Scientology Dumpster-Dive: Commenters of the Week!

Clearing the planet, one dumpster at a time
For our longtime, loyal readers and commenters (of all persuasions), I just want to say how much I appreciate your continued interest in things we're doing here at the underground bunker. This week, we got a huge influx of new folks as our stories went somewhat viral, but naturally, it was the OG friends of Runnin' Scared who tended to post the most memorable sayings and salutations.

Things started, of course, with Sunday morning's big bombshell, when Marty Rathbun made public an OSA document describing a 2006 investigation of South Park creators Trey Parker and Matt Stone. Fortunately, that morning, I happened to be spending some time online, and spotted Rathbun's post within minutes of his putting it up. I called him for a quick quote, and then put up my own story, beating any other press by most of the day.

By the next morning, more than a hundred news organizations around the world were on the story, but by then I had up our second story, and this time with OSA documents only we were in possession of.

On Tuesday, we dissected a reaction to the South Park story by church spokeswoman Karin Pouw, which was typically inept.

OSA documents are one thing. It was outside confirmation we were really looking for, and we got it the next day, on Wednesday, when we posted an interview with Troma Studios founder Lloyd Kaufman. Lloyd confirmed that in 2006, his old Yale buddy, Scientologist Eric Sherman, did hit him up for information about Parker and Stone.

On Thursday, we checked in with Mark Ebner, who himself was targeted by OSA after working on the 2005 "Trapped in the Closet" episode. He learned about that through another document leaked by Rathbun, and Ebner tells us the document checks out fully.

That afternoon, we posted our weekly "Thursday 2pm Stats" roundup, which included reports about Mike Rinder in Ireland, a new outburst from "EthicsTrouble" in SF, and a new smear of Wise Beard Man.

On Friday, we had a real treat: Mark Chauppetta, a private investigator, told us that he not only had worked for Scientology in 2006, during the time of the South Park operation, but that he had done plenty of trash digging for the church. He's quite a character.

Well, that was a pretty big week. And our commenters did not let us down. Let's get to the awards...

On Sunday, when news of the South Park investigation broke, we watched in amazement as it caught fire around the country. Our servers were heating up, other news organizations were jumping on it, the cats here in the underground bunker were diving for cover, and then we saw this reaction from Runnin' Scared favorite, Dennis Erlich:

Duh. This is news to anybody?

Nice wet blanket there, Dennis. Fortunately, the rest of the country did not appear to agree with you, friend! As the story grew legs, the wisecracks started to come in. We enjoyed this zinger by regular commenter Miles Biondo:

Sometimes being the Most Ethical Organization on the Planet means going through people's garbage in an effort to utterly ruin them. It's complicated, and difficult for the wog mind to grasp. Just keep reminding yourself: There's no way Tom Cruise would be up to his eyelids in this stuff if it wasn't ultimately for the benefit of mankind.

Church defender Marcotai then showed up and attempted to derail the discussion. I'm not going to quote our foreign friend here -- come on Marco, hit us with something relevant, will you? -- but we did enjoy it when Scientia hit back with this beauty:

Marcotai, is it okay for your church to rifle through the rubbish of Messrs. Parker and Stone, to investigate and infiltrate their circle of friends, to try and find something that can be used to influence/intimidate them just so a cartoon (yes, a cartoon) won't make fun of you? Seriously. Is that acceptable use of public donations? Is that appropriate behaviour for a religious organisation, supposedly "the most ethical group on the planet"? What do you have to say for yourself?

Alas, the church supporters were disappointing this week. On Monday, we posted our second big story on the South Park investigation, and we got a kick out of this reaction from regular reader Endscientologynow:

And Tom Cruise STILL endorses this shit. Do any of the celebrities actually own a computer and read the news, or are they as dumb as they appear? I just don't understand how it is possible that these celebrities don't have relatives or someone they cannot fire try to tell them the truth.

Many seemed to share the sentiments of Xenu after reading about Parker and Stone being targeted by the church:

This is gonna make a GREAT South Park episode!

The next day, Scientology's Karin Pouw put out an official response attacking a former member as an "apostate." Rather than let it lie there, we took the time to take apart her statement to show how inept it was. That inspired a comment by Anon A:

Poor Karin -- I have to wonder if each person who gets "promoted" to the position of new CoS spokesperson looks at the fate of the last CoS spokesperson and starts secretly sweating. Make your escape plan now, Karin - you don't have to end up in "The Hole" like the others!

We also liked the satire in this post from Brainslugged:

Can everyone please stop attacking this church just because their central tenets involve rooting through people's trash, destroying lives and lying to anyone they haven't brainwashed into doing their bidding. Religious persecution! WHAT ARE YOUR CRIMES?

And some of us were especially delighted to see a response from Norway's Geir Isene, a former OT VIII who generated a lot of online buzz when he declared recently his complete separation from Scientology in any form:

This is an intelligent dissection of Pouw's reply. Finally there is media taking an official CoS response apart paragraph by paragraph is such a skillful manner. Thanks.

Hey, we're just thankful that Runnin' Scared has become a crossroads for such interesting people from around the world.

After indie filmmaking legend Lloyd Kaufman gave us confirmation that he had been pumped for information on Parker and Stone (just as the OSA documents described), we enjoyed this comment by NCSP:

Good for him! Loyal to his friend but honest about what happened. And vulgar as always! Tom Cruise should be so lucky.

Our story on Mark Ebner included a characteristic jab at Tom Cruise from the inimitable journalist, and inspired this comment by Runnin' Scared regular MarkStark:

Ebner has been spreading the rumor that Cruise is heterosexual for years. It's scandalous and absolutely disgusting!

The piece also inspired this rather amazing reaction from ThetaManisKing, and I don't think anyone has been able to decide for certain if ThetaMan is an elaborate troll or a really hysterically upset Scientologist:

I am so upset, I have been told about this en-theta being written en-mass.I am so distraught! why are so many good Americans buying into this Ortaga [sic] guy?? I am a full time 100% hatted Scientologist. What I see here is just grotesque. I was told "DO NOT VISIT RUNNING SCARED" and WOW now I see why!!. So many Religious Hypocrites and bigots under one roof, its amazing that you all have not killed each-other with all your hatred. What is it about my religion that you don't understand?? its not that difficult!! We have a complete set of religious tenants that we believe in, just like YOU, or any other religion. My faith is NO different than YOURS and you clowns know it.

Hey, Theta, if you're going to abuse me, at least spell my name right. Sheesh.

Friday's story about private investigator Mark Chauppetta inspired some general dread of the man and the work that he does. We liked this comment from regular reader Jgg:

Has anyone gone through Scientology's trash?

And finally, we're going to end on a reaction to our reporting by CofS Exit Zone:

ZOMG!!! Now that's my kind of SCOOP! My world, haz been rocked for the week. Dirty tissues in the trash can and all. (fans self) Whew!!

It's, uh, satisfying to hear that our stories are affecting people so viscerally.

Anyway, this was really a remarkable week, and our thanks again go out to our loyal readers, who make this daily grind so fun. Even more about South Park is coming soon, and we expect you'll be right there with the zingers and quips.

The Top 25 People Crippling Scientology
#1: L. Ron Hubbard
#2: David Miscavige
#3: Marty Rathbun
#4: Tom Cruise
#5: Joe Childs and Tom Tobin
#6: Anonymous
#7: Mark Bunker
#8: Mike Rinder
#9: Jason Beghe
#10: Lisa McPherson
#11: Nick Xenophon (and other public servants)
#12: Tommy Davis (and other hapless church executives)
#13: Janet Reitman (and other journalists)
#14: Tory Christman (and other noisy ex-Scientologists)
#15: Andreas Heldal-Lund (and other old time church critics)
#16: Marc and Claire Headley, escapees of the church's HQ
#17: Jefferson Hawkins, the man behind the TV volcano
#18: Amy Scobee, former Sea Org executive
#19: The Squirrel Busters (and the church's other thugs and goons)
#20: Trey Parker and Matt Stone (and other media figures)
#21: Kendrick Moxon, attorney for the church
#22: Jamie DeWolf (and other L. Ron Hubbard family members)
#23: Ken Dandar (and other attorneys who litigate against the church)
#24: David Touretzky (and other academics)
#25: Xenu, galactic overlord

Tony Ortega is the editor-in-chief of The Village Voice. Since 1995, he's been writing about Scientology at several publications. | @VoiceTonyO | Facebook: Tony Ortega

Keep up on all of our New York news coverage at this blog, Runnin' Scared


[All recent stories] | [Top 25 People Crippling Scientology] | [Commenters of the Week] [Thursday 2pm Stats!] | [Scientology vs. South Park]


[Scientology spokesman Tommy Davis secretly recorded discussing "disconnection"]
[Benjamin Ring, LA deputy sheriff, wants you to spend your 401K on Scientology]
[Scientologists: How many of them are there, anyway?]
[Scientology hates clean ice: The "Fair Game" operation that should turn your stomach]
[Scientology hates clean ice, part 2: Another target, and the web as weapon]


[Scientology has Rathbun arrested] | [Rathbun and Mark Bunker reveal surprising ties]
In Germany with Ursula Caberta: [Announcing plans] | [Press conference] | [Making news about Tom Cruise, Bill Clinton, and Tony Blair] | [Post-trip interview]
The Squirrel Busters: [Goons with cameras on their heads] | [Rathbun's open letter to neighbors] | [Ingleside on the Bay, Texas rallies to Rathbun's cause] | [Squirrel Buster's claim to be making a "documentary"] | [VIDEO: "On a Boat"] | ["Anna" sent to creep out Monique Rathbun] | [Squirrel Busters go hillbilly] | [A videographer blows the whistle on the goon squad] | [Ed Bryan, OT VIII, shows the power of Scientology's highest levels]


[Secret Scientology documents spell out spying operation against Marc Headley]
[Scientology's West U.S. spies list revealed] | [Scientology's enemies list: Are you on it?]
Spy operation against Washington Post writer Richard Leiby: [Part 1] | [Part 2]
[A Scientology spy comes clean: Paulien Lombard's remarkable public confession]
[Scientology advertises for writers in Freedom magazine]
[Accidental leak shows Scientology spy wing plans to "handle" the Voice]
[Lori Hodgson and Disconnection: "No one's going to take my eternity away"]


["Tom Cruise told me to talk to a bottle"] | [Tom Cruise likes coconut cake] | [Tom Cruise has a sense of humor] | ["Tom Cruise not a kook!"] | [Paulette Cooper on Tom Cruise]
[Paul Haggis, director of Crash, issues an ultimatum, leaves the church]
[Character actor Jason Beghe defects noisily] | [Actor Michael Fairman reveals his "suppressive person" declaration] | [Michael Fairman talks to the Voice]
[Giovanni Ribisi as David Koresh: Scientology-Branch Davidian link makes sense]
[Russell Brand weds ex-Scientologists in wild ceremony] | [Skip Press on Haggis]
[Placido Domingo Jr.: Scientology's retaliation is "scary and pathetic"]
Grant Cardone, NatGeo's "Turnaround King": [Doing Scientology's dirty work?] | [Milton Katselas complained about Cardone's smear job] | [Cardone runs to Huffpo]
[Philip Boyd, Saving Grace actor, rips "the business that is Scientology"]


[Our review of Inside Scientology] | [An interview with Janet Reitman] | [A report from Reitman's first book tour appearance] | [At the Half-King: Reitman not afraid]
[Scientology doesn't like Inside Scientology] | [Q&A at Washington Post]
[A roundup of Reitman's print reviews, and why isn't she on television more?]


[A review of Urban's scholarly history of the church] | [An interview with Hugh Urban]


[Marc Headley: "Tom Cruise told me to talk to a bottle"] | [The Nancy Many interview]
[Sympathy for the Devil: Tory Christman's Story] | [Jeff Hawkins' Counterfeit Dreams]
[86 Million Thin Dimes: The Lawrence Wollersheim Saga] | [Mike Rinder on spying]


[Scientology dodges a bullet in Australia] | [Scientology exec Jan Eastgate arrested]
[All hell breaks loose in Israel] | [Scientology sees fundraising gold in the UK riots]
[Aussie former rugby pro Chris Guider calls David Miscavige "toxic" and "violent"]
[Stephen Cox, UK church newbie, pledges 20K pounds] | [Biggi Reichert: A German Lisa McPherson?] | [The Birmingham trove: 7,000 internal e-mails]


[Scientology singalong, "We Stand Tall"] | [Captain Bill Robertson and "Galactic Patrol"]
[Scientology wins a major award!] | [Scientology wants your money: Meet Dede!]
[Birmingham in the House! The "Ideal" dance mix] | [Scientology and the Nation of Islam]
[When Scientology was hip] | [Sad: David Miscavige makes fun of his own fundraisers]
[Freedom magazine parodies The New Yorker. Hilarity ensues.]
[Scientology surf report: Anonymous parties outside the New York "org"]


[A scientologist's letter to the Voice and its readers] | [Scientology silent birth]
[Tad Reeves: Scientology might listen to this guy] | [More Tad Reeves and family]
[Scientology never forgets: A heartwarming telemarketing holiday miracle]
[Scientology High School, Dating and Super Powers!]

My Voice Nation Help
mass mother
mass mother

I have been following your articles concerning Scientology for some time, and although I do think some statements and recounts by some of your subjects are paranoid (perhaps they are a little to close to the subject matter) it is clear that Scientology is dangerous. I think the subject fascinates me because as a young college student in Boston I was lured by Scientologists to view a "free film". They had/have a center there right near the dorms. They make it all sound like good fun. "Free" is a big bonus for students on a budget. The film shown (back in the 80s) was full of sublminal suggestion. I could have been hooked but in my mind even the most dull student could see that this was crap. In later years, I ran into the same set up at a local mall. It left me wondering who in their right mind would fall for this hooey? All I could come up with was a small percentage of people who are lonely, outcasts, that can't find a cause that resonates with them amongst the thousands of tangible politcal and social calls of duty - as if there isn't an opportunity to do good for humanity without Scientology validating it for you. In the end I come up with this. These people who follow Scientology are well-meaning, misguided fools. You can't save them from themselves, and if they get bilked then so be it. Your articles and the information available to the public make it easy nowadays to make an informed decision.


just saw youtube vid of Misscavige's speech at the "largest org ever" (yeah right) in St. Paul, Minnesota. he sounds drunk...


  Korea has a 2 mile wide DMZ spanning the peninsula.  No humans from either North or South Korea are allowed there.  An unanticipated consequence has occurred--many endangered species (who were dying because of human activity, like pollution or hunting) flourish there because of the absence of humans.

  I have an idea--maybe endangered species should be housed in the orgs.


Let's forget about about the religion or not-a-religion debate -- BORing! -- and let's see Mike in some future lively debates on Sciloontology topics like these:

Xenu: legitimate and meaningful, or tacked-on space crazy?

Scientologists: deluded gits or saviors of the planet?

Marty Rathbun: psycho apostate LRH supporter or mere Miscavige hater?

David Miscavige: Keeper of the Source, or evil dwarf?

$cientology: all about the Money or all about the $pirit?


 It's all about the fraudster Hubbard.   I've read his stuff, and I've read the best of all the distillations of the great wisdom of the centuries... as we all suspected, Hubbard was a psycho.


Being a Scientologist, when you drive past a dumpster, it's not like anyone else, it's, you drive past, you know you have to do something about it. You know you are the only one who can really dig out suppression. That's what drives me. It's like, man, you're either in the dumpster or you're out. That spectatorism, I've no time for it. That is something we have no time for now. Get those spectators into the dumpster, or out of the arena. Really, that is how I feel about it. I do what I can, and I do it the way I do everything... there's nothing part of the way for me.


This needs Mission Impossible copyright infringement music under. 



" . . . I don't think anyone has been able to decide for certain if ThetaMan is an elaborate troll or a really hysterically upset Scientologist . . . "

Drug-crazed re-turbulator.

My new hero.

CofS Exit Zone
CofS Exit Zone

Note2self: work on posting more insightful smart-sounding comments on Runnin' Scared Blog...

And less gut instinct coyote-ugly blurtings where I wake up Saturday morning and want to chew my hand off at the wrist for posting yet another open invitation for TonyO to razz me :)


"Anonymous, an unnamed band of online hacktivists, have announced that they are switching the focus of their targets from the likes of Sony and Scientology to instead concentrate on child pornography'..."n a statement Anonymous said: "It does not matter who you are, if we find you to be hosting, promoting, or supporting child pornography, you will become a target." was about time, so, for those clever anonymous, here it is just an advicee where to start:""In a stunning statement -- laced with arrogance, audacity and greed -- Village Voice Media defended its depraved web site by saying:"Neither government officials nor God's advocates can dictate such arbitrary control of business or speech."The statement came in response to a call to action -- a call to save children from sex predators -- from 36 clergy members who launched a petition via a front page advertisement in the New York Times.For those anonymous here is where you find actual info:tinyurl DOT com/3vgljt8


Humm...the usual few posters in here. it's getting really boring on this blog. So why don't we look at a new blog that says it all?Well the link is "villagevoicepimp (DOT) com. And do not forget to check the 'Ortega" section.Truth is breaking through boredom as well.


  Yes, Marcotai, a few posters.  We speak for all those tens of 1000s who can't.  The Lisa McPhersons, who are dead.  The Sea Org, which is cut off.  The people whose computers filter out truth, excuse me, negativity about the cult.  Those disconnected, or who settled lawsuits which require that they stop telling the truth, excuse me, discussing the cult.

dennis l erlich
dennis l erlich

I have more than a few friends who died in or shortly after leaving the cult because of the medical neglect all cult staff must endure.  I speak for them.  Among others.

Anon A
Anon A

You just wish that your bland, sycophantic sock-posters over at the 'Religious Freedom Watch' forums were as interesting as we are here, Marco.You guys are apparently lacking that 2nd Dynamic 'creativity' we have.  Or is that the 'sexy' Dynamic?  Whatever - either way, we got it and you don't.


Pmsl, can see the tumbleweed rolling around there.

How many other "religious" organisations use money to attack people who dare to stand up and criticise, Marco?


Thank Goddess you're here to re-turbulate us all.

Did you bring the poppers?


 Louanne, instead of putting up sites like this and bbc-exposed(dot)com and anonymous-exposed(dot)com you should try to figure out why no one trusts you OSA Scientologists.


Marco my love, you're trying to interject Theta into an unwashed and unwilling group. A group of hateful and destructive heathans!! I love you Marco!! you have more balls then all of the clowns with thier holloween masks!I Love You Marco!! I Love You so Much!!! LRH, LRH, LRH HIP HIP, come on more time HIP HIP HOORAY! HIP HIP HOORAY! HIP HIP HOORAY!   GOD BLESS LRH!! May his Theta wash over all of those that are clueless!! please, enchant  those who need enchantment, for there is where the goodies sit!!!Marco, MARCO!! i am so HAPPY YOU ARE MY FRIEND!! Marco you and I will carry the Church into the next generation, and beyond!!I love you Marco, Oh by the way my friend, I am so sorry about the passing of you sweet, sweet, darling friends cousins brother, I know its gotta stink Marko but i promice, YOU WILL get over it.. I love you MARCO, I love you SOOOOO Much Marco, I cant wait till we meet in Sydney in May, 2012!!!! you little squeeze-box, we are going to have more fun then should be permissable!! cant wait to cuddle-up with you Marco, Will the Ideal Org allow you to "HOOK UP WITH ME" for the week-end?


You're trying a little too hard.  Nobody will believe even a Scientologist is actually as dumb as you're pretending to be.

Well, actually, never mind.  They probably will.  Carry on.


Get a hotel room, will ya?  PDA between sheeple is disgusting.


The tone of your post is somewhat lower than boredom, Marcotai. If you are fooling anyone it is only yourself.


turns out the boring blog is the OSA one...


And I note that it's hosted on a site where you get the first month free, an ideal setup for a fly-by-night operation.  The name was registered on the 28th, but the hosting may have started later than that.

I'm now taking bets on what day the site goes offline.


good luck with that Marco! LOL!!


I would love to have official Village Voice T shirts with my name on the back and my favorite number. How about a shirt suggesting that people google Village Voice and Scientolgy. . Knowledge before indoctrination is the key. We have much more success stopping the personality tests, study course and self improvement courses that lead the raw meat to the slaughter.Then getting people out.  


As I found in the emails and notes of my former wife through witesses what these people are capable of doing and what they will do with crafted lies and deceit, I wondered about the method to help those that have been controlled that are still in the cult. Has anyone sat down with Steve Hassan or others and thought of how to circumvent the thought control or affect the ballance between what keeps them in and what could get them out. The Village Voice is a clarion of keeping those that can still think out but what aboout those losing their lives to these lives and the families so deeply affected by these sinister people.

dennis l erlich
dennis l erlich

"Wet blanket?"  Jeeze Tony.  How about "long-suffering compatriot." 

 I have been at this task since BEFORE I left the cult in 1982.   I'm just pointing out that these things have been going on since the inception of the cult back in the 50s.  I personally have been subject to this type of harassment since I started speaking out against the cult in the early 80s.  Excuse me for finding it humorous that after so long and the tremendous amount of work I have expended pushing the story right into the public eye, someone has finally "broken" it.  

Better late than never.  Thanks Tony.


Yes, I knew what you meant, Dennis. But it still made me chuckle as I watched the needle pinned to the max as readers around the world came to devour that story!

dennis l erlich
dennis l erlich

And let me just add this, Tony. 

There are many like me, who have been harassed by these fascist, cultists trying to take away our right to warn others., Perhaps everyone who comes to their senses and speaks out doesn't get unconstitutionally raided and sued by the cult, like me and Arnie Lerma did. 

But the havoc they cause in the lives of ex members who try to use their Constitutional rights to whistle-blow, is immeasurable.  It leaves us hyper-vigilant; always watching for someone following, keeping neighbors aware of the possible protesters, leaflets or whatever from the cult.  Because we know they are relentless against us. 

There are a handful of us who bore the brunt of these tactics (as dished out by Mr Rinder and Rathbun) so that the rest of the world would know the truth.  On behalf of those of us, living and dead, who blazed this highway from a footpath, thank you Tony for so effectively spreading the truth about this cancer on the body of society.

And this: I realized while I was still inside the cult that they would never stop these activities until acted upon by some powerful outside agency.  Like the Justice Department .... or the Internets.  

Jens Tingleff
Jens Tingleff

Hi Dennis,

Just wanted to say it's good to see you back at calling the criminal organisation known as the "church" <spit> of $cientology a cult.

Carry on :) </spit>

dennis l erlich
dennis l erlich

Me too, Tony.  The light is finally shinning on the activities the cult uses to torment people who try to expose them.

Jefferson Hawkins
Jefferson Hawkins

Interesting that ThetaManisKing says that they have a "complete set of religious tenants." I wonder if he is referring to their "Ideal" Orgs?


Ha! Couldn't be. Thankfully, occupation remains low in those tacky mausoleums!


Connecting garden-variety Sciloontology tactics of intimidation and control to people popular in the media is important. It brings in a whole new audience, and potentially saves many people from slipping into involvement with Sciloontology.

Up on YouTube yesterday, Independent clam Mike Rinder participates in a debate held by The Philosophical Society of Trinity College in Ireland. You can find the 8-part series just by video searching: Trinity College Scientology debate.

Aptly, half the "For" side (Mike's side) ended up coming off as if they were on the "Against" side's team. They saved the best for last, as the guy in the 8th segment stole the show with a funny, manic, and penetrating rant.

In spite of pronouncing Taoism "tay-o-ism," Mike came off as prepared, and added a few twists aside from a regurgitation of the crap he was stuffed with as former cult spokeshole. He gave a unique denial of the Xenu story, substituting some bogus malarkey about "effect" and the "decision" being "to be,"; what was supposed to be the real essence of L. Ron's philosophy. Mike clams that their genesis story has nothing to do with "space aliens" and he carefully avoids saying "Xenu" in case anyone listening might drop dead of pneumonia.

Naturally, he blames EVERYTHING that went wrong with Sciloontology on David Miscavige, and ignores history and all that went wrong with Sciloontology under L. Ron Hubbard. Good grief!


Agreed that Rinder was reasonably eloquent, and that he did a satisfactory job of arguing that Scientology - as distinguished from the CoS - qualifies as a "religion" under a number of tests. But his denial that space opera plays an essential role in the cosmology of Scientology is utterly disingenuous.

Not only are the upper levels, beginning with OT III, based almost wholly on the Xenu story and its consequences for present-day thetans, but even Dianetics auditing of pre-clears focuses heavily on running out whole track incidents - incidents which in many cases, if not the majority, are extraterrestrial in nature. And some of the implants addressed relatively early on the bridge are as wild as R6.

At some point, the indies are going to have to confront the space opera straight on when dealing with non-Scilons. Either embrace the implausible, like Mormons have with their origin story, or write it off as allegory.


Space opera is an integral part of it and for Rinder to dismiss it entirely is outrageous. Even Tommy Davis admitted it was part of their most sacred ecclesiastical cuckoo. The other annoying part was Rinder "handling" the student who brought up valid points from Hubbard's ethics materials. Rinder said he had a "misunderstood," and/or it is taken out of context.

Intellectually, Mike (and Marty too, although he got into it later) are forest creatures. Instead of being raised by wolves, they were raised by Hubbard and weaned on Xenu.

dennis l erlich
dennis l erlich

Mark, Rinder lives in a world where all questions are answered by Elrongism.  If you are critical, you have hidden crimes.  If you don't believe them, you have a misunderstood word.  If you are sick, you are connected to an Espee.  And on and on.  

Rinder is a true believer and lives in a different world from the rest of us.


I know I should watch the entire debate as part of my Scientology-watching duties. But can I admit that I am looking forward to it like I would a root canal?


I too find it difficult watching someone who seems to be in closet (at his age esp)


Oh, do take the time! I really enjoyed listening to all the debates. The words were hard to discern at times because of the thick Irish accent but it was worth it to really listen and hear what every pro and opp had to say. I'm sure Rinder was none too pleased on most of them, even the pros but tht made it all the more interesting to hear.


The poor recorded sound quality (because of the acoustics) makes it difficult to understand, and it was a slog to get through. I don't think anyone would hold it against you if you listened to just the 3rd (Rinder's) and 8th segments.


I'm on my own rant here...another thing from the debate. Mike, or one of the debaters, points out that in most religions, people emulate the founder. They aspire to be to be as loving and forgiving as Jesus, for example.

With L. Ronism, followers are supposed to find themselves, and just accept L. Ron's flaws, or not even look at the man behind the curtain. Ironic isn't it, that so many of them end up as mini-Hubbards, driving their families away, lying without blinking, and even chain smoking?

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