Scientology's Future History! A Vision from 1969, and our Stats Roundup

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On Thursdays, Scientologists race to turn in their weekly stats, and we like to do the same, looking at how the church has fared around the world.

This week, before we get to a couple of press items, we're going to start with something special.

One of our tipsters sent us something that we always get a kick out of -- a vision of the future written in the past.

In this case, Scientology's Advance! magazine envisioned what the year 2010 would be like, from back in those heady days of 1969, when Scientology was in its heyday, considered cool by some, and, as we've pointed out before, could maybe even get you laid.

Here's that page from Advance!, and below we'll print the transcript...

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[Click the image to enlarge]


Scientology Mothar
Space Org Success on Another Planet: Year 2010


What has it been like since Dianetics and Scientology were introduced to our planet? It's been fantastic!

There's been a lot of groovy changes. For example, we found that the smog in our capital city, Cazon, all cleared up after we cleared 35% of the city's population. And, you know the desert on Salmar our climatologists hadn't been able to explain -- suddenly began to have regular rainfall and has since become an exceedingly remunerative inter-galactic resort.

In fact, since we promoted Monar Sal, OT VIII, to the head of the Global Weather Bureau the weather has been a damn sight better and we've had no more wshed out baseball games or rocket car races.

The medical authorities eagerly cooperated with Dianetics right from beginning. And with the impact of Dianetics the medicos made real advances in their own field. Why it's routine now if a guy gets his body too badly smashed up and it can't be saved that our medicos fly in a new body unit to him and then run out the engram.

Of course, the frequency of such accidents is almost zero now.

I remember how it used to be before that day when the blue and gold space ships of the Space Org wafted down fluttering huge banners which said (in our own language, mind you) BEINGS OF MOTHAR, GOOD NEWS, SCIENTOLOGY IS HERE, TOTAL FREEDOM AWAITS YOU.

To say the least, though we were surprised, the Central Office was flooded the next day with countless thousands of requests to find out about Scientology.

I was one of the many who did so. The day afterwards I bought a book in our language called DIANETICS THE MODERN SCIENCE OF MENTAL HEALTH by L. Ron Hubbard.

Within a week I was on the HSDC and soon I was proud to become at AO Mothar, Scientology Clear No. 10. Quickly most of the planet's population followed suit.

There were, of course, a few die-hards -- who claimed man couldn't be helped, that all life was basically composed of star dust and that man's destiny was directed mysteriously by rays of star light. Their "therapy" was to knock someone out so he could "see stars." How spooked can someone get? Anyway, we sent these pathetic few to a secluded island where they could get special attention, rest and quiet. Eventually, even they realized there was hope and through Dianetics were completely rehabilitated and became useful beings.

Before the famous blue and gold brought Scientology to us, our planet was deadlocked in deadly interplanetary warfare with Cornawal and it was a flip of a coin chance for survival.

Fortunately for all concerned, the Space Org with its typical efficiency also arrived on Cornawal at the same time they visited here. I say "fortunately" as we were just about to blast each other out of orbit.

Besides war, there were all the other usual pre-Scientology unsolved conditions. For example, despite our latest spaceships and matter transformers, inexplicable sickness was rife and the suicide rate was hitting an alarming high. The drug traffic from the Third Sector was just about wiping out the sane ambition of half the younger generation. Frankly, we'd about had it and I wouldn't have given you two mombs for planetary insurance for Mothar.

Dianetics and Scientology changed all that.

Life is now harmonious, productive and fun. We've looked outward to bigger and bigger games.

As for myself, I'm now wearing the blue and gold Space Org uniform and I'll be gonig soon on my fifth mission to bring Scientology and Ron's bridge to Total Freedom to the lucky beings of yet another galaxy.


I'm not sure what a "momb" is, but I am pretty excited about the Space Org showing up in the lower atmosphere to proclaim, GOOD NEWS, SCIENTOLOGY IS HERE, TOTAL FREEDOM AWAITS YOU. That just seems like an image begging for some Photoshopping. Sponge?

Thursday's Stats: Upstat or Downstat? Having just seen the humorless robots shuffling between buildings in Clearwater, it's almost hard to believe that at one point, Scientology had this kind of far-out-space-hippie tang to it. No wonder the oldtimers are dropping out while complaining that things are no longer any fun. Just bringing back up this vision of the Space Org future points out what a flat bummer David Miscavige's church is, so I'm feeling a contact downstat here.


Story #2: Bunker Mentality

Portland radio host Jesse Singer really scored when he had on Mark Bunker and Jefferson Hawkins for two hours this past weekend [Hour One, Hour Two], discussing all sorts of things happening in the world of Scientology right now.

I could listen to Hawkins and Bunker all day. These are not only two of the more knowledgeable Scientology watchers out there, but each bring a calm and intelligent clarity to the way they make the complexities of the church graspable.

I talked with Bunker after the show to ask him how the documentary is going. He says he's still trying to track down a few important final interviews before he can think about completing his project. If Bunker is trying to get you, give him a call! We all want to see this movie!

Thursday's Stats: Upstat or Downstat? We certainly wish people like Jefferson Hawkins and Mark Bunker got more airtime. And we appreciated the shout-out this blog got from the host, Singer. A downstat for the church that deserved to be heard by a wider audience.


Story #3: Auditors in Bow Ties

This is positively spooky. We've mentioned before that Louis Farrakhan for some reason fell in love with the whitest man who ever lived, L. Ron Hubbard, some six years ago or so, and has been promoting him to his Nation of Islam followers in a big way.

And now the researchers over at WhyWeProtest.net have noticed that NOI's in-house publication, The Final Call, reports that 1,000 members of the Nation of Islam have been certified as Dianetics auditors.

Thursday's Stats: Upstat or Downstat? We know that Miscavige's ever-shrinking church is desperate for new bodies. But we can't help thinking that at some point Scientology is going to deeply regret hooking up with Farrakhan's nutters.


**********
Tony Ortega has been the editor in chief of the Village Voice since March, 2007. He started writing about Scientology in 1995. You can reach him by e-mail at tortega@villagevoice.com, and if you ask nicely he'll put you on his mailing list for notifications of new stories, which tend to come out each and every morning at 8 am, but can suddenly appear at any time of the day. You can also catch his alerts at Twitter (@VoiceTonyO), at his Facebook author page, on Pinterest, a Tumblr, and even this new Google Plus doohickey.

New readers might want to check out our primer, "What is Scientology?" Another good overview is our series from last summer, "Top 25 People Crippling Scientology." At the top of every story, you'll see the "Scientology" category which, if you click on it, will bring up all of our most recent stories. As for our regular features, on Thursdays we do a roundup of world press, on Fridays we visit L. Ron Hubbard on the yacht Apollo circa 1969-1971, on Saturdays we celebrate the week's best comments, and on Sundays we publish Scientology's wacky and tacky advertising mailers that people send us.

As for hot subjects we've covered here, you may have heard about Debbie Cook, the former church official who rebelled and is now being sued by Scientology. You might have also heard about the Super Power Building, Scientology's "Mecca," whose secrets were revealed here. We also reported how Scientology spied on its own most precious object, Tom Cruise. (We wrote Tom an open letter that he has yet to respond to.) Have you seen a Scientology ad on TV lately? We debunked some of the claims in that 2-minute commercial you might have seen while watching Glee or American Idol.

Other stories have looked at Scientology's policy of "disconnection" that is tearing families apart. You may also have heard something about the Sea Org experiences of the Paris sisters, Valeska and Melissa, and their friend Ramana Dienes-Browning. We've also featured Paulette Cooper, who wrote about Scientology back in the day, and Janet Reitman, Hugh Urban, and the team at the Tampa Bay Times, who write about it today. And there's plenty more coming.



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204 comments
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zenda
zenda

 25. I worked personally with Hubbard on the ship called the Apollo, from 1971-73. Ipersonally observed Hubbard running all aspects of Scientology and Sea Org and GuardianOffice ("GO") networks. Indeed, at the time I believed Hubbard has saved mylife. I had been "overboarded" or thrown aboard. Hubbard then ordered that I bepulled out. Thereafter I believed Hubbard had saved my life and I became very dedicated toboth him and Scientology. I served as both steward and butler for Hubbard. Accordingly, Iwas often alone with him -- even when he was self injecting himself in the arm with aneedle and solution. This he did frequently. I would also lay out the pills he took from10 different numbered bottles.As found in truth about scientologyANDRE TABAYOYON

scilonschools
scilonschools

Tony your Village Voice Blog is the most SP site on the NET!!

A computer i sometimes use that belongs to a friend with 'connections', will no longer access your Blog. It's internet browser shows an error on any Voice article now.It will still access Mart's Blog and Critic sites, but your SP Tech is just toooo powerful for the most hardened OT's to endure!!

Congrats to you!!    :)

scilonschools
scilonschools

Tony hope you don't mind, i used to send link only to your article, with the latest development i send link and cut and paste entire article to 'some' people. with paragrogh between-

You may experince difficulty accessing this site , if problem persist please contact your systems administrator/life coach/'best friend'/auditor/hypnotist and request system update to allow reality check.

Hope i am not infringing VV copyright?

DodoTheLaser
DodoTheLaser

SCIENTOLOGY MOTHAR title, story and a picture accompanied is definition of BIZARRE.  

Noone
Noone

DM hooked up with FarraCON when one of FarraCons nephews was doing a NarCONon rehab in Oklahoma.  Said nephew was a "success" and DM had an "in".  A cursory google search on Eric Holder, Obama and NoI may reveal why the DoJ is reluctant to do ANYTHING about the well documented abuse, inurement and unbridled GREED in the Church of Miscavology.  It's politics as usual inside the beltway.  In the meantime Romney is ominously silent about the Mormons necro-dunking practices, including posthumously baptizing Holocaust victims.Exmormon DOT org reads very much like the Ex Scientologist Message Board, with bizarre real estate investments, Ponzi schemes and selective doctrine, so I wouldn't expect any justice even if there is a changing of the guard...

Jgg
Jgg

  You may have noticed that Farrakhan recommends Dianetics for White people only.  What does that tell you?

BigGrizzlyBear
BigGrizzlyBear

A momb,as surely everyone knows, is exactly 71 sploofs Tony!! Even a flubbed up half ack like you should know that!

I may even fork over a few of my own mombs to send you to the island mentioned above so you can get the 'special treatment' you need!

Sheesh! Some people!

Well a sciloonbologists work is never done I guess!

California
California

Story #3 caught my eye.  This is something very new, I think..... DM openly hooking up with another high demand group with religiosity over-tones.  Each with a leader that regards himself as a "sole source" to his followers/disciples, etc.

Popcorn time.

Do any of the higher-up former SCN'ers remember a time when LRH or DM has ever had such a relationship with another group?  If so, how did it go?

omg
omg

in a way he hooked up with rosicrucians - his uncle elbert hubbard was one in the USA. he was also a hugely popular guru in his time - message to garcia and life love and work. if you read these you will see a lot of lrh came from that text - including the five levels of employee from working on their own to destructive. this last is now animated in a short movie called the cart by performia - it is on the wise website

Unex Skcus
Unex Skcus

Shades of Captain Bill and his Galactic Patrol!

SP 'Onage
SP 'Onage

"I was wearing glasses when I went for my first Dianetics session. I had been wearing them for six years and my vision was steadily deteriorating. During the session I discovered why I had started wearing glasses. All of a sudden I felt a tremendous surge of inner strength and certainty. I took my glasses off and I felt terrific. Things looked really clear. That was over twenty years ago and I haven’t worn glasses since. Today my vision is almost perfect. Dianetics really works."R.B.Dianetics Auditing

So, what's up Louis Farrakhan? Why have you been wearing glasses for six Dianetic years? Supetpowerz 20/20 Vision Tech ain't working out for ya?

I came across this video, Die-netics Scientology Death And Deception. It's nice to see some black people aren't buying into this crap. I laughed so hard when they called LRon a, "Judas Goat," and mentioned the comparisons of scientology and Aleister Crowley's black magick.

You can view the YouTube video under this title:

The Nation Of Islam Finally See's Cracks In Scientology: Not Happy!

Jgg
Jgg

My predictions for 2050 AD.

1.  The Indies and Daveys will be fighting over the billions of dollars which hollywood celebrities left to the Church of Scientology in their wills;

2. These two will also recognize two different people as the reincarnation of L. Ron Hubbard, who will battle over the right to live in Bonnie May;

3.  In both cases the courts will stay out of the mess, avoiding "entanglement of church and state" (remember, Scientology is a religion ;-));

4.  The IRS will conveniently decide that Scientology owes taxes because it is no longer non-profit and seize billions of dollars worth of real estate;

5.  Fictionology, originally an internet parody of Scientology, will actually be a thriving, tolerant religion in Hollywood and elsewhere with millions of members;

Clear
Clear

" How spooked can someone get? Anyway, we sent these pathetic few to a secluded island where they could get special attention, rest and quiet. "

I don't mind violating Godwin's law to make an appropriate analogy. 

OTVIIIisGrrr8!
OTVIIIisGrrr8!

The 1969 Scientology story of "Mothar" was a prophecy about the "Mother" Plane contained in the core Nation of Islam R6 implant.

"Monar Sal" is anagrammed to "Normals" and so we see the prophecy fulfilled: Scientology has brought normalcy to the Nation of Islam by revealing its "Mother Plane" belief as an R6 implant. Free of this strange belief, the Nation of Islam is now free to migrate Scientology into the larger Islamic world globally.

Brought now to truth of Scientology, the 1,000 NOI Dianetics auditors will go forth and bring Scientology sanity into Islam itself. Instead of bowing five times per day to Mecca, Muslims will grab the cans of their e-meters and audit out the Islamic R6 bank that makes them all insane. Muslims everywhere will travel to Flag, the true Mecca.

The Middle East tetters on the edge of nuclear war for lack of Scientology. Even the dead-in-the-head Christians with their "Jesus R6 implant" can see that Islam is irrational and that the Nation of Islam is needed to bring sanity to the 1/5 of the world that is Muslim.

This 1969 prophecy that Scientology would come to "other worlds" has now been fulfilled. Islam can breathe a sigh of relief that help is finally here. We in RTC look forward to Middle East oil wealth flowing into our coffers very soon as Saudi royalty and Imams everywhere get in on this groovy thing called Scientology!

sizzle8
sizzle8

 Remember that the Mother Plane is a DC-8.

LoyalOfficer
LoyalOfficer

I posted that bit about the NOI a few days ago here. It was our old pal Alfreddie Johnson from the Charter School in Florida who was interviewed for the Final Call piece. Cracked me up when he said his auditors could now make the dead rise. I am really curious to know how you audit or give touch assists to a corpse. It really hits the giggle button though when he says how this is what worshiping God and Christ are all about. It's like saying "WOW this orange juice is sooo much better after I brush my teeth."  

GarryS
GarryS

It continues to frustrate me, and I know I'm going to anger my friends who call themselves Independent Scientologists, why all the effort is made to paint David Miscavige as the dictator that needs to be removed so the legitimate & gracious side of Scientology can flourish, continuing to hold L. Ron Hubbard in high regard, when Mark Bunker said it best in his "Arrest Attempt" video shot in Clearwater.. "LRH wrote that anyone that attacks Scientology is a criminal."  This wasn't written into policy by David Miscavige, but by the founder of the Church of Scientology, so why Independent Scientologists, like Debbie Cook, goes to such lengths to re-write the past and sanitize LRH and what he wrote, in response to critics, is totally confusing to many.

Seayaorg
Seayaorg

because there is money in peddling hope - only after the money has been spent and time has passed can you see in hindsight you bought into ... - but then you are 'convinced' and entangled and probably contracted. I am annoyed about the policy picking. debbie cook is an febc - she has seen a lot of policies like 'anyone who quits the SO is a db' people who want to quit are psychotic etc - but she buries it - then all the SP policies, if she looked she would see she IS now violating them from the churchs point of view - and there is physically ill and no case gain pcs tech - snaffling CF and peddling other things, anything that costs the org money - complaining about the org expansion - just pointing out the church point of view. blaming the org and org terminals is SP

MarkStark
MarkStark

Mostly, I like the way the Indies do it, in that they aren't hard selling it to any raw meat using deceptive tactics. It's hard to change other people's thinking or behavior  in anything, unless the person is open, undecided and looking to you for answers. That's one of the reasons Scientology fools people the way it does. People go to Scientology looking for answers. Some people think Tom Cruise probably has important answers because he's successful and rich or they are impressed by the wealth of the organization. The Indies don't have that to fool people with.

I don't have any answers in a way that would make your average Scientologist feel good, like those big questions Hubbard pretended to answer. After we die, I don't know if we live again, simply cease to exist, or if we join up with our creator in some way. If a person believes that a huckster like Hubbard had those answers, or showed them a way to find those answers for themselves, it's going to take them a while to think otherwise.

I'd like to see the main organization collapse, whether it goes through a process of trying to reform or not. I just think it is time, that's all.

NoMoreVisitsPlease
NoMoreVisitsPlease

Indeed, GaryS!  You are absolutely 100% spot on.  This continues to frustrate me too, in my own home, when my husband "relapses" and starts to talk about Scientology as though it is logical and legitimate.  It is not.

Too Much
Too Much

"...Louis Farrakhan for some reason fell in love with the whitest man who ever lived, L. Ron Hubbard..."

Oh that's an easy one. Both of these shitting insane criminals are absolutely insane and exist solely to rook and swindle money from the rubes, marks, and suckers. Farrakhan recognizes a good money making fraud when he sees one, it's no surprise that the insane shit pile is teaming up with another insane shit pile (the vertically challenged one) to commit felonies against people who may still have money to hand over.

Clarkle
Clarkle

I'd bet my last dollar that Farrakhan is getting a cut of the "donations" that his followers are duped out of.

Jefferson Hawkins
Jefferson Hawkins

Tony, thanks for digging up this gem, "Scientology Mothar!" Reminds me of the "high weirdness" factor in early Scientology that fascinated me - and I think many others. Past lives! Other planets! Ancient rocket ships! For a generation that grew up on Heinlein, Azimov and The Twilight Zone, it seemed to promise a universe that was not quite as ordinary, boring and suburban middle-class as the one we were used to. Back in the late 60s and early 70s, Scientology's freak flag was a plus with many young people. And everyone seemed to be an artist or writer - Advance Mag used to be flooded with this kind of home-grown amateur fiction, poems, illustrations and even cartoons. Well, say what you want, but at least they flaunted their freakiness with some panache. Now, in the interest of "blending in" and seeming "just like your ordinary Church," they keep all the weird stuff hidden until you get way up the line. I wonder what would happen if, instead of hiding and denying the Xenu stuff, they embraced it?

Unex Skcus
Unex Skcus

 "I wonder what would happen if, instead of hiding and denying the Xenu stuff, they embraced it?"

Ummm... they'd get a sense of humour back?

V for Vacation
V for Vacation

I'm curious - what do you think Hubbard would have thought of a CoS and Nation of Islam merger?  

guest
guest

He'd have loved it. He tried to get the Buddhists. Money trumps racism in the church apparently.

Too Much
Too Much

"If Bunker is trying to get you, give him a call! We all want to see this movie!"

Mark could still arrange a meeting with the IRS agent who captured so-called "Agent Silver," one of Scientology's domestic espionage criminals who was caught inside of the Washington IRS HQ offices photocopying tax documents of politicians, Judges, newspaper men and such, and inserting fraudulent documents inside of said peoples' IRS folders.

The man who captured the Scientology criminals is still alive. I have contact information for him which I conveyed to Mark years ago however the meeting never took place. The documentary would benefit from interviewing the man who got the felony indictment process rolling that exposed Operation Snow White.

grundoon
grundoon

If Mark doesn't interview Agent Silver, maybe Tony will!!

Too Much
Too Much

momb --- Man-on-man-blowjobs. It was a selling point back in 1969.

What's telling is that this lunatic nonsense was sold to the rubes in the same year that *actual* science landed men on the Moon. Funny how science works, insane criminal frauds like Scientology never do.

None
None

Six years ago? I recall seeing Farrakhan at CCINT around 18 years ago.

TonyOrtega
TonyOrtega

Could be. I thought it was in around 2006 that he started promoting it actively to his followers and asking them to get training. Could easily be wrong about that.

Tardy1967
Tardy1967

When they say cleared 35% of the cities population do they mean shot as they were too low on the tone scale or cleared as in turned into mindless drones smoking constantly?

Unex Skcus
Unex Skcus

 Nah, they found another volcano and dropped them into it.

mjm
mjm

Has anybody seen the new issue of the National Enquirer with a hooker saying that Travolta is among her clients (btw, she looked VERY manly.. hmm) With the NE's track record lately, the  announcement of John and Kelly's split should be imminent.

Too Much
Too Much

 Travolta is a homosexual, the hooker is lying unless she's really a man.

mjm
mjm

 correction: it was a male masseur. the poop has really hit the fan.

Chocolate Velvet
Chocolate Velvet

"The day afterwards I bought a book in our language called DIANETICS..."

"bought"?!? I howled with laughter at that! No, they didn't fly all the way to Mothar to GIVE anyone anything. But for a small fee, freedom can be yours! "We built spaceships, travelled far, printed plenty of Source material in your language - now give us that money, or get lost!". So telling. Scientology can't ever envision abandoning their mercenary ways, no matter what.

As for the NOI nonsense - this is just sci doing even more to marginalize themselves. This group (NOI) is on the FAR fringe of Black America; believe that. The misogyny and contemptuous militant attitude is just puzzling to most of us. Plus, they only scare white people, those angry black men with stern faces. ;) The COB is truly desperate if he sees a link with NOI as a win. Farrakhan and his ilk is as close as they will ever get to winning over Black America.

bobx
bobx

That will be three bantha horns and fifty movvil beads, please!

MarkStark
MarkStark

Not only would you think that by 2010, the Scientologists would be giving Dianutty away for free to the people of Mothar, but that they would have figured out how to deliver it in a more advanced form, like a suppository.

I guess some things never change. It's just like 75 million years ago, when the streets and houses looked pretty much the same, according to Hubbard.

When landing on Mothar, instead of "Take me to your leader" the Scientologist said, "Will that be cash or credit?"

Jonathan Hendry
Jonathan Hendry

" in a more advanced form, like a suppository."

That would be redundant.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob

Remember, L Ron taught his dupes that the only way to really help people was to make them BUY Diarrhetics, because if you were to give it away, then the PC* would not see it as having value. 

* PC - Scientology term for "mark" or "victim."

bobx
bobx

Some fava beans and a nice Chianti...

N. Graham
N. Graham

Cloudy or Clear?Candied BT Clusters?

MarkStark
MarkStark

 Some chapters from the book:

1. Choosing the Right Wine2. Tasty Side Dishes3. Broiled or Baked4. Quick Treats -- Scientologist on a Stick

MarkStark
MarkStark

When some of these Scientologists start going on their galactic travels, they are more bloody likely to find an inhabited planet where they worship The Three Stooges, and the populace knocks their heads together and throws pies, rather than finding a blank-slate planet they will colonize and get everyone to buy into Dianutty.

On the other hand, if a spaceship landed and they set up a book table, I'd probably buy whatever they were selling and hope that the book was about them and the way they live. I'd be sorely disappointed if it were a book of cuckoo about "engrams" and the like.

My theory about Mothar is they are buying Dianutty just to give the Scientologists money to buy food -- to fatten them up as a protein source -- in preparation to write their own bestselling book: HOW TO SERVE SCIENTOLOGISTS.

Jgg
Jgg

  What is interesting is how much Scientology (blaming psychs for WWII; predictions in 1969 that were way off) is easily debunked, even though many followers never question it.

sketto
sketto

True. I've also found it interesting that so many Independent Scientologists, who should know better since they're currently free from the oppressive influence of the cult, continue to revere Hubbard. Even if you think his "tech" is cool, how could you possibly see the magnitude of the pure bullshit and lies that he spread and not wonder just how often he actually told the truth. 50%? 80%?

How can you devote your life to the ideas of such a consistently false man and not wonder if you're wasting your time seeking truth in a man who disregarded truth regularly? It seems that any normal human mind would ask itself this question.

I'd be willing to bet that these kinds of things from Advance as well as the Commodore's missives that Tony keeps posting have to be among the most troubling for anyone who comes over here from Marty's Miscavige-obsessed blog. This nuttiness is really the one thing that they cannot possibly blame Miscavige for. This is just pure Hubbard-influenced, un-scientific, completely-invented crap.  Reading the insanity that Hubbard spewed daily has to take a significant amount of luster off the rest of his "scriptures".

Scientia
Scientia

Those ideas do not require devotion or faith. Those ideas enable an individual to uncover his own truth, something that ultimately lies within him and not any author or guru. Scrape away Hubbard's sci-fi fluff, his organisational zeal and a few of his other moments of crazy, and you have a basic philosophy, a self-improvement methodology, that actually demands its students to inspect and to question at every turn. That was what attracted me to the subject in the first place; that is why I use it in my life to this day. Studied with a degree of intelligence, common sense and with a critical mindset - away from any group or environment that discourages or suppresses these things - the subject, imho, has much to offer.

It is said there is often a fine line between genius and insanity. I believe Hubbard walked that line (occasionally slipping) and that is ultimately how a unique and insightful system of self-enhancement gave birth to a radical, mafia-like religious cult.

As an indie Scientologist I have the freedom to use the "genius" of Hubbard without conforming to the extremist group-think of a cult - a cult that not only encourages his "insanity" but actively enforces it.

Scientia
Scientia

My understanding is that the efficacy of other therapies (such as CBT) are researched against placebo for use in the treatment of very specific psychological disorders. That could certainly be done with auditing (to determine its effectiveness (or lack of) as a therapy for use in the field of mental healing), but outside of that I'm not sure what could be realistically measured. (Scientology therapy is fundamentally a spiritual endeavour; one may as well study the value of prayer or magick, no?) Saying that, however, I remember a study done a few years ago on long-time Buddhists, brain images of which showed a link between meditation and a reduction of activity in the amygdala (the part associated with anger and stress). It would be interesting to see if there are any similarly measurable results from long-term practice of TRs, for example, or maybe even BT exorcism (wouldn't that be something!).

I have no idea if the benefits of Scientology can be gained elsewhere. All I can say is that I have explored a number of avenues in my time but it was Scientology that held my interest the longest, and its application where I had the greatest success. (Why that is I can only speculate). Should I dismiss that success because its long-dead creator joins the queue of creative thinkers with a dark and loony side? Hell no. I believe I have enough of the smarts to evaluate a concept or claim Hubbard presents in his writings and to differentiate between a workable idea and fanciful fluff. I certainly don't need to fact check every word he uttered about his personal life or supposed "research" to determine whether there is really any benefit to be gained from the use of the ARC Triangle or his therapy. I appreciate that then comes back to my own personal belief and testimonials but, as the "customer" here, I'm happy with that. I am studying this material as a spiritual pursuit, not a scientific discipline.

I also think it's worth mentioning that I do not "revere" Hubbard. As I said, my opinion is neither "pro" nor "anti" and my approach is no different to when studying the material of others. Whilst he and others before him have written texts considered harmful, on their own they do not harm. People harm. Extremist, fundamentalist groups harm. The difference between a zealous churchbot and little old me is attitude, intellect and influence. The "church" has a culture of extremism. It not only promotes it, it enforces it. Miscavige aside, this culture evolved from the application of specific policies demonstrating the founder's increasing fanaticism and absolutism. They continue to be applied (on an even more extreme level) under Miscavige and his clan, not because they make sense or are ultimately beneficial (which they clearly aren't) but simply because they are (examples of alteration aside) "written by Hubbard". There is no evaluation, no intelligence, no common sense applied to understand how some specific writings not only go against the core values of the philosophy but can and do result in division and abuse if applied. The culture enforced within the CoS, as we know, does not allow for this and I doubt it ever will in its current form.

If a complete and utter evaluation of Hubbard's works were measured against the basic Axioms, Logics, Prelogics and Creeds (the backbone of Scientology philosophy) one could easily determine which datum or policy is at odds and has the potential to harm if used.

At some point I would like the history books to describe how the abolishment of the CoS in the mid 2010s not only put an end to the abuses but also an end to the religious fanaticism that can be observed in many of its members. I believe that will occur once the church has gone. (Free of its influence I certainly no longer have it). A free and open marketplace will, imho, ensure it doesn't raise its head again.

sketto
sketto

I've tried to ask that question several ways. I'm starting to doubt that you care to answer it, but I'll try once more with a longer set up to that one question.

You claim that "some parts" of Scientology are helpful even though the ideas for them came from a vile man. I assume that this is primarily based on personal experience with the nicer elements of Scientology - auditing, "tech" and your generously-titled "philosophies of Hubbard". Maybe you're including the testimonies of others who enjoy Scientology when you say it helps, which is how most Scientologists defend Hubbard's ideas. Which is fine; it's just not evidence in any real sense and it doesn't clearly define or filter out the "bad" philosphy in any way. This kind of it-helps-me-and-that's-all-that-matters defense of Hubbard's ideas (uh, the "good" ones anyway) is far from a scientific demonstration that Scientology "helps". Wide acceptance of Hubbard's systems would require much more scientific rigor than Scientology or Hubbard has ever shown. Furthermore, because Hubbard's history is full of his claims of "research" that only he ever witnessed (and we can prove that he lied at least some of the time), testimonies claiming the good of Scientology will always be incomplete and suspect without real evidence.

And people like you and I who apparently are open to questions on this subject, would be wise to double-check and verify every single thing that Hubbard ever claimed (in books, audio, video, letters, or policy) on any subject because he lied so easily and so often on topics both large and inconsequential. His "research" and "science" is not accepted or proved to the scientific community or general public and it deserves all the doubt it has received. Humorously, during arguments Scientologists often quote from Hubbard as a way to prove their opinions about Scientology, which is as pointless as using your own opinions as evidence to support your other opinions. I'm sure you've seen this on Marty's blog. Quoting Hubbard is also neither evidence nor science since it is basing conclusions on the work of a man who may have been lying at the time. This is always a possibility with the man.

So, from my perspective, the "help" of Scientology appears to be a personal phenomena and one that equally ranks with any other appeal to emotion and personal experience. In short, the only defense of Hubbard's "tech" is that some people like it and feel it helps them. Thus, it is possible to get the claimed benefits of Scientology elsewhere and without all the ridiculousness of Xenu or the violence and un-freedom of the Sea Org.

And if that's the case, that you can get similar benefits regarding how to live a good life in other areas. And if it is proven, as it has been, that Hubbard-created policies have harmed many and continue to harm many. And if the distinction between the "good" tech of Hubbard and his "bad" tech/ideas/policies is without agreement even within those who admit to some doubt, then I say that we need to seriously call out the fact that it is possible that all of it is based on lies. (Note: this is the part where you start calling me "absolutist").

So, the question: Are you willing to truly dig into and expose Hubbard's false claims of science regarding his "tech" if the end result is to find that it is directly related to the abuses and that both are based on lies? Because they are directly connected. You seem to want auditing and Hubbard's good without admitting that it indirectly supports all of the bad. 

You cannot separate Hubbard from the abuse of Scientology, nor distinguish the good policies from bad since even the "good" ones could be based on lies. The inconsistency with which Indies and other Hubbard defenders define the tech proves the point that you cannot have just some of it without also perpetuating Hubbard and his worst ideas. You cannot revere the tech and auditing and their creator without indirectly supporting the Hubbard-created systems that are currently destroying people's lives.

Scientia
Scientia

Let me be blunt. If I didn't want to answer questions or engage in any dialogue with you, Sketto, I wouldn't bother responding to any of your posts. So thank you for clarifying; it is appreciated. Perhaps now we can move forward.

- My opinion of Scientology is that, for the most part, it is a useful method of self-improvement and spiritual enhancement. I believe there is wisdom in many parts of Hubbard's philosophical works (written and spoken) and value in the practice of his therapy.

- I reject any material (by any author) that encourages or condones absolutism, extremism, intolerance, division, hatred or abuse - including Hubbard's org policies on disconnection, "enemies", fair game and SP declares.

- On the subject of absolutism, you dismissed the notion that Hubbard walked the proverbial line between genius and insanity, instead labelling him a "schemer". I agree that he grossly exaggerated the benefits of his therapy (primarily for profit) yet I believe that notion is still valid. Hubbard demonstrated he had many different sides to his character and personally I don't believe defining him or anyone in absolute terms is overly helpful in understanding human behaviour. We have covered this before but let me reiterate that a simple study of our history shows that a number of creative thinkers often demonstrated the vilest of character traits. How do we define such people? More importantly, does having a label slapped on them negate any value in their work?

Q1. If you define "consistently defend" as simply offering up a more balanced view of the guy (as opposed to herd agreement of blanket labels) then put me in that box if you must. Are you open to the fact that one can hold a viewpoint that is neither "pro" nor "anti" but somewhere in between? Okay, good.

In answer to your question, I believe the abusive parts of any "system" are the people who abuse others. A policy letter doesn't hurt anyone. A religious fanatic might. Abusive people should be stopped, period. Abusive groups should be shut down. My "responsibility" in all of this is not that of a Scientologist but that of a concerned citizen who simply wishes to see justice done.

Q2. Huh? No idea what this means. Please clarify.

sketto
sketto

Despite your "openness" to Hubbard criticism and questioning, you don't seem to manifest that in our discussion. Your replies have consistently ignored my questions, claimed not to understand them or diverted into other topics. For evidence, see your last response which, despite its length, spent more time talking about me than L Ron Hubbard, which is the basis our conversation, isn't it? It certainly is the basis of my criticism, comments, and direct questions to you. Cynically, I would think that you do that on purpose. Optimistically, since you claim to have spent the last year "open" to this, I'll ignore that and I'll try again to address three of my points here:

First, you claim I do a whole lot o' assumin', so let's have you set me straight. Please state for me your opinion of Scientology. And also please state, regardless of that answer, if you reject Hubbard's policies of disconnection, fair game and declaring SP's., just to name three of the more obvious misanthropic policies which Hubbard promoted.

Second, the issue of genius vs. insanity is a minor point, but one that you clearly prefer to the harder question of whether Hubbard was a pure fraud. Because a man who is a transparent fraud deserves the title of fraud, not "flawed genius" as so many Hubbard disciples like to use. My bad for calling a scientific study a book, but again, not the point. Your implication, by raising the "fine line between genius and insanity", was that Hubbard is in either category, or both. If you missed my point in response to that implication, I'll say it directly - he deserves neither title. He was no genius; he was not insane. Both titles are a soft excuse in order to allow him to dodge responsibility for his intentional harm to others. He was much more obvious than all that. He was a schemer. That's it.

Thirdly, you asked for clarification of a question that you yourself paraphrased accurately, so, ok, I will restate my question two different way in the hopes that you will see it more clearly:

One: What responsibility, if any, do you feel you have in stopping the abusive parts of a system, created by a man you consistently defend and whose system you either directly or indirectly support?

Two: If the promotion of Hubbard's tech is shown to be directly connected to many damaged lives both in the Sea Org and out, is not the fight to bring freedom and health to those victims more important than preserving the cherry-picked parts of that tech that you personally like?

I've likely tried to cover too much in this post, but I believe I'll have less chance to do that again if you could directly respond to these questions about L Ron Hubbard without lengthy musings about what my motivations are.

Scientia
Scientia

Wow! That's a whole lot of assumin', Sketto. Kinda proves my point about them black and white pigeon-holes of yours. (I'm glad I fit so snugly in the one you've labelled "a true Scientologist")

Look, I wholeheartedly agree with your questioning approach to study. Why wouldn't I? (Am I really that much of a dribbling dimwit in your eyes?! Actually, nevermind...) That you assume I do not is clearly prejudice; not much I can do with that really. The simple fact I have been regularly reading and posting on this blog over the last year should suggest, even on the most basic of levels, that I am open to criticism of both Hubbard and his "tech". If I wasn't, I wouldn't be here. Maybe you missed that glaringly obvious point, who knows.

Regarding your questions, I'm sorry to say you lost me at the suggestion I compare or weigh up my use of Scientology against the abuses within the "church". Forgive my ignorance but I have no idea what that even means. Are you suggesting I should feel guilt in some capacity? What do you actually want to know?

Oh and those aren't book recommendations, they're scientific studies on the links between highly creative thinking ("genius") and schizophrenia ("insanity"). I thought it might be of interest, since you asked for sources. שלום

sketto
sketto

Well you certainly are a true Scientologist. You refuse to answer question you dislike or that ask you to question your assumptions.

As for your reading suggestions, I'll take you up on it. I enjoy this topic (not Scientology -but religion, faith, and the pursuit of human truths) and welcome anything new on the subject.

However, I have to disappoint you and point out that listing impressive-sounding titles and lengthy bibliographies instead of arguing logically is actually the opposite of impressive. It looks more like a dodge to some important direct questions and shows an unwillingness on your own part to engage in ideas on your own terms. This is a variation of the pattern of many Scientologists who flee to Hubbard for quotes and feel that they've made some kind of point. When serious questions about truth arise, which you certainly could answer for yourself, quoting another man's ideas actually damages the logic of your argument if you choose to quote from known frauds. (I'm sorry you dislike the term fraud, but your flinching from the truth of Hubbard's past transgressions against people, families, critics and governments is your issue, not mine).

As for your silliness about reading only saints, I assure you that there is no such thing. All writers are human, including Hubbard. And all are open to the same critical reading and doubt, whether reading Shakespeare, Jung, Einstein, or even Robert Frost. I do not swallow anything they've written without using my own judgment. The fact that they said something is not enough to make it true.

But doubt regarding Hubbard is something that Scientologists don't like and don't allow. This is the definition of narrow thinking and it's unhealthy. I reject that way of thinking. There is not a single topic that I will not allow doubt and questioning to be a part of because there is always more to know. But for Scientologists on the topic of Hubbard, it's a requirement. Hell, you just recommended some books that you apparently think are awesome. I'm not afraid to read them. But you know damn well that learning about criticism of Hubbard is not encouraged in the world of Scientology. this practice is exactly the opposite of true scientific thinking, where even the strongest theories are perpetually open to analysis, rejection, or improvement.

I would argue that people who quote Hubbard every chance they get have given up this kind of critical thinking for themselves and will not allow true criticism into their world. This is not a healthy thing. Especially when the man you have chosen to let think for you was truly not a nice man at all.

Scientia
Scientia

But you aren't exploring the subject, Sketto. We have had this discussion already and it went nowhere. Your fixation on Hubbard along with a seemingly persistent thirst to pigeon-hole him into comfortable little boxes of "liar" and "fraud" will prevent any real and indepth understanding of Scientology philosophy and why people (indies) choose to study it.

Maybe some people feel safe only reading the works of saints. I don't know any saints, personally, but I am certainly happy to read the works of the sinner (or those labelled as such by absolutists). There is wisdom to be found even in the strangest or darkest of places, imho. So long as I'm not hurting anyone, why should anyone give a toss.

In answer to your question regarding genius and insanity, I believe the saying stems from Aristotle ("No excellent soul is exempt from a mixture of madness.").

You may also be interested in neurological research undertaken along these lines. See bbc DOT in/d5PmP8; Manzano O., Cervenka S., Karabanov A., Farde L., Ullen F. Thinking outside a less intact box: Thalamic dopamine D2 receptor densities are negatively related to psychometric creativity in healthy individuals (2010) PLoS ONE, 5 (5), art. no. e10670; and also Meyer-Lindenberg, Straub et al., Genetic evidence implicating DARPP-32 in human frontostriatal structure, function, and cognition, J Clin Invest. 2007 March 1; 117(3): 672–682.

sketto
sketto

Well for a subject that has much to offer, let's explore it, shall we?

Tell me who exactly says that there is a fine line between genius and insanity? Who?And if a man lies frequently, isn't the proper identification of that to call it "lying" and not "genius"?If a man lies frequently on many subjects at times when there really is no need to, what does that say about his other possible non-lying ideas? If a man has the opportunity to have others follow him and chooses that opportunity to lie, does that make him a genius or merely a dishonest person?

Furthermore, if a man develops a system that hurts many people and damages many families does that not outweigh the fact that some other people like it? Or said another way, is your enjoyment of Hubbard's tech worth the damage that his other policies create?

Lastly, given the choice to learn and study from great thinkers throughout history, why would a person choose to follow a frequently dishonest man like Hubbard whose "discoveries" were often unproven, unscientific, and at times, proven frauds merely dressed up with the name "tech"?

Let's explore this. Let's really get into these serious, serious questions about Hubbard's worth.

Jgg
Jgg

 Exactly.  JLo and others keep saying "the tech is really good."  Well, it is (at least for some people), but the credit should go to Freud, Jung and other scientists who L. Ron Hubbard stole it from.  Also, hypnotists are now licensed in California (and perhaps other states) and will di it for $80 / hr., far less that Scientology will charge.

sketto
sketto

Yes, but Freud and Jung foolishly didn't call their ideas "tech". That was their big mistake. It sounds so much more super important and smarty-pantsy when you give standard, well-known ideas fancy names. That was Hubbard's specialty.

Kim O'Brien
Kim O'Brien

i think the same thing when it comes to the "indies". When Tony made Hubbard the #1 person destroying scientology ...they went ape shit on Marty's blog. It was the strangest thing to see ...Rinder typed something and it was like some sort of mental cue or something ...swoop ...like a scene from The Birds . I was able to make one of my very last postings that week i think ,,,before i was cut off . Ya know ...all that "freedom" over there to express yourself . Heavy sigh . I fear that instead of escaping the asylum like they thought ...they just moved to a different wing of the nuthouse . If you have not heard the radio interview that Marty did here in Denver a few weeks ago ...you have to google it and listen to him . whakadoodle doo 

Schockenawd
Schockenawd

Remember how, at some point, the IRS started referring to taxpayers as its "customers"?  Like that was supposed to make us all feel warm and fuzzy about doing business with the government.  The label is about as ridiculous as Scientologists calling their members "parishioners."  Yes, we live in the advertising age, when it's all about packaging and PR.  But how gullible do we look, anyway?  Both entities should surrender the facade and just start calling people "payers" or "pockets."  As between the IRS and Scientology, I can't decide which of them I'd rather have audit me less.

TheHoleDoesNotExist
TheHoleDoesNotExist

I look at it as something similar to when the IRS came out with a full blown PR campaign about how they had gotten rid of all the bad apples, had turned over a newer, gentler, kinder leaf,  and "the IRS is Here To Help You".

Funny and sad in the same breath and depth.

Kim O'Brien
Kim O'Brien

yup - that is the one . It was awesome when the interviewer was openly laughing his ass off when Marty got called out by the caller. It was hysterical ...funny THAT interview never ended up on his blog huh ? 

sketto
sketto

Is that the interview where Marty kept denying believing in anything regarding thetans and the interviewer kept calling him a liar? If so, that was tremendous. I loved it. and it exposed him as what he is - chronically semi-truthful.

And this is why I still say that there is latent danger with Marty and the Indies - because they're still not 100% honest. Apparently, they'd like to end Hubbard policies like the RPF, but it's not at all clear to me that they're ready to give up declaring SP's or being honest about Hubbard's other disastrous policies. They're only articulate when it comes to hating Miscavige. But ask them to be honest about Hubbard and they suddenly get philosophical about shades of grey and how we shouldn't judge too harshly.

I say this - people who regard as "scripture" the harmful writings of a proven fraud are people who deserve serious suspicion and need to be watched.

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