Scientology Viscosity: Commenters of the Week!

GreasedLightning2.jpg
Someone's been waiting a long time to get his oiliness checked.
It was an amazing week here at the underground bunker, where we keep an eye on all things Scientology. Let's take a look back at how the week unfolded before we recognize the work of our illustrious commenting community.

We starting things out by having fun with the Tone Scale in our regular weekend feature, Sunday Funnies. Then, on Monday, we asked Jefferson Hawkins for his thoughts on Scientology's sudden big ad buy on network television, which seems to be ongoing. (And the reactions at Twitter when the 2-minute commercials have appeared during shows like American Idol and Glee have been priceless!)

On Tuesday, we gave you yet another look at the wacky plans for the Super Power Building, this time with glimpses of the Infinite Pit, Water Wall, and yes, another look at everyone's favorite -- the Oiliness Table!

Wednesday morning we brought you a lengthy, heartbreaking story about a Missouri family that's been ripped apart by Scientology's disconnection policy. And just for good measure, the St. Louis org sent over a couple of executives to intimidate a 71-year-old grandmother. What a church!

The next day, we had another lengthy investigation, this one exposing the hypocrisy of Scientology's Australian mouthpiece, a woman named Virginia Stewart. We uncovered that at the same time she was going on Australian TV to claim that there is no policy of disconnection, she disconnected from her own father for 22 years!

And yesterday, we continued our Friday feature, This Week Aboard the Apollo, with yet more remarkable crew dispatches by the Commodore, L. Ron Hubbard.

What a week. And now, on to the awards!

Our Sunday Funnies this week generated a lot of great comments. You people are brutal with your critiques of Scientology literature! We had a good chuckle from this observation by Thetan-X...

LRH may be the "Greatest Being EVER" to $cientologists but he looks like the Skipper on Gilligan's Island to me....

A mailer with a classic cartoon version of the Tone Scale was a favorite with readers. And we enjoyed this explanation of it from Kate Bornstein...

I love the tone scale. I do. Makes me giggle just to look at it. The tricky thing they don't tell you (well, they do tell you, but you have to look for it) is the teeny tiny range of emotions that humans (us wogs) can actually experience. Have a look at 0.0 on the scale: Body Death. That means that only dead people (thetans who've lost their meat bodies) can experience the emotions below that. Plus, only amazing cool operating thetans can experience much above 4.0. Humans only get to travel from .01 Dying up to 4.0 Enthusiasm. Thus endeth the tone scale lesson for the day. There will be a quiz next Wednesday. kiss kiss, Kate

Our post about Scientology's big network ad buy generated this smart response by BroekerBroekerBroeker

This was the only realistic way for Miscavige to undermine Cook's message. It's not like he was going to open up the books of the IAS to address her primary concern -- so he bought a few ads, so the Church could point and say, "see, Debbie was wrong all along! We are advertising!"

We were also interested in this perspective from Scnethics describing what the ads may have looked like from inside the church...

Yep, the ads were for Scientology public to see. I hate to admit it, but when I was in my heart would go pitter patter every time I saw a Scientology ad on national TV. I wish I had known this was a signal that shit was hitting the fan somewhere, and it was time to finally google "Scientology"!

After even more plans and schematics from "Flag Mecca," we enjoyed this reaction from LeeAnne Clark...

I just gotta say...these supa-powa blueprint articles are fabulous, but the comment threads are a-freakin-AWESOME! You folks are too funny for words. I'm laughing so hard I can't even stay on my chair.

Well, our commenters certainly deserved that pat on the back. And we also loved this comment from Patty Moher...

At first glance I thought the Low Gravity Harness was a new hat for the Squirrel Busters.

Wednesday, we published our lengthy story about the Little Family in Missouri, who have struggled with disconnection and intimidation from the church. We liked this reaction by JustCallMeMary...

This is why many remain quiet and anonymous on the Internet. Disconnection, which all scientologists are educated about with the PTS/SP tech, never seems real enough until it happens to you. The church will say that they disconnected from Jeremy and they would not be wrong. But by the time they realized what they did, it was too late. Scientology is an evil religion and disconnection sucks.

Synthia Fagen moved us with this response...

This story is one of the most heart wrenching I have heard since I have left. The Little's and I left at the same time and so we have gotten to know each other. They are the nicest people you would ever want to meet.

I believe that the church is involved, here, in a true full-blown HATE crime that should be reported as such to the authorities. It is also elder abuse.

What could they possibly have wanted to accomplish other than to crush an elder woman who worked for them for 10 years! Disgusting.

And Jefferson Hawkins once again knocked us for a loop with his words of wisdom. This is probably the smartest thing I've read about how OSA operates in forums such as our own...

Just a word about the OSA sockpuppets who post here and on other forums. Realize that these are not real people, they are synthetic people. They are, in a very real sense, puppets. Sure, there are real people who write these things under pseudonyms, and those real people have actual names and personalities. In fact, if you met them socially you'd probably have a nice conversation and find them pleasant. You might even like them. I've had many pleasant talks, for instance, with Gloria Idda, one of the people tasked with monitoring these forums and "handling" them. She's a nice lady, good sense of humor. She loves her daughter (and here's a key difference: I can say nice things about them, but they could never say nice, or even charitable, things about me or any "enemy"). But Gloria Idda is not allowed to be Gloria Idda on these forums, or to converse normally or give her actual opinions. She has to become this fake, unpleasant, combative persona with pat, Church-approved statements.

The burnout rate on these people is high. Because of the nature of their position, they have to actually read the articles and read the comments, something ordinary Scientologists are forbidden from doing. And so the cognitive dissonance builds up and up. Their own questions and doubts build up and up - naturally. Hubbard tried to handle this by insisting that anyone on "external lines" (as it is called) be audited at least once a week to handle any doubts or other "lower conditions" they might get into. But even so, they eventually burn out, and either get assigned to another position or sent to the RPF - or they blow. And someone else takes over running the sockpuppet - maybe without even changing the name. And if they do blow and end up on the outside and decide to tell what they know - well, they just become another "enemy," another "lying apostate." And so it goes.

These people really have very little information about what goes on above their pay grade. They don't know how the money is handled. They don't know what goes on at the highest levels of the Church. They are told to deny everything and they deny everything. They are told to attack the whistleblowers and so they attack. What do they really think? What does Gloria Idda really think? Who knows? But I guarantee you, they know, in their heart of hearts, that something is wrong with their church.

So argue with the sockpuppet all you want. But remember, that is what you are doing. Arguing with a puppet. And that's kind of silly. Because they put that puppet there for you to argue with, and, they hope, derail and confuse the conversation and veer it off-topic.

The best thing to do is keep talking, keep exposing what you know, keep blowing the whistle. Because that's how you eventually get through to that person behind the puppet.

On Thursday, we exposed the hypocrisy of Virginia Stewart, the Australian spokeswoman for the church, who claimed on television that disconnection is not a church policy, while hiding the fact that she had disconnected from her own father for 22 years.

Once again, Synthia Fagen's response moved us...

Someday, maybe, Virginia will thank you for this piece as it is beautiful even if it would be hard for her to confront.

Virginia, come on out. There is love out here. There is hope and there is freedom. Stop lying for this cult. It is not good for your health.

But we also liked this bit of payback from our friend Mark Ebner...

RIP Ida Camburn. No disconnection policy? Pshaw.

And we'll finish up with a lengthy post that we were thrilled to see. Paul Schofield told us more about his good friend, Allen Wright...

Thank you Tony, for putting Allen Wright's story out there for all the world to see.

Allen and I worked together in Sydney org courseroom in the early 80s. He and I became firm friends. He was a man of wit, charm and amazing ability. He left the "official Church" around 1983 but but came into the org one day in 1984 to be "handled" by an RTC Mission. I saw him standing by himself and went over for a chat - I was the only staff member to do so. There were a lot of people standing around that day looking daggers at us.

Fast-forward to 2009. I'd just left the cult and Allen and I re-connected. He came back to Oz for a brief visit and I met him at his hotel in St Kilda and drove him to our house on the outskirts of Melbourne. We spent the day chatting in the yard. I drove him back to his hotel late that night and he went to country Victoria on business then back to Switzerland. He looked dreadful physically - I didn't recognize the old man he'd become at first as he'd always been very healthy - but he was the same old Al, even flirting outrageously with my wife, just like he'd done with the girls back when we were working together.

He told me he had a "physical problem" but nothing more. He chatted about his life since leaving $cientology in Sydney and he had only one regret about it all - his beloved daughters had disconnected from him. He was still a devoted follower of Hubbard - far more so than most of the current group of scilons I know - and he spoke a bit of some of his adventures. He even told me of his first encounter with David Miscavige in the early 80s and how Al's gut reaction was "this guy's like the Gestapo." The time went way too quickly and we agreed to stay in touch and had sporadic contact after that. I hoped to catch up with him in the flesh again someday and was gutted when I was told he'd died.

Allen lived life to the full and was a man of amazing talents. I'm proud to have known him and I pity his daughters for missing out on having his counsel for all the years they shunned him. I knew Virginia well as she was a teenager in the courseroom for several years after I took that over from Al in the mid-80s. Before she joined CMO and was then "swapped" to OSA ANZO because of some "out-Qual."

Underneath that vacant gaze you see on the TV is a good person. It's too late for her to reconnect with her Dad but it's not too late for her to re-connect with the real world.

It was another stunning week for commenting here at the Voice. You really keep us going with your insights and wisdom and humor. And come on, if we have to have a troll like Marcotai, at least he's entertaining in his own infuriating way!

Remember to check in tomorrow morning for Sunday Funnies.


Tony Ortega is the editor-in-chief of The Village Voice. Since 1995, he's been writing about Scientology at several publications.

tortega@villagevoice.com | @VoiceTonyO | Facebook: Tony Ortega

Keep up on all of our New York news coverage at this blog, Runnin' Scared


SCIENTOLOGY IN THE VILLAGE VOICE

[All recent stories] | [What is Scientology?] | [Top 25 People Crippling Scientology]
[Commenters of the Week] | [Thursday 2pm Stats!] | [Scientology vs. South Park]
[This Week Aboard the Apollo] | [Sunday Funnies]

FEATURED INVESTIGATIONS

[Scientology spokesman Tommy Davis secretly recorded discussing "disconnection"]
[Benjamin Ring, LA deputy sheriff, wants you to spend your 401K on Scientology]
[Scientologists: How many of them are there, anyway?]
[Scientology hates clean ice: The "Fair Game" operation that should turn your stomach]
[Scientology hates clean ice, part 2: Another target, and the web as weapon]
[Paulette Cooper, Scientology's original and worst nightmare: a Thanksgiving tribute]

THE TOP 25 PEOPLE CRIPPLING SCIENTOLOGY

1. L. Ron Hubbard | 2. David Miscavige | 3. Marty Rathbun | 4. Tom Cruise | 5. Joe Childs and Tom Tobin | 6. Anonymous | 7. Mark Bunker | 8. Mike Rinder | 9. Jason Beghe | 10. Lisa McPherson | 11. Nick Xenophon | 12. Tommy Davis | 13. Janet Reitman | 14. Tory Christman | 15. Andreas Heldal-Lund | 16. Marc and Claire Headley | 17. Jefferson Hawkins | 18. Amy Scobee | 19. The Squirrel Busters | 20. Trey Parker and Matt Stone | 21. Kendrick Moxon | 22. Jamie DeWolf | 23. Ken Dandar | 24. Dave Touretzky | 25. Xenu

HELD ABOARD THE FREEWINDS: TALES OF THE SEA ORG

[Valeska Paris, held against her will from 1996 to 2007 on Scientology's cruise ship]
[Ramana Dienes-Browning, marriage at 16, sexual interrogation, life in the engine room]
[Melissa Paris, Valeska's sister: forced to marry at 16]

SCIENTOLOGY VS. SOUTH PARK: INVESTIGATION AS RETALIATION

[Scientology targeted South Park's Parker and Stone in an investigation]
[More documents in the South Park probe: instructions to send in a young mole]
[Scientology responds in typical fashion] | [Lloyd Kaufman confirms the probe]
[Mark Ebner also investigated after South Park involvement]
[Mark Chauppetta, private eye, explains what Scientology operatives look for]

MARTY RATHBUN AND THE SIEGE OF SOUTH TEXAS

[Scientology has Rathbun arrested] | [Rathbun and Mark Bunker reveal surprising ties]
In Germany with Ursula Caberta: [Announcing plans] | [Press conference] | [Making news about Tom Cruise, Bill Clinton, and Tony Blair] | [Post-trip interview]
The Squirrel Busters: [Goons with cameras on their heads] | [Rathbun's open letter to neighbors] | [Ingleside on the Bay, Texas rallies to Rathbun's cause] | [Squirrel Buster's claim to be making a "documentary"] | [VIDEO: "On a Boat"] | ["Anna" sent to creep out Monique Rathbun] | [Squirrel Busters go hillbilly] | [A videographer blows the whistle on the goon squad] | [Ed Bryan, OT VIII, shows the power of Scientology's highest levels]

SCIENTOLOGY SPYING AND "FAIR GAME"

[Secret Scientology documents spell out spying operation against Marc Headley]
[Scientology's West U.S. spies list revealed] | [Scientology's enemies list: Are you on it?]
Spy operation against Washington Post writer Richard Leiby: [Part 1] | [Part 2]
[A Scientology spy comes clean: Paulien Lombard's remarkable public confession]
[Scientology advertises for writers in Freedom magazine]
[Accidental leak shows Scientology spy wing plans to "handle" the Voice]
[Lori Hodgson and Disconnection: "No one's going to take my eternity away"]

SCIENTOLOGY AND CELEBRITIES

[Hey, Scientology Celebrity, Here's Your Media Training Checksheet!]
[Tom Cruise and X Factor's Stacy Francis singing together on the Freewinds]
[X Factor's Stacy Francis: Her first husband, Michael Sandlofer, answers abuse claims]
[Tom Cruise and Baby Suri embarrassed by news item, so someone must pay]
["Tom Cruise told me to talk to a bottle"] | [Tom Cruise likes coconut cake] | [Tom Cruise has a sense of humor] | ["Tom Cruise not a kook!"] | [Paulette Cooper on Tom Cruise]
[Paul Haggis, director of Crash, issues an ultimatum, leaves the church]
[Character actor Jason Beghe defects noisily] | [Actor Michael Fairman reveals his "suppressive person" declaration] | [Michael Fairman talks to the Voice]
[Giovanni Ribisi as David Koresh: Scientology-Branch Davidian link makes sense]
[Russell Brand weds ex-Scientologists in wild ceremony] | [Skip Press on Haggis]
[Placido Domingo Jr.: Scientology's retaliation is "scary and pathetic"]
Grant Cardone, NatGeo's "Turnaround King": [Doing Scientology's dirty work?] | [Milton Katselas complained about Cardone's smear job] | [Cardone runs to Huffpo]
[Philip Boyd, Saving Grace actor, rips "the business that is Scientology"]

JANET REITMAN'S INSIDE SCIENTOLOGY

[Our review of Inside Scientology] | [An interview with Janet Reitman] | [A report from Reitman's first book tour appearance] | [At the Half-King: Reitman not afraid]
[Scientology doesn't like Inside Scientology] | [Q&A at Washington Post]
[A roundup of Reitman's print reviews, and why isn't she on television more?]

HUGH URBAN'S THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY

[A review of Urban's scholarly history of the church] | [An interview with Hugh Urban]

EX-SCIENTOLOGISTS SPEAK OUT

["The Money Machine": another blockbuster St. Pete Times investigation]
[Marc Headley: "Tom Cruise told me to talk to a bottle"] | [The Nancy Many interview]
[Sympathy for the Devil: Tory Christman's Story] | [Jeff Hawkins' Counterfeit Dreams]
[86 Million Thin Dimes: The Lawrence Wollersheim Saga] | [Mike Rinder on spying]

OVERSEAS NEWS

[Scientology in Israel: Arson, attempted murder, paranoia -- and a visit by the Voice!]
[Scientology dodges a bullet in Australia] | [Scientology exec Jan Eastgate arrested]
[All hell breaks loose in Israel] | [Scientology sees fundraising gold in the UK riots]
[Aussie former rugby pro Chris Guider calls David Miscavige "toxic" and "violent"]
[Stephen Cox, UK church newbie, pledges 20K pounds] | [Biggi Reichert: A German Lisa McPherson?] | [The Birmingham trove: 7,000 internal e-mails]
[Australian farmer blamed for giving Tom Cruise a bad shrimp, loses her friends, family]

ODD VIDEOS AND ODDER NEWS

[Scientology chillin' with hip hop!] | [The curious career of Scientology rapper Chill EB]
[Chill EB and me: the Voice interviews Scientology's in-house rapper]
[Scientology singalong, "We Stand Tall"] | [Captain Bill Robertson and "Galactic Patrol"]
[Scientology wins a major award!] | [Scientology wants your money: Meet Dede!]
[Birmingham in the House! The "Ideal" dance mix] | [Scientology and the Nation of Islam]
[When Scientology was hip] | [Sad: David Miscavige makes fun of his own fundraisers]
[Freedom magazine parodies The New Yorker. Hilarity ensues.]
[Scientology surf report: Anonymous parties outside the New York "org"]

THE VIEW INSIDE THE BUBBLE

[A scientologist's letter to the Voice and its readers] | [Scientology silent birth]
[Tad Reeves: Scientology might listen to this guy] | [More Tad Reeves and family]
[Scientology never forgets: A heartwarming telemarketing holiday miracle]
[Desperate Scientology fundraising caught on video]



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My Voice Nation Help
92 comments
JustCallMeMary
JustCallMeMary

Spend a week reading the posts over at the news group alt.religion.scientology and you'll see what Jeff Hawkins' talking about. Before the forums, there was the newsgroup and it was the birthplace of much important information brought to the internet. Essentially the church took over that place because of fools answering and getting into it with it's trolls and sockpuppets whose sole purpose was to derail threads and comments from the topic at hand. If ever there was a lesson learned by many of the old guard ex scn, it's to ignore these types of comments. Feeding the trolls is what the cult wants, so keep at it if you want them to succeed in getting people to not participate here.

Jens Tingleff
Jens Tingleff

Paul Schofield's comments about clam distractor-bots trying desperately to deflect attention away from the human rights abuses perpetrated  by the criminal organisation known as the "church" of $cientology under the orders of the tiny tyrant David Miscaviage are well taken.

At the same time, there are lurkers who need the obvious pointed out to them. There are people, who we - as critics - would like to reach who just do not take the time to read and understand detailed technical arguments. We had that happen back in the A.R.S days when a well known (to critics) troll actually got someone whose opinion mattered hoodwinked.

So, keep plugging away, pointing out the discussion that the spokesclams are trying to divert attention away from and their inability to actually respond to the topic at hand. Happily, the clams mostly use very crude distraction and ad hominem tactics, so it's an easy job. Since it's also enjoyable, keep it up!

Best Regards

Jens

Stat
Stat

Also, for the grammar nazis bugging Marco about his spelling, check this brilliance out that someone received as an e-mail from the Twin-Cities Ideal Org and posted on ESMB.

twincitiesATscientologyDOTnet

FROM: HUBBARD DIANETICS FOUNDATION

DEAR ,

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY!!! WE MIS YOU HERE.

WONDERING HOW YOU ARE GREATLY COMMING ALONG WITH ALL OF THE TECHNOLOGY OF LRH YOU HAVE STUDIE, AND LIKE FOR YOU EMAILS US AND SHARE YOUR WINS!!!

DID YOU KNOW WE MADE IT TO A NEW IDEAL ORG AND A CLASS V?

YES WE HAVE AND IT IS SPACTACULAR. I AM NEW HERE IN THIS CITY AND ON STAFF TO HELP WHERE EVER I CAN WITH THIS CRUSADE TOWARD CLEARING THE PLANET OF ALL ABERRATIONS.

I AM EXSITED TO HERE FROM YOU!! I SEE YOU AT ONE POINT WAS MOVING UP THE BRIDGE VERY RAPIDLY. EVEN IF YOU ARE IN ANOTHER CITY!!

LET ME AND ALL OF US KNOW YOUR OCCOMPLISHMENTS, AND KNOW THAT WE ARE HERE TO ASSIST YOU WITH YOUR CONTINUED PROCESS.

I ALSO WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT WE HAVE NEED OF EXTRA STAFF IN OUR DAY ORG. COME ABOARD AND ASSIST US.

THANK YOU,

HDA HDTSNRSP - what is this?

Sent: 19 January 2012 16:04

(Courtesy of HappyDays from ESMB)

So, with that in mind, try give Marco a break, he is just fine. At least, grammar-wise. LOL

Stat
Stat

What a great week!

And as if it wasn't enough:

- Great tips from Chuck Beatty for ASI/OSA (down) stats- Tony admits he needs a Sec Check and femanons like it - Sam reminds RTC what Domingo family is like (RTC is sad)- Thetan-X parties like a rock-star LOL- And we apparently have two Marcotai's now(are they gonna argue with each other on who is the real deal?

Never a dull moment at Village Voice! Love you all!

Jimbo
Jimbo

Re: sockpuppet burnout: "Hubbard tried to handle this by insisting that anyone on "externallines" (as it is called) be audited at least once a week to handle anydoubts or other "lower conditions" they might get into." And exactly WHO pays for these auditing sessions, and  HOW MUCH are they?

sketto
sketto

Sometimes I can't tell who is most evil - David Miscavige, L Ron Hubbard or Xenu. I guess I'd have to say whoever invented the RPF, Fair Game and Disconnection of Families. 

I always forget which of those three assholes it was.

barbara graham
barbara graham

'Scientology viscosity?' What do they plan on using for the oily table? 10W 40?

bobx
bobx

Yes, Virginia, there IS an insanity clause!

BossyChick
BossyChick

Scn experts, please help me out here.

I get that Marcotai is an off-brand troll and/or sock puppet. What I don't get is the whole "with friends like Marcotai, Scientology doesn't need enemies" part. I've never been in Scientology, but back when I was on the fence about it, a mean-spirited, bullying, semi-coherent commenter like Marcotai would have sent me running in the other direction.

Wouldn't the OSA be all over that? I mean, they seem to want sweetly reasonable (if completely phony) people like Virginia Stewart promoting the "religion." Certainly as a member of the gullible raw public, I'd want some courtin' and sparkin' before I could be convinced to spew out mindless drivel disguised as gospel truth. All Marcotai promises to do is beat you up, which, I gather, gets to the foundation of the David Miscavige and L. Ron. Hubbard approach to Scientology.

mommy
mommy

Man! This blog has turned into a crazy off shoot of the cult. Your commentées are speaking Hubtard. I can't even comprehend the nattering anymore. How about focusing on the missing, murders, unsolved deaths, suicides, political blackmail, .....etc...Expose their crimes and be literate.

jakeinthousandoaks
jakeinthousandoaks

A friend recently brought me into a scientology center in Thousand Oaks and it was jam packed!  Everybody was happy and freindly, a complete surprise to me.  Then as we talked more, they explained to me that they were seperate from the church and were following the original teachings of Hubbard.  Not sure if I am intereted, but this place was the exact opposite of the glazy eyed robots that comprise what's left of Miscavige's church.  If Hubbard is a loon, then it doesn't matter where you get your Scientolgy cuz your screwed, but at lease these independent people were actually smiling and happy.

John P.
John P.

This spelling reminds me of a Nigerian 419 scam. A lot.  "I am Mrs. Olabungo Nawajola. I requesting of your help in recovering the sum of FIFTY THREE MILLION DOLLARS UNITED STATES, $53,000,000.00." Etcetera.

hgc
hgc

Want to know the sound of a human robot? They insert bits of programming like this into their language, without even thinking about the meaning or implications:

"... TO HELP WHERE EVER I CAN WITH THIS CRUSADE TOWARD CLEARING THE PLANET OF ALL ABERRATIONS. " 

Jens Tingleff
Jens Tingleff

Damnation Navy victims do not pay anything...

However, it might be the best thing that happens to them all week, since they have to be rested and properly fed before they can go into auditing.

Now,if they were going into "sec-checks" they don't have to be that well off, and the Sea Org can treat them badly full time.

Maybe L Ron Hubbard didn't realise that under David Miscavige a Sea Org'ed would look on *anything* that involved being well fed and rested as a blessing. If the old fraud had realised that, he would have made exceptions...

Best Regards

Jens

Thetan-X
Thetan-X

Sketto my little friend, yes I understand your confusion, but you are absolutely correctmy little *dumpling of truth*.. Yes "Lafayette Ronald  or Ronaldo Hubbard" is the most EVIL of the three, You see,... obviously without the gigantically disturbed dictator: LRH, none of the following douche-bags like "David Miscavige" and his TWO Decade of DESTRUCTION plan, gave birth to the "Marty the-apostate Rathbun" era !! which has become one of the most ENTERTAINING ERAs of this Stupid fucking CULT..Please you must agree ? Without Marty we would not have access to all of the salacious, corrupt, criminal, and down right FUCKING UN-ETHICAL Bullshit going on in the fucking "CHURCH" OF LRH. jesus I cant stand Marty Rugburn but for XENU's sake he unloadssome of the most entertaining pooh-pooh I have seen...Bless you sketto for listening to my **--Natter--** I feel your pain sugar-draws!!!!!

chuckle chuckle,Thetan-X / johnny d

Chuck Beatty
Chuck Beatty

Cult-like social behavior theory stuff explains why OSA people can't see that Marcotai isn't being effective and that he's instead causing  just more rejection of Scientology.

The only way to defend Scientology properly, if one's gonna do it well, is really pick out the "raisins from the turds," and just NOT discuss the turds at all.   They should correct and remorsefully admit the turds are turds, then switch always to talking about the raisins.     And then actually just stick with the raisins. 

They don't have any members able to do this type of defense though.   Hubbard unfortunately wrote so much negative handling tactics, and then Hubbard unfortunately wrote into existence the old Guardian's Office to utilize all these Hubbard scriptures anti-enemy tactics, that is why they are stuck in these bad tactics and seemingly oblivious to the bad counter-reactions.   They are "just following orders."

There are loopholes, and I've endlessly laid out on chat sites, what official Scientology leadership should do, which loopholes they should employ, but it falls on deaf ears.    

Official Scientology would have to change into the more tolerant mindset of the freezone and independent Scientology splinter movement members, is all.  

Chuck Beatty
Chuck Beatty

Cult-like social behavior theory stuff explains why OSA people can't see that Marcotai isn't being effective and that he's instead causing  just more rejection of Scientology.

The only way to defend Scientology properly, if one's gonna do it well, is really pick out the "raisins from the turds," and just NOT discuss the turds at all.   They should correct and remorsefully admit the turds are turds, then switch always to talking about the raisins.     And then actually just stick with the raisins. 

They don't have any members able to do this type of defense though.   Hubbard unfortunately wrote so much negative handling tactics, and then Hubbard unfortunately wrote into existence the old Guardian's Office to utilize all these Hubbard scriptures anti-enemy tactics, that is why they are stuck in these bad tactics and seemingly oblivious to the bad counter-reactions.   They are "just following orders."

There are loopholes, and I've endlessly laid out on chat sites, what official Scientology leadership should do, which loopholes they should employ, but it falls on deaf ears.    

Official Scientology would have to change into the more tolerant mindset of the freezone and independent Scientology splinter movement members, is all.  

Marcotai
Marcotai

Actually I couldn't care less about Scientology. I know David Miscavige probably killed his wife and also had her mother killed. I'm just lonely, this is the only way I can get any attention.

LeeAnneClark
LeeAnneClark

BossyChick, I totally agree with you that sock puppets like Marcotai do nothing to actually help the cult.  But you see, the church doesn't realize that!  They actually think what he and the other sockos are doing is the right response...because Hubtard told them to do it this way!  Attack, never defend.  Dead-agent your critics. 

"Dead agenting" is described by LRH as a technique for countering negative criticism or accusations against Scientology by diverting the critical statements and making counter-accusations against the accuser (in other words, "attack the attacker"). Here's what Hubtard wrote about dead agenting:

"The technique of proving utterances false is called "DEAD AGENTING". It's in the first book of Chinese espionage. When the enemy agent gives false data, those who believed him but now find it false kill him - or at least cease to believe him. So the PR slang for it is 'Dead Agenting.'"

—L. Ron Hubbard, Board Policy Letter, PR Series 24: Handling Hostile Contacts/Dead Agenting, May 30, 1974.

So they have no choice, because what Hubtard says is true, must be true, and cannot be questioned.  Of course it's hilarious that not only does it NOT help, it surely sends anyone who might be "on the fence" running fast in the other direction.  But hey, it sure is entertaining to watch!

Thetan-X
Thetan-X

I do believe you have answered your own question....hang in there, and its nice to know that you are OFF " the fence".

Lliira
Lliira

"commentées"?

Nice try. Double-check the Google translate next time before you yell at other people about their literacy in English.

barbara graham
barbara graham

It's good to be multilingual...I speak English, Vietnamese and Scilon.

Robert Robinson
Robert Robinson

Wake up Scilon.  You blew it when you said "nattering".

TonyOrtega
TonyOrtega

I assume you're trolling, but with two big stories about disconnection, I don't know how much more I can do in a single week along the lines you suggest.

Thetan-X
Thetan-X

mommy, the word "natter" ripped a hole in camouflage ! but nice try though !!

sketto
sketto

Neato! And what a coincidence. I too had a "friend" recently take me to a scientology center somewhere and "everybody" there was friendly and nice and happy and well-adjusted and clearly didn't have any problems and never stopped smiling for second. 

I'm not sure if I'll go back again, but I just kept thinking how perfect and happy and sane and wonderful and lacking all worries or troubles or bugs all of them were. And best of all, they weren't robots!

So, sure, L Ron Hubbard may have been a psychotic fraud who couldn't even treat his own children with respect, but if all those perfectly-identical, intensely-interested and smiling people want to turn over their lives to his immoral policy rules, then maybe there is something to this independent scientology business.

LeeAnneClark
LeeAnneClark

Jake, whoever that is that brought you, he ain't no friend.  Friends don't try to get friends into cults.  Doesn't matter if it's CO$ or independent - it's all a con, a scam.  Run, don't walk, far far away.

By the way, I live in Thousand Oaks.  Where exactly is this "jam-packed" independent Scientology center?  I want to see it for myself, because frankly I think you're full of shit.  TO is an affluent area populated with highly-educated people, most of whom are in high-tech or biotech, few of whom would be moronic enough to have the slightest interest in a well-known scam, or out-of-touch enough to be oblivious to what it really is.  Spill the address, Jake, and I'll go do a drive-by.

Kim O'Brien
Kim O'Brien

wow - that sounds really , really , super , super great ! i bet that place was jam packed full of people - all bright eyed and bushy tailed! i bet there was a line out of the door because everybody knows that if you really want true enlightenment - you go to a "see we are not really with scientology "scientology center if fucking Thousand Oaks . yup .

johnny d / Thetan-X
johnny d / Thetan-X

Okay.......!!Okay..........!!Okay............!!I did enjoy a cocktail or two, please do not hold it against me......please ?!?!Listen Sketto my friend... is picken-up what I am laying down, and I do believe the rest of you are as well....."David Miscavige, L Ron Hubbard and XENU", are THE reasons the Cult of $cientology are slowly being flushed down the wonderful toilet of LIFE !!!!FUCK YEA !!!!

Lliira
Lliira

This "Marcotai" has two comments to his name. Also, his grammar and spelling are acceptable. 

Chuck Beatty
Chuck Beatty

Love your comments LeeAnne.  

But I've noticed, that the splinter Scientologists, have for decades been piloting the way into the ethical space of where official Scientology will someday likely inevitably follow.

Independent and freezone Scientologists (I'm an atheist, "Xenu's body thetan high volume exorcism is NOT for me"), just don't even DO the harsh anti-enemies tactics that official Scientology (which Marcotai does his tame version of) does.

The "tech" of what official Scientology should do, is what freezone and independent Scientology has for decades already done! 

Just skip defending and just remorsefully admit the bad Scientology tactics are wrong, and just don't do them. 

Freezone and independent Scientology just skip the negative tactics of Hubbard.   They admit the negative Hubbard stuff, but they just don't do it.

They stick to what they consider the more tolerant ethical aspects of Hubbard's writings/lectures.

BroekerBroekerBroeker
BroekerBroekerBroeker

Ah, but can you speak Vietnamese Scilon? Because if you do, ASI may have some work for you.

Marcotai
Marcotai

The word "nattering" is a bigoted term and it refers to the sound of an empty clam shell opening and closing very quickly. Another example of religious hate crimes. Those 4 year old children deserved to be locked away in a chain locker, they had bad thetans. Who cares if LRH was taking pink and grey pills and cocaine, he was the leader of my church he can do what he likes.

NOTseriously
NOTseriously

Tony, do you need the Supah Powah Rundown? Not that you aren't awesome enough. But maybe spending a little time at the oiliness table would help you focus on the missing, murders, unsolved deaths, suicides, political blackmail--not that L. Ron Hubard and David Miscavige have committed any crimes or anything....

bobx
bobx

And who says "Expose their crimes"?  Only someone who's gotten child pornography from Jan Eastgate, or been beaten by the small-minded small-statured David Miscavage, or buys into the deranged Scientology cult founded by L. Ron Hubbard (who definitely needed a psychologist), or is infested with body thetans from the Wall of Fire created by Xenu (how'm I doing Chuck?)

Scientia
Scientia

What "immoral policy rules"?

LeeAnneClark
LeeAnneClark

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!  See why I love these comment threads?  There I go, falling off my chair again...

SP 'Onage
SP 'Onage

I think he means the Moorpark Sci Mission, which is right across from Moorpark Jr. College, off of Collins Drive exit.

barbara graham
barbara graham

Know what else is bright eyed and bushy tailed?

SQUIRRELS!

Kim O'Brien
Kim O'Brien

that should be "scientology center in fucking Thousand Oaks " ~ typo ...gee...i wonder if scientology can help me with that ? i have a few thousand dollars that are burning a hole in my pocket . i was going to give it to some orphans in Haiti but since they got a back rub from John Travolta- they seem to be doing just fine now 

 Thetan-X
Thetan-X

Bla, Bla, Bla, bla, gurgle, gurgle, blaaa, goorrggoollee ...........Whats that?... yea, yea..... I Smell ...I Smell Pu*&y...!!!At least, thats right "I" have an excuse !!!

LeeAnneClark
LeeAnneClark

True, but you gotta admit that this fake Marcotai is a a whole helluva lot more honest than the *real* Marcotai (and that's using the term *real* loosely, given that the *real* Marcotai is nothing more than an OSA bot...).

johnny d / Thetan-X
johnny d / Thetan-X

Charlie is happy bobx, as am I ..It might do all here a service to check out our friend " caliwog " on his blog http://caliwog.wordpress.com/Its possible many of you have ventured over to caliwog's site through Rathbun's blog,Cali gives a very strait up ANTI $CION view-point ....anti David MisCavige anti Marty Rathbun, anti Anything anything  Pro $cientology Tech. 

Lots of great WIT as well..

Scientia
Scientia

I don't give a shit about Hubbard. He's dead. Read what I said again.

I also asked you for specifics. I asked you to define "cult identity" (your term) within the context of the Independent movement. You didn't.

I asked you to specify which "dangerous cult ideologies" you have seen promoted. You didn't.

Insead you fob me off by referring me to a book (sound familiar?).

I'm not trying to pick a fight, DC. I'm simply interested in what YOU claim to have observed. No offence intended, but if I knew I'd get more blanket assertions and vague generalisations I would have bothered asking.

DeckardCain
DeckardCain

If you really judged people by their actions then you would not buy into the Scientology con.  Weren't LRH's actions enough to show you that he was a liar, a con man, and stole most of what he wrote from others?  But, it seems that you do buy into it so you do NOT judge people by their actions.

As for the dangerous cult ideologies, even the Indie movement labels the Church of Scientology as a 'cult'.  Rathbun calls it that on many occasions.  Obviously there is some recognition that the behaviors that Scientology engenders/promotes are cultish.  Why can you not see that?

The specific answers to your questions can be found in most academic and non-academic objective and scientific (using actual science, not the fantasy fiction you use as science) works on cults, including the writings of Steve Hassan.  I recommend that you read his books about the creation of a cult identity, the actions needed to create this identity, and how difficult/painful it is to realize that the answers to life were never there to begin with.

If you actually did some research on the subject, using research that contains real science, then you wouldn't be asking me those questions.  It's obvious that you don't want to give up the fantasy that the practice of Scientology (which is really behavior modification gone awry) gives you, so I'll just leave this conversation where it stands and wish you well (and hope you wake up one day).

Scientia
Scientia

Which Indies "pretend that all the awful things Hubbard did weren't that bad because his tech is so super awesome"? Who are you talking about? What was said?

What "entire system" and "unthinking allegiance" to Hubbard have you seen in practice by Independent auditors? Give me names.

Don't give me more generalisations. You are lumping me in with your blanket claims and by doing so I can quite happily tell you that, so far, you are full of shit.

If you wish to label Hubbard as simply "immoral", that is your prerogative. No doubt you'd turn your nose up at a cure for cancer if someone like George Dubya invented it. That's the joy of labels, pigeon-holes and black-and-white thinking, I guess. Not my cup of tea though, I'm afraid. It reminds me of when I used to be in a cult.

sketto
sketto

My friend, you have no idea how much time I spend investigating Scientology, its history, its founder, its tech, its abuses, and its defenders who always ignore the serious harm it causes and instead blindly claim that I just have to study a little bit more or talk to just one more Scientologist. 

Well, I have. And at some point after encountering the countless people that Hubbard's policies have harmed, a rational person is ready to make a decision and say, "Wow, L Ron Hubbard lied often and treated people cruelly. The legacy that he left to Miscavige has continued that practice. And the Indies pretend that all the awful things that Hubbard did weren't that bad because his tech is so super awesome."

The fact that a splinter group of Indies tries to pretend that Hubbard wasn't the source of all this damage because they love the tech means little.

In short, I don't care how much you think you love the "tech" if the entire system around it and the unthinking allegiance to its creator causes such damage to real human beings. Hubbard was an immoral person who hurt many people. I distrust all those who don't see it or try to cover it up. Now is that specific enough for you?

Scientia
Scientia

>"Why should we trust what he says?"I judge people on their actions in the here and now. I believe (and know from observation and my own experience) that people can and do change. Ultimately, however, whose word you take is entirely up to you. Just look and decide for yourself.

>"From what I see, he promotes many teachings, sayings, and from all we know he's still promoting dangerous cult ideologies that are inherent in LRH's 'body of work'."

Be specific. What "dangerous cult ideologies" have you seen promoted?

>"What I want to know is why would you take part in any activity (auditing) that fits in a pattern of many destructive cults?"

How does it fit? What is your definition of "cult identity"?

DeckardCain
DeckardCain

Scientia, I have been reading Rathbun's blog since Post #1 and his "31 Points", and I have read where he's renounced the practices of Disconnection, Fair Game, etc., but why should I take the word of a man who learned to lie and commit crimes as a profession?  So much about this man is disingenuous and self-serving.  Why should we trust what he says?

And I have not read where he promotes the practice of LRH auditing "technology" as a stand-alone endeavor.  From what I see, he promotes many teachings, sayings, and from all we know he's still promoting dangerous cult ideologies that are inherent in LRH's 'body of work'.  The examples of that are too numerous to list here but include the very structure that allowed for rampant child abuse, overboarding, the EPF, the RPF, child slave labor, human trafficking, and many other abuses.

What I want to know is why would you take part in any activity (auditing) that fits in a pattern of many destructive cults?  Most destructive cults have some type of heavy meditation/focused attention that act to create the cult identity.  If you already got out of one cult, why would you continue drinking the Kool-Aid in another?

Scientia
Scientia

It's funny, but you continue to make these assertions regarding disconnection, fair game, etc., whilst clearly taking little interest in what many Indies have been saying for the last few years. Whilst opinions differ greatly regarding Hubbard and various aspects of his philosophy, what Indies do agree on is the standard practice of LRH auditing "technology" as a free endeavour, independent of any authoritative body. What relevance disconnection and fair game has (tools created and used by a monopoly to crush dissent and competition) in and amongst a bunch of unaffiliated practitioners and groups is beyond me, but I digress.

Sketto, I can't speak for anyone but myself but yes, as an Indie, of course I reject disconnection and fair game (amongst other things). I know of no Indie who doesn't! My advice to you (should you care) is simply to take a closer look at what Indies are saying and how they are shaping the future of Scientology. I'm sorry Mr. Rathbun hasn't yet put some time aside to speak to you personally regarding his and his wife's tech delivery outfit in Texas but perhaps, in the meantime, you could read his blog more frequently and in more detail. Maybe make a post or two and (gasp!) actually ask someone for their opinion. Then maybe you won't have to make such inane generalisations.

sketto
sketto

I have yet to hear Rathbun or any other Indie state the following: "We reject Hubbard's policy of disconnection and fair game 100% and will never continue them for any reason." No, instead you get, "Miscavige is bad, bad, bad." Hell, the Indies wouldn't know what to say to each other if not for blaming Miscavige for everything from A to Z.

Maybe I'll start taking thinking the Indies aren't just a softer version of Miscavige's cult when they openly reject the Hubbard policies that harm people. But they can't. They have to pretend that Hubbard was brilliant, but "flawed". Until the Indies are more honest about how cruel Hubbard was to both dedicated Sea Org members and his own family, they can't be trusted.

Hubbard was immoral. His policies reflect that. But Indies only blame Miscavige.

But you knew all that, didn't you? 

Scientia
Scientia

Sure, but what "immoral policy rules" are being applied by Indies? If there are specific groups or practitioners enforcing abusive rules and regulations then I'd like to know who to protest/stay clear of.

Jens Tingleff
Jens Tingleff

humm, which ones are not? I mean, we're talking about the criminal organisation known as the "church" of $cientology and the human rights abuses which were codified by L Ron Hubbard in "Policy Letters" and "Bulletins" most of all are either trivial or evil (or both). David Miscavige, the tyrant who leads the Co$ today, doesn't actually write a lot of policy rules, but he applies, and mis-applies, Hubbard's rules to make his victims miserable.

Best Regards

Jens

SP 'Onage
SP 'Onage

Oh, LeeAnne, want to give you a heads up if you go and check it out. It looks like they own the business right next to the mission, it's upstairs.

SP 'Onage
SP 'Onage

Not really sure? I know from the internet it's run by a older couple. There was a write-up about them in the "Acorn" newspaper. I do know they are not open in the daytime, only at night. And it's by appointment only. They're located in a strip mall right off the 118 freeway heading to Simi Valley, so you being from T.O., your real close by.

LeeAnneClark
LeeAnneClark

I'm going to go check it out when I have a chance.  Will report back at some point.

Editing to add: by the way, if you live in Thousand Oaks, you don't ever refer to Moorpark as Thousand Oaks. So if that's the place he's referring to, I call bullshit...he's not from TO.

Oh, and I have a question: is the Moorpark Sci Mission an independent mission? Because from what I can tell online, that is NOT an independent location, it's part of the CO$. Yet another reason to call bullshit on Jake.

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