Why Do Scientologists Accept the Xenu Story?

Categories: Scientology

SPXenu.jpg
South Park's rendition of Xenu
For going on 17 years I've been writing about Scientology, and over that time there's one question that has come up again and again.

Why don't Scientologists, when they've been in the organization long enough to reach the legendary material in "Operating Thetan Level Three" -- the stuff about Xenu the galactic overlord which made for a great 2005 episode of South Park -- bust out laughing and walk away?

Tom Cruise and John Travolta and thousands of other Scientologists have moved on beyond the space opera stuff in OT 3 (Cruise, for example, has moved up to OT 7), and for some reason, they accepted the Xenu story and never looked back.

When I've been asked that question, I had a ready answer that I'd put together after talking to many ex-Scientologists who told me their own experiences.

But now, I realize that the answer I was giving was wrong. The reason why Scientologists accept the story about Xenu and disembodied alien beings infesting this Earth is actually much simpler, and much more mindblowing, than I ever realized.

In the past, Scientologists had convinced me that their long, gradual indoctrination was so insidious, by the time they were allowed to read L. Ron Hubbard's strange OT 3 story -- which has a galactic overlord solving an overpopulation problem by bringing billions of disembodied alien souls to this planet 75 million years ago -- their critical reasoning skills were so eroded, they would accept anything.

I remember Jason Beghe, for example, telling me that other religions have their angels and demons, so was a story about alien spirits from another solar system really all that harder to believe? I could see what he was saying, but after spending so much money and time -- hundreds of thousands of dollars and several years of dedication to reach OT 3 -- wasn't it a shock for Scientologists to learn that this was what their religion is really all about?

Some ex-church members I met did admit that they had negative reactions to the Xenu story, but by the time they learned it they had already spent so much of their lives invested in Scientology, they really had no personal will to walk away -- at least at that point.

But then, recently, I had a new realization about what church members go through before they get to OT 3.

A few weeks ago, I interviewed a man named Dani Lemberger, and he made me understand the "whole track" and auditing better than anyone else had before. (In auditing -- Scientology's spiritual counseling -- a subject holds onto the sensors of an e-meter while an auditor asks questions prescribed by Hubbard, encouraging the subject to remember events earlier and earlier. The purpose is to remember and then disarm traumatic memories that happened in your past lives, and helps you move toward becoming "clear." As you do so, you gain a view down your entire "whole track" of existence as an immortal spirit, called a "thetan.")

For my story about Dani and the mission in Israel that is splitting away from the official church, I interviewed Lemberger for hours and sat, mesmerized, as he told me about his whole track auditing, during which he saw himself millions of years ago, leading groups during different lifetimes and on other planets. Over the eons, he said, he had lived lifetimes during which he had a tendency to get his head chopped off when his people rebelled.

Dani was serious. (And he's also a successful businessman with an MBA who characterizes himself as a "skeptic.")

Lemberger made me realize something very basic about Scientology that, for some reason, had never really sunk in before. And it is this...

The reason Scientologists accept Hubbard's bizarre story about Xenu is that by the time they reach OT 3, they have been "remembering" their own outlandish space opera "whole track" stories during auditing, perhaps for several years.

Why question Hubbard's tale about mass alien genocide 75 million years ago, when you've been "seeing" yourself as some kind of Buck Rogers fighting enemies and bedding beauties from one end of the galaxy to the other?

With this new realization, I went back to some of my ex-Scientology sources to put it to them: had they been holding out on me a little about their own Star Wars-like adventures?

Several of them admitted that yes, even ex-Scientologists long out of the church can be somewhat reluctant to discuss the wild things they "remembered" about their past during auditing. But I pressed them -- tell me about your adventures from millennia past.

"I blew up a water dam that destroyed a third of the cities that were downriver of it. That would be about 300 million years ago -- but you would say something like '346,767,813 years ago' to your auditor. I think it was on some planet that started with the letter 'V'," says Chuck Beatty, and he laughs, knowing how ridiculous it sounds.

Even after I had explained what I was asking, it took me some while to pry that answer out of Chuck, who is, just about anyone will tell you, the most forthcoming and talkative source of information on Scientology in the world.

Tiziano Lugli was the same way. He spoke to me at length about his own auditing and the entire progression of the OT levels. But I had to keep pushing him until he finally coughed up one of his whole track events...

"It was 250,000 years ago, in a space ship, and I'd gathered all these people from these planets, and I'm implanting them with mental pictures and then throwing them down to the earth, a prison planet," Lugli said. "I was the guy in charge, and I'm responsible for this prison planet. The feeling of that responsibility and what I went through freaked me out for a year."

And that's really the purpose of "remembering" such material -- Scientologists believe that if they can recall and "handle" things that happened to them eons ago, it will solve whatever problems they have going on in their current lives.

"At the end of a session you feel invincible," Lugli says. "You've been having planets built and destroyed. After that, you come out into this normal world and you feel like the most powerful person around because you've been traveling through space and time."

Marc Headley pointed out that if you're having those kinds of experiences, Hubbard's story about a galactic overlord is just not very surprising.

"OK, so there's a galactic overlord named Xenu. Big deal. That's not the craziest thing you're going to hear on your way to spending three hundred thousand dollars," he says, referring to the ballpark figure for what it takes to get through the years of services to get to OT 3. At the upper levels, such counseling reaches about a thousand dollars an hour.

But during their journey to OT 3, not everyone has such outlandish "memories," they all pointed out to me.

Amy Scobee, for example, told me a pretty mundane story about seeing herself in a scene from about two centuries ago (which, even though it was rather tame, she asked me not to share). Other memories she worked with were almost contemporary.

She just didn't have wild space opera experiences the way some others did. So when she she reached OT 3, I asked her, how did it hit her?

"I did wonder if it was true," she says. But when she then ran the auditing routines involved in the level, the e-meter's needle seemed to indicate that what the material proposed -- that disembodied alien souls were hovering around her -- seemed to be confirmed. "It's weird. I don't know what to say. I didn't feel like I went through that incident, but the needle was going wild, so I had to assume that someone had."

I also called Jefferson Hawkins, who I've always considered one of the smartest, most level-headed of the ex-Scientologists who speak out about their experiences. He laughed as soon as I explained why I was calling.

"I ran a lot of that stuff, as anybody does, and people don't want to talk about it because it's kind of silly when you get out. But when you're in it's very real," he says.

And Jeff's "whole track" auditing memory? "I was a navigator on a space ship, and it had this very complex navigation system that I was in charge of and I could describe it in great detail," he says. "It was just very vivid. I could see the equipment and could describe it."

He points out that Hubbard had suggested these kinds of stories in his books and lectures, talking about waves of "invader forces" that had colonized the solar system.

"As a kid I was a real science fiction fan. And the idea that this stuff had actually occurred millions of years ago -- it was crazy, but in a good way," he says.

So these Scientologists, in their auditing sessions, were "remembering" pretty mindblowing stuff. But there was a catch -- they weren't supposed to tell other church members about it.

Lugli describes the scene to me: "You would go to the restaurant at the Sandcastle Hotel in Flag [Scientology's spiritual mecca in Clearwater, Florida], and everyone is out of session, saying things like, 'Wow, this really blew me away! I've never handled more charge in one session!' But you can't actually say what happened," he says.

However, people would violate the rules and spill secrets about their past lives, they tell me. Some folks just couldn't help themselves.

"It was a status thing," Hawkins explains. "I knew probably four or five Scientologists who told me confidentially that they were Jesus."

And in the 1980s, he remembers, "there was this fad for a while that people were all remembering that they were Nazis in World War II, and that's why things were so screwed up in their present lives," Hawkins says. "That's why they had to be so active in Scientology, to atone for what they had done in past lives."

I also pointed out to Jeff that there seemed to be another status thing going on -- the better Scientologist you were, the farther back in your whole track you could go, retrieve incidents, and handle them. Hubbard himself seemed to promote this idea, that if his followers could travel back hundreds of millions of years, he was so advanced he was going back trillions of years. (Astronomers tell us the universe itself is only about 14 billion years old, but that didn't stop Hubbard.)

Hubbard claimed that he'd visited Heaven 43 trillion years ago and then a trillion years later. And, as we pointed out (and Beatty gave us credit for being the first ever to do so), when Hubbard died, Pat Broeker showed a number with 347 digits on it to the audience when it was announced that Hubbard had merely left his body in order to continue his research on another plane.

HubbardNumber.jpg
The number that Pat Broeker showed at Hubbard's death announcement.

That number, Broeker told the audience, represented in years the farthest back in his whole track that Hubbard had been able to go at the end of his life.

We did the math, and here's what that number represented...

24 billion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion years.

That's some time travel!

So you see, 75 million years ago is not really such a big deal, and Xenu and his alien overpopulation problem isn't going to scare off your average spacefaring Scientologist.

Someday, I'd love to hear Tom Cruise's whole track tales. They must be something.


UPDATE: I'm at a gathering of ex-Scientologists this morning, and when I saw Roger Weller, he said, "I wish you would have asked me about my whole track stories." Well, Roger, I can always add it to this post!

I've written about Weller before -- he filled me in on what Scientology was like back in the heady days of the late '60s in Greenwich Village. He's right now wearing a T-shirt with a photograph of himself with Mick Jagger, who he had given a Hubbard book. The T-shirt's slogan: "Me & Mick: Smoking Dianetics, L.A. 1972"

I asked Roger about his past-life auditing.

"I had this one incident where I had so much grief," he says. Even though the auditing session happened in 1968, he still remembers it vividly. "I was on this planet, and there was this beautiful woman on a beach, a blonde."

There were knowing chuckles around the table. Roger smiled, but he said this was actually a sad memory for him.

"I was working in government, I was flying in space ships. I was at this planet, and I knew that it was going to get knocked out. I couldn't warn anybody about this, because I was working for this group," he says. "It was going to happen in a month or something, so I was able to leave, and the memory I was left with was this blonde on the beach that I was betraying."

I asked him when he thought it had occurred. He said it was some millions of years ago, but he couldn't be more exact. "When you couldn't pinpoint the time of the memory, you would point. I remember pointing at a direction in the room," he says.

"It was so real to me. But it was disjointed. That's how auditing is, it's in fragments. I might have cried for an hour."

I thanked Roger for that glimpse of his auditing. Now, if I can get some other people at this gathering to cough up their own stories. If so, I'll add them here...


Just talked to Dan Garvin, a 25-year veteran of Scientology (10 in OSA) who left the church in 1991. Here was the whole track experience he shared with me...

"It was trillions of years ago, before the universe we know it was in its present form. Somebody had made a planet -- I didn't like it or I was jealous, or they beat me to it and I was going to make one of my own. So I just blew that other one up. I had come up with some kind of technology, a super nuclear bomb," he says. He added that he didn't actually set off the bomb, but left it at the planet he wanted to get rid of so that someone else coming along would trip it.

Dan tells me that it was very unusual to be asked about this. I told him that I was surprised that it took me this long to question people about their whole track experiences. For some reason, it's not something that comes up often, even among ex-Scientologists.


Claire Swazey gives us a glimpse from the other side: It was 1976, she was only 19, and she would later go on staff at the Albany mission. She was helping another Scientologist do self-analysis (a light form auditing), when he went whole track on her.

Claire says that she never really went space opera in her own auditing, but when she was auditing the young man, he started talking about space ships.

"He was on a space ship, looking down at the planet below, and there was all this carnage, people killing each other with ray-guns," she says.

I asked her what went through her mind at the time. "I remember that I had to keep my auditor's hat on and not show any surprise, and I encouraged him to say whatever he wanted to say. A 'holy shit' might have crossed my mind," she says.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Inside Edition Debunks the E-Meter

"It has nothing to do with spirituality. It has to do with sweat, salt, and grip." -- electrical engineer Steve Fowler.

Priceless.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

More from Narconon in Oklahoma from Fox's Marisa Mendelson

Another great report by Mendelson, following up on yesterday's news about the death of Narconon patient Stacy Murphy: a parent frantically tries to get her own daughter out of the facility.

In this story, like so many others, a concerned parent put her child into a Narconon center with no idea that it was connected to Scientology. When are state officials going to realize that playing down that connection is part of Narconon's shady ways?



See also:
Scientology's president and the death of his son: our complete coverage
What Katie is saving Suri from: Scientology interrogation of kids
Scientology's new defections: Hubbard's granddaughter and Miscavige's dad
Scientology's disgrace: our open letter to Tom Cruise
Scientology crumbling: An entire mission defects as a group
Scientology leader David Miscavige's vanished wife: Where's Shelly?

Please check out our Facebook author page for updates and schedules.



**********
Tony Ortega has been the editor in chief of the Village Voice since March, 2007. He started writing about Scientology in 1995. You can reach him by e-mail at tortega@villagevoice.com, and if you ask nicely he'll put you on his mailing list for notifications of new stories. You can also catch his alerts at Twitter (@VoiceTonyO), at his Facebook author page, on Pinterest, a Tumblr, and even this new Google Plus doohickey.

New readers might want to check out our primer, "What is Scientology?" Another good overview is our series from last summer, "Top 25 People Crippling Scientology." At the top of every story, you'll see the "Scientology" category which, if you click on it, will bring up all of our most recent stories.

As for hot subjects we've covered here, you may have heard about Debbie Cook, the former church official who rebelled and was sued by Scientology. You might have also heard about the Super Power Building, Scientology's "Mecca," whose secrets were revealed here. We also reported how Scientology spied on its own most precious object, Tom Cruise. (We wrote Tom an open letter that he has yet to respond to.) Have you seen a Scientology ad on TV lately? We debunked some of the claims in that 2-minute commercial you might have seen while watching Glee or American Idol.

Other stories have looked at Scientology's policy of "disconnection" that is tearing families apart. You may also have heard something about the Sea Org experiences of the Paris sisters, Valeska and Melissa, and their friend Ramana Dienes-Browning. We've also featured Paulette Cooper, who wrote about Scientology back in the day, and Janet Reitman, Hugh Urban, and the team at the Tampa Bay Times, who write about it today. And there's plenty more coming.




Sponsor Content

My Voice Nation Help
576 comments
Marlique
Marlique

Some time ago I got a 100% satisfactory anwer to my question: “If mental image pictures of past lives are not true, but they are pictures which people ARE seeing, WHATARE THEY SEEING??” In two words I could give you the answer right here, but some background information is needed to understand them.If you google A Trip Into The Supernatural Part 1 and listen to all 6 parts (it's a video), you'll not only get the answer to the question but probably be OMGing for quite a while due to all the cognitions (insights) you get.

I didn't do much OMGing myself, as I never got that kind of mental images (at the time I thought something was wrong with me, that my mind was 'blocked' or something. Now I know better!). 


my2cents
my2cents

It offends me when a person (such as the writer of this article) who was not in the cult tells me why I was.  Or why I believed this or that.  Or assumes that I really did believe something or not.

 

Or that It is so simple "that your critical reasoning was eroded”

 

Also I think this writer is too simplistic in thinking that everyone who was ever involved in Scientology was in it for the same reason or believed the same things.

 

I do not have a big enough ego to tell others what they believed but here is what I thought of when I did the OT levels.

 

By the time I got to OT3 and was told about the Xenu story I had done a lot of auditing.  Now I still think that auditing was beneficial.  It may not work for the reasons Hubbard said and not nearly to the extent that he said but I think it can help in this way.

 

When you receive auditing there are several beneficial things going on.

1)     Someone is really listening to you and not evaluating you.  It feels really nice to be able to say anything.

 

2)     You eventually assign your problem to something that has happened in your past (either real or imagined) you then go over that enough times until it stops bothering you and I really think it helped me in the long run. 

 

To me it is a form of creative visualization or hypnotism.   Could you be contacting real past lives or other beings or entities?  No one really knows.  But the idea that you mentally confront something and in your mind make it go away can empower you in some way and make you feel better either in the long term or short.  I think there is some benefit to the processes but no one can really study the outcome because there is no truthful calculation of any results.

 

Now to the OT levels

 

By the time I got to OT 3 remember I had spent a lot of money and a lot of time learning how to audit myself.  So here I am being presented with the Xenu story.  The funny thing is that I did not really think about it logically. “Was the Xenu story really true or not”.  

 

I had gotten some good results on the pre OT levels the grades and dianetics (not what was promised but I was pretty happy and doing well in my business and in life).

 

So I was more interested in getting the results of OT3 and not about the story.  I had wanted to be more able, more productive and successful.

 

Xenu story aside, you have to remember that the idea that people can be possessed by spirits is in many cultures and religions from Shamans to Christians.

 

In OT 3 "you think" you are essentially getting rid of other spirits that are near you.  The idea that they got attached to me per the Xenu story was not so important to me.  I just wanted to see if I felt better from the auditing or not.

 

I do understand that many people in Scientology do believe that they were intergalactic warriors and did believe the Xenu story.  But please do not generalize for all of us.

 

Personally I did the OT levels as a sort of word association. Find the area of the body that made the meter read, then run the incident and see if the meter stopped reading, see if I felt better.  Often I did feel better.  But I never stopped and thought “What about that Xenu?” and we never talked about it with each other.

 

Again think how you might feel if you spent 3 hours a day visualizing success or doing some self hypnosis on ”Freeing yourself” from human constraints.  The mind is powerful. 

 

To me that is why some people get results on these levels.  If you spend 3 hours a day telling yourself you are an immortal spiritual being capable of anything, that could be quite empowering. 

 

On these levels you are doing that in a way.  Which in my opinion is why people may get some results.  The same thing goes for the football player who thinks that “God is on his side”.

 

Here is something that you should know if you were never a scientologist.  When doing these levels I audited myself 5 hours a day for about 7 months every day (3 months to a year was common).  So about 4 months into this I read the Xenu story.  Up until then I was doing well and happy with my subjective results.

 

 Now I could have complained at that point and said “Wait a minute what is this ridiculous story”  but then I would have had to write up my disagreement and send my folders somewhere and talk to someone and waste time.  They would have wanted to do extra auditing on me to find out what I did wrong to be having these disagreements and that would have cost me even more money.  In the end it was either do the level or quit. 

 

By that time I had spent so much money and time and truthfully I was pretty happy and was doing well in my life and work so I just didn’t want to waste time.   I just wanted to see what I would feel like on the other end.  Also, I just wanted to be finished.

 

So I can understand how the outside observer could focus on the Xenu story but I for one was focusing on the outcome of the auditing not so much the story.

 

To me auditing is like praying to the Baby Jesus (an equally ridiculous story in my opinion).  Imagine you pray to the Baby Jesus for a new bicycle and then next Christmas you get one! 

 

The prayer may not be what got you the bicycle, but you prayed and you believed and your belief made you happier and you didn’t complain as much and your parents thought “What a nice boy” and they bought you the bike. 

 

Then you grow up and have a family and you read the ridiculous story of the Baby Jesus to your kids and you think “What a bunch of craappoollla” But the prayer worked for you so you continue. 

 

Your believing and your family believing makes things work better, there are rules to follow some good, some bad but these beliefs and rules make everyone believe that they are playing on the same team.

 

The prayer may have done nothing, it was your belief in the prayer and following some common sense rules that made you act differently and get better results in life.

AussieCase
AussieCase

I wonder if I would have just let myself imagine my so-called "past lives" while in $cn. I reckon I was on the edge of doing so at times. If I did that enough, I may have even believed it more and more.

 

As an auditor I heard people discuss past lives, most did what they were suppose to and manifested the appropriate VGI's, (when someone looks happy and appears to have some sort of win, we write VGI (very good indicators on the auditor notes) at the right time.

 

Did I believe them? Certainly at times, I did not, just like any story--some are just hard believe, but perhaps at times I did believe, after all I believed I would one day be able to recall my so-called past lives.

 

There is this placebo effect. Psychiatrist, David Burns says this happens in 35% (or so) of depression cases. You can perform some half baked therapy (we did that) and 35% of people will improve. The skeptic dictionary notes research indicating at times even higher rates of observed placebo effect. Burns also noted there have been documented physical side effects occurring from placebos--inert medications. So our minds can play games.

 

In $cn, most of the people who don't believe drop away quickly, and most who are in for a while know the drill, they find something to be happy about or they will be asked to discuss and earlier _____.

I think that at times people discuss really upsetting things, and actually sort through them in some way, perhaps just talking about upsetting things is beneficial (there is some evidence that keeping a journal can be beneficial), and perhaps $cn public and staff generally know that at some point they are suppose to have a "win" and be happy (VGIs) so they do. Looking back, I knew I was suppose to manifest a win and VGI's and I did.

 

Write a bloody success story, or you will wind up in ethics again doing some sort of "PTS" handling, or worse. This is where you are a potential trouble source (PTS), and you have to do some crap (handling) to deal with it. If you are a $cn public, it generally costs money and time.

 

I will add an amusing thing about self delusion, I  saw George Baillie talking to anonymous on youtube. He is quite amusing, this dude really believes what he is saying. He appears to have erased all doubts, all questions, and he just knows. He then does the famous $cn laugh, to use $cn lingo, I would call this the service facsimile laugh.

5lttlestones
5lttlestones

Xenu needs to be put out to pasture, that would be space pasture. However, NOT ON MY PLANET! 

XSyFyGuy
XSyFyGuy

I had recalled two past life experiences and I thought they were real at the time. Turned out that one was a recall of a twilight zone episode I had seen as a child and later forgot and the other was based on B rated science fiction movie that I had seen and forgotten. I discovered these facts some twenty or so years after I quit and made me laugh/cry that I had wasted all that money and believed all that garbage.

AussieCase
AussieCase

I was involved in $cn for a few years in the late 1980s and early 1990s. I was young, and perhaps in vulnerable place.

 

I joined staff at a small organization, and I was sent to Florida to train as an auditor. I left staff shortly after I returned and I basically was on the outskirts for a few years before I dropped away. I did not experience this so called "whole track." In fact, this was considered a problem that I had. I did try to remember past lives but I could not. I couldn't even imagine past lives that were similar to Monty Python skits.

 

I had auditors ask was there an earlier (insert random incident) and then indicate "that, that, that" in response to what they saw on the e-meter. However, other than random thoughts and odd memories from childhood I could not recall anything, It is odd that while I myself couldn't experience this "whole track," I listened to others discuss, at times famous, past life experiences. Also I was not the only one who did not have "whole track recall." At the time, I reckoned, I must be so screwed up because this works for "everyone" but not me. I found somewhere where L. Ron wrote that Australians do not get case gain. Not getting case gain is $cn speak for the "tech" not working on someone.

 

Cheers!

Scilonschools
Scilonschools

Certainly makes the previously difficult to believe you tube interview of STEVE FISMAN (fishman affidavit), more believable!!!

bobbeeheehee
bobbeeheehee

"It was a status thing", Hawkins explains. "I knew four or five Scientologists who told me confidentially they were Jesus"

-Tory Magoo tells a long ago story of meeting two different Scientologists the same day who both proudly  told her in confidence they'd been Julius Caesar in a prior life! Scientology seems to sometimes encourage or provoke delusions or fantasies of  grandeur.

-This reminds me, one time Scientology dabbler Charles Manson, prior to becoming a cult leader, had a life-changing LSD trip where he became Jesus, & felt himself being crucified. Then Charlie noted his surname "Manson" could be seen as a variation on "Son of Man", a description the Bible ascribes to Jesus. Charlie's transformative I'm-Jesus-(&-you're-not!)  trip apparently helped him to start viewing himself as extra-special, & worthy of attracting devoted followers to his violent & bizarre philosophy/cult, with Charlie as both prophet & guru.

Delusions of grandeur can be dangerous things!

XSyFyGuy
XSyFyGuy

I never got as far as the Xenu story in SyFytology. Pretty much knew I was getting ripped off from day one but took me months to admit it to myself and finally quit. It was really hard for me to quit because I had to admit to myself how stupid I had been and what I had wasted financially and emotionally. This coupled with the intense social pressures put you make it damn hard to quit.

Dave2001
Dave2001

May I ask a few questions of the ex-Scientologists here:

 

- If spaceships were flying around Earth long ago and if the solar system has been invaded again and again by various forces, how does the CoS explain why is there no visible alien presence anywhere in the solar system today or since LRH started teaching?  

 

-  Does Scientology have any teaching that would reconcile the known age of the universe (13.8 billion years) with the LRH timeline?  Does it attempt to theorize things like multiverses or perhaps a universe that continuously expands and contracts?  Or does it simply assert that the universe is trillions of years old?

 

- I saw the UK program Panorama in which several Scientologist celebs were interviewed on this subject.  Leah Remini was one.  When asked about Xenu, they all looked at the journalist like he was crazy and denied knowing anything about it.  Their denials seemed genuine, although they are actors.  Were they lying?  Even if they haven't reached OT3, it is inconceivable that they have never heard about this.

EinsteinontheBeach
EinsteinontheBeach

I give up.

 

I can't tell what is going on here.  I used to love this place.

 

 

afk05
afk05

Hi everyone.  I have never posted here before, and I am a newbie.  I stumbled upon this article online, and have been reading a lot of the comments.  My question is (in no insulting or condescending way intended whatsoever), many of you with personal knowledge of scientology speak of getting involved because of the need to fix something in your life, and the lies of the church of scientology that becoming a member of the church can fix it, or that you are helping others.  Why aren't you able to fix things in your life yourself, or help others without belonging to any church or religious organization?  I have read that many successful people have become members and later left the church, but I still honestly cannot understand WHY.  I can't seem to wrap my head around it.  Can someone please explain this to me clearly?  Thank you.

Pattanumodana
Pattanumodana

How ridiculous this is!  Let me get back to my wine that turns to blood, virgins that give birth, dead carpenters that come back to life, and my holy book that teaches me how to sell my daughter (but not my son) into slavery. 

XSyFyGuy
XSyFyGuy

Another reason for accepting the Xenu story is that by the time a scientologist has reached that level they have already spent a huge wad of money to get there. For most, it is incredibly painful to consider that maybe you were a fool all this time and you wasted all this money. Stack on top of that all your friends and family believing the same thing and the position it will put you in if you don't believe the story - if you can imagine yourself in that position, you will begin to understand why most scientologists would willingly buy into it.

rxse7en
rxse7en

Do all of the stories that are created for members tie in to each other? Do they all happen in the same universe with characters, plots, and places that are inter-related or are individual stories independent of each other? That would be like writing thousands, millions of different sic-fi stories for each cult member! I wonder how many members are Luke Skywalker? I wonder what stories/themes aren't allowed... 

jensting
jensting

John Duignan explained at the Dublin Offlines that the mental breakdown he had early in his $cientology career left him a different person. Starting at 15:30-ish in the video on http://exscientologistsireland.org/conference-videos/ . Maybe it's easier to believe stories that appear unbelievable to outsiders after the entire personality has been broken down and rebuilt into something more suitable for clam indoctrination.

robinlandseadel
robinlandseadel

There's an E-meter I can get my hands on, a Mark VI. I think I'll start out with power resistors, see how close Hubbard's subjective scale tracks for low-power, then high value resistors. In other words, what kind of Ohm-meter are we dealing with here? Is "Rise" 4 Ω? Is the ninth bar of "Fall" 100kΩ? Maybe after all of that I'll get's me some canned asparagus and play me some Screamin' Jay Hawkins records so's I can know what to expect.

 

But remember this: "By Itself, this meter does nothing." That's right—what you really need is a multimeter. Cheaper, more flexible, many more ways to deploy in your evil quest to take over the world. Or maybe get that bandsaw in the garage to stop killing people. Whatever. The something that the meter really needs is a "Psychic", a Cold Reader, someone who's really good at picking up the querent's low-level ticks. I'll bet the stuff the C.I.A. uses for their "Knowledge Reports" is light-years ahead of Hubbard's New-Age kludge of a lie detector. But as the Firesign Theater always said—"There's a Seeker born every minute."

 

ramrodjohnny
ramrodjohnny

When I was a child, I was told "when you grow up johnny-boy, you can be what ever you want to be. You can be a Painter, a Fire-Man, Doctor, etc.etc" . Not one time, NOT ONE FUCKING TIME was I told that I could be the pilot of a whizz-bang super-duper SPACESHIP !! Blowing up planets and leading million of minions across "gul-ax-ees" to some dump planet called Teeg-e-ack!!!

Now why is that ??

I will tell you why. I was brought up by Intelligent Anglo-Sax-Christians that new better and the 'diff' between Old School Religious beliefs (hyperbole and storied examples) and fucking fairy-tails !!!

 

You see this story from the great and wonderful TONY, is just more proof that those that fell into Scientology and those that are IN because they want to be (indies or churchies) that bought into the OT III GARBAGE,  or are just ramping up to the OT levels, have a little kink in their brain-stem to begin with. This kind of of fairy tale does NOT have a place in the BRAINS of normal (thats right, I said NORMAL) humans, like the 99.9% of us here on Teegeack. If you even consider you may have lived "Trillions" of years ago you need REAL HELP...I'm sorry Karen de La "alexaders Mom" but you are a nutter too, in fact, ANYONE buying in to any of HUBBARD'S garbage needs to get some real help because living in THAT KIND of fantasy land is extremely dangerous!!!     just check out the STATS!!!!

Philoskano
Philoskano

@my2cents It seems that people in general really have different priorities at different times. The question "Is it more important that it is true or that it is helpful?" is certainly a controversial philosophical question.

KimLoss
KimLoss

 @my2cents Thank you for taking the time to post. I get a little offended by being told why I was in too. -

 

I never did the OT Levels but I believe that OT III is "accepted" by a lot of people because of the processing itself and not the theory. I rejected the theory instantly when I read it, but that was as a lowly "Clear" so I'm sure it's assumed reading it messed me up. What it did in actuality was wake me up.  It was the final straw for me. I told my husband that night that I was quitting staff and quitting Scientology altogether. A day or so later he wanted a divorce. 

 

I can appreciate that money was a factor in your choice not to raise your questions. You might have avoided a sec check since you were a student, but who knows? You might be right about what would have happened. Certainly I found that the number of confessionals I received were in direct proportion to the number of doubts expressed. 

5lttlestones
5lttlestones

 @XSyFyGuy that is a sad but a hilarious story to ponder. Yet dont beat yourself up about the money. you were psychologically enslaved and there is always a price to be paid for freedom. you have no idea how much money i have wasted! most of it on expensive schooling that has never been put to good use in my adult life. total waste of cash!  i suppose the auditor had no idea you were recalling a Twilight Zone episode? 

torymagoo44
torymagoo44

 @bobbeeheehee True! I met them in Denny's on the same day, in 1970. Yes, true---back then Scientology DID encourage delusions and fantasies via "Wins" People had. Now they have to go through "Qual" To see if they're "OK". (Super watered down). Also, re Xenu, Tony, I'll tell ya my story, incase you forgot it: I have Epilepsy. Everyone kept telling me: "YOU in particular are going to *love* OT 3" So I was really hyped up to find out what it was.

 

Ok, so back in 1979---they just handed you the pack and you went in a tiny room at Flag to read it. I sat down, read how Hubbard nearly died doing the research, but got through it. (Right there that rang a bell for me, as I was studying Eastern Religions when I had my first Grand Mal Seizure. So maybe I got up into some different stratosphere? LOL. See? Delusion 101.  I turned the page to read: "75 MILLION Years ago there was this EVIL warlord: XENU".

 

I sat there and thought of ALL the people who had told me how *I* particularly would LOVE OT 3. Shocked, I sat and thought: "You HAVE to be kidding me!" (First thought---true fax). BUT!!! (Isn't there always a "But" in Scientology?) So then I thought: "Well, Doctors (even Neurologists) do not know what causes Epilepsy----so MAYBE this is it?" With that, I began OT 3...thinking I was "Running out Epilepsy".

 

I had what I thought were HUGE gains. I completed OT 3, and then figured NOW I can finally get off of my medication, as I've gotten rid of the source of the seizures. When I soon after went into "Status-Epileptus" (Multiple Seizures) Thankfully, I called a friend I *knew* was on the fence re Scientology---and I knew HE would take me to Morton Plant Hospital, vs where they took Lisa McPherson, 45 minutes away. The Doctors told me: "You nearly died". That was the last time I tried to get off of my medication, although I ended up fighting Scientology for another 20 years about medication. ARGH! And that's *my*     OT 3 story :) To anyone lurking, with a physical condition: PLEASE take the medication you need, and find a NON-Scientology Doctor. (Dr Denk was mine, and I swear he saved my life, making sure I got my medication despite the Scio Bozo's at Flag trying to by-pass him! But things are way different now, and sadly Dr Denk passed on, too). Love to all ...Tory/Magoo

JohnPCapitalist
JohnPCapitalist

 @bobbeeheehee I think most psychologists who have studied lucid dreams like past life memories would note that people always seem to have been somebody famous in a previous life because having a recognizable name allows you to construct the details needed for the name to become vivid very quickly.  It would be hard to imagine the world of ancient Rome without first thinking of one of the people in it who you studied in school. 

 

I also suspect that people often imagine themselves reincarnated as someone famous because the series of dreams where they experience reincarnation as someone famous and powerful are a way for the subconscious to work out  problems that they feel powerless to work out as themselves. 

 

The craziness comes not from having these dreams but from having them in Scientology, where the Hubbard statement "what's true for you is true for you" gets people thinking that this stuff really happened.  It would be really funny for all the people who are convinced they are the reincarnation of Julius Caesar in Scientology to get together and hash it out to determine who _really_ was and who were the impostors. 

 

I am sure many other capitalists have had a series of dreams that they were the reincarnation of legendary financier J. P. Morgan, as I did at one point.  But that was all about my subconscious working out whether I was able to grow in my ability to do my job, not about whether I actually was the reincarnation of J. P. Morgan.  I notice that my bonus that year at Global Capitalism HQ was up sharply, not because management thought I really was the reincarnation of a legendary investor but because the firm's overall results grew in proportion to the bonus I got. 

XL7Z
XL7Z

@Dave2001  

Not an Ex-Scientologist, but have looked through much of the leaked material. As far as I can tell--

- They actually do claim that there are various "invader forces" operating in the solar system, but Earth itself is basically anathema to most spacefarers because of Xenu's handiwork.

- In one lecture Hubbard expressly declared all of modern astrophysics to be erroneous, IIRC he singled out its of understanding stellar life cycles as wrong and also denied that stars move though space. In light of that I imagine that they simply reject the modern cosmological timescale outright.

- I'm pretty sure that they were simply lying--I didn't find them very convincing myself,  one of them mugged at Sweeney in a way that I found pretty obviously put-on.

AussieCase
AussieCase

 @Dave2001 I can't answer everything, but I can say I did not hear of Xenu when practising $cn. I was ultimately told about it by a non-$cn. I was a lower level $cn when I was involved, and I met very few OTs. I was not friends with any.

At the lower levels, I do recall a considerable dependency over plitdown man, which he writes about as fact. I do not know how I let this go, but I can say it rested in the back of my mind.

It a appears as people get in, then they slowly shut off the outside world and buy into the $cn doctrine. Doctrine over personal experiences is one of the criteria of thought reform that Robert Lifton discusses.

In my experience, I formed a new social group of $cn, and I slowly bought into, at least in a general sense, what everyone else thought. My social group was of starting out $cn, very, most of which who were auditor trainees hoping to audit each other "up the bridge."

Looking back, I cannot answer how exactly this all happened, how I remained involved in the face of evidence to the contrary. I can say it did happen.

Cheers!

michelekalis
michelekalis

 @afk05 I can try to explain it.  It sounds like such an easy way to fix things, an easy way to learn how to fix things and make it all better.  Everyone wants to improve, but rarely do you find the immediate chance to fix EVERYTHING and Scientology offered that.  It was hours in a room, going through memories, emotions, and personal "truth" that seemed more productive than years at a therapist or psychiatrist.  It was an IMMEDIATE feeling of release, and often it was emotional.  It made me believe things that weren't true, such as soaring into space, but then I really felt it was true.  I don't dispute past lives, it's not for me to say it's true without proof somehow, now that I'm done with it.  But at the time, it feels like immediate release, letting go right now instead of for years talking to a therapist about really heavy issues of truth.  I can't explain what it felt like, but it felt like I was working on me.  Then I realized that the e-meter is a piece of trash, L.Ron told his buddies the best way to make money was to create a religion, and after reading it, I realized I did buy a piece of blue sky.

ClamOnAHalfshell
ClamOnAHalfshell

 @Pattanumodana Ohai, OSAbot! So nice of you to join us and immediately try to change the subject. That's not suspicious at all. :)

YouBelieveWhat.
YouBelieveWhat.

 @Pattanumodana  Talk about ridiculous!  Tell me what other "religion" forces their members to 'disconnect" shun, and cut off all contact from family members who do not follow the faith?  I've been a member of a religion for 65 years. I'm not a Super Member, have no desire to arm twist and lure others into my faith, disagree with several beliefs of my faith, feel free to state these disagreements to the clergy of my faith, have not invested hundreds of thousands of dollars to learn my faith,  would not separate myself from family members who change faith, or who don't practice my faith or any other faith.  Would NEVER defend anything criminal or immoral that members of my faith have done. I'm not afraid of anyone in the hierarchy of my faith and if threatened by any one of them, would call the police and report the threat.

Instead of attacking other religions, why don't you defend the practices of your "religion"?

 

 

 

HiHello
HiHello

 @Pattanumodana  

I'm a Christian. My holy book is the Bible. I follow Christ. He said the two greatest commandments were to love God and love your fellow man.  He taught forgiveness.  He told a parable about a father who's son betrayed him. The son ran away with his inheritance and squandered it then hit the skids.  When the son came straggling back home to beg forgiveness, the father ran to him, forgave him unconditionally and loved him like crazy.

 

It is the exact opposite of  SEC-checking and routing in, routing out., RPF and all that jazz.

 

One is a spiritual solution based in love and faith.  The other is strategy, somewhat based in paranoia.

FistOfXenu
FistOfXenu

 @Pattanumodana I wonder if you've missed the point? We aren't debating the comparative merits or demerits of different beliefs. We're looking at the psychological mechanisms that can lead people to adopt beliefs they would otherwise find unacceptable, and we're looking at those mechanisms in the specific context of $cientoology. You write like someone who thinks he's landed at the pope's official website. Google is your friend.

KimLoss
KimLoss

 @rxse7en Hubbard only scripted the OT levels. The incidents discussed in his books/tapes weren't run at lower levels, if at all, at least from 89-99 when I was a member. Most of what is run at lower levels is whatever the pc comes up with as an answer to the question and on an earlier/similar chain that could be anything.

 

fileclerk
fileclerk

The "nominal" resistance values are 5K for females and 12.5K for males.  The e-meter is actually pretty good at what its built for, namely being sensitive to small changes in resistance around an adjustable baseline.  It obviously has no precision since it doesn't give resistance values, but for what it does its better than a multimeter.

 

YouBelieveWhat.
YouBelieveWhat.

 @ramrodjohnny Thank you for saying this.  There is something off about anyone who could actually believe 1 of these fabulist lies. 

KimLoss
KimLoss

 @ramrodjohnny That's bullshit. You need to do some reading on cults in general and educate yourself. The people who wind up being preyed upon by cults like Scientology don't generally have a mental defect that allows it - they're ordinary people who are generally in crisis when approached and in need of a way to gain control of their own lives. ANYONE can become a victim of a cult if the timing is right. Anyone, including you.

KimLoss
KimLoss

 @JohnPCapitalist  @bobbeeheehee The famous name thing really wasn't that common. It was one in a very few people who would latch onto the notion that they were some great figure or other. In retrospect I think it was some deep sense of insecurity that spurred it. In other words, in this life, they felt unimportant and inconsequential. I can only remember one Jesus who didn't fit that description.

 

afk05
afk05

 @michelekalis Thank you michelekalis.  That was very helpful.  I wonder, for the scam artist that he was, how Hubbard was able to figure out how to affect people emotionally so quickly and deeply.  From your account, he seems to have been more successful than modern day psychology at helping people feel relief from the burden of their problems or issues.  It is quite fascinating.

flusterclucked
flusterclucked

 @HiHello   Do you speak in " tongues"?  Been "blessed by the Holy Spirit"  Or  areyou not that kind of "Christian"?

rxse7en
rxse7en

 @kimloss4 Thank you, KimLoss4. Glad to see that you are no longer a member.

 

It's unfortunate that the CoS is what it is. I can almost see the good in it if weren't for the undertone of evil and underlying drive for profit/prophet. Makes me wonder what a splinter coup could do if they just formed something off of Dianetics, openly claimed they were a for-profit group and did away with the evil hierarchy of the CoS. When you think about it, there has to be a group of people that the CoS has actually helped/bettered and within in the organization, there has to be "good" people who are aware of the evils and try to make good where they can.

 

Thank God for the internet, and the ability to at least make people aware of what they may be getting themselves into before they join the CoS. The internet must be the biggest thorn in the side of the current day "church" and they probably see nowhere near as many recruits as they did prior to the readily available information on the Web. 

 

As a former member, don't answer if I'm prying too much, do you still believe in Scientology? What do you think is the endgame for the CoS--meaning, do you see a big change in the operation being it's savior (a change in the leadership, more transparency with the public) or do you see it disbanded, losing it's status as a religion and former members being helped back into society?

 

 

FistOfXenu
FistOfXenu

 @YouBelieveWhat.  @ramrodjohnny Sorry but I can't think of a nice way to say this. Your comments are ignorant. You really need to learn something about how the human mind works and how human beings interact with each other and how it can be corrupted. Until you know what you're talking about you need to talk less about it. 

 

Read up about Stanley Milgram's experiments and what's been done with them since. Read about the prison experiments. And then keep reading.

 

And count yourself lucky you've never been in the place where you had to find out what people like $cientoology could do to you. 

FistOfXenu
FistOfXenu

 @afk05  @michelekalis When you say "for the scam artist that he was, how Hubbard was able to figure out how to affect people emotionally so quickly and deeply" you answer your own question. Affecting people emotionally quickly and deeply is one of the things that makes a successful scam artist. It seems that it's a skill picked up early in life for a lot of scam artists.  They learn to deal with their parents by manipulating them (like most kids do but even more so), they learn to deal with the kids in school by manipulating them, they learn to deal with teachers and then bosses the same way. While other kids are learning to work at things and act cooperatively with others and take orders when necessary, future scammers are learning how to get people to reward them without making them do the work first, how to control people instead of cooperating, and how to ignore orders and then smooth over the consequences or else just escape them. And WHENEVER the truth doesn't do what they want or doesn't give them what they want or even doesn't if it just doesn't feed their inflated self-image, they LIE. And then they lie some more and lie some more.

 

Look at Hubbard's early life (the real one not the BS he told about himself - see something like Piece of Blue Sky by John Atack or pretty much any other study of his real history). It's all there. 

HiHello
HiHello

 @flusterclucked   I don't speak in tongues.  I'd say I'm led by the Holy Spirit when I'm prayerful or at least mindful of God. There are a bunch of folks who call themselves Christians, and one point of my faith is that I'm happy to let God sort that out. 

 

As you know, LRH would not approve.

 

Thanks for the questions. Keep them coming.

rxse7en
rxse7en

 @KimLoss All great suggestions. Libraries are a great place to start when you think about it. Anyone who looks into Scientology on the web nowadays should immediately be aware of the dangers with so much information readily available.

 

Thinking about it more, there really needs to be an advocacy group to look into the welfare of the children of scientologists--the children who are born into it without any choice in the matter.

KimLoss
KimLoss

 @rxse7en I love that question! Here's what I have for suggestions.

 

Being educated and educating others out the cult and its front groups, goes a long way IMO. Talk to friends, have a conversation with local youth group leaders or ministers about cult awareness, visit your local libraries and make sure that the librarians know who Hubbard was and that his books - the ones donated to their library, no doubt - are used as a recruitment tool for a destructive cult. Visit your local bookstores and educate them on what exactly they're helping promote by selling Hubbard's books. Talk, educate and inform - there is no more powerful deterrent than the truth.

 

You can also take part in a number of online communities that are working to expose the abuses of the church: ESMB, Operation Clambake, Why We Protest are three that come instantly to mind. Activities can range from internet activism to attending a raid and anything in between.

 

Thanks for your questions, rx!  And thanks for giving a shit in the first place. The more people who care what happens, the faster the tower crumbles.

 

rxse7en
rxse7en

 @KimLoss Kim, thank you again for the enlightenment. I'm a lapsed Catholic with a morbid interest in LRH and Scientology since I read Battlefield Earth back in '82 when I was 12. I've just always found it fascinating that such a broken man could "jokingly" start a religion with so many followers today and bring so much pain to the world in the name of greed. I wish all of you former and current members the best of luck in your future endeavors and truly hope that you guys can be free of the pain and find true happiness.

 

Is there anything that an average joe can do to help bring about the end of Scientology?

KimLoss
KimLoss

 @rxse7en Yes! There ARE other places for an ex to turn besides Marty!! Off the top of my head, Chuck Beatty has worked for years to help ex-SO in particular to find their bearings in the world when they exit the church. He volunteers his time on AllExperts and has a website up : http://www.freewebs.com/chuckbeatty77/contact.htm  his contact information is at both sites.

 

Tory Christman also works to help facilitate exits as needed and has a network of  anons and exes who will travel within their areas to give someone a ride, a safe place to crash, safe transport to a loved one, etc. Her contact info is on her blog at http://www.torychristman.com/contact/

 

Jefferson Hawkins can be contacted through email, through his excellently written blog Leaving Scientology at http://leavingscientology.wordpress.com/contact/

 

ESMB is full of exes and anons who will go to the nth degree to help provide information and assistance to anyone who asks for help. http://www.forum.exscn.net/forum.php

 

There is help out here for anyone who needs it. All anyone needs to do is reach for it, one or a dozen caring people will be there.

 

 

 

 

 

rxse7en
rxse7en

 @KimLoss Thank you again. You've given me insight that I hand't really picked up before when reading the sites. Makes me realize that people like Rathbun are not the innocent victims they make themselves out to be. 

 

Disbanding and redistributing the cult's war chest to the victims is a great idea. After reading yesterday's news about the Headly Case, the world will now know that people are being abused by the cult and something will need to be done. I hope you're right in that the cult's days are numbered.

 

Rathbun is the only individual I ever hear about that offers ex-members a place to run to when leaving the cult. Is there something/someplace that's not associated with Scientology where people trying to get out can go to? The "church" should have to pay for something like that.

KimLoss
KimLoss

 @rxse7en There are lots of good people in Scientology. I've often said some of the best-hearted people I know I met there, and that's one of the biggest ironies as well as one of the saddest aspects of the church, because those good people continue to do bad things to each other and to their perceived enemies in order to adhere to policy.

 

I am firmly in the ex camp when it comes to Scientology. I don't believe it can be reformed because the basis for its reformation would be Hubbard policy, and Hubbard policy is the reason Scientology is what it is today. A new leader might breathe life into the enthusiasm of current members, but in all honesty I think the church is dying, and I'm more than ok with that. And yes, the internet is a huge part of that death. 

 

As for "the tech" as Scn call it, I think some of the lower actions can have benefit, but I believe there are better, faster and much cheaper forms of therapy today that can take you to the same places, so to speak. 

 

As for what I would want: I'd like to see it disbanded, criminal charges brought against those in a position of power and known abusers. I'd like to see the properties sold off and the $ placed into a trust fund to be disbursed to those people who would suddenly find themselves turned out into the streets - money that would help them get a real world education, medical care, a place to live, and a fresh start. If people want to use Scn on their own as is the situation with the Indies, I say let them have at it. But I think it behooves all the people who care about what happens to the cult to keep an eye on the activities of any groups that form. We've all seen what can happen if people decide to follow policy. 

AndImCuteToo
AndImCuteToo

 @YouBelieveWhat.  @kimloss4  @EinsteinontheBeach  @FistOfXenu  @ramrodjohnny "I would never fall prey to the loons in this cult."  As my mom would say, "Famous last words." ;)

 

Seriously, though.  Those of us who've never been 'in' need to be careful, I think, of making assumptions (like 'weak-minded') about those who have.  They may very well have their share of accountability, but labeling them is not likely to help them with that.  Neither of us has been in the position of a Scientologist, or ex-Scientologist.  I think we should both look on them with some compassion.

YouBelieveWhat.
YouBelieveWhat.

 @kimloss4  @YouBelieveWhat.  @EinsteinontheBeach  @FistOfXenu  @ramrodjohnny WOW! So far, I've been called ignorant, a cunt, a prick, a sociopath, a fun hater because I prob don't let my kids go trick or treating & a bible thumper. WTF?

All because I suggest that perhaps there might be some mental weakness in being susceptible to this lunatic cult?  Geesh! I rest my case.

Nice to see that the attack, attack & attack mumbo jumbo is strong as ever.

For the record, I am not a troll, I am not a OSI OR OAS OR whatever silly gibberish you all think you suspect.

Nor do I say with any sense of superiority whatsoever that I would never fall prey to the loons in this cult. 

 

KimLoss
KimLoss

 @YouBelieveWhat.  @EinsteinontheBeach  @FistOfXenu  @ramrodjohnny There's a world of difference between what Exes think. And there is a world of difference between Exes and Indies. I really don't know why you're here, YouBelieveWhat. You don't know anything about Scientology, you don't know anything about cults, you don't know anything about exes and you're not an Indie. So you're either OSA or a complete idiot (not that the two are mutually exclusive) and regardless of which it is, you're a troll. 

Ceridwen
Ceridwen

 @YouBelieveWhat. "...And that the promise of money and power was NOT not the reason he joined the gang. He was tricked by a sinister gang leader."

 

You do realize that this is often exactly what happens to many impoverished, inner city at-risk youths? That they are usually brought into the gang by older gang member relatives, siblings, cousins, even parents?

They are assured that the gang is their family, and other members will always protect and care for them, in ways that no one else would. These young people have been conditioned and exposed to poverty and violence their entire lives, initially by their surrounding living environments, and that is reaffirmed and further escalated by the gang's violent practices and belief system.

Once in a gang, the member is expected to stay for life, or face the threat of death upon leaving.

Gangs *are* cults, violent cults to the extreme, with more deadly weapons and far stronger drugs than the thuggee cults of old, but certainly just as deadly for all whom are indoctrinated.

 

This does not excuse or condone criminal behaviors by gang members, but it does give one insight how a person can be initially corrupted, and why the both individual and collective crimes can escalate to such highly violent extremes.

horatius
horatius

 @YouBelieveWhat. Ok. Imagine this scenario. Your wife and kids die in a house fire. You see someone running out of your burning house, but you don't run after him because you are trying to save your family. You fail. The police then determines that you started the fire. You fight a 20 year long battle to prove your innocence. You get out of jail after 20 years and have no life, no family, no prospect. You are telling me, you are such a superman that you won't be in the perfect frame of mind to join a cult?

horatius
horatius

You are a cunt, and you are not too bright. You have too high an opinion of yourself. Just fuck off already. We don't need your patronizing bullshit.  @YouBelieveWhat. 

YouBelieveWhat.
YouBelieveWhat.

 @EinsteinontheBeach  @FistOfXenu  @kimloss4  @ramrodjohnny neither. You don't find it odd that these ex members focus almost entirely on the Current Sociopath/Lunatic in charge of the cult as all that is wrong with the cult?  No personal responsibility for their part in this? 

Will the next Sociopath/Lunatic be better at selling the scam? Will he be a kinder, gentler Sociopath/Lunatic?  I would guess that some of these ex members participated in the mistreatment and abuse of others during their time in the cult?  I think "they" made me do it is a pretty lame rationalization & justification for their responsibility.  The "I was only following orders" excuse doesn't fly.

YouBelieveWhat.
YouBelieveWhat.

 @FistOfXenu  @kimloss4  @EinsteinontheBeach  @ramrodjohnny Not a bible thumper by any stretch.  Def not an OSA=(creepy paranoid arm of the cult).

I read these posts and I try to understand how and why the "independent" scientologists have their knickers in a bunch because the current Sociopath/Lunatic heading their cult is ruining  the beautiful scam the Original Sociopath/Lunatic/Founder of the cult created.

I see posts and articles about a woman, grown adult woman, lamenting the fact that she was not allowed to go to her only son's memorial service and realize that SHE IS THE ONE WHO HAPPILY & WILLINGLY TURNED HER CHILD OVER TO THESE MONSTERS!  Oh, and she is incensed by this treatment from the Current Sociopath/Lunatic, but man does she STILL revere the Original Sociopath/Lunatic/Founder. This was her child.  The person who he should have been able to trust more than anyone, his mother, did this to him.  And now he's dead. I do feel sympathy for her loss, but will not ever understand how she could do this to her only child. I think there is some status seeking and some narcissism and a huge dose of over sized, giant ego's involved in this fraud, and not just by the leaders of the fraud.

People who join this cult are not "victims" of the cult. They willingly and knowingly joined.  If I am mugged or raped, I'm a victim. I did not willingly participate in my mugging or rape.  I didn't join a "Gosh it would be cool to be mugged" club, then get pissed off when I get mugged. 

I do have genuine empathy for ex and current members of this cult.  Just not for the same reasons you do.

 

 

FistOfXenu
FistOfXenu

 @EinsteinontheBeach  @kimloss4  @YouBelieveWhat.  @ramrodjohnny You could be right that he's not OSA, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's a $cieno who's just here because he thinks he can strike an effective blow against an enemy. He'd be unhatted so he could think that hiding who he is means trying to sound like us. 

 

But I don't think bible-thumper fits either. No proselytizing, nothing that says "if you'd been christians you wouldn't have joined". It was all about "I'm too smart to be deceived and you all must be too dumb to see the con". 

 

But you know what? It doesn't matter, does it? Because now we'll go back to talking about Tony's story. :)

FistOfXenu
FistOfXenu

 @kimloss4  @YouBelieveWhat.  @EinsteinontheBeach  @ramrodjohnny Don't feel bad, we've all done it and we'll do it again. And it's better to give somebody the benefit of the doubt at first than it is to write them off from the very start. At least you gave him a chance. He can't go away and claim nobody tried to help him understand. He doesn't want to listen, he doesn't want to read, he thinks he's got this all taped without having to learn anything.

 

You did the right thing when you tried so hard to help him, and then you did the right thing when you recognized that he didn't want help, he wanted to spout off. Looks really good to me. ;)

FistOfXenu
FistOfXenu

 @kimloss4  @YouBelieveWhat.  @EinsteinontheBeach  @ramrodjohnny This is why I bowed out of this ages ago. I kept checking this conversation to see if he was dealing with anything that anybody said to him. Answer: no. So I decided he just came here to spout off at us and keep us from talking about the story. I don't really care if he's another OSA-troll or just thinks his ignorance is god's gift to the anti-$cientoology movement. 

 

If I wanted to talk to an inanimate object I'd talk to an ash-tray. So I didn't bother. Sorry to leave you guys with the dirty work.

EinsteinontheBeach
EinsteinontheBeach

 @kimloss4  @YouBelieveWhat.  @FistOfXenu  @ramrodjohnny 

 

Don't feel bad, I know a lot of people like that.  He/She probably doesn't let their kids dress up on Halloween because it's spawn of the devil. 

 

Nice pick up on the derailment subject, usually I'm the first to mention that, so good job.

KimLoss
KimLoss

 @YouBelieveWhat.  @EinsteinontheBeach  @FistOfXenu  @ramrodjohnny I've reached the point in this conversation where I really don't care what you think. You haven't contributed one iota to the conversation but have done a pretty decent job of derailing the subject, especially considering you haven't got a clue what you're talking about.  I tried to dialogue with you because I thought you legitimately didn't know what was what, but you know what? Nobody is this thick. 

 

 

 

 

 

EinsteinontheBeach
EinsteinontheBeach

 @YouBelieveWhat.  @kimloss4  @FistOfXenu  @ramrodjohnny 

 

I have never been in the cult. But I have sympathy for its victims, and I certainly have compassion for people who suffer what appears to me to be wasted years, and in many cases destroyed marriages and families. 

 

I like to be kind and learn their story.  If that takes learning a new vocab, I'm OK with that. People need to tell their story sometimes, and if its a healing process, that's fine with me.  They can't go back to the cult, by the way, once they've left.  So they are not trying to legitimize it.

YouBelieveWhat.
YouBelieveWhat.

 @EinsteinontheBeach  @kimloss4  @FistOfXenu  @ramrodjohnny I think to  continue to speak in the  cult gibberish legitimizes the cult.  Those who want to boast of being Level blah blah auditor of OT Level blah blah, sound foolish. 

Congrats and a tip of the hat to you. You were one of the Grand Poobah's of NOTHING You attained a high level and the envious status in a HOAX! Bravo.  Have a cookie!

EinsteinontheBeach
EinsteinontheBeach

 @YouBelieveWhat.  @kimloss4  @FistOfXenu  @ramrodjohnny 

 

That's really clever. Congrats.  But it's kind of like a teenager bitching about "why do we have to call it X and Y when those are numbers, just use the numbers, that's stupid."

 

If really want to understand the cult, you need to learn some vocab.  This is good for everybody, but especially journalists, LEA, and government who will be needed to shut the cults doors.  It will certainly be necessary for the Judges that will hear the upcoming trials.

 

The goal is to uncover, inform, and educate people aboout the human rights abuses of the cult.  The goal is not to be imprecise, or to use immature black-and-white reasoning.

 

 

YouBelieveWhat.
YouBelieveWhat.

 @EinsteinontheBeach  @YouBelieveWhat.  @kimloss4  @FistOfXenu  @ramrodjohnny another issue I have and mentioned it on another thread.

Instead of using the cult gibberish, which means absolutely nothing, why not use plain English to describe what these silly terms actually mean, ie, tech=crazy shit, PC, damn near duped & deluded; Clear=duped & deluded, OT I thru infinity=really crazy shit, Auditor=The loon who kept asking me weird ass questions,

SP=someone who points and laughs at scientology, Base=Home Office of the Loons, Wog=sane person who never believed any of this shit, etc.

By continuing to use the ridiculous terminology and lingo of this silly cult, you sort of validate them. These words mean nothing in real life.  Just like the "religion". It means nothing.  It's based on nothing but science fiction/comic books/wackadoodle psycho babble.

 

EinsteinontheBeach
EinsteinontheBeach

 @YouBelieveWhat.  @FistOfXenu  @ramrodjohnny 

 

They are trained to find your "ruin," i.e., what are your insecurities and vulnerabilities. 

 

Once they determine your unique insecurities, then it's revealed that they have reliable technology that can fix exactly that, which never fails.  It's a guarantee, your life will in fact get better.

 

Hard for the unaware person to say no to that.

KimLoss
KimLoss

 @YouBelieveWhat. With my whole heart, by the time I got to them. I disagree with Mr. Erlich. My mental programming started the second I dialed the 1-800 number on the back of the DMSMH book. It was thrown into overdrive the second I walked in the door. By the time I got to Objectives I believed a whole hell of a lot that I didn't believe walking in the door. 

 

That's what's meant by "the long con". It's a slow, insidious, relentless process. 

YouBelieveWhat.
YouBelieveWhat.

 @kimloss4 The mental reprogramming begins with the basic courses and early one-on-one sessions," Erlich says. "These sessions train the individual to expect to have his communication, attention, and body completely controlled by the practitioner (auditor) without objecting."

 

And you thought that was a good way to help others?

YouBelieveWhat.
YouBelieveWhat.

 @EinsteinontheBeach  @FistOfXenu  @ramrodjohnny I wasn't the one who first threw out the "ignorant" label.  Actually, I think mentally weak is a better description than ignorant. As for your statement that people go into it because they have problems they want to fix...

Uh, and the whole bizarre beliefs of scientology convinces them that adhering to this tripe will fix what?  Belief in the sociopath rantings of a con man and fraud is going to fix your marriage?  Feeling insecure?  Hey listen to this gibberish and babble, chock full of made up words, its good for what ails you.

KimLoss
KimLoss

 @EinsteinontheBeach  @YouBelieveWhat.  @FistOfXenu  @ramrodjohnny You are, however, taught to exercise control over others. Conversely, you're taught that resisting control is a bad thing. People are introduced to that idea on Objectives materials, for example, in the idea that the pc's "bank" is running the session if the auditor doesn't get him to execute the command. Upper Indoc TRs when you actually fight with your partner as a coach to make sure they can drag you kicking and screaming to the wall if they have to, just to keep the pc's "bank" from taking over the session. For staff, have you ever READ some of the references registrars have to study? Serious control there.

 

EinsteinontheBeach
EinsteinontheBeach

 @YouBelieveWhat.  @FistOfXenu  @ramrodjohnny 

 

What is ignorant is to assert that everyone on this planet is invulnerable to an insidious organization which claims to have "all the answers" and the "cure" to whatever is wrong in your life.  That's how they hook you.  Many intelligent people have been hooked.  Many of them post here.  Talk to them.

KimLoss
KimLoss

 @YouBelieveWhat. Well, speaking as one of those innately mentally defective people who bought into said con, I would agree. Everyone who leaves the church leaves because they reach a point where they can no longer find ways to excuse the actions they are experiencing or have born witness to. I left the second I realised that it really was all about money. I was able to avoid that conclusion for a lot of years, though, by focusing my time and energy on trying to help other people.

 

YouBelieveWhat.
YouBelieveWhat.

 @kimloss4 Yeah, take the wacky beliefs out of scientology and you have a con.  A scam charged with making shitloads of money for the leaders.  Same as the gang.

Some gangs sell drugs, others sell a phony religion. 

YouBelieveWhat.
YouBelieveWhat.

 @kimloss4 Let me say this, I am just an unimportant, regular person in this world.  My job as I see it is to have raised my kids to be good, solid, members of society.  I have no desire to "save the planet" on the scale that scientologists buy into.  My "saving the planet" does not have to be big and splashy. I am under no delusions that I have the key to the universe and the answers to everything that could ever be asked. Most of the people I know are just regular salt of the earth folks. No illusions of grandeur, no desire to force their way of thinking on anyone else.  Absolutely no desire to convince myself or others that I was Cleopatra, Eve, Abe Lincoln, a space ship pilot who saved the planet in a previous life.  No desire whatsoever or no need to believe that what I believe is the one true way.  The millions of people in the world who just take care of their little part of the world, ie their families, their communities, etc are do more to "save the planet" if I can borrow that fabulist line, than any adherent to this fraudulent cult could ever do in a zillion lifetimes.

KimLoss
KimLoss

 @YouBelieveWhat. What's your argument? Your previous post seemed to indicate that you'd call BS on any gang member making that claim. My response is that I'd want to know more to make an adjudication. Cults are identifiable by certain traits and characteristics, wacky beliefs aren't the point. I'd want to know the ins and outs of said gang member's group experience to decide cult or not.

 

Maybe that's what you're not seeing. The wacky beliefs really aren't part of what makes a cult a cult. All religions have what could be termed wacky beliefs. It's the level of control exercised over their members that makes a cult.

 

Seriously, read Dr. Singer. If you can't stand the idea of a whole book, visit some of the excellent websites online that cover the subject. A google search for cult characteristics should set you on the right trail.

 

YouBelieveWhat.
YouBelieveWhat.

 @kimloss4 and the gang member is not psychologically manipulated?  "It's us against them".

The social structure of the gang would not be very similar to the social structure of the cult?  The top dogs, the flunkies striving to do as much as they can to propogate the gang?  The promise to become a higher level in the gang?  Their silly language and code words that only others in the gang understand? Which while probably make the gang members feel very important and superior, are really silly and stupid sounding. Strange beliefs and practices? Do what we say or you'll be beaten up or killed? Never cross the gang, never "defend", shoot, shoot, shoot.

What's the diff?

KimLoss
KimLoss

 @YouBelieveWhat. And unlike you, who would dismiss it out of hand because you know everything there is to know already, I'd want to know what the social structure of that gang was, what strange beliefs and practices they might employ to enforce acceptance and adherence to their codes of conduct, and a glimpse of their loaded language.

 

I understand the desire to sum it all up as a fault inherent in the people who wind up joining cults. I feel strongly that it's a mistake to make that leap, and there are many studies that dissect and explain exactly how and why people wind up in cults. You're doing the subject a disservice if you don't explore those studies.

 

And for the record, I was not brainwashed. I was, however, psychologically manipulated on a gradient scale.  

 

YouBelieveWhat.
YouBelieveWhat.

 @kimloss4  @FistOfXenu  @ramrodjohnny Oh, I do understand how cults work. And for that reason I expect that one of these days a member of a street gang will explain away his ridiculous and criminal behavior by stating that the gang was a cult and he was brainwashed.  And that the promise of money and power was NOT not the reason he joined the gang. He was tricked by a sinister gang leader. 

KimLoss
KimLoss

 @YouBelieveWhat.  @FistOfXenu  @ramrodjohnny Oh ffs, I am trying to get you to SEE that this Xenu shit is NOT a cornerstone belief, it is NOT agreed to from the onset and it is NOT accepted or even presented to a person until they've been properly indoctrinated. I was highly trained, I was fairly highly processed, and I was staff for nearly a decade and it was NOT part of my belief.

 

YouBelieveWhat.
YouBelieveWhat.

 @kimloss4  @FistOfXenu  @ramrodjohnny See, this is what really baffles me.  The "ex" scientologists and the "independent" scientologists all want to cram their "credentials" down everyone's throat as if to prove "see how high up I was".

Um, from where I'm sitting, that's nothing to boast about. I can imagine that someone who bought into this fraud, hook, line & sinker would be quite embarrassed about it once they get out and want to shout from the hilltop "LOTS OF REALLY SMART PEOPLE GOT SUCKED INTO THIS". Sorry, I don't buy it.  There is a personality quirk or something that I don't understand.  It's not as if people go into this without the promise of power over others, superiority to others, money, a pseudo intellectualism they will attain.  There's just something off about this.

 

KimLoss
KimLoss

 @YouBelieveWhat.  @FistOfXenu  @ramrodjohnny I was staff for 9 years, in Scn for 10, completed 6 internships at Flag and attested to Clear. I never ONCE heard the Xenu story. Not once. So before you go assuming you know it all, you might want to take Fist's advice and do a little research.

 

YouBelieveWhat.
YouBelieveWhat.

 @FistOfXenu  @ramrodjohnny I beg to differ. 

You would be within your rights to call me "ignorant" if I had at any time ever believed any of the silly gibberish and fabulist B.S. that the cult of scientology slings about. That sir, is ignorance.

tim06
tim06

 @KimLoss Having been actively recruited by the Celebrity Centre to direct performing arts programs while not a Scientologist, I got an interesting look at the recruitment process. Much is predicated on human's inability to say "no." As I sat in the Director's Office, two lower levels tried to get me to come and film an industrial at thrree in the morning that night. "No." I answered until Pam (?) looked them in the eyes, said "Tim knows how to say no". And they immediately exited.I also laugh at Sea Org- it was a boat for heaven's sake- one that got condemned I believe.

RobertEckert
RobertEckert

 @YouBelieveWhat. You sleep very very well at night because you are so ego driven and silly that you already believe yourself superior and above all others.  You should have some compassion for those who don't have your ability to make yourself feel all superior without any assistance.

KimLoss
KimLoss

@EinsteinontheBeach@YouBelieveWhat.

I did exactly that, after 10 years in. I was already disillusioned from a staff situation, so I went looking for OT III, read it, and hit the fucking roof. I was enraged. My husband when I confronted him didn't deny it. He said it had been altered. I said it was the worst piece of science fiction I'd ever read.

 

 It's only in recent years, really since the advent of the internet, that information about Hubbard and the cult have become widely available. Given culties don't generally go looking for the info - they're told OT III is secretive because the information in it can kill you - and given that staff and SO probably NEVER get online without security clearance, you need to let go of the assumption that people walk in with their eyes open or knowing anything at all about Hubbard. They don't. There is no joyful agreement to be decieved, abused and used up. But there is always a glimmer of hope that things can get better, and that's the one promise that is repeated over and over and over.

 

YouBelieveWhat.
YouBelieveWhat.

 @EinsteinontheBeach  @kimloss4 which is another problem I have with this.  If people are slowly indoctrinated, meaning I guess that it's not a wham, bam, welcome to the scam, does no one every question this crazy shit?  Ever?  You all lose every bit of your core?  At no point during this long process do you not say, 'HOLY SHIT & JESUS H. CHRIST THIS IS ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT"?

EinsteinontheBeach
EinsteinontheBeach

 @YouBelieveWhat.  @kimloss4 

 

You should read up on the subject.   There's a reason it's called a "long con," it's because the reveal of the bait-and-switch is slow enough that you are substantially indoctrinated by the time you find out about the crazy stuff.

KimLoss
KimLoss

 @LEescapee Irrelevant, IMO - her description of the characteristic of cults is what's pertinent and those stand on their own merit. It's one of many books on the subject, it's just the first one I personally read when I was leaving the church, so it's a favorite. :)

 

LEescapee
LEescapee

 @kimloss4 But be careful and remember that she was sued by Landmark Education (successor of est, which was based on "stolen" Scientology method and theory) and so she had to remove reference to Landmark from the book.

KimLoss
KimLoss

 @YouBelieveWhat. And yes, public and staff frequently quetion the need for a price tag on freedom. That is, conveniently, addressed in multiple policies that are designed to stop those questions.

 

KimLoss
KimLoss

 @YouBelieveWhat.  If you want to know the mechanics of how and why people buy in to the belief system you should read Cults in Our Midst by Dr. Margaret Singer, study the experiments that FistofXenu so kindly referred you to and perhaps visit ESMB to ask exes how they fell for it. 

 

 

YouBelieveWhat.
YouBelieveWhat.

 @kimloss4 And at no time does it occur to these altrustic folks that "if this shit is so great, why is it not free? Why are these people spending so damn much money on this tripe"

 

 

KimLoss
KimLoss

 @YouBelieveWhat. Again you're demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of the subject at hand. The majority of people who wind up in the church as staff are not there for their own benefit, they're there because they've been sold the idea that they can do something to benefit the rest of the people on the planet. Staff rarely get in session, rarely go up the bridge themselves, work godawful hours for little or no pay and are subject to invalidation, psychological manipulation and abuse. Not because they want to be superman, because they want to give everyone ELSE a piece of the heaven that hubbard promised.

 

On public, you're half right. I met quite a few egomaniacs whose only concern was their own progress. But even those were few and far between.

 

YouBelieveWhat.
YouBelieveWhat.

 @kimloss4 I sleep very, very well at night knowing that I am not so ego driven and silly that I will be sucked into a cult that promises me I will be superior and above all others by virtue of my belief in a "religion" started by a con man & ego maniac.

 

KimLoss
KimLoss

 @YouBelieveWhat. Go ahead and tell yourself that the only people who ever fall prey to a cult had a mental defect that allowed it, then. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

 

YouBelieveWhat.
YouBelieveWhat.

 @kimloss4 I can state with absolute certainty that being sucked into scientology or any other cult will never happen to me. I can also state with 100% certainty that I will never be in a street gang, the mafia, a pimp, a prostitute, a drug dealer, a child abuser, a pornographer or a porn star. 

Let me ask you something. Take a street gang, the gang is set up with a hierarchy, the top dogs and the flunkies.  The street gang has it's own language and jargon which is just gibberish. The street gang promises big money and power to the flunkies if they do as they are told.  The street gang members always protect the gang.  The street gang members are taught by the top dogs that everyone is against them and their enemy, except for other members of the street gang.  Are the member of the street gang "brain washed" or just garden variety criminals?

Now Trending

New York Concert Tickets

From the Vault

 

Loading...