The Strange Death of Flo Barnett, Mother-in-Law to Scientology Leader David Miscavige

Categories: Scientology

Ruger1022.jpg
A Ruger 10/22 rifle: Even if you were depressed and wanted to end your life, could you shoot yourself three times in the chest, and then once in the head with this weapon? We're just asking.

We were stunned when Debrah Kitchings said it: in the 26 years since she investigated the odd death of Mary Florence "Flo" Barnett for the Los Angeles County Coroner, she has not once been asked by a reporter about what she remembers of the case.

Only once in that time, she says, was she ever asked about it at all.

"I think her daughter or a relative sent a letter, an inquiry, I think," Kitchings says.

Today, Kitchings is retired and lives in Riverside County, California, but in 1985, she was an investigator with the LA Department of Coroner when, on the night of September 8, she was called to Dominguez Valley Hospital in Compton to conduct a gunshot residue test on the hands of the dead woman.

Despite the passage of time, Kitchings remembers the case well. And she suspects that there's a reason I'm interested in this one death out of the many she handled over her career.

"It has something to do with Scientology, right?"

Indeed, it does. Over the years, interest in the death of Flo Barnett has endured because of her connection to the Church of Scientology -- Barnett's daughter, Michelle "Shelly" Barnett, in 1981 married David Miscavige, who today is the supreme leader of the worldwide religion. Flo was Miscavige's mother-in-law, and Shelly herself has not been seen in public with her husband since 2006. But that's a story we'll be going into on another day.

There is another reason why Flo Barnett's death is still a matter of interest on the Internet, I told Kitchings.

Quite a few of us, I explained to her, wonder how Barnett managed to shoot herself three times in the chest and once in the head -- with a long rifle -- in what the County Medical Examiner ruled was a suicide.

"It is very unusual," Kitchings told me Monday night when we talked by telephone.

We spent some time going over her report of the incident, a document that can be found online. She wanted to confirm the facts in her report with what she remembered: that she didn't respond to the scene of the incident, but was called by Sheriff's Office personnel to the hospital, where Barnett had already been pronounced dead.

Kitchings wanted me to understand why that made a difference. Normally, if death is pronounced at a hospital, it's not a pressing case, and student workers in the Coroner's office would go down in the next couple of days to retrieve the body. Instead, in this case, Kitchings was personally called down to the hospital the same night Barnett's body was taken there.

"The detective must have had some concern. We respond because they have a question," she said.

That concern was pretty obvious, and something Kitchings put in her report that night: "Detectives felt, at the time of this report, the decedent may be the victim of a homicide due to the number of times she was shot. However, they were still interviewing at the time of this report."

After performing an autopsy, however, medical examiner Joan Shipley decided that Barnett's death was a suicide: "The case is that of a 52-year-old woman who died as the result of multiple gunshot wounds which were self-inflicted," reads Shipley's report, which came out more than a month after the incident. I asked Kitchings how an autopsy determined that cause.

"I'll tell you how. It doesn't mean it was a suicide, but I'll tell you how they came to that conclusion," Kitchings answered. "It's real easy to get away with murder anyway. It's only as good as the investigator."

She explained that a medical examiner like Shipley could describe wounds and other conditions of a corpse, but she couldn't tell by looking how a wound came to happen.

She gave me a hypothetical example of a man with a gunshot wound to the head. "A doctor has no clue whether the man shot his head off, which is a suicide; or died playing Russian Roulette, which is an accident; or if somebody shot him, which is homicide. The doctor cannot tell you whether it was accidental or on purpose. They have to rely on the investigator. So it depends on several things."

She pointed out that there was no question that what killed Barnett was the shot to the head: "The gunshot wound of the head was immediately fatal and occurred following the 3 gunshot wounds to the chest," reads the autopsy report.

But the detective would also perform what Kitchings calls a "psychological autopsy," interviewing people at the scene -- such as Barnett's husband, James Miller, who found his wife's body and was initially treated as a possible suspect.

"Here you've got what appears to be a homicide. But you run into these other factors," she said. "The hesitation marks on the wrists, for example. Were they fresh or were they healing?"

That was another odd detail in the case: Barnett not only had four bullet wounds, her wrists also showed evidence that they had been slashed.

According to the coroner, Barnett's wrists had likely been sliced days before: "The wounds are consistent with those of several days' age but are extremely superficial and may be more acute," the autopsy report reads, suggesting a possible suicide attempt a few days prior to Barnett's actual death.

On the other hand, Kitchings says, there were the multiple gunshots.

"Of course it's unusual to have that many gunshots. And with a rifle? Totally bizarre. But if you think that case is bad, you should hear about this other one, Crystal Spencer," Kitchings said, referring to a 1988 death. After telling me some things about that case, she came back to the matter at hand.

"It is very unusual and the sheriff's detective thought it was important," she said, referring again to her being called down to the hospital that night. "That's a good detective and that tells me a lot right there. The detective was smart enough to say, 'Come now.' And believe me, that was a time we were incredibly busy. The gang problem was never worse than in those years."

That the Coroner's Office ultimately ruled it a suicide, however, said more about the detective and his investigation than it did about the autopsy.

"The doctor must have been convinced that it was a suicide based on what the detective told her. The doctor has no clue, and cannot tell you how or why."

And relying on a homicide detective bureau was not any kind of assurance that the correct conclusion would be reached.

"If it was the LAPD, I'd tell you it was automatically bad. But it was the Sheriff's Office. And Havercroft, he was good," she says when I tell her the name of the detective on the reports.

"I didn't hear anything more in that case, so the doctor relied on the detective. If it was iffy, they would have gone with homicide. But they must have done enough interviews with the husband to convince them that it was a suicide," she said. "It does sound very suspicious to me. It does. But it was out of my hands."

I thanked Kitchings for being so helpful, and for not only telling me what she remembered of the case, but for taking the time to explain how a cause of death would be determined.

It was now crystal clear: I needed to track down retired LA Sheriff's Office detective Bob Havercroft and ask him how he had come to the conclusion that a small, frail woman could kill herself with four rifle shots.

Yesterday, I managed to get him on the phone. Having retired to Oregon, Havercroft was traveling in Southern California, enjoying the warm weather.

I told him why I was calling, and hoped that he remembered the Flo Barnett case out of the many he must have investigated.

"I remember that one," he said. "This one was very, very, very unusual. But it was a suicide."

But how, I asked, could Barnett have managed to shoot herself four times?

"Very easily," Havercroft answered.

"We reconstructed the scene. My lieutenant was there. It was fairly simple to do. The way she was positioned on her bed, the way the rifle was in her hand. I think we even recovered a bullet from next door -- this was a trailer park," he said.

"It was obvious what she was doing, which was typical of some women. She was trying to shoot herself in the chest, and in a critical area. There was a gunshot wound to a breast," he said.

"When we finished the investigation I was absolutely convinced it was a suicide. There was no question," he said, adding that he remembered a suicide note being found. In fact, two notes were found.

"I have never heard another word about this case since it was investigated. And I worked another 10, 11 years after that," Havercroft said.

Again, he acknowledged that the situation was extremely unusual, and that on its surface, it seemed to suggest a different conclusion.

"Hey, I can tell you my patrol deputy who was there was ready to take the husband to jail for murder. I had to cool him off. I walked him through it," he said, and explained that eventually, his deputy came to the same conclusion.

"There's no question," he added. "It's never a murder until it's a murder. We never got beyond suicide. It was easy to reconstruct with the body and the position of the gun and so on. There was no cover-up. It was a suicide. It was not a murder," he said. "It was one of those very, very interesting cases."

Interesting, to be sure. And one wonders why Barnett was so determined to kill herself that she endured what she did.

According to Kitchings' report, Barnett's daughter Camille told her that her mother had recently had surgery for an aneurysm. "Although she was not in pain, she became quite depressed as the surgery seemed to debilitate her," Kitchings wrote in her report, which went on to say...

Approximately two weeks ago she mentioned she "felt no hope of getting better." Two days ago, her daughter found the decedent covered with blood from her chest to waist. She asked what happened and was told "I had a nosebleed." She also came into the decedent's room unannounced and found the decedent writing something on a piece of paper. She quickly hid the paper and when the daughter asked what it was, she said "it's just a letter to my doctor."

The daughter's observations, the suicide notes, the previous apparent suicide attempt by slicing the wrists -- all of it did suggest that Barnett was depressed about her physical condition and may have wanted to kill herself.

But again, I asked Havercroft, how does a 5-foot-3, 114-pound, 52-year-old woman with physical issues manage to shoot herself three times with a long gun into and through her chest, and still have the ability to finish herself off with a shot to the head?

"Yes, they were through-and-through, but I think one was through the breast. And if I remember, there were implants. So how does that become a critical injury?" he asked.

Indeed, the autopsy report does describe the shots as somewhat superficial: "The course of the 3 projectiles is through skin and soft tissue. One projectile does pass through the breast implant," the report reads. But one bullet passed through Barnett's left lung, and fractured ribs. If it was a suicide, that injury was apparently not something that could keep Barnett from continuing to fire at herself.

I thanked Havercroft for being helpful, and there was no doubt in my mind that he had reached a firm conclusion. He asked me to contact the Sheriff's Office directly if I had any further questions.

Over the years, David Miscavige's detractors have raised the strange details of his mother-in-law's death to suggest that he or the church may have had some reason to want her dead. In a 1994 affidavit in a court case growing out of the massive legal morass following Time magazine's 1991 cover story, "Scientology: The Cult of Greed," former high-ranking church executive Vicki Aznaran testified that Barnett had become part of an embarrassing splinter group that had rejected Miscavige's leadership of Scientology.

"Flo Barnett's membership in this group made her a suppressive person as she was actively 'squirreling' and a member of a suppressive group," Aznaran testified, referring to Scientology's word for heretic -- squirrel. "The fact that David Miscavige was linked to her by familial ties was extremely repugnant to him and to his wife, Michelle Miscavige."

Aznaran testified that she witnessed Miscavige comment on Barnett's death, "the bitch got what she deserved."

Another former church executive, Robert Vaughn Young, spelled out in his own court declaration the irregularities in Barnett's death, and what investigators might not have considered: "What the authorities didn't know was that she had left Scientology and was associating with apostates, to the anger of her son-in- law Miscavige."

In his own affidavit in the same case, however, Miscavige denied that he had anything to do with Barnett's death. And we'll give him the last word:

Not only is there no evidence to support this claim by Young, but there is clear evidence to the contrary. With the reports of the coroner and the medical examiner's investigator, and with the deposition of the medical examiner...all to the unanimous, unequivocal conclusion that Ms. Barnett died from self-inflicted gunshots -- Young has the temerity to suggest that I should be investigated to determine what he calls my role in that tragic suicide. With complete disdain for the facts and no regard whatsoever for any sense of decency, Young has taken a personal tragedy in my family's life, the suicide of my mother-in-law, and attempted to make this an issue in this lawsuit by twisting it to imply non-existent wrongdoing on my part. I not only had nothing to do with this tragic incident, but Vaughn Young's gratuitous embellishment that I ordered the matter "hushed up" is equally false.

If Kitchings' warnings of the flimsy investigations by Los Angeles homicide bureaus gave me pause, Havercroft's certainty about his conclusion seemed to carry significant weight.

But I have to admit, I'm still left wondering about that small woman offing herself through such a superhuman effort.



Tony Ortega is the editor-in-chief of The Village Voice. Since 1995, he's been writing about Scientology at several publications.

tortega@villagevoice.com | @VoiceTonyO | Facebook: Tony Ortega

Keep up on all of our New York news coverage at this blog, Runnin' Scared


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My Voice Nation Help
145 comments
skybooks
skybooks

Why is there scant mention of the murder weapon; and more importantly, it origins and ownership.  There is also too little investigation of motive.  when you do not understand something, you investigate further. If the medical examiner thought it was strange, as did the detective, there is something that does not make sense.  There is more to this case that have not been solved. People get too hung up on whether or not DM did it or was involved. That is not really the first question one should ask. He is, at the very least, a person of interest due to the animosity. He was never investigated.  This was not an investigation. It was a conclusion without a full investigation of all the unpulled strings.

PennyCillin
PennyCillin

Tell me again how, after shattering rib bone and fragments into the lung, after penetrating the lung which causes immediate struggle for breath and drowning in one's own blood,, how and WHY did she keep shooting?

1subgenius
1subgenius

Assuming it was suicide, kinda shows Scientology doesn't work or help people.

Guest
Guest

 I really bugged my parents for a Ruger 10/22 when I was a kid because it's relatively easy to convert to full-auto and you can buy all sorts of accessories for it, it's a gun enthusiasts gun. 22's are nice because the ammunition is cheap.

 Supposedly Miscavige is some sort of a gun-nut, this seems like the sort of gun he might have possessed or owned. Hard to say though since there are so many guns in this country.

Jgg
Jgg

  Here are comments I received about this article from a former female detective:

" Probably was a suicide given what Havercroft found. Women don't usually use guns of any kind for suicide. I still find it hard to believe that the blow alone, even through a breast implant, would not be sufficient to cease her efforts to continue to shoot herself."

  So, it's not conclusive at all, and, when you add Shelly's mysterious disappearence, you have to wonder.

Sid
Sid

There are enough real and genuine abuses and crimes committed by Miscavige, Hubbard and his church, that I don't think it reflects well on the critic community to go after tenuous ones like this.

Havercroft seems like a credible and respected investigator who was happy to talk to a journalist about it, so I think we just have to leave it there.

Excellent investigative journalism Tony.

Andie
Andie

Thank you for following this up, Tony. It is a tragic story, but I think in the end the deputy made the right call. Four gunshots with a rifle sounds impossible for a suicide, until learning it was a .22 LR rifle. Even if it had been a very well covered up murder, there's no way he would be able to make the case, given the circumstances.

DO
DO

Tony, there was a man standing on the side of the road when JFK was assassinated.  He was wearing a dark suit, and, despite hot sunny weather, he was opening and closing a black umbrella immediately when JFK drove by (and was subsequently shot).  Was he a signal?  After the assassination, the Umbrella Man was seen sitting with a "swarthy" fellow on the side of the road, displaying no emotions.  You should look into this, too!  You might solve the JFK assassination!

touretzky
touretzky

Great work on the Flo Barnett story, Tony.  It's nice to see real reporting take the place of rumor and innuendo. I expect DM will be sending you a warm thank you note for your efforts.

S. P.
S. P.

I've never shot myself, but I have experienced the amazing effects of adrenaline. Even very catastrophic wounds can be painless before inflammation begins to set in, if you are on an adrenaline high.

We in the peanut gallery can have no idea whether it was suicide or homicide.

DMSTCC
DMSTCC

Off topic: Is this the squirrelbusters documentary? I just can't get enough of Jim Lynch getting smacked around...

www (dot) youtube (dot) com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PZG_7V4RdB8 

DMSTCC
DMSTCC

Off topic: Is this the squirrelbusters documentary? I just can't get enough of Jim Lynch getting smacked around...

www (dot) youtube (dot) com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PZG_7V4RdB8 

Garry90069
Garry90069

Too often, we hear or read about investigations that go wrong, and I think this one of them.First, one has to realize this "suicide" occurred in LA County where suicides & murders are frequent. One would need to question how many sheriff's investigators were working homicide cases at the time, and what the backlog of cases were back then. It would show how much pressure was being applied to detectives to "wrap up" cases quickly versus giving the case the investigative time it required. 

Second, there is the pending murder case of former Illinois cop Drew Peterson, whose 3rd wife was found dead in an empty bathtub. Despite the presence of abusives & abrasions on the victim, the coroner, after speaking to a police detective friend of Peterson, ruled it to be "accidental". Four years later, after his 4th wife went missing, an independent coroner, exhumed her body and declared her to be the victim of homicide.  Peterson is in jail on murder charges while police continue to search for his missing 4th wife.

The Flo Barnett case needs to be reopened with investigators independent of the LA Sheriffs Department, which has been too influenced by Scientology.

3rdman
3rdman

Tony, I'd do some research about this metabolic chemical known as adrenaline if you want answers. It does amazing things, making people sometimes superhuman. Its hard to believe, I know, after that first shot to the chest, the adrenaline kicks in. It dulls pain, keeps other organs working, and it doesn't stop working just because your 52 with health problems.

Remember Pablo Escobar? How many times did he get shot before he died? And don't get me started with Rasputin.

Lliira
Lliira

It sounds to me like the detective was sure the husband didn't do it, and that therefore it couldn't have been murder. Most women who are murdered, are murdered by a male significant other or ex. But not all. I don't think the detective investigated this particular case fully enough. 

DeckardCain
DeckardCain

WINNER!!

The 'tech' is dangerous.  The fact that Scientology has a policy on how to handle psychotic breaks (the policy is to offload the victim as quickly as possible) is evidence that it happened enough times to have an actual policy.  I just don't understand why those that left the cult purposefully want to be trapped in their minds by this harmful practice.  

Dan Garvin
Dan Garvin

Doesn't seem like a good murder for DM. If he was going to have somebody killed, there were people whose whose death would have been far more worth the risk of getting caught. The detective's scenario is unusual but not implausible. She'd shot herself three times and found herself not only alive but conscious. She would have been in great pain. The extreme, but terminal, effort and pain of carrying out the final shot probably seemed worth it.

Radio Paul
Radio Paul

I have ranted about this many times in front of the DC ORG. I bet the Clams all think it is made up. The crazy thing is that Scientology has so many of these things in it's past that it just becomes hard to believe at some point.

SP 'Onage
SP 'Onage

What about David Miscavige's prostitute sister, is she still alive? I bet the "missing" Shelly Miscavige and a whole lot of other people know the (truth) real story.

$cientology is like an onion; you peel off one layer at a time and sometimes you weep.

SP 'Onage
SP 'Onage

What about David Miscavige's prostitute sister, is she still alive? I bet the "missing" Shelly Miscavige and a whole lot of other people know the (truth) real story.

$cientology is like an onion; you peel off one layer at a time and sometimes you weep.

mjm
mjm

looks like the cult is already trying to steer away from this potential shitstorm: Kelly Preston is on the cover of People (who btw did a revealing article about the cult in 1983 and hasn't gone down that path since, opting for puff pieces. Misscavige got to them I bet) hawking her "best friend" Kirstie's diet crap. well, the Enquirer already revealed that BOTH Kelly and Kirstie have had gastric bypass surgeries...

Guest
Guest

One more thing, it'd be interesting to know if the bullets were solid nosed or hollow-point, hollows points are much more destructive and traumatically wounding and it's hard to believe that could shoot themselves three times in the chest and fire another shot. It seems possible, just not very likely.

NCSP
NCSP

It's actually a misconception that women rarely use guns to commit suicide. They use them significantly less than men do, which is where I think the confusion comes from. In 2004, 32.4% of female suicides used a gun, only slightly less than poison, the number one method (37.8%). They also tend to shoot themselves in the chest more than men do (men usually go right for the head or face).

DO
DO

Right, if someone was going for murder, would they really use what amounts to a glorified BB gun?

SP 'Onage
SP 'Onage

Not only have you made a comment that has nothing to do with the article, it also has absolutely nothing to do with anything else. Congratulations.

SP 'Onage
SP 'Onage

Not only have you made a comment that has nothing to do with the article, it also has absolutely nothing to do with anything else. Congratulations.

DO
DO

Really?  So you don't think that this line has innuendo:

"It has something to do with Scientology, right?"

PennyCillin
PennyCillin

@S. P. 

True, adrenaline is a powerful chemical.  However, adrenaline is usually what saves us, not what kills us.  Adrenaline helps us decide quickly, and gives us the temporary muscle strength, to SAVE ourselves not kill ourselves.

In the absolute vast majority of gunshot suicides, when one shot causes immediate struggle for breath and drowning in one's own blood, they STOP shooting.  They do not keep shooting. 

SP 'Onage
SP 'Onage

Wow. I had a good laugh, lolWho is the commentator of that mess? It sounds like a late night infomercial. Haha

SP 'Onage
SP 'Onage

Wow. I had a good laugh, lolWho is the commentator of that mess? It sounds like a late night infomercial. Haha

Tye Solaris
Tye Solaris

Good Post.

However, I understand that Davey and the COS has a very close "relationship" with the Sheriff of LA County.... 

SP 'Onage
SP 'Onage

Most women don't commit suicide with only their (clad in panties) underwear on, especially a $cientologist who has been taught even masturbation is a crime.

Scilon's really have a lot of sexual hang-ups. It's a pity because, "Sex works...and it helps people."

NCSP
NCSP

I had the same thought. Why not go after Mayo himself if he was going to kill someone? They seem to have been much, much more preoccupied with him at the time. If they'd staged something with drugs, that would have effectively ruined his rep with Scientologists for good and might have brought lots of the AAC people (including, possibly, Barnett) back into the fold.

Xenu
Xenu

The sister with the wild rep is Denise (Miscavige, Licciardi) Gentile, DM's twin.  I don't have any personal knowledge as to the accuracy of the rumors.  She is still in, and was recently mentioned in the Kyle Brennan suicide story.

DO
DO

The National Enquirer, always a great source for facts!

DO
DO

Oh really?

Occam's razor suggests that the woman Tony writes about, in light of both earlier suicide attempts (judging by the wrist wounds) AND police investigators concluding as much, was a suicide.

It is sensationalism to imply that DM was somehow involved, simply because he was her son-in-law and that they may have been feuding.  There is simply no proof of that.  Indeed, if she was murdered (unlikely), it was most likely someone living in the trailer park.  There's absolutely nothing to tie him, or Scientology in general, to her death.

My point about the JFK Umbrella Man is simply that any event, when closely examined, can lead to all sorts of possible conspiracies and complex plots.  In the case of the Umbrella Man, there was a simple explanation for why he was doing what he was doing.  (Indeed, Google "nytimes errol morris umbrella man".)

Next we may hear about how DM's neighbor's dog went missing during the Freewinds asbestos cleanup?  Or about how Tom Cruise's most popular movie was released on the exact day when Marty Rathbun left Scientology?  Or about how Trementina had an especially harsh outbreak of the flu while Scientology was negotiating a land purchase?

Sure, in this case, I suppose there could have been some complex plot involving folks sneaking into a trailer park, murdering a woman with a number of point blank shots first to the chest and then to the head (after all, the shots can easily be determined to be point blank), planting the gun and her fingerprint on the gun, and then leaving.

But, really, the simplest explanation is the most likely: that she killed herself.

DO
DO

Oh really?

Occam's razor suggests that the woman Tony writes about, in light of both earlier suicide attempts (judging by the wrist wounds) AND police investigators concluding as much, was a suicide.

It is sensationalism to imply that DM was somehow involved, simply because he was her son-in-law and that they may have been feuding.  There is simply no proof of that.  Indeed, if she was murdered (unlikely), it was most likely someone living in the trailer park.  There's absolutely nothing to tie him, or Scientology in general, to her death.

My point about the JFK Umbrella Man is simply that any event, when closely examined, can lead to all sorts of possible conspiracies and complex plots.  In the case of the Umbrella Man, there was a simple explanation for why he was doing what he was doing.  (Indeed, Google "nytimes errol morris umbrella man".)

Next we may hear about how DM's neighbor's dog went missing during the Freewinds asbestos cleanup?  Or about how Tom Cruise's most popular movie was released on the exact day when Marty Rathbun left Scientology?  Or about how Trementina had an especially harsh outbreak of the flu while Scientology was negotiating a land purchase?

Sure, in this case, I suppose there could have been some complex plot involving folks sneaking into a trailer park, murdering a woman with a number of point blank shots first to the chest and then to the head (after all, the shots can easily be determined to be point blank), planting the gun and her fingerprint on the gun, and then leaving.

But, really, the simplest explanation is the most likely: that she killed herself.

anon anon song
anon anon song

"a $cientologist who has been taught even masturbation is a crime."

Obviously comes later in the indoctrination drill.

Xenu
Xenu

Then again, most women who shoot themselves don't hit a breast implant.

Scientology wasn't always as sexually repressive as it is now, in my opinion.  I think that it took a turn for the worse after the release of "Pain and Sex" in '82.

SP 'Onage
SP 'Onage

Did Mayo threaten to sue the dwarf two days before...Maybe Miscavige took it real personal because she was suppose to be family and a mother figure, another let down once again by a parent. Dad was a rapist etc....who knows what psycho davey is capable of?

Tye Solaris
Tye Solaris

Double Posts can be caused by the particular 'Browser' you are using.... I have found it makes a difference..  

Xenu
Xenu

OK, I'll buy that.

My own experience was that sexual repression in the CoS, SO possibly excepted, wasn't so bad before '82.  Hubbard said things like that masturbation often restimulated engrams, but what if that didn't seem to happen?  What then, would be the overt?  I knew of lots of randy goings on, among both staff and public, back in the day. 

But as far as the implant thing goes, I'll concede that my argument was weak.

Xenu
Xenu

My point was more that the boob job doesn't fit the stereotype of an extremely sexually repressed person.  Before "Pain and Sex" came out, my impression was that most Scientologists had sexual hangups based mainly on their upbringing, not on Hubbard's weirdness.  I don't think it's safe to assume that, just because she was a Scientologist, Flo had a problem with being found undressed.

Lliira
Lliira

Sexual repression and getting breast implants are 100% compatible. Sexual repression for women is largely about hating our bodies as they are.

SP 'Onage
SP 'Onage

Why is this DisQus posting double posts? I am only posting it once. Sheesh! This makes the second time it's done it to me.

SP 'Onage
SP 'Onage

Why is this DisQus posting double posts? I am only posting it once. Sheesh! This makes the second time it's done it to me.

Myriam Breitman
Myriam Breitman

Most people who shoot themselves in the chest probably don't have a breast implant in the first place.  However, among the women with breast implants who chose to commit a suicide by way of shooting themselves through the heart, most are quite likely to hit an implant in process. I just don't think that many women with fake boobs commit suicides, because  normally by increasing their cup size they get all confident and happy and find a reason to live.

SP 'Onage
SP 'Onage

That's another thing, she was vain enough to get breast implants, I'm sure that cost her a pretty penny even back then. You wouldn't think she would want to damage them even in death. I mean, she seem to care about her meat body.

SP 'Onage
SP 'Onage

That's another thing, she was vain enough to get breast implants, I'm sure that cost her a pretty penny even back then. You wouldn't think she would want to damage them even in death. I mean, she seem to care about her meat body.

Dan Garvin
Dan Garvin

Maybe, but it's pure speculation. I don't think it's so much what he's capable of. I believe he'd happily murder anyone he considered a problem if he was sure there'd be no consequences to himself or to COS. But there very likely would be huge consequences. True, he's certainly shown very bad judgment in a lot of his choices. But, so far, he's been adept at avoiding legal entanglements for himself personally and, in things that would matter to him personally, for the COS and RTC. I don't think this is coincidence. He beats and humiliates freely when he feels secure doing it, but I think he's canny enough to know there are lines he must never cross.

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