Jesse Prince Back From the Brink; Scientology Petition Takes Off: It's The Thursday Stats Roundup!

JessePrince2.jpg
Jesse is back!
There's been a lot of disturbing news for Scientology watchers to sift through lately -- what with mothers separated from their sons, and a woman stalked because she's trying to design a better ice-maker, it's been a weird and depressing week.

But last night, we were stunned by a rare helping of unadulterated joy: Jesse Prince announced that he's kicked cancer's ass!

After the jump, we'll see what Jesse had to say about it as we round up today's "Thursday 2pm Stats," when Scientology's orgs do their weekly accounting: just how did this week stack up for the church?

During our big countdown, we had this to say about Jesse and his huge contribution to educating the public about Scientology:

Jesse Prince fled the Int base in 1992 and didn't start speaking out about Scientology for six years. But then he had a lot to say: how he was once Inspector General of the Religious Technology Center, making him one of the most powerful people in Scientology, and was a witness as David Miscavige wrested control of the church following L. Ron Hubbard's death. As a critic, he faced fierce retaliation, including a Kafkaesque marijuana misdemeanor prosecution that was intended to derail his being a witness in the Lisa McPherson civil trial. Prince was also an influential speaker in Germany, but has been dealing with serious health issues lately.

We alluded, there at the end, to what he had heard was actually very serious: Prince has been fighting cancer that had spread to several parts of his body.

But then, last night, came this stunning news at Jesse's blog:

I'd had tumors on my tonsils, liver, kidney, spleen, chest, under my arms, and in my groin area. This is when I discovered that no one really expected me to live through the treatment...I had Stage Four cancer in my spinal and groin area. The next huge surprise came when my Dr. told me that the tumors were all gone! All areas came back clean. Just looking at the expression on my Oncologist's face as she told me showed me how shocked and delighted she was with the results herself....I have been fighting for my life for months and now I knew I'd be okay. As the weight of the battle began to melt I wept for the first time. I wept not in sadness or fear. I wept in gratitude for surviving and my life has new meaning.

He goes on to write that he has one remaining test to confirm remission in his spine, and he's still dealing with serious problems as a result of his fight, including a spinal fracture. But his spirits are so improved, he's talking about getting back to finishing a book.

Damn, Jesse, that is amazing news.

Thursday's Stats: Upstat or Downstat? I'm not cynical enough to think that anyone at the Church of Scientology wished Jesse ill or would be put out to hear that he's recovering so nicely. (Am I wrong? I'll surely hear about it in the comments.) What we have is obviously a huge upstat for Jesse himself and for the ex-Scientologist community as a whole, with a small downstat for the church -- if only because now Jesse will be able to finish his book.


Story #2: It's not paranoia if somebody's really after you

We reported back in April that former church executives Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder had been notified by their mobile phones carrier, T-Mobile, that someone had tried to hack into their records.

This weekend, Rathbun put up the documents to back up that claim.

Each of them received letters from T-Mobile with similar language:

We have concluded that an unknown person called a T-Mobile Customer Care representative, and through deceptive actions (often labeled "pretexting"), convinced the T-Mobile representative to provide the caller with access to your www.t-mobile.com account. The employee who was deceived into providing this information to the caller has been provided further education and discipline....We do not know the motive for seeking access to your account...

T-Mobile doesn't know the motive? Well, Rathbun and Rinder have little doubt who was behind the illegal attempt to get their phone records.

Thursday's Stats: Upstat or Downstat? Another log on the fire for what's been a major conflagration of "fair game" reporting lately. The same people -- those who dare to criticize Scientology -- keep finding themselves followed, surveilled, slandered among neighbors or business colleagues, and generally made to feel hunted. Every bit of it proves to be a growing set of downstats for the church.


Story #3: Almblad explains himself.

After Robert Almblad and his clean-ice machine had appeared at Rathbun's blog and in two stories here at Runnin' Scared, Almblad finally spoke for himself this week.

He explained how he was involved as a Scientologist in an early 1980s movement to halt the takeover by David Miscavige, he was still trying to move up the upper-level end of Scientology's "Bridge" of spiritual steps as late as 2005, and after leaving the church now considers himself an independent Scientologist.

Thursday's Stats: Upstat or Downstat? If the basic story remains the same -- Scientology is aggressively trying to stop Almblad from bringing to market a clean-ice machine that could save lives in hospitals, simply because he hired church critic Mike Rinder -- Almblad's additional details add another layer to the story. Almblad had told me that he thinks the church wants to stop him and his technology regardless of Rinder's presence at his company. His essay this week might help explain why that is the case. Another significant downstat for the church, which looks ridiculous for its panicky attempts to keep Almblad from meeting with clients.

Bonus Downstat: Almblad's girlfriend, Susan Clickner, waded into the shark tank that is the forum at WhyWeProtest.net to answer additional questions after our story about her. Despite some caustic broadsides from the usual suspects, Clickner seems to have come through it quite well.


Story #4: Hey, Obama -- Dox or STFU

On Tuesday, we pointed out that Graham Berry's petition to the White House -- requesting that the Obama administration explain what happened to an FBI investigation into Scientology's abuses -- still faced a major hurdle of about 1,500 signatures with only 6 days to go.

Since then, signatures picked up considerably, and by early this morning (when I'm actually typing this in the underground bunker), fewer than 700 signatures were needed to bring the total to the required 5,000 by Monday's deadline.

While some over at WWP gave us a pat on the back for that sudden upsurge in votes, we'd like to point out that plenty of others have been publicizing the petition, including Rathbun, several times, at his blog. Who knows what lit the fire. We only know that success looks increasingly realistic, and we may actually get to see President Obama explain why so many complaints about Scientology's practices have not resulted in more government action.

Thursday's Stats: Upstat or Downstat? While it's tempting to call the simple gathering of so many signatures a big downstat for the church, we really won't know how this turns out for Scientology until Obama's administration speaks. And you can bet when that happens, we'll be ready with the call -- upstat or downstat!


Story #5: The Nation sort of endorses Janet Reitman

The Nation turned to New Haven religion writer Mark Oppenheimer for a lengthy (and very tardy) review of Janet Reitman's Inside Scientology and Hugh Urban's The Church of Scientology. Oppenheimer doesn't seem to like Reitman's book all that much, but sort of endorses it anyway.

Along the way, Oppenheimer does his usual thing and tells us Scientology really isn't that bad, and he asserts that there exists a species which no one else I know has actually spotted in the wild: the casual Scientologist. This happy person, who just samples a seminar here and picks up a book there, sounds like an asset to society. Gosh, what's all the fuss about?

Thursday's Stats: Upstat or Downstat? Somehow, Oppenheimer managed to get himself crosswise with a church attorney, but rest assured, Mr. Miscavige, Oppenheimer always manages to make Scientology sound like something enduring an unfair amount of noise and fury. Verdict? No question, despite numerous little slaps on the wrist, this article is an upstat for the church.

Bonus Downstat Michael Shermer, writing at Scientific American, offers a more glowing endorsement of the two books, and throws in an anecdote from Harlan Ellison, who says he witnessed the legendary moment when, the story goes, Hubbard and other writers discussed how they might make money inventing a religion. Hubbard's Dianetics soon followed.


Overall, it's mostly been a miserable week for David Miscavige's crew. And check back often, because we're working on several really big stories that we hope to have ready soon. The momentum here at the underground bunker is really palpable. So please, keep those tips coming!


The Top 25 People Crippling Scientology
#1: L. Ron Hubbard
#2: David Miscavige
#3: Marty Rathbun
#4: Tom Cruise
#5: Joe Childs and Tom Tobin
#6: Anonymous
#7: Mark Bunker
#8: Mike Rinder
#9: Jason Beghe
#10: Lisa McPherson
#11: Nick Xenophon (and other public servants)
#12: Tommy Davis (and other hapless church executives)
#13: Janet Reitman (and other journalists)
#14: Tory Christman (and other noisy ex-Scientologists)
#15: Andreas Heldal-Lund (and other old time church critics)
#16: Marc and Claire Headley, escapees of the church's HQ
#17: Jefferson Hawkins, the man behind the TV volcano
#18: Amy Scobee, former Sea Org executive
#19: The Squirrel Busters (and the church's other thugs and goons)
#20: Trey Parker and Matt Stone (and other media figures)
#21: Kendrick Moxon, attorney for the church
#22: Jamie DeWolf (and other L. Ron Hubbard family members)
#23: Ken Dandar (and other attorneys who litigate against the church)
#24: David Touretzky (and other academics)
#25: Xenu, galactic overlord


Tony Ortega is the editor-in-chief of The Village Voice. Since 1995, he's been writing about Scientology at several publications.

tortega@villagevoice.com | @VoiceTonyO | Facebook: Tony Ortega

Keep up on all of our New York news coverage at this blog, Runnin' Scared


SCIENTOLOGY IN THE VILLAGE VOICE

[All recent stories] | [Top 25 People Crippling Scientology] | [Commenters of the Week] [Thursday 2pm Stats!]

FEATURED INVESTIGATIONS

[Scientology spokesman Tommy Davis secretly recorded discussing "disconnection"]
[Benjamin Ring, LA deputy sheriff, wants you to spend your 401K on Scientology]
[Scientologists: How many of them are there, anyway?]
[Scientology hates clean ice: The "Fair Game" operation that should turn your stomach]
[Scientology hates clean ice, part 2: Another target, and the web as weapon]

MARTY RATHBUN AND THE SIEGE OF SOUTH TEXAS

[Scientology has Rathbun arrested] | [Rathbun and Mark Bunker reveal surprising ties]
In Germany with Ursula Caberta: [Announcing plans] | [Press conference] | [Making news about Tom Cruise, Bill Clinton, and Tony Blair] | [Post-trip interview]
The Squirrel Busters: [Goons with cameras on their heads] | [Rathbun's open letter to neighbors] | [Ingleside on the Bay, Texas rallies to Rathbun's cause] | [Squirrel Buster's claim to be making a "documentary"] | [VIDEO: "On a Boat"] | ["Anna" sent to creep out Monique Rathbun] | [Squirrel Busters go hillbilly] | [A videographer blows the whistle on the goon squad] | [Ed Bryan, OT VIII, shows the power of Scientology's highest levels]

SCIENTOLOGY SPYING AND "FAIR GAME"

[Secret Scientology documents spell out spying operation against Marc Headley]
[Scientology's West U.S. spies list revealed] | [Scientology's enemies list: Are you on it?]
Spy operation against Washington Post writer Richard Leiby: [Part 1] | [Part 2]
[A Scientology spy comes clean: Paulien Lombard's remarkable public confession]
[Scientology advertises for writers in Freedom magazine]
[Accidental leak shows Scientology spy wing plans to "handle" the Voice]
[Lori Hodgson and Disconnection: "No one's going to take my eternity away"]

SCIENTOLOGY AND CELEBRITIES

["Tom Cruise told me to talk to a bottle"] | [Tom Cruise likes coconut cake] | [Tom Cruise has a sense of humor] | ["Tom Cruise not a kook!"] | [Paulette Cooper on Tom Cruise]
[Paul Haggis, director of Crash, issues an ultimatum, leaves the church]
[Character actor Jason Beghe defects noisily] | [Actor Michael Fairman reveals his "suppressive person" declaration] | [Michael Fairman talks to the Voice]
[Giovanni Ribisi as David Koresh: Scientology-Branch Davidian link makes sense]
[Russell Brand weds ex-Scientologists in wild ceremony] | [Skip Press on Haggis]
[Placido Domingo Jr.: Scientology's retaliation is "scary and pathetic"]
Grant Cardone, NatGeo's "Turnaround King": [Doing Scientology's dirty work?] | [Milton Katselas complained about Cardone's smear job] | [Cardone runs to Huffpo]
[Philip Boyd, Saving Grace actor, rips "the business that is Scientology"]

JANET REITMAN'S INSIDE SCIENTOLOGY

[Our review of Inside Scientology] | [An interview with Janet Reitman] | [A report from Reitman's first book tour appearance] | [At the Half-King: Reitman not afraid]
[Scientology doesn't like Inside Scientology] | [Q&A at Washington Post]
[A roundup of Reitman's print reviews, and why isn't she on television more?]

HUGH URBAN'S THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY

[A review of Urban's scholarly history of the church] | [An interview with Hugh Urban]

EX-SCIENTOLOGISTS SPEAK OUT

[Marc Headley: "Tom Cruise told me to talk to a bottle"] | [The Nancy Many interview]
[Sympathy for the Devil: Tory Christman's Story] | [Jeff Hawkins' Counterfeit Dreams]
[86 Million Thin Dimes: The Lawrence Wollersheim Saga] | [Mike Rinder on spying]

OVERSEAS NEWS

[Scientology dodges a bullet in Australia] | [Scientology exec Jan Eastgate arrested]
[All hell breaks loose in Israel] | [Scientology sees fundraising gold in the UK riots]
[Aussie former rugby pro Chris Guider calls David Miscavige "toxic" and "violent"]
[Stephen Cox, UK church newbie, pledges 20K pounds] | [Biggi Reichert: A German Lisa McPherson?] | [The Birmingham trove: 7,000 internal e-mails]

ODD VIDEOS AND ODDER NEWS

[Scientology singalong, "We Stand Tall"] | [Captain Bill Robertson and "Galactic Patrol"]
[Scientology wins a major award!] | [Scientology wants your money: Meet Dede!]
[Birmingham in the House! The "Ideal" dance mix] | [Scientology and the Nation of Islam]
[When Scientology was hip] | [Sad: David Miscavige makes fun of his own fundraisers]
[Freedom magazine parodies The New Yorker. Hilarity ensues.]
[Scientology surf report: Anonymous parties outside the New York "org"]

THE VIEW INSIDE THE BUBBLE

[A scientologist's letter to the Voice and its readers] | [Scientology silent birth]
[Tad Reeves: Scientology might listen to this guy] | [More Tad Reeves and family]
[Scientology never forgets: A heartwarming telemarketing holiday miracle]
[Scientology High School, Dating and Super Powers!]

My Voice Nation Help
46 comments
mjm
mjm

I'm starting to think Murdoch and co. are publishing Scilon propaganda. in The Sun today, they had a puff piece on the still-uncompleted Super Power Building. and in today's Daily Fail, they had stories Travolta getting denied a booth at a KFC near St. Hill Manor (more than likely a bs story, he's in NYC prepping the Gotti movie) and the legendary Dame Vera Lynn getting hoodwinked into singing at the IAS Ball at St. Hill Manor hosted by... Kirstie Alley (well, based on her tweets she has been in Paris and headed back into Rome. so it's possible she wasn't there.) nice try News Corp...

they also said Tom Cruise was at the IAS event but he's still in Pittsburgh shooting that movie. unless there's pics of the celebs and Tiny Terror at the event, I'm calling bs on their stories.

Hartley Patterson
Hartley Patterson

"I'm not cynical enough to think that anyone at the Church of Scientology wished Jesse ill or would be put out to hear that he's recovering so nicely."

I am. At the Lisa McPherson civil case hearings, ex-member Robert Vaughan Young was subpoenaed to testify by the cult so they could gloat over his terminal cancer. The fanatics after all believe that "70 percent of man’s ills are the reaction of the body against a painful mental image picture".

Anon A
Anon A

Yay! - 5,200 and counting on the petition.  Now let's see how many bonus sigs it can get by Monday.

Markfisher57
Markfisher57

Just went over the 5,000 signature mark!!!!  Now time to hold Obama's feet to the fire and get them to do something.

dennis l erlich
dennis l erlich

I trained Jess on Flag and was his senior before he went on his management adventure.  He had sweet disposition and a gentle way with people before he went 'over the rainbow."  They tried to twist him into something vicious.  Fortunately, could not be made to go far over that line.  His escape from and subsequent work to stop the multitude of abuses he witnessed has gladdened the hearts of many exes.

God bless him, his family and close friends looking after him.  He deserves our care.

red pill
red pill

You should have heard what Mike Rinder had to say when SVY was dying of cancer.

sizzle8
sizzle8

A very good week!

Cue the fiddle.....

Leprachaun dance!

Carmen
Carmen

Oppenheimer should be made aware that Ron said there ARE no "casual Scientologists."You don't get to browse, like it's some sort of self-realization cafeteria, you must swallow the whole thing.

If you try to pick and choose, you will be hounded out of the org by people trying desperately to sell you something so they can get their commission. Failing that, they'll accuse you of being a "bad Scientologist" (now there's an oxymoron!) who is holding back planetary clearing by their own selfishness.

Phanalia
Phanalia

"Oppenheimer does his usual thing and tells us Scientology really isn't that bad, and he asserts that there exists a species which no one else I know has actually spotted in the wild: the casual Scientologist. This happy person, who just samples a seminar here and picks up a book there, sounds like an asset to society. Gosh, what's all the fuss about?"

--- I was married to and tried to bring up children with a "casual scientologist" for almost 4 decades now.  That whole time he was more interested in giving money to Scientology than supporting his family.  His association with Scientology was very harmful and believe me, no asset to society at all.  In fact, he had to declare bankruptcy because the "borrowed' money from credit cards, then -- surprise, suprise!  all that training that he bought with it didn't make him "more able" after all.  Happy?  He wasn't a bit happy.  He spent his whole life blaming the fact that no one would give him a fortune to spend on Scientology as the reason he couldn't ever be successful and happy.  A seminar here and a book there? That's not how it works.

JustCallMeMary
JustCallMeMary

Congrats to Jesse. He feels other's prayers helped. Lets keep praying.

NCSP
NCSP

I'm as skeptical of Hubbard as anyone -- just check my previous comments -- but frankly Harlan Ellison would claim to have been present at the Crucifixion if he thought he could get away with it.

Jgg
Jgg

  Tony, I think "casual scientologist" is an oxymoron.  LRH tolerated no dissent; any Sea Org member who complains about anything is RPFed.  That is the problem.  Independent scientologists pick and choose what they agree with, think is original, etc.; but that is exactly what Co$ opposes.

foolmenomore
foolmenomore

Tony,

Your are wrong regards to the "church" hoping for Jessies recovery. 

After nearly 2 decades in  the Sea Org I can say that with 100% certainty   Church perspective would be that "Jessie... pulled it in" or that due to Jessie suppressive actions against the church Jessie (himself spiritually) crippled HIMSELF  in an attempt to "stop  HIMSELF for harming the church"

On balance there would be no empathy for this man;  though certainly there would be random individual members who (very privately) would feel bad for him. 

Church survival is always considered paramount to all things!  A detractors physical demise would be viewed as good news.    This is the reality and sickness that is Scientology.

mirele
mirele

I don't know how Mark Oppenheimer can claim there's such a creature as a "casual Scientologist" today. The way Davey, his Damnation Navy and the people in the orgs are regging for money for courses, Idle Orgs, books, Hubbard lectures, Freewinds conventions, etc. etc., any "casual Scientologists" will soon be driven to change their phone numbers. So yeah, I'm calling bullsh*t on that one.

mrgreebly
mrgreebly

"Oppenheimer makes sound like an asset to society. Gosh, what's all the fuss about?"

Yeah what is all the fuss about?

Perhaps we should ask the 1000s of exes, indies and freezoners who have left or the protesters who get harassed, or the IRS, or the ones who passed away(oh wait we can't ask them, ask thier families?). Can we ask the ones who settled out of court? oh no perhaps not.

Perhaps we should just forget about it all and highlight the HUGE public benefit that the Co$ has provided to the world over the last 50 years! Make a list Mr Oppenheimer, perhaps ask the "casual scientologist" who funds the IAS or buying of real estate.

Sign the US Government Petition to investigate the Church of Scientology

and it's abuses. The Government must give a response.

It’s all about a volume of voices, don’t be afraid anymore it is your right

to get answers. Independent Scientologists have signed, anyone can sign,

join those voices.

If problems registering go here 1st:

wwws dot whitehouse dot gov/user/register

+back to the Petition:

wh dot gov/4Os

If the Sign button is grey and not green simply log out and log back in.

AB101
AB101

Nice try, mjm.

JT was in EG, and the KFC story has been confirmed.

But do you know who wasn't in East Grinstead last weekend? The "Occupy" crowd. Despite your predictions.

Seems your information is about as reliable as Scientology's 8 million member claim. Or maybe you really don't know any better; after all OSA are trained not to pay any attention to the scary Internet when they shitpost all over it.

Jgg
Jgg

  mjm, Fox News is an oxymoron, just like Church of Scientology.

Ron
Ron

In his Manual of Justice (1959), Hubbard did a bit of gloating over the misfortunes of his perceived enemies.

"Dianetics and Scientology are self protecting sciences. If one attacks them, one attacks all the know-how of the mind. In caves the bank. It's gruesome to see sometimes. At this instance there are men hiding in terror on Earth because they found out what they were attacking. There are men dead because they attacked us - for instance Dr Joe Winter. He simply realized what he did and died. There are men bankrupt because they attacked us - Purcell, Ridgeway, Ceppos."

TonyOrtega
TonyOrtega

Wow. I mean, really. Wow. That's a lot of signatures in a short amount of time. As I said in the article above, we really won't know how this will turn out until the Administration speaks. But still, an impressive achievement after it seemed to stall a bit.

CofS Exit Zone
CofS Exit Zone

He also needs schooled that they do require one to renounce other religious ties once a high enough level is reached. Reference Michael "OTVIIIMike" Pattinson personal accounts & court transcripts.

But aside from those two small gripes - I actually like Oppenheimer's review. Strikes me as fairly well balanced & he drops dox in the middle of page 2 that shows he wrastled with the Scientology PR machine enough to be rightfully entitled to his objective take on things.

Also... he gets some slack & bonus points in my notebook for saying "It is religion porn" - lmao!

MarcAbian
MarcAbian

Do you have evidence that Ellison fabricated the story, or are you just making unfounded allegations?

sketto
sketto

I don't believe you. You're not skeptical of Hubbard. People either deal with the evidence that Hubbard was a fraud or they ignore it and go back to practicing Scientology. No skepticism on either side.

Rather, I think you just want to attack Ellison without evidence. Because dealing with the reality that Hubbard intentionally created your religion to make money would be hard to face.

Xenu
Xenu

If it makes you feel better, Theodore Sturgeon and Sam Moskowitz said much the same as Ellison.  Others who heard Hubbard talk about starting a religion for money included Lloyd Eshbach, Sam Merwin and Milton Rothman.

Torychristman
Torychristman

Tony,   As you've well learned since starting to just educate people on the "church" of $cientology....they are Far worse than you think. After 30 years "in", and 11 out,I agree with foolmenomore re Jesse. (Of course now they'll never admit to that!)

When he was sick ..no doubt behind many closed doors were smug "OT's"/members of C of $-- clinking glasses, and giving high fives: "He pulled it in". His illness proved they're doing the right thing...the "Tech" works, they're in the right place. Truly it's hard to believe unless you've experienced it, and I'm sure there will be those who were "in" who never did experience such. I personally was never happy to hear anyone was sick...but then I have Epilepsy, so I lived with their hypocrisy, hatred of any illness, and lack of compassion while I was "in".

I just talked with Jesse---he sounds better than I even imagined.  We laughed like two kids. :) Friends, love, family---that IS what it's all about. Blessings to ALL, and again, thanks to Tony and the Village Voice for staying on all of this. My love, Tory/Magoo

MarkStark
MarkStark

I didn't think the article was too bad, but this concept of "casual Scientologist" is lame, and that Reitman should have interviewed more of them. Reitman's insights explain why Scientology does not allow the people from whom they are extracting money to be casual about it.

Hubbard made it forbidden to talk about Scientology for obvious reasons. If people hear too much about what they really believe, or the quackery they employ, they won't sign up and pay to be brainwashed themselves. Imagine if before joining up, people knew Hubbard's ideas on one thing, like Xenu, or the process of the Introspection Rundown. Unless they were nuts, they wouldn't sign up.

The cult creates such an environment of guilt, fear and control, built into the system, that no members of the "Church," casual (few of those that there may be) or otherwise, can talk about it, without getting in trouble.

It's a fiction created for sales purposes, that there are thousands of practicing Protestants etc, who dabble avidly in Scientology, and never see any conflict. Opp seems to believe that part of Scilon PR.

Xenu
Xenu

Oppenheimer clearly never read KSW.

"When somebody enrols, consider he or she has joined up for the duration of the universe -- never permit an 'open-minded' approach. If they're going to quit let them quit fast. If they enrolled, they're aboard, and if they're aboard, they're here on the same terms as the rest of us -- win or die in the attempt. Never let them be half-minded about being Scientologists. The finest organizations in history have been tough, dedicated organizations. Not one namby-pamby bunch of panty-waist dilettantes have ever made anything. It's a tough universe. The social veneer makes it seem mild. But only the tigers survive -- and even they have a hard time. We'll survive because we are tough and are dedicated. When we do instruct somebody properly he becomes more and more tiger. When we instruct half-mindedly and are afraid to offend, scared to enforce, we don't make students into good Scientologists and that lets everybody down. When Mrs. Pattycake comes to us to be taught, turn that wandering doubt in her eye into a fixed, dedicated glare and she'll win and we'll all win. Humor her and we all die a little. The proper instruction attitude is, "You're here so you're a Scientologist. Now we're going to make you into an expert auditor no matter what happens. We'd rather have you dead than incapable."

JustCallMeMary
JustCallMeMary

The several scientologists Oppenheimer writes that he knows probably treated him in a casual way on the subject because, in Scientology, all reporters are considered PTS and degraded beings and contact with such is regulated by policies. I mean, what onlines scientologist is going to  disseminate to or open up personally to a reporter? None.

MarthaWiggins
MarthaWiggins

561 signatures to go!we'll make it by Monday.

NCSP
NCSP

No, and it's just as much gossip as Ellison's story. H.E. is well known as a great raconteur who doesn't let the facts get in the way of a good story -- it's not a slam to say that; it's an image he plays up to. I don't dislike the guy, and he may well have been right on this. I just wouldn't take his word on it without corroboration, which Xenu helpfully provided above.

Warrior
Warrior

Suggested reading: the Sam Moscowitz Affidavit --http [colon slash slash] www [dot] cosvm [dot] org [slash] ssmakemn [dot] htm

Affidavit of Sam Moskowitz

AFFIDAVIT STATE OF NEW JERSEY ) ) ss.: COUNTY OF ESSEX ) SAM MOSKOWITZ, being duly sworn, deposes and says: 1. My residence is 361 Roseville Avenue, Newark, New Jersey 07107, USA. I am fully familiar with the facts stated herein, and I submit this affidavit for use in a lawsuit which I understand is pending in the Federal Republic of Germany. 2. On November 7, 1948, I attended a meeting of the Eastern Science Fiction Association which was held at the Slovak Sokol located at 358 Morris Avenue, Newark, New Jersey, USA. There were approximately 23 persons present at the meeting. 3. I was the Director of the Eastern Science Fiction Association and had invited Mr. L. Ron Hubbard to speak at the November 7, 1948 meeting. 4. After speaking for about an hour at the meeting, Mr. Hubbard answered questions from the audience. He made the following statement in response to a question about making money from writing: He made the "You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion." 5. After the meeting, a number of us took Mr. Hubbard to dinner at the Hickory Grill in Newark, New Jersey. Sam Moskowitz

NCSP
NCSP

Lol. I've never been a Scientologist. I've read lots of Hubbard and have never regarded his work (Scn and non-Scn) as anything other than sub-moronic tripe. "Skeptical" was a deliberate understatement.

I don't believe you know much about Ellison's reputation, which is that he's fondly regarded as a very talented but difficult guy who's in many ways a bs artist. See "Dreams with Sharp Teeth."

Love
Love

A real help of wisdom given to the society for free.

Ask Oprah Winfrey, she also provide the people whit notebooks for free.

Ron
Ron

Also Judith Merril and Fredrik Pohl. In second-hand accounts from them, there are references to the legendary "bar bet story" (not with Heinlein).

robinlandseadel
robinlandseadel

Note also "The Church of the New Revelation" in Robert Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land," aka "The Fosterites." The Fosterites appear to be a parody rendition of Scientology and were definitely "Only in it For The Money."

NCSP
NCSP

Thanks for that. I wasn't aware that the story had so many traceable sources.

SFF
SFF

Down to 42. I pity whoever is on Davey's lines tomorrow morning. Well, more than usual.

NCSP
NCSP

No harm done. I should have made it clearer in my comment that it was more a playful rib at Ellison than a defense of Hubbard. We're cool. :)

sketto
sketto

I still think it's not properly called "understatement" in the truest sense if you're the only one who knows it. But that wasn't the point of our comments, so I relent. 

As for your comments about Hubbard and Ellison, apparently I was wrong. I withdraw my comments.

NCSP
NCSP

I read Hubbard because his work is fascinating and often hilarious sub-moronic tripe. Where's your sense of fun? I also like to be well-informed about a subject before I criticize it as harshly as I've criticized Hubbard and Scientology.

As for Ellison's story, I don't necessarily doubt it -- it certainly rings true -- but frankly it's a little too "on the nose" and has the flavor of a well-polished party piece. It's not the kind of thing that one can verify or document anyway, although the corroboration Xenu gave above does help. Anecdotes like that are not necessarily to be disbelieved, but they're also not to be treated as gospel.

In the end, it doesn't matter a bit if Ellison's story is true or not. If you think anyone's opinion of Hubbard's integrity rises or falls based on whether he ever said that, then you need to read more about the man. Take away this story, and he was still an irredeemably awful person who continues to hurt thousands of people 25 years after his too-long-postponed death.

And understatement is precisely the word I meant to use. I'm not merely skeptical regarding Hubbard; I regard him as wholly unreliable on every subject.

sketto
sketto

Not sure if you understand understatement if that's what you care to call it.

Still, I have to wonder why your focus is on Ellison and not Hubbard. I've read about equal amounts of both, and in both cases, I got to a point where I felt I was wasting my time reading a poor author. I don't believe one needs to read a bad writer's entire awful canon before passing judgment and skipping the rest. But this is all a distraction, as perhaps you intend.

So, let's have you state it clearly. Do you reject Ellison's claim that Hubbard discussed Scientology as a way to make money via religion?

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