I'm not even an ex! I wasn't insulting Hubbard or anything; I just suggested on his blog that raw scans of documents he posts might be more useful than transcriptions. And I know I said it nicely, because I wouldn't have been "covertly" hostile if I hadn't! (I'm also gay, so the 1.1 thing stung a little, even though I know he didn't mean it that way. He had no way of knowing.)

I did wonder afterward if I owed him money for his expert "diagnosis."

And btw, I am 100% a fan of Mosey. That lady is awesome, and she didn't ask for any of this shit.

dennis l erlich
dennis l erlich

After someone tries to sliem me on a public forum using my children, I really don't consider that person a good source of advice.  So stuff it, Orc.

Theoracle
Theoracle

Your obvious , evil intentions towards Marty don't put you on higher ground Dennis. You are working to unmock him.  Since you are playing the game you accuse him of, certainly  you can see how you yourself are not above such things.  I think if you could move off your own mission to harm and destroy someone else, you could start to feel better in general.

Endscientology
Endscientology

I was trying to sound like mean ole Marty.  He loves to throw in deriding monikers like "Boy" and accuse people of being low-toned.  I obviously shouldn't attempt mimicking him (it doesn't seem that you picked up on that) and stick to mocking him!

dennis l erlich
dennis l erlich

Low-toned rhetoric?  Try speaking inglis Ends.  No, he just hasn't been harassing anybody for several years so no one has challenged his bs.

NCSP
NCSP

A: You're a J&D, NCG troll! LRH was tha man!!! I think you're OSA!! Lalalalala I can't hear you! [YouTube video of late-career Eric Clapton song]

(I hope I got the Martyblog-speak down ok. In reality, the answer to your question is *one single OT*, which of course means none of them, in Scientology or out.)

Joe_Lynn
Joe_Lynn

PS, John Peeler, who was recruited into the Sea Org at 12 (following failed recruitment at 9) was one of the people who actually revealed the abuse at 'Int Base', writing as BTS2FREE, along with Marc Headley (as Blown for Good) *before* the St. Petersburg Times story that launched Marty Rathbun to fame, when he corroborated at least parts of what they'd had the courage to tell.

As little as he could get away with.

Joe_Lynn
Joe_Lynn

How many Independent Scientologists does it take to handle 7 billion Wogs?

Joe_Lynn
Joe_Lynn

Don't be silly.  John isn't a Scientologist.  He's not an 'Independent Scientologist' (the approximately 200 clam strong faction who actually support Marty Rathbun,) nor a 'Freezoner' or 'Zonie' or even an 'Independent Fielder' (the label Marty most recently attempted to coopt in Hamburg)

John is an *ex* Scientologist, by his own definition, and that means he's a NCG (No Case Gain) hater and degraded being.  And, as such, there is no reason his statements should be allowed in any 'high theta' discussion.

That's how it works.

Endscientology
Endscientology

I'd love to read a joke on his blog, just once.  I do love the new acronyms he give the murderous midget, which illustrates his sardonic demeaning ability.  Some levity would be nice, though.  

It would be nice to see himself distance himself from the humorless robots with something like....."There was a short man from INT, he flung fists to think he was IT,  Secret accounts are his pay, and his farce mocks all gays; Bubba's love and jail is his final stint."        

JustCallMeMary
JustCallMeMary

This definately an issue that I don't think some of the readers at Marty's blog are aware of. The recent editing of John Peeler's comment was irresponsible and spiteful. Fortunately John posted the full coment over at ESMB under his nic bts2free. One can read it at the thread linked below.

Banned from MartyLand 13th August 2011 03:53 AM bts2freeh t t p : / /w w w (dot) forum.exscn (dot) net /showthread(dot) php?24299-Banned-from-MartyLand

Joe_Lynn
Joe_Lynn

"He just hasn't taken a crap in eight years. "

You say that as if it's a 'bad' thing.  It's all about 'havingness'

Endscientology
Endscientology

BOY, you are just propagating the low-toned rhetoric.  He is not wound up tight.  He just hasn't taken a crap in eight years.

chuckalug
chuckalug

He Is also quick to delete post that don't conform to his narrow definition of open communication and the free exchange of ideas.... 

dennis l erlich
dennis l erlich

His replies and reactions to anyone who even remotely challenges his moral superiority are proof enuf for me, Michael.

Michael Fairman
Michael Fairman

If you believe that, Dennis you don't know your ass from your elbow.

dennis l erlich
dennis l erlich

Marty is wound up tight.  Don't tell him anything he dont wanna hear.  He's libel to bust a mainspring at you.

TonyOrtega
TonyOrtega

Good start on next week's award!

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