Philip Boyd, Saving Grace Actor, Rips "The Business That Is Scientology"

Categories: Scientology

"If I could save one person from buying into the business that is Scientology, then it would be worth you writing my story."

That's how actor Philip Boyd concluded an interview that I didn't even expect to happen.

Let me back up: I'm in Southern California for a school visit, and with some free time on my hands, I went to Santa Monica to meet some folks I talk to for our Scientology stories.

Through something of an accident, however, I was introduced to Boyd, an up-and-coming actor who has appeared or had recurring roles in several series (Saving Grace, Franklin and Bash, Knight Rider) and movies (Deadland, First Daughter).

And here's what's really remarkable about him: even though he was never publicly identified as a Scientologist, he left the church and decided it was time to speak out about it.

There's something of a cottage industry in trying to identify all of the television and movie actors who get pulled into Scientology. But I don't remember ever seeing Boyd's name listed among the various websites that engage in that pastime.

But for about two years, in 2007 and 2008, Boyd was among the pampered elite who take courses at the Hollywood Celebrity Centre, and he went regularly, seeing Tom Cruise there and also hanging out with Giovanni Ribisi.

Boyd told me that he had first encountered L. Ron Hubbard's book Dianetics years before and "thought it had good ideas." But he didn't actually join the organization until 2007, when his career was stalling because of a "toxic relationship," he says.

Taking the courses seemed to help get him back on track.

But despite that positive turn, Boyd says he felt odd about the way others acted around him.

"I never got to the point of pure excitement about L. Ron Hubbard," he says. "That was one of the things that kind of freaked me out was the way they thought of him."

At gala events, for example, crowds would cheer "Hip-hip-hooray" to Hubbard's portrait, dozens of times.

Boyd says he couldn't help feeling that it had parallels with a Nuremberg rally.

Another time, he encountered the word "enturbulation" in a Hubbard book. "I tried to look it up and realized it was something Hubbard invented," he says. (Hubbard used it to mean agitation or disruption.) Boyd asked a supervisor about it and says he was told, "Hubbard was highly educated, and used words that weren't on this planet."

Boyd says he found that pretty ridiculous.

He also had problems with Scientology's famous detox program, the "purification rundown." For days and days, he sat in a sauna, five hours at a time, while taking increasing doses of niacin.

"A girl passed out and was taken to the hospital," he says. "Then they wanted to charge her $300 for auditing to explain why she got sick." Boyd thought that was pretty ridiculous, too. "She ended up blowing as well," he says, using the Scientology word for "defecting."

After almost a month in the sauna, Boyd himself began to have problems.

"On the 29th day, I started throwing up. A lot. But they would tell me to go back in. When I did, after five minutes, I'd throw up again." For three days, it was the same. But Boyd says he could feel that he was hurting himself with the procedure. "I finally told them, 'I'm done.' I wanted no more part of it."

If he had doubts about Scientology's procedures, what really wore him down was the constant pressure for money and for the names of friends that might also want to take classes.

Boyd talks to the Voice
After each course that he completed, Boyd says he was ordered to turn over the names and e-mail addresses of friends who Scientology could go after. He refused, even after they made it plain to him that it was a required step to finish the course.

Also, he told me something about case files that I'd never heard before. "When you finished a course, and you went to start a new one, your case file -- your PC folder -- had to be transferred to a new supervisor."

Boyd said there was a $300 charge just for that to happen, for his file to be transferred from one supervisor to another. He shakes his head, trying to get across just how much it offended him.

Multiple times, he says, he was asked to join the Sea Org, the hardcore cadre of lifers who sign billion-year contracts and work 100 hour weeks for about 50 dollars a week.

"Are you kidding?" he says he asked them. There are no actors in the Sea Org.

"'At least watch the film,' they'd tell me. No!" he says, like it was the dumbest request in the world.

Boyd estimates that he spent about $20,000 in the short time he was in Scientology.

At one point, as his concerns grew, he says he sat down with a Sea Org member who was an assistant to celebrities. He says her name was Veronica.

"I told her, I don't feel like this is a religion. Every time I come here you ask me for more money and ask me to take more courses. It's more of a business than a religion. She said she was sorry I felt that way. I told her, if this is so great for the world, why don't you make it more affordable so more people can use it?"

The final straw, he says, came when his registrar -- the person assigned to getting money out of him -- asked for his bank account information so that money could be taken directly out of it.

"They told me all the other actors did it that way. They told me it was a way to help organize my finances," he says.

"It was less hassle for me, they said. Yeah, less hassle for them to rape my bank account."

Boyd walked away, but not without Scientology hounding him, multiple times a day, with phone calls.

"I changed my phone number after I left, and I never gave it to anyone at Scientology. But they would call me on the new cell number. How did you get this number? I'd ask them. 'It's on the sheet,' they would say." Supervisors were also calling him, but he would tell them off.

One thing he told them: he had seen Tommy Davis on CNN denying that Scientology had a policy of disconnection, but Boyd knew that the policy was used.

"So lying is part of what you do?" he would ask the people who called. Eventually, they gave up on him.

Boyd got away around the time that the infamous Tom Cruise video came out, in January 2008. I asked him what he thought when he saw it.

"I thought, thank God I'm not associated with them anymore."

Was he worried, I asked, that leaving the church might hurt his career?

"A part of me did, yes. But I've been doing great," he says.

He added that he thinks there are benefits to the self-help ideas in Scientology.

"But the business side of it, that should get them shut down."

The Top 25 People Crippling Scientology
#1: L. Ron Hubbard
#2: David Miscavige
#3: Marty Rathbun
#4: Tom Cruise
#5: Joe Childs and Tom Tobin
#6: Anonymous
#7: Mark Bunker
#8: Mike Rinder
#9: Jason Beghe
#10: Lisa McPherson
#11: Nick Xenophon (and other public servants)
#12: Tommy Davis (and other hapless church executives)
#13: Janet Reitman (and other journalists)
#14: Tory Christman (and other noisy ex-Scientologists)
#15: Andreas Heldal-Lund (and other old time church critics)
#16: Marc and Claire Headley, escapees of the church's HQ
#17: Jefferson Hawkins, the man behind the TV volcano
#18: Amy Scobee, former Sea Org executive
#19: The Squirrel Busters (and the church's other thugs and goons)
#20: Trey Parker and Matt Stone (and other media figures)
#21: Kendrick Moxon, attorney for the church
#22: Jamie DeWolf (and other L. Ron Hubbard family members)
#23: Ken Dandar (and other attorneys who litigate against the church)
#24: David Touretzky (and other academics)
#25: Xenu, galactic overlord

Tony Ortega is the editor-in-chief of The Village Voice. Since 1995, he's been writing about Scientology at several publications. | @VoiceTonyO | Facebook: Tony Ortega

Keep up on all of our New York news coverage at this blog, Runnin' Scared


[All recent stories] | [Top 25 People Crippling Scientology] | [Commenters of the Week]


[Scientology spokesman Tommy Davis secretly recorded discussing "disconnection"]
[Benjamin Ring, LA deputy sheriff, wants you to spend your 401K on Scientology]
[Scientologists: How many of them are there, anyway?]


[Scientology has Rathbun arrested] | [Rathbun and Mark Bunker reveal surprising ties]
In Germany with Ursula Caberta: [Announcing plans] | [Press conference] | [Making news about Tom Cruise, Bill Clinton, and Tony Blair] | [Post-trip interview]
The Squirrel Busters: [Goons with cameras on their heads] | [Rathbun's open letter to neighbors] | [Ingleside on the Bay, Texas rallies to Rathbun's cause] | [Squirrel Buster's claim to be making a "documentary"] | [VIDEO: "On a Boat"] | ["Anna" sent to creep out Monique Rathbun] | [Squirrel Busters go hillbilly] | [A videographer blows the whistle on the goon squad] | [Ed Bryan, OT VIII, shows the power of Scientology's highest levels]


[Secret Scientology documents spell out spying operation against Marc Headley]
[Scientology's West U.S. spies list revealed] | [Scientology's enemies list: Are you on it?]
Spy operation against Washington Post writer Richard Leiby: [Part 1] | [Part 2]
[A Scientology spy comes clean: Paulien Lombard's remarkable public confession]
[Scientology advertises for writers in Freedom magazine]
[Accidental leak shows Scientology spy wing plans to "handle" the Voice]


["Tom Cruise told me to talk to a bottle"] | [Tom Cruise likes coconut cake] | [Tom Cruise has a sense of humor] | ["Tom Cruise not a kook!"] | [Paulette Cooper on Tom Cruise]
[Paul Haggis, director of Crash, issues an ultimatum, leaves the church]
[Character actor Jason Beghe defects noisily] | [Actor Michael Fairman reveals his "suppressive person" declaration] | [Michael Fairman talks to the Voice]
[Giovanni Ribisi as David Koresh: Scientology-Branch Davidian link makes sense]
[Russell Brand weds ex-Scientologists in wild ceremony] | [Skip Press on Haggis]
[Placido Domingo Jr.: Scientology's retaliation is "scary and pathetic"]
Grant Cardone, NatGeo's "Turnaround King": [Doing Scientology's dirty work?] | [Milton Katselas complained about Cardone's smear job] | [Cardone runs to Huffpo]


[Our review of Inside Scientology] | [An interview with Janet Reitman] | [A report from Reitman's first book tour appearance] | [At the Half-King: Reitman not afraid]
[Scientology doesn't like Inside Scientology] | [Q&A at Washington Post]
[A roundup of Reitman's print reviews, and why isn't she on television more?]


[A review of Urban's scholarly history of the church] | [An interview with Hugh Urban]


[Marc Headley: "Tom Cruise told me to talk to a bottle"] | [The Nancy Many interview]
[Sympathy for the Devil: Tory Christman's Story] | [Jeff Hawkins' Counterfeit Dreams]
[86 Million Thin Dimes: The Lawrence Wollersheim Saga] | [Mike Rinder on spying]


[Scientology dodges a bullet in Australia] | [Scientology exec Jan Eastgate arrested]
[All hell breaks loose in Israel] | [Scientology sees fundraising gold in the UK riots]
[Aussie former rugby pro Chris Guider calls David Miscavige "toxic" and "violent"]
[Stephen Cox, UK church newbie, pledges 20K pounds] | [Biggi Reichert: A German Lisa McPherson?]


[Scientology singalong, "We Stand Tall"] | [Captain Bill Robertson and "Galactic Patrol"]
[Scientology wins a major award!] | [Scientology wants your money: Meet Dede!]
[Birmingham in the House! The "Ideal" dance mix] | [Scientology and the Nation of Islam]
[When Scientology was hip] | [Sad: David Miscavige makes fun of his own fundraisers]
[Freedom magazine parodies The New Yorker. Hilarity ensues.]
[Scientology surf report: Anonymous parties outside the New York "org"]


[A scientologist's letter to the Voice and its readers] | [Scientology silent birth]
[Tad Reeves: Scientology might listen to this guy] | [More Tad Reeves and family]
[Scientology never forgets: A heartwarming telemarketing holiday miracle]
[Scientology High School, Dating and Super Powers!]

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Michael Kushner
Michael Kushner

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Good for you Philip , great to see you was not dupped by this group called scientology.  You got out at the right time. I hope your career goes from strength to strength. 


my sisters friend makes $50 an hour on the computer. She has been out of job for 9 months but last month her cheque was $6200 just working on the internet for a few hours. Read about it here

Peter Söderqvist
Peter Söderqvist

Margaret: Peter, and all following this "crippled and blinded" saga:I've just discovered some media evidence from Apr-May 1942 which indicates that Hubbard was reportedly "back in the United States recovering from a wound received in action". The specific media issue is the SUN SPOTS Fanzine Vol. 6, No. 3 , APR-MAY 1942 -- it appears to be a fanzine for science fiction fans. It's a small publication, with only 12 pages. The quote is on page 6 in the News Flash section, and the relevant portion on Hubbard reads:

"FLASHES: " L. Ron Hubbard, famous science fiction writer is reported to be back in the United States recovering from a wound received in action. Hubbard it [sic] a Lt. Commander in the United States Navy."

(They did get his rank wrong -- he wasn't promoted to Lt. Commander until 1945.)

I think we've just moved out of the "circumstantial" realm into the "somewhat documented" realm for Hubbard's seeing combat action while in the South Pacific/Australia. I've also just confirmed that the USS Edsall -- which Hubbard claimed to a friend that he (Hubbard) was on when he was injured -- was in fact in the same area of Australia during the same dates that Hubbard was there.I'd be happy to provide a scanned copy for anyone interested.

Soderqvist1: Who reported this story to Fanzine?Hubbard told this story to his friend Captain Moulton and I suspect Hubbard told his friends within Fanzine too, but the war wound is very unlikely to have happened, and is not documented anyway in VA to have happened!

Reporters’ Daily Transcript Friday, June 8, 1984MR Flynn: page 4803: Your Honor heard from Captain Moulton. Captain Moulton says that L. Ron Hubbard told him a story about how the destroyer "Edsel" went down with all hands and Hr. Hubbard somehow got ashore and took machine gun bullets in the kidneys and went up and hid in the jungle for a period of weeks, hopped on a life raft with the machine gun bullets in his kidneys, and then sailed 75 miles on the life raft. Mr. Hubbard should go down and visit some people in the San Diego Naval Hospital or elsewhere and see people who have had bullets in their kidneys.He claims he was flown on the secretary of Navy's private plane. That is in exhibit N, S, and exhibit 500-X.

Page 4805: And as Your Honor knows, there is no war wound. There is no personal disability physically other than his duodenal ulcer.

Sodervist1: He has been treated in hospital for his duodenal ulcer that’s all!

Heather Grace
Heather Grace

Excellent. Nice to hear from another celeb speaking out. Kudos, Boyd.

Sarah In Zurich
Sarah In Zurich

So right now there are 199 comments on this article and it also received 199 likes. Sorry, my OCD is making me post this comment for no other reason than to make the number of comments on this blog a nice round number. Can somebody please like the article, so that it also has 200 likes? [I already used my "like"]. And yes, I know.....Scientology can cure my OCD. If only I had a good auditor.


 I'll post this again as I don't see it in the comments and it has only 18 days left to be completed by.

Sign the US Government Petition to investigate the Church of Scientology and it's abuses. The Government must give a response.

It’s all about a volume of voices, don’t be afraid anymore it is your right to get answers. Anyone can sign join those voices.

If problems registering go here 1st:

wwws dot whitehouse dot gov/user/register

+back to the Petition:

wh dot gov/4Os

If the Sign button is grey and not green simply log out and log back in.


 Always a treat when individual sci adherents take umbrage to that which is the indisputable truth. Hubbard was a con man plain and simple. He IS DEAD.

 He was madness personified. Look at something as simple as his immediate family! He could not love or be loved. His own family life a total train wreck. How dare a monster such as Hubbard claiming to bring comfort and knowledge to help his fellow man. He singlehandedly destroyed his family and anyone else unfortunate to have come under his twisted sphere of influence.

 The current madman (David Miscavige) best look in the mirror. If not he too will die a lonely death in a trailer in the middle of nowhere scared of his own shadow. His name too becoming synonymous with evil.


You know, I keep hearing the same crap over and over from people who have left the cult and yet nothing gets done. They had far less on Jim Bakker and yet they went after him and brought him down. Why the hands off of scientology?


Does Margaret consider Scientology a religion?


Can Margaret show us one perfect clear?


"A girl passed out and was taken to the hospital," he says. "Then they wanted to charge her $300 for auditing to explain why she got sick." What a scam!

This is EXACTLY the type of interview that is exciting to read.  Great details Tony, about them charging to transfer his folder and trying to get names of his friends or people they can suck in. A dozen more young actors with Philip's candor and sense of social responsibility and word will get around, if young actors somehow miss the Tom Cruise video and the rest of the web.

This guy is probably in great shape, eats well, and L. Ron's sauna & vitamin nuttery threw him for a loop. In a way, he's lucky he had that reaction. It drew him out of the con fog, enough to see what was happening to others around him, and he even got in tune to their hard-sell. Some people pick up on that right away and find it alarming.

Just this morning I was reading a story of a young guy on ESMB who was put on the "purif" twice. He had diarrhea, his urine burned. He was in and out in about a year, helped greatly by Clambake and seeing Tory's videos.

Hopefully, some young actor who knows Phil will see this article and be spared buying into this con also.

Peter Söderqvist
Peter Söderqvist

Naval intelligence is more exact!I know about his connection with Magick!Aleister Crowley used the letter K in the end of the word magic in order to differentiate himself from dilettantes!

Old OT7
Old OT7

Seriously?  Now  they want $300 for one person to hand another person someone's PC folder?  They must be in more trouble than I thought.  And to ask for someone's bank account number so they can freely fleece that person?  Well, at least they're upfront about being a cult!

Peter Söderqvist
Peter Söderqvist

Margaret: On Chris Owen's sites, I don't see mention of the LOOK article Peter. I looked at both ~dst's and solitarytrees' websites, and didn't see any mention by Chris of the 1950 LOOK article, where Hubbard comes out and basically tells a national audience exactly what had been "crippling" and "blinding" him after the war. Is there another website of Owens' that I'm missing? (As I said, I know he's tried to keep things [quietly] updated/corrected over the years -- from an unbalanced perspective, imho -- but I still don't see a mention of the LOOK article.)

Soderqvist1: I have found it in both references!You need to read the whole link or use a search engine and use the word “LOOK”Because it is somewhat difficult even for me to find it. Glancing it will probably not do!The quote below is from Solitary trees!

Chris Owen: The December 5, 1950 issue of Look magazine quoted him as saying he had been suffering from "ulcers, conjunctivitis, deteriorating eyesight, bursitis and something wrong with my feet," which matches well with his Naval medical record.

Margaret: With regard to Atack's book, yes just now I see it, and you are right -- it was mentioned by Atack. It was downplayed, as usual (despite the size of the audience of the LOOK article), but nevertheless it was indeed mentioned.

Soderqvist1: what do you mean with downplaying?He simply told what was there, no more nor less!

Margaret: Atack does miss some important elements (e.g. doesn't appear to be aware of Hubbard's final promotion to Lt. Commander, nor of some legitimately missing and conflicting official documents during the AU/Intelligence years), but I give him credit for giving the "church” ’s version a fair shake.

Soderqvist1: this is from the same “blind and Cripple” link above!

Chris Owen: Hubbard finally realised a long-held ambition the following year, when he was promoted to Lieutenant Commander. He had actually been appointed Lt Cdr with effect from October 3, 1945 but the appointment had not been delivered and accepted while he was still on active service. The slow-moving wheels of naval bureaucracy did not get around to confirming his promotion until June 25, 1947. He was now entitled to wear the uniform and use the title of a Lt Cdr. Strangely, though, Hubbard continued to use his old title of Lieutenant and there is no sign that he was ever aware that he had been promoted; it is not mentioned in any Scientology biographies. He may not have received the letter appointing him to Lt Cdr - it was sent to Jack Parsons' house at 1003 South Orange Grove Avenue, Pasadena. Hubbard no longer lived there, having burnt his bridges as far as relations with Parsons went, but instead now lived with Sara Northrup in a rented trailer in North Hollywood. When the letter had arrived at Parsons' house, the embittered black magician had probably torn it up on the spot.

Margaret: Before I get to your arguments, let's summarize a bit. Hubbard left the Navy crippled and blinded after WWII, and in 1950, described the nature of the "crippledness" and "blindedness" to a nationwide audience via LOOK magazine. And the medical record, finally released in the mid-80s, confirmed his statements. (Two out of three Hubbard "biographers", however, ignore this -- while the "church" ignores the unflattering censures/wrist-slaps of Hubbard's service.) The record confirmed that he was crippled with service-related bursitis and arthritis and had also gotten surgery on a duodenal ulcer -- conditions also considered "service related". The medical record also shows that he was "legally blind" at the end of the war (at least without the use of extra thick lenses). And even with the extra thick lenses, his eyesight after the war was not fully correctable and in fact pretty bad. This eyesight condition, too, was classified as "service related".

Soderqvist1: can you provide naval documents that this had anything to do with a war?

Margaret: In the critical biographies of Hubbard, events are positioned to try to minimize these service-related conditions and/or to make Hubbard look like he was faking various things, but frankly, it's not very convincing. And here's why. When all was said and done, the medical experts did the tests and made the call -- not Atack, Miller, Corydon or even Hubbard -- and the VA medical experts decided which maladies/injuries were service related and which weren't. And the official record shows VA reimbursement for service-related arthritis, bursitis, eye and duodenal ulcer trouble -- matching Hubbard's statements from 1950. Hubbard later described these maladies in a widely read philosophical treatise using the words "crippled", "lame" and "blinded". And we now know -- from the actual war record -- that he was "crippled" and "lame" with bursitis and arthritis (minimally), and was legally "blinded" after the war. And all these conditions were determined by the medical experts as service-related.

Soderqvist1: where is the docs?

Margaret: With regard to "lying about curing himself" and/or "lying to the VA" if he in fact did cure himself ... let's look at this carefully. Look at Hubbard's exact words in My Philosophy: "I worked my way back to fitness and health, knowing only what I could find out about the mind". Does he use the word "cure"?

Soderqvist1: no he didn’t use the word cure!He also claimed this; “Blinded with injured optic nerves, and lame with physical injuries to hip and back, at the end of World War II, I faced an almost nonexistent future. My service record states: “This officer has no neurotic or psychotic tendencies of any kind whatsoever,” but it also states “permanently disabled physically.”

Soderqvist1: can you provide docs for this?He also claimed that he at the time was send in by the army to break up Jack Parsons black magic ring. Do you understand what you about to do here, do not fit in with the court record which states that; “The Evidence Portrait a man who has been virtually a pathological liar when it comes to his history, background and achievement”? there is no docs for you case!

Margaret: And do you remember some of the core concepts of what he believed he "found out about the mind"? He found out that quite often, a physical illness (or trauma) has a "mental component" which could speed up healing time of the physical component. And he also found out that if a purely physical condition or injury remained "unrelieved of the mental trauma" for a prolonged period and/or was operated on -- causing iatrogenic damage -- that even though one could perhaps "relieve" the condition temporarily, it couldn't necessarily be cured/resolved entirely with dianetic therapy.

Soderqvist1: this doesn’t prove anything!

Margaret: And so no, Hubbard never claimed that he "cured" himself. He claimed that he worked his way back to fitness and health, but having been operated on, it certainly wouldn't be surprising if his conditions (especially the ulcer) wasn't cured entirely. And while his eyesight no doubt had improved by 1950 possibly by using "what he had learned about the mind" (he was no longer legally blind, and only needed reading glasses), his eyesight reportedly never returned to the pre-War period. I also note that he had gotten as much as 50% disability in the late 40s, but this was eventually reduced to 40% by the 60s and apparently 0% by the 70s.

Soderqvist1: he had an another medical examination 1951 which doesn’t support what you are saying!

Margaret: And so yes, he had "worked his way back to fitness and health" (wasn't "cured") and also deserved the VA benefits, as he still apparently suffered from some service-related conditions, at least (apparently) through the early 70s.

Soderqvist1: where is the docs?


I love this comment. Thank you, Sarah.


I think you should worry more about dyslexia.  It only has 119 likes.


Well LocalSP1, I'd say we are in for one hell of a ride. Think about a nation (USA) that currently allows 1% to dictate what the other 99% should do!

 We have a top to bottom problem here. If our system of government has been corrupted, it is not surprising to see the likes of David Miscavige and his henchmen operating unimpeded over a multi decade time frame.

 Thing is there will be justice. A social correction is upon us.


Hi jamesg,  I consider it an applied spiritual philosophy -- a sort of practical religion-science or a meeting ground between science and religion.  It's very much akin to Buddhism for me, but with a western approach.


If I was the customer, I'd say:  Hand me that dang folder, and I'll walk it over to the new supervisor myself -- for free! As a matter of fact, I'd offer to sell them a service of transferring folders at $50 a pop, and save everyone a ton of money. 


Peter, and all following this "crippled and blinded" saga:

I've just discovered some media evidence from Apr-May 1942 which indicates that Hubbard was reportedly "back in the United States recovering from a wound received in action".  The specific media issue is the SUN SPOTS Fanzine Vol. 6, No. 3 , APR-MAY 1942 -- it appears to be a fanzine for science fiction fans. It's a small publication, with only 12 pages. The quote is on page 6 in the News Flash section, and the relevant portion on Hubbard reads:

    "FLASHES:    "  L. Ron Hubbard, famous science       fiction writer is reported to be back       in the United States recovering from       a wound received in action.  Hubbard       it [sic] a Lt. Commander in the United       States Navy."

(They did get his rank wrong -- he wasn't promoted to Lt. Commander until 1945.)

I think we've just moved out of the "circumstantial" realm into the "somewhat documented" realm for Hubbard's seeing combat action while in the South Pacific/Australia.  I've also just confirmed that the USS Edsall -- which Hubbard claimed to a friend that he (Hubbard) was on when he was injured -- was in fact in the same area of Australia during the same dates that Hubbard was there.

I'd be happy to provide a scanned copy for anyone interested.


"Soderqvist1: I havefound it in both references!"


And I did find it too now.  Thank you. 



"Soderqvist1: whatdo you mean with downplaying?  He simplytold what was there, no more nor less!"


Chris (Owens) picks and chooses which factsto emphasize and which ones to de-emphasize in order to make the facts fit hisconception of Hubbard.

TheLOOK cover story was arguably the 1950 equivalent of getting on Anderson Cooper or Bill O'Reilly, andtalking about one's controversial best seller, while under scrutiny. To just mention it in passing as though it had no relevance to later related statements, isdisingenuous, imho.



"Margaret: Atackdoes miss some important elements (e.g. doesn't appear to be aware of Hubbard'sfinal promotion to Lt. Commander, nor of some legitimately missing and conflictingofficial documents during the AU/Intelligence years), but I give him credit forgiving the ‘church’’s version a fair shake."

"Soderqvist1: thisis from the same ‘blind and Cripple’ link above!”

   "Chris Owen: Hubbard finally realised along-held ambition the following

     year, when he was promoted to LieutenantCommander."


Good catch, thankyou.   

Per the Naval record,Hubbard was ordered to the Philippines at the outbreak of the war -- a hotbedof combat.  Then, per the Naval record,Hubbard ends up in Australia, and this is where things become ambiguous.  For example, it's unclear whether Hubbard is reportingto the Navy or the Army.  According tohis Naval senior officer, Hubbard is in fact reporting to the Army.  Why would Hubbard be allowed to do that?  There’s missing information.  Chris speculates, but we don’t know.  There are also fragments of records whichindicate that Hubbard was "Loaned a Thompson machine gun."  A Naval Intelligence officer – with norelation to combat – having a machine gun? Again, Chris speculates but doesn’t seem to make a convincing argument.


Also, throughoutHubbard's war record, there is an "Officer Fitness Report" at the endof each assignment, with the commanding officer giving his assessment of theofficer's performance.  For this periodin Australia/SouthPacific, there is no "Officer Fitness Report" for Hubbard, that I could find.Chris doesn't mention this and doesn't seem to be aware of it. Another oddity is that his war record has him coming home (to the US)both on the USS Chaumont and the USS Pennant. Chris also doesn't seem to be aware of this. 

Perhaps we could overlook some of these, ifit weren't for the fact that in the entirety of Hubbard's military career thisis the one period where he was: (1) in Intelligence, (2) was originally orderedto a combat zone, and (3) anecdotal reports have him near or in combat (aboardthe Edsall, for example).


So, did Hubbard seecombat?  I agree that nothing in the warrecord spells it out clearly.  But Ithink it's hard to dispute that some conflicting, missing and relevant details are not only missing, but open the door to Hubbard possibly seeing combat.





"Margaret: Before Iget to your arguments, let's summarize a bit. Hubbard left the Navy crippledand blinded after WWII ..."

"Soderqvist1: canyou provide naval documents that this had anything to do with a war?"


Nope, I sure can't.  But like I said, a pretty good circumstantialcase could probably be made, that he *might* have seen combat.  But it would be speculative for me at thispoint. 


But the truth is ... I'mnot interested in it for now.  I'll behappy, for the time-being, to say that Hubbard exaggerated by using the words"crippled" and "injured", but that this was balanced by thefact that he had earlier announced to a national audience in 1950 exactly what thenature of his “war maladies” were.



"Margaret: Withregard to 'lying about curing himself' ... Does he use the word 'cure'?"

"Soderqvist1: no hedidn’t use the word cure!"


But *you* sure did,didn't you?  And using "cure" wasan exaggeration wasn't it?   Oh, theirony of it all.  :) 



"Soderqvist1: Healso claimed that he at the time was send in by the army to break up JackParsons black magic ring."


Yes, that is the storythe church goes with.  I noticed thatan image of the “special officer” badge is now out there, and at one of theanon sites (whyweprotest I think), there seemed to be general consensus that itmight be valid as a "special officer" badge of some kind, but various speculations that it had nothing to do with theLAPD or related.  It would be interesting toresearch that further.

 But either way, I don't have any problem with Hubbard hobnobbing with the magickal crowd, if only out of personal interest.  But getting to the bottom of that "special officer" badge would be useful.


"Margaret: And sono, Hubbard never claimed that he 'cured' himself. He claimed that heworked his way back to fitness and health ...he had gotten as much as 50%disability in the late 40s, but this was eventually reduced to 40% by the 60sand apparently 0% by the 70s."

"Soderqvist1: he hadan another medical examination 1951 which doesn’t support what you aresaying!"


I didn’t see a 1951 medical exam inhis Naval records, nor one at Chris’ site. Do you have a link?

Old OT7
Old OT7


In your post here, you said the army sent Hubbard to Pasadena, CA., to break up a black magic ring.  In his bio, he states that Naval Intelligence sent him.

Either way it's all lies.  He was an enthusiastic practitioner of Satanism and black magic. 

Sarah In Zurich
Sarah In Zurich

Damn it, now you've ruined my round 200 number. Oh yeah, I heard Scientology also helps with dyslexia. Anyway, just kidding obviously.


"Western approach" meaning making it more marketable, with more appeal to the materialistic, rich, gullible, and self-absorbed. Tony Robbins and Dale Carnegie with Xenu, reincarnation, super powerz and BTs spread on top and more....make it to birth and feed your baby, cure cancer, run a business, learn, raise children.

Like Tarvuism, it's all encompassing, and all non-encompassing. A real mishmash of common sense and utter crazy.


You mean the 5,000 or so clears that they have had over the years are ALL fakes?


No, you haven't really moved from the circumstantial realm.  That is not any kind of well-known, solid source of information, and even you admit there is a factual error in the second sentence.   It's a very shaky report even if you take it at face value.  "Is reported to be..." is not a statement of first-hand known hard fact.

I don't care about LRH's war record and I'm not going to debate it. I'm just suggesting a higher standard of information than a tiny SF fanzine nobody has heard of that, when you look at the words they used, is only reporting that they heard he got wounded and don't name their source.  Peace to you :)


Yikes, hope it makes sense through the formatting snafu.

Clam On A Halfshell
Clam On A Halfshell

The poor grammar of "Axioms and Logics" makes my brain bleed. "Logic" has no plural. Hubbard was an idiot.


Medicine (including psychiatry), in general, has improved since the 1940's. 

Medicine uses the scientific method.  Hubbard was either allergic to this or didn't understand the term.  Of course, he tried to co-opt the term, like the psychopath he was.

Utilizing the scientific method, as our knowledge of the natural world improves, we can test hypothesis and conduct experiments to establish best practices of medicine.  So it is equally fair to say open heart surgery was "harsh and brutal" compared to the majority of the noninvasive cardiac procedures done today.

Your point about psychiatry is no different from medicine improving as a whole, and your implication that scientology had something to do with it is either disingenuous or badly informed.

Marg Mesa
Marg Mesa

But in fairness, psychiatry DID need reform in those years, and eventually did reform themselves through the 70s.  Today, psychiatrists acknowledge that mainstream practices during the 1940s-60s were overly harsh and brutal.  I guess my point is, the "church" of the 1980s-90s (and today) not only didn't recognize/acknowledge the reform, but actually became abusively and robotically "anti-psych" more than ever.


"they started making 'must hate psychiatry' part of their mantra, which really went cultic bigtime in the 1980s/90s"

I wouldn't say that.  Hubbard tried to make nice with psychiatry through 1952, but had taken the gloves off by the PABs of 1953.  By 1971, he had Godwinned himself, saying that the NAMH and WFMH were funding Nazi intelligence organizations, and were responsible for most of what was wrong in the world.  A choice quote from "Notes on SMERSH," 7 May 1971:"Nuremberg trials records are explicit.  They definitely prove psychiatry made Hitler and the death camps.  The WFMH and NAMH are proven to be of Nazi origin.  Their literature continues to push racial purity, mayhem and murder."

Pick up any 1970s copy of Freedom magazine, and it will be full of attacks on psychiatry.  They may well take up the entire issue.  CCHR was very busy at work, and staff started to be ordered to participate in anti-psychiatry pickets.  It was really very much like it is now, all we lacked was "Psychiatry: An Industry of Death."

Marg Mesa
Marg Mesa

Nothing's wrong with it.  Read it if you wish.

But I'd suggest a few others as pre-requisites first.  For example, the book "The Phoenix Lectures" (out of print, but you can find it on ebay etc) by Hubbard is one of my favorites.  Get through that one, and then maybe Dianetics 55! and Scientology 0-8 ... and you'd have a decent foundation for Axioms and Logics.

But yeah, Jonathan Livingston Seagull is still a good read too. :)  (They actually used to sell it in the Scientology bookstores, when Hubbard was still around.)


So what is wrong with "Axioms and Logics?"  I mean, the A&L was written by Hubbard, but the book you recommend was written by R.Bach, who was not a scientologist.

Marg Mesa
Marg Mesa

No, I'd suggest Jonathan Livingston Seagull as the best primer.


Would you say the book "Axioms and Logics" is the best primary resource for scientology reading?

Marg Mesa
Marg Mesa

I always thought that was bizarre too, Cam.

The cult's "messaging" hasn't historically been very good, but it went into a serious nosedive when they started making "must hate psychiatry" part of their mantra, which really went cultic bigtime in the 1980s/90s.

From my perspective, the symptoms for dyslexia no doubt exist.  How best to address or treat them is really the question.  I have no idea if Hubbard's methods are better than any other.  I think Hubbard's supporters need to prove it to society scientifically, before his methods should be considered valid in any widely accepted, mainstream way.  At the same time, I do think that those looking for an "alternative" to mainstream methods might consider Hubbard's methods (but only separate from the cult).  I've heard a few anecdotal stories of both success and failure, and myself -- though not diagnosed with dyslexia -- did experience a great deal of improvement in my ability to concentrate and comprehend what I was studying, after using Hubbard's methods.


Isn't is funny how scientology can deny that a diagnosis exists, but still claim to be able to cure it?   Scary bunch, with heads in the sand. 

Marg Mesa
Marg Mesa

Nah, when he was asked about it by Larry King a couple/few years ago, he didn't know a thing about scientology.  And on many issues, he's very much in alignment with Hubbard's spiritual philosophy (though I'm sure he'd reject some of the organizational stuff, as do many of us).


 Do you have Chopra's consent to use his name in association with L Ron Hubtard?  I suspect he would be upset about it.

Marg Mesa
Marg Mesa

LOL.  Indeed, maybe too much Western.

But probably more like Deepak Chopra with an emeter.


  If you have never changed your mind, you probably don't have one.


That's over 50,000, and we're not fake.  We truthfully said that we have no reactive minds.  What was fake was the idea that we had them to begin with.


ROFL! Let's just say...they're about as real as Xenu.


No, we're fighting the abuses of a cult founded by a psychopath. Part Deux.You think and write out of the corner of your mouth, and over your shoulder.

Marg Mesa
Marg Mesa

In other words ... the ends justify the means.  Got it.


No, we're fighting the abuses of a cult founded by a psychopath. 

Marg Mesa
Marg Mesa

Ah ... ends justify the means.  Isn't that what we're fighting?


I suspect it is better to be less neutral towards evil psychopaths like Hubbard.  So our criticism of all the abuses he started really is a better thing than the lack of criticism.

Marg Mesa
Marg Mesa

Hi Nibbles (Margaret here, using my new -- hopefully less forge'able -- moniker),

Despite your angry emotional response, this document from 1947 is part of the historical record -- and it has some unique relevance, since it's prior to all the dianetics/scientology hoopla. 

Personally, I really could care less about Hubbard's war record either ... but then, I'm not the one who keeps bringing it up (except to make a counter-argument) and keeps claiming that he "lied about this war injuries".  And while I realize that this document weakens one of the underlying pillars of the whole Hubbard-was-a-fraud theory, I'm afraid that those who wish to espouse that view will need to find a more logical explanation for it than it's "a tiny SF fanzine nobody has heard of".

In fact, it is precisely because it WAS a tiny unheard of SF fanzine that gives it more credibility.  In 1947, no one was trying to "make Hubbard a war hero" ... no one had a "Hubbard must be perfect" cultic mindset. 

This small unknown fanzine was just casually reporting on a well-known SF author, like I'm sure they did with dozens of other well-known authors in SF during the war, that this particular author was reportedly returned to the United States recovering from a wound received in action.

It is what it is.  Downplaying it is as meaningless as overplaying it, or acting like it is definitive proof.  But it does change the playing field in favor of those who don't consider that Hubbard was lying about being injured during the war.


Would anyone like to speculate why Chris Owen hasn't mentioned it on his "Ron the War Hero" pages?  (Or perhaps Peter Soderqvist can find it for me, because my search of it doesn't find anything at this site.)  I think I'll try to email it to him, and/or get it up on wikipedia.  After all, isn't Chris being honest and fair?  Isn't wiki supposed to be neutral on Hubbard?


That's exactly what I was going to say...I mean, talk about desperately seeking the tiniest morsel of potential truth from the most obscure source to possibly show that a teensy bit of what Hubbard said wasn't actually a full-on lie!

But then I remembered that I really don't give a shit. ;-) None of this changes what anyone with actual reasoning skills knows about LRH: he was a fraud, con-man, scam artist, criminal, and madman.

It's certainly been interesting watching someone go through such amazing leaps to try to delude herself otherwise, though!

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