Movie Night at Scientology's New York "Org": The Village Voice Gets Proselytized!

The image you see here means a lot to us at the underground bunker, where we keep an eye on all things Scientology related. And on this lazy Sunday morning, we hope you'll indulge us as we attempt to explain what it represents.

Andreas Heldal-Lund, meet Chill EB.

Chill, meet the devil.

Back in 2001, I got to write one of my favorite all-time stories about Scientology, a story that described how a woman in Southern California who considered a man living in Norway to be the devil actually came to know him, and his kind words allowed her to admit to herself that she had grave doubts about her church.

Tory Christman's subsequent public defection from Scientology was a very dramatic moment in the pre-Anonymous world of online debate about the church. And until I wrote my story, few people really understood what part had been played by Andreas Heldal-Lund, who owned a website called "Operation Clambake."

Both Tory and Andreas ended up on last year's Top 25 People Crippling Scientology. Tory for the way she has continued to be among the most active of ex-Scientologists who bring the church's alleged abuses to light. And Andreas for how much Operation Clambake proved to be a key resource for Scientology researchers, and remained online despite the church's repeated attempts to have it pulled down.

More than a decade since that story, I finally got the chance to meet Heldal-Lund for the first time when he visited New York City last week.

He came by the offices of the Voice, where I snapped this photo...


He turned out to be as humble as I'd found him on e-mail -- he downplayed what he'd been through battling Scientology's attorneys, saying that Zenon Panoussis (in Sweden) and Karin Spaink (in the Netherlands) had been through far worse.

Heldal-Lund was in town for a brief vacation before he and his fellow delegates were heading to Montreal for a meeting of the International Humanist and Ethical Union. I asked to meet his friends, and then the five of us went for a stroll away from their Times Square Hotel.

And soon found ourselves outside Scientology's fancy org on 46th Street.

Was it planned? I can only say that Andreas and I weren't really paying much attention as his friends led us right to the place. It was just a happy accident, and so Andreas and I pulled out our cameras to take a few fun photos.

And that's when one of the workers at the org insisted on getting into the act. The African-American woman, who had been operating a table outside the building, pulled us together to take a photo of the four of us -- with Andreas, his friend, and me -- and after several tries, she managed to get the shot.

The photo taken, she then invited us inside to see a film.

Well, how could we refuse.

Heldal-Lund, his three friends, and I were ushered into the org, which I'd only been inside one time before -- when I attempted to get a comment about an Anonymous protest going on across the street, and I was immediately ushered out.

This time, I was guided upstairs, where I was surprised to see a couple of dozen people -- many of them very young, and most non-white -- as they sat at tables in a small sort of cafe setting. Others were inside a large chapel down the hall, and on most of the walls were shelf after shelf of L. Ron Hubbard books. (David Love had made his own visit to the org the same week. Talk about upstat!)

We were ushered into a small projection room that had about four rows of chairs and a large viewing screen -- I felt like I was in the front row at a movie theater, with the film right up against my face.

We then watched a film of about 20 minutes that felt far longer.

It was classic Golden Era Productions stuff, with lush visuals bringing back the late 1940s as a golden age. The movie tells the story of L. Ron Hubbard's friends trying to convince the American Psychiatric Association and the American Medical Association that their friend Ron had discovered a foolproof way to heal everything, even all-but-severed legs. (The healing claims in this film are really foregrounded, making me think Scientology has decided the government will never give a crap.)

I only wish I could bring that film to you, so you could see Geoffrey Lewis chew up scenery as one of Ron's outraged friends, stunned that America's physicians and scientists couldn't see the value in Ron's ideas.

After an eternity, the film finally ended after doing its best to convince us that nothing in human history quite matches the monumental leap forward represented in the publishing of Dianetics.

As soon as it went dark, a friendly young Sea Org member opened the door, and pulled us into the hall, where she handed each of us a shrink-wrapped, oversized paperback copy of the book. Here was the amazing artifact itself!

And it could be ours for only $20, she said.

Twenty bucks? Aren't entire landfills stuffed with this thing?

We handed them back, and I told her I didn't need to buy a copy. I already had one.

Really? She asked.

Yeah, first edition, 1950.

"A green one?" she asked, clearly impressed.

Yep, I answered. (Expert researcher Jeff Jacobsen has loaned me his first edition copy, which I'm planning to do something with later on.)

And I then told her that there was something that I really wanted to see. I asked her if I could see Chill EB's film for the IAS.

"It's right over here," she said, and she guided us down the hall.

Let me explain what prompted me to make that request.

Last November, one of the best Scientology music videos of all time leaked to the Internet. It featured the young breakdancers of the Copenhagen advanced org performing to the song "Dauntless, Defiant, and Resolute," which was made for the International Association of Scientologists by the church's in-house rapper, Chill EB.

Take a look...

We loved that video, but it was obvious to us right away that the man who had written and performed the music, Bay Area rapper Norman Berry, who goes by Chill EB, was not involved in the making of the video itself.

And as I learned more about Chill EB, I realized that Chill had made his own video of that song for the IAS -- but it has never been leaked to the public.

The only thing that's made it outside the church are some photos of Chill on the set of his video, like this one...


In a late-night Twitter DM conversation with me, Chill confirmed that there was an "official" video of the song, but it only plays at Scientology's orgs, and it wasn't something he could share with the rest of the world.

Now, I was in the New York org, and I wanted to see the video.

"Are you a Scientologist?" the young Sea Org member asked me as she took us to our quarry. I can't blame her for asking. I'd already told her that I possessed a first edition copy of Dianetics, and I was asking to see a Chill EB video by name.

And then, we were there: a video monitor set aside just for the IAS. The woman fiddled with it to get the video started, and those first familiar keyboard notes started, and I heard Chill's familiar voice, "We're the IAS..." (For some reason, the subtitles were in Italian.)

A slick video ensued, showing Chill EB performing on a rooftop, with cutaways to happy groups of Scientologist staffs at various orgs around the world. The visuals were great, if the propaganda was thin.

While it was playing, I asked Andreas to get in the picture so I could capture the moment.

By the time it was done, most of the people on the second floor seemed to have cleared out, and no one was pushing us to give information or see anything else. Andreas figured by then we had been ID'd. We gathered his friends and left.

I saw the Sea Org woman one more time, and I told her that they should really share the Chill EB video, and the Dianetics film, with the rest of the world. But she just smiled and repeated that they only played inside the org.

What a pity.


Scientology Sunday Funnies!

Just about every day, we receive the latest wacky and tacky fundraising mailers put out by Scientology orgs around the world. Thank you, tipsters, for forwarding them to us! On Sundays, we love to reveal them to you.

It looks like our weekly look at Scientology fliers is having an effect. Note that in this announcement of a Washington DC building dedication, the date and time are not included. It's like they don't want us to show up!


Yet another appeal for money so yet more L. Ron Hubbard books can be sent to yet more libraries that don't want them...


I'm told that "Her Royal Governor" is a reference to Nancy Cartwright, OT extraordinaire and the voice of Bart Simpson. I hope someone can help us understand how she managed to get saddled with that moniker.



For something like five years now, someone has offered to sell a library of L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology books and letters and checksheets -- 28,426 individual items -- and has been asking $3.5 million for the whole shebang at eBay...


Critics of the church have fun bidding a dollar or two, but no one seems interested in forking over three and a half mill for this treasure trove of Hubbard wisdom.

Anonymous has made some guesses as to who is "CEC," the group behind this offer. If we can confirm some of it, we'll put some more details here.


After we published yesterday's fun look at Scientology's heyday with the 1977 "OT Symposium" that featured Chick Corea and Heber Jentzsch, Mark Bunker posted a very different kind of symposium to YouTube.

Shot in 2000, the hour-plus video features OT VIIs Peter Alexander, Greg and Debra Barnes, and Tory (Christman) Bezazian talking about this thing Scientology that had taken up so much of their lives.

It's kind of amazing to me how much what they're saying is exactly what the people leaving Scientology today are complaining about. Truly, Scientology does not evolve.

"This is not a religion. It's a legalized mafia."

See also:
Scientology's president and the death of his son: our complete coverage
What Katie is saving Suri from: Scientology interrogation of kids
Scientology's new defections: Hubbard's granddaughter and Miscavige's dad
Scientology's disgrace: our open letter to Tom Cruise
Scientology crumbling: An entire mission defects as a group
Scientology leader David Miscavige's vanished wife: Where's Shelly?
Neil Gaiman, 7, Interviewed About Scientology by the BBC in 1968
The Master Screenplay: Scientology History from Several Different Eras
And a post that pulls together the best of our Scientology reporting

Please check out our Facebook author page for updates and schedules.

Tony Ortega has been the editor in chief of the Village Voice since March, 2007. He started writing about Scientology in 1995. You can reach him by e-mail at, and if you ask nicely he'll put you on his mailing list for notifications of new stories. You can also catch his alerts at Twitter (@VoiceTonyO), at his Facebook author page, on Pinterest, a Tumblr, and even this new Google Plus doohickey.

New readers might want to check out our primer, "What is Scientology?" Another good overview is our series from last summer, "Top 25 People Crippling Scientology." At the top of every story, you'll see the "Scientology" category which, if you click on it, will bring up all of our most recent stories.

As for hot subjects we've covered here, you may have heard about Debbie Cook, the former church official who rebelled and was sued by Scientology. You might have also heard about the Super Power Building, Scientology's "Mecca," whose secrets were revealed here. We also reported how Scientology spied on its own most precious object, Tom Cruise. (We wrote Tom an open letter that he has yet to respond to.) Have you seen a Scientology ad on TV lately? We debunked some of the claims in that 2-minute commercial you might have seen while watching Glee or American Idol.

Other stories have looked at Scientology's policy of "disconnection" that is tearing families apart. You may also have heard something about the Sea Org experiences of the Paris sisters, Valeska and Melissa, and their friend Ramana Dienes-Browning. We've also featured Paulette Cooper, who wrote about Scientology back in the day, and Janet Reitman, Hugh Urban, and the team at the Tampa Bay Times, who write about it today. And there's plenty more coming.

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Wow,this livefyre is the worst system I have ever seen.It is a complete joke and will cause many people to stay away from this site.That is bad news.


Chill-E, adding a new level to the term 'sucker MC.'


I am re-posting my earlier post/reply for new readers and lurkers,

because I think it's important.



Thank you for sharing this, AussieCase! In regards to past life memories, I know what you mean, since I was on both sides of the e-meter.


When a pre-clear/OT prompted by the auditor to look for an earlier-similar incidents beyond this lifetime, I think it gets one's imagination going.


So when the image/idea is being generated, person wonders what if it actually did happen and not just a fantasy he or she just created.


The sheer exciting possibility of it might possibly cause the increase of adrenaline/endorphin levels and other glandular activity, which  in turn affects

the rest of person's body and get's picked up by e-meter, which serves as "a proof"

of a past life "memory".


Hence, multiple people "realizing" they were Marylin Monroe, Jesus Christ and other historical prominent figures.


Now I am not a neuroscientist, not even close, but this is my current theory based on a personal experience in metered auditing of past lives.


And I think it's a topic well worth discussing, since it has everything to do with why

scientologists are clinging onto their beliefs and practices, despite of all the red flags and abuses.


1977 "OT Symposium" vs. 2000 "OT Panel" = Epic "OT" conundrum.


The winner - 2000 and the rest of human mankind in 2012.


If you are following someone's teachings, and subsequently judging the wisdom of those teachings solely on how good they make you feel, that is a setup for disaster.


What you should be looking for is insight, and wisdom, not a heroin-like rush of euphoria. 


Ex-OTs seem a helluva lot wiser than those 1970's duped OTs.


Great article Tony. And, by the way, I met Tory on line in 2000 as advesaries. Lol! Back then she called herself Magoo. And may I just say, she was a Hoot! Sign that woman up (I thought to myself), even as I disagreed with her position. And then one day (actually it was one evening) I signed in on line and was shocked to read what Magoo had written. Right in front of God and everyone! (OSA included) To wit: I am done with Scientology. I had to reread it numerous times to let it sink in. Here was a brilliant advocate of Scientology renouncing her former allience with the church. Damn that was good, and rich. And unforgettable (to this day).


By all historical accounts (written and yet to be written) Tory will go down in world history as a force to be reckoned with, that the entire heirarchy of Scientology International, was wholly unequipped to deal with. She was, in a word (or phrase) 'the power of truth and love unafraid'. Still gives me tingles to recall it.


My place in history (being a tidbit only the most dedicated historians would know) was that when Magoo first came out, she was attacked like a lamb in a field of lions. And against all odds (psychologically speaking) I became her public defender, on line. For the simple reason, I believed her. Whereas at that time, none of the other critics did.


And the rest, as they say, is history! And great history to boot!


ps: back then I called myself the lover of truth, 0777. Not to be confused with an OSA operative of a similiar on-line name. lol.






"I heard Chill's familiar voice, 'We're the IAS...' (For some reason, the subtitles were in Italian.)" Ah, you have stumbled across DM's new pilot project, decades in the making. Have you ever had your computer fail to boot, then become enraged when you had it overboarded, and it felt no pain? Not exactly? Well, some people have. One needs to be able to hold hardware responsible. Someone you can sec check when it starts nattering about toner, for example. Someone you can lord it over. Someone who feels pain.


There are a lot of aging Sea Org members who cannot be profitably retained, due to increasing risk of expensive health issues. What to do with them all? So I'm thinking that was MMiglio on a chip sneakily saying hello. Realizing that the service tech would KR him for it, he then probably fingered you to the reception desk. Don't hold it against him, though, when you're an IAS video console, it's not like you can just blow.


So long as blackmail and bribery are institutionalized in the politcal landscape of the United States of America 'Democracy', Scientology will be immune to prosecution (by United States authorities). Period. Don't get me wrong here, I love Tony's work. It's powerful and persuasive. But the Scientology Narconon debacle of Oklahoma now making its waves in the United States media is and will remain to be, living proof of the assertion above. That 'treatment center' will be shut down, but another will reappear in another locality, with local 'authorities' making speeches about its 'incredible value' to the community, in very short order. If political/human corruption lived in the sea it would be an enormous octopus. 


Scientology owns a lot more than Ideal Orgs. It owns Ideal Politicans and Official Authorities. And the later is far more lucrative to own than the former. If this post was/is off topic, I apologize. Needed to vent a little, that's all.  




I read it here somewhere.

Who was the girl who said, "I smoked a joint with Cher. That doesn't mean I ran out the next day and got a nose job."


 @the1d  I have to agree.  A comment section for articles like these loses a lot of its point if you can't follow conversations you're having. Just now I went back to the OT Summit page to see what people said since last night and saw that there were a number of new comments. The 3rd one I went to I tried to click the Like button, got told I had to click a button to refresh my session, clicked it, and wham! - the doo-hickeys that identify the new comments were gone. Plus, it wouldn't let me log back in on that page. Yet this page is ok. It's not even necessarily consistently annoying. 


And then there's all that stuff about having to reload the comments 50 at a time if you reload a page (which it forces me to do randomly). What, like we only want to read some of the comments?  It's too much like hard work and I'm starting to feel like it's wasting too much time to just check in from time to time and keep tabs on who's saying what. 



 Wow!  That's hysterical.  For that much cash I'd expect to get at least 50,000 of them with free shipping thrown in.  Worthless crap. 


@DodoTheLaser e-meters measure galvanic response which is pretty complex when you're talking about the resistance of the human body. No real direct path for ions in dense tissues. That's why the needle jumps. Scientology auditing teaches a form of biofeedback which controls semi automatic body functioning. One learns to control the meter. So the real question is if you are controlling the needle then whats the point? It's not telling you anything you don't already know.



 I share your opinion. Much too often people believe the e-meter. If there is a reaction, then it must be true. But the meter reacts only on a physical change in the body. And that I think can be anything. Maybe indeed adrenaline, stress, or a change in the heartbeat. Just holding those cans, doing nothing, gives also all kinds of needle reactions. With some exercise you can move the needle at will.

In fact it is the interpretation of the person audited and the auditor that matter. And interpretation is very subjective. In that case anything can be true, especially in a space opera setting of Scientology.

You are right that it is worth analysing scientifically what the e-meter registers. I think there are already some articles about this on the net.

If it were to be proven that the e-meter is not an indication of proof in any sense, then the basis of the auditing technique falls away. Wasn't it proofed already that the lie-detector did not work? Maybe that's all the proof we need, because it works on the same principle, at least the older types.


 @DodoTheLaser Thanks for re-posting, I missed the original.


Part of this goes to the question of what the e-meter does, and I think the majority of the twitches (so-called reads) were not connect to specific thoughts, I had to make believe they were. I think it is just BS and it would take considerable independent testing to convince me otherwise.


The following is my speculation:


I think it happens bit by bit. At first people piece together dodgy thoughts, and they get a little positive feedback, and they tell more stories, and the get more positive feedback. As you tell more and more stories and get more and more positive feedback it becomes more and more normal or everyday, even common place. Then the stories have to escalate.


Ultimately you are Boudicca.


I was given a lot of negative feedback for not having past life recall, I actually thought Scientology didn't work on me because I was special.




P.S. My trophy list (some of it includes myself, not Jesus though, so chill people):


-  Edwin, King of Northumbria

- Jesus, the Christ

- Spaceship  pilot

- Thetan, The Universe Banker

- Brick Face Assault Commander

- Original Saint Hill staff auditor

- Apollo ship CS 5 (Qual) executive.


And more. Yeah. Floating needle included.


 @DodoTheLaser I have a little (admittedly completely amateur) experience remixing videos, and I've wanted to splice some of the $ci videos into an actual truthful (and humorous) one. Unfortunately, every time I start trying, I just can't make it through how much I have to actually watch of the videos to do so. Maybe I'll try to stick it out though, if so I'll post it here for sure...


 @Walllicker  Just  from what I've seen, most OT's from the '70 have gotten out or were declared by Dm so as not to complain about his leadership and changes. Most OT's of last so many years are still in with having the new OT stuff run on them and mind controlled to support the organization.


 @lamoore0888  IMO some of the politicians and authorities may be owned, but they don't know it, just like a cult member not knows he's being controlled.

Therefore one of the purposes of Tony's blog and all others, is to help wake up the public, who then can expose the dangers to those in government. Government and politicians need to know how, and that the 'church' does indeed manipulate them.



 Not only that but the newest story by Tony you can't sign in,you can't comment you can't do anything.This whole changeover has been a complete disaster at a time when so many more people are learning and trying to voice their opinions on this hidious cult.This was the worst time to do a change over.


 @FistOfXenu  @the1d And if you go to a MyVoiceNation page, and click on a comment, it just goes to the article the comment was posted on, not the specific comment. And  you probably can't use Find, because the comment is probably hidden.


 @all.clear  @DodoTheLaser One can control the needle. Not always though. Back to the "pinch test". I really want to deconstruct it, so we all can understand it fully. People get hooked mainly because of that,

yet Clear and OT is a scam. If this phenomena can be explained scientifically, the whole con will cease to exist over night or develop into something entirely different, hopefully something benevolent.


 @sara It all starts with a pinch test, Sara - you get pinched, while holding e-meter cans and you normally see the needle taking a 2 inch deep or so to the right, then you are asked to recall the moment of the pinch, so you do and needle does the same again, although you are not pinched this time, just a memory of it.


It impresses most people and makes them think that there is something true about the whole thing, later on it extrapolates for the rest of "the bridge to total freedom", no matter how outlandish.


Here is an example:

Marty does it to BBC's John Sweeney..


This is why I think it is important to explain this

phenomena, starting with a "pinch test".


Thank you everyone, who shared your thoughts

and experiences about this so far.



 @sara There is no scientific evidence that either the lie detector, or e-meter is accurate.


I understand that the full details of how a polygraph, which includes a skin galvanometer works is unknown, but it has not been shown to be accurate, that is it is not significantly and consistently better than random chance.



 @DodoTheLaser @sara And I am no neuroscientist, but in addition to what you've hypothesized about physiological changes in the subject causing needle reactions on the e-meter, it seems fair to hypothesize that the positive feedback-- and calling it a "win"-- etc may produce a chemical reaction in the subject's brain (perhaps a release of dopamine) similar to a "high" one might experience after taking a mild opiate, and hence an addition may be generated. Those who are most addicted are those less likely to see the folly (and the fraud) of the process, even though, logically, they can understand (or be made to understood) how it works. Just look at how many opiate addicts go to rehab over and over and over again. It isn't because they don't understand, logically, that the drug is not good or helpful to them that they keep returning to it. And I wonder if those who have left the cult, but who keep up with the auditing, are simply more "addicted" to the chemical reaction they get via the process.


 @DodoTheLaser you just know that some poor sap somewhere actually came up with that they were General Zod?




You're right, I should have been more specific - I was referring to that 1970's OT interview from Advance magazine



 Very nicely spoken. And I agree. Unfortunately my residual anger seems to 'sometimes' cloud my capacity for deeper thought. Lol. This would be one of those times. At minimum I am willing to believe what you say is true. The only alternative being to believe that human corruption is factually that real. At minium you've brought back to a 50/50 proposition. Which is a far cry from believing we are basically fucked. So to speak. And pardon the language if need be. 


 @the1d I don't want to forget that Disqus wasn't all plain sailing either, but LiveFyre just blows

- smoke that is. 


I'm not quite losing the will to live but I'm losing the will to go through all that agita to keep up with the conversations. 



Gottcha, those are hilarious. The majority of real OT's should that title matter, got out in the '80's


 @smallchange That's what a racket it is, which is why there is something really really rotten in Denmark when it comes to the IRS, FBI, etc. etc.  I am not a conspiracy theorist, but I am a corruption theorist.


 @PoisonIvy What a load of crap. A catholic school couldn't contribute even though it isn't technically a church. It's part of a church.


 @smallchange The church can't, but Narconon and Applied Scholastics can (out of the church coffers).  THAT's where the fact that this is such a corrupt racket really shows, because it's clear to everyone on the planet (except apparently the IRS and the US gov) that these organizations are fronts for the church.  


 @PoisonIvy I thought churches weren't permitted to donate to political causes: the separation of church and state. How does Scientology get to have it both ways, being tax exempt and yet polluting the political process like a corporation?


 @lamoore0888 There are those within the 'church' who know where the bribe money goes...and some of them may end up as "exes".  At the rate things are going on the exec level there, maybe sooner rather than later.



 And.....that is not going to happen. Period. For the simple reason election money in our country is akin to owning gold. Think about it, the politicians receiving election money are supposed to tell the people 'who' is giving them their money for re-election? Lol. Ain't gonna happen. The Supreme Court sealed the deal. But I do love and admire your innocence.


From my point of view the reason Scientology and the US government are in bed is because they share and operate on the very same principles of power. Secrecy and Money.








 @deElizabethan  @lamoore0888 This is why the names of politicians and officials who accept "donations" from Scientology or Scientology Front Groups need to be published - along with the amount of money they've received from them.  Next to the name and dollar amount should be posted policy decisions made by the recipient that mysteriously seem to favor Scientology.  For example

(this is hypothetical but you get the drift):


Joe Congressman, Oklahoma

$200,000 in donations

Claimed Narconon should not be interfered with by the state because it was "faith-based" treatment


A list of all these folks, state by state, published regularly, might wake some people up, particularly if something happens that hits the news, such as another death, charge of child neglect, etc.


 @lamoore0888  I trust and believe the residual anger will  decrease and the clouds will just disappear, poof!

I'd say simpler thought, not neccesarily deeper. It is good that you speak, thanks.


 @SvenBoogie take a listen. ( and a view...someone did a montage of sorts on you tube ) A guy named Dan called in and pretty much nailed him. Larry Wallershiem ( sp? ) still lives up in Boulder ( i think ) and WOW. i was born into the catholic church and called bullshit on a priest when i was about 8 and i have been trying to get ex-communicated ever since ( ha ) but logic goes...if you do not believe that jesus was the son of god, born of a virgin, died on the cross for our sins, rose from the dead..and will come back ...then you are not a catholic. Seems like a fair assessment. Listen to what marty is now trying to wiggle out of ...and listen to the air go out of his sails as soon as Dan calls in and states the obvious. How people still believe anything that comes out of this guys mouth just amazes me. And keep in mind ...not only was i never a part of scientology...i have never even read an LRH book ( or eaten a pile of shit but i know i don't wanna ) but the pleasure i get from this guy Dan calling out marty right up there with  when i told the priest he was lying to me and he should be ashamed of himself


 @kimobrien1 I didn't realize Rathbun said/thought that. Once a liar always a liar I guess, 'fatty' hubbard made it clear it wasn't to be taken as allegory. 


 @StillKeyedOut question for you ...are you the guy who called into the radio interview with Marty here in Denver when he was trying to say that the thetan deal was just an allegory ? If so ...insert image of Wayne and Garth bowing at your feet saying "we are not worthy" because that was freaking brilliant 


 @StillKeyedOut thanks. i find this whole thing so confusing , the con so obvious and the "special language" so ...well...ridiculous(sorry but  that is just where it takes me)  that humor tends to clarify if for me. 

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