Scientology's Oklahoma Nemesis, Bob Lobsinger: "They Lied Every Step of the Way"

BobLobsinger.jpg
Bob Lobsinger
On Saturday and Tuesday, we gave readers some background on the Scientology drug treatment center in Oklahoma -- called Narconon Arrowhead -- that is now the center of controversy after four recent deaths which are under investigation, three just since October.

Tonight, a report by Rock Center's Harry Smith on NBC should explode interest in the goings on at the strange drug rehab, where patients learn Scientology processes -- like hours-long staring drills and talking to inanimate objects -- rather than getting counseling for their actual drug problems.

In our previous stories, we explained that Scientology has had a long, colorful history in Oklahoma, where it started an effort in the late 1980s to make a new center there the launching pad for a period of expansion.

But standing in their way was the editor of a small weekly newspaper who proceeded to give Scientology hell over the next three years. His name is Bob Lobsinger, and this week I had a lengthy conversation with him.

"If they'd just come in here and been honest about who they were and what they wanted, it probably would have flown. But they lied every step of the way," Lobsinger told me by telephone from his home in Newkirk, Oklahoma.

In 1980, the Bureau of Indian Affairs had closed a school in nearby Chilocco, Oklahoma and turned over its buildings and land to five tribes in the north central part of the state. About eight years later, Narconon officials began negotiating to take over parts of the school to turn it into its first large in-patient facility in the country. The officials said nothing about Scientology, but Lobsinger soon figured out that the church was really behind what was going on, and he announced it loudly in his weekly column.

Lobsinger says that one cute trick Narconon pulled was to have something called ABLE -- the Association for Better Living and Education -- show up and turn over a $200,000 check to help fund the center. The gesture was intended to show that Narconon was such an exciting new enterprise, it was attracting funding from outside sources.

But Lobsinger was suspicious. He took a good look at the check from ABLE, and realized that he recognized the address. Sure enough, ABLE and Narconon International shared an office -- and it turned out, ABLE was actually Narconon's parent corporation, and both were part of Scientology. The check was a pure sham. (On Tuesday, we reported the startling information that for the last five years, ABLE's president, Rena Weinberg, has been confined to Scientology's bizarre office-prison in California, known as "The Hole.")

Just about every week for three years, Lobsinger wrote about Scientology's invasion of Newkirk. (You can find many of them in this archive.)

"When you run a small weekly newspaper like this, your big story is that you get a grain elevator that blows up about every 25 years. But this was my big story. And we still have our grain elevator," he says.

Lobsinger kept up the pressure as Narconon tried and failed to get state certification for its expensive center. Eventually, the facility went around the state by getting an exemption through private certification.

In the meantime, Lobsinger says, he was targeted for classic harassment from the church, which knows only one way to handle opposition: always attack, never defend.

"We had Gene Ingram out here harassing people," he says, referring to a disgraced former Los Angeles police officer who served as Scientology's chief private eye for its "noisy investigations" and dirty tricks.

"He was trying to get me to sign a bunch of papers that said we had been wrong and L. Ron Hubbard was right. I chased him out of the office," Lobsinger says.

"They sent a couple of guys from LA. They showed up in Newkirk, a little agricultural town of 2,000 people. They sent them around to give people a hard time. They were trying to find my house. It was rainier than the dickens," he remembers. "I live six and a half miles out in the country. They were wearing these California leisure suits, with mud up to their knees."

If they didn't know their way around very well, they still managed to follow the classic Scientology playbook of intimidation.

"They did the 'noisy investigation' that they always come up with. People around town would call me about every 15 minutes. Oh, they're over at the tax office to see if you're paying your taxes. Now they're at the courthouse looking to see if you've been sued," he says.

"Then they hired a private investigator who was taking pictures of all the empty storefronts in town. He was telling everyone that they were going to be bringing economic development to Newkirk when they opened their center, and I was the one who was holding it all back."

Apparently, they were only getting warmed up.

"One night I was working late at the newspaper. I had a call from my wife. Somebody was knocking on our door at one in the morning. She wouldn't answer the door. He was trying to tell her that he was delivering some lost luggage to us. But I hadn't been anywhere and I didn't have any lost luggage. She told him to leave it at the police station," he says. "I never even checked to see if they had left anything."

Then there was the time someone called to tell him that he and his brother were the beneficiaries of a life insurance policy in Georgia.

"They probably figured out that I had worked at a newspaper in Georgia. I think they were trying to find my brother. They said they wanted his address to notify him that he was a beneficiary. But I think that was just another case of trying to pump us for information," he says.

"They sent somebody to visit my brother's ex-wife down in Florida," he remembers. "They sent someone all the way down there. But she didn't know anything."

Another time, a church operative showed up at the Herald Journal with a fistful of cash. "He said he needed to buy an ad," Lobsinger says. "He wanted to know if I was interested. I told him if it met our standards, we'd take his money."

The man left, saying that he'd get the copy for the ad and come back. "About 20 minutes later, he showed up, and his ad turned out to be a rebuttal by the Narconon people of everything I had published in my paper. I'm sorry, I told him, that copy just doesn't meet our standards. I'm going to have to refuse it."

The next day, he says, the ad ran in two competing papers to the north of Newkirk.

The same rebuttal then showed up in the mailboxes of about 800 of Lobsinger's subscribers. He said it didn't take long to figure out that Scientology's private eyes had fished out a partial circulation list from the newspaper's trash bins.

Then he told me his creepiest memory from that period.

"They sent one guy around trying to talk to the mayor. He knew who the mayor's kid was, somehow. So he followed the kid into the library and told him he need to talk to his dad. Then he gave him his card," Lobsinger says. "It was just to let the mayor know they knew where his kid was."

Narconon, meanwhile, battled with Oklahoma's Department of Mental Health, which refused to grant certification to the center.

"They battled back and forth for a couple of years in court," Lobsinger says. "Then all of a sudden Narconon showed up with CARF certification."

Narconon asked for an exemption from state licensing after it convinced CARF, the Commission on Accreditation of Rehabilitation Facilities, to give it approval.

"The state had maxed out its legal budget," Lobsinger says. "So they gave up when CARF certification showed up. The AG's office dropped everything." Newkirk was then stuck with the center Lobsinger had worked so hard to expose.

"My gut feeling is that Narconon had no intention of ever getting state certification, but used the time to infiltrate CARF while badgering the Health Department and burning up several years' worth of the state's legal budget. I had at least one director of the state health department contact me several times by phone, saying his wife had been followed and he was fearful that his phones had been tapped," Lobsinger says.

"The board found an 'out' of their problem when the group provided their CARF papers, and jumped at the chance to give them a waiver. Similarly, the state attorney's office abruptly dropped the cases it was conducting and the only excuse given was that they were told to do so from higher up."

Lobsinger says only a few of his readers ever complained about his coverage of Scientology. There was the landlord, for example, who was making a killing off of the Los Angeles church officials, and who didn't want his gravy train to end. But otherwise, his readers were behind him as Lobsinger fended off the harassment.

"It was just a lot of little things that occurred then that have never occurred since," he says.

He sold the Herald Journal in 2000, which was just about the perfect time to sell a print publication.

To this day, however, more than a decade after he sold the paper and Narconon moved away from Newkirk to the Arrowhead Lodge, he still gets calls from distraught parents, desperate to learn more about Scientology and Narconon after being duped into sending a child there.

Bob says he doesn't mind answering those calls.


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Tonight's NBC Script Online Now?

I just noticed this story attributed to NBC producer Anna Schecter at the Rock Center website.

The opening paragraphs appear identical to what Harry Smith says in the teaser that NBC put out a few days ago. Could this be the full story that Smith is going to be delivering tonight?

If so, it's got some strengths and weaknesses.

Based on this story and the teasers we've seen so far, Harry Smith does an excellent job interviewing the families of people who lost their lives in the Narconon facility. Here's another new teaser...

But we had to scratch our head when we saw that the piece asks some "experts" about the efficacy of L. Ron Hubbard's notion of "sweating out" drugs from the body, even years after their use.

"Based on the fundamental well known principles of equilibrium chemistry...such therapy is a very reasonable approach to detoxification," said Dr. Vin LoPresti, a biologist who supports Narconon's methods. LoPresti said the use of sauna therapy is "gentler" and has "fewer side-effects" than drug-based detoxification. LoPresti said he has not been to any Narconon facilities and is not aware of the circumstances of the deaths at Narconon Arrowhead. He said he can only speak to the efficacy of Hubbard's methods.

We looked around, and found little about Vin LoPresti online (except for his medical fiction). He did apparently write the following description of himself for a "progressive" op-ed website back in 2007:

"a molecular biologist who's [sic] passion is the philsophical [sic] and pragmatic expansion of the US healthcare system away from its insane addiction to physician-lock, reductionistic, simpleminded drug therapy toward a more-global view based on the recognition of the primacy of organisms as information-processing networks."

Riiiiight.

Well, we're still looking forward to tonight's show. Should be a blast.

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Yet Another Impenetrable Trailer from The Master

Those lucky bastards in Chicago will be treated to a sneak-preview of The Master tonight to benefit The Film Foundation. In the meantime, this new trailer was released to announce that showing, and except for Freddie (Joaquin Phoenix) asking Mary Sue (Amy Adams) about "this Time Hole business," there's not much Scientology material here. (But we can tell you all about the Scientology in the script.)

I have to say, I found this trailer to be a bit underwhelming compared to the others. Still, this film looks like it's going to be mesmerizing.



See also:
"Tom Cruise worships David Miscavige like a god"
Scientology's president and the death of his son: our complete coverage
What Katie is saving Suri from: Scientology interrogation of kids
Scientology's new defections: Hubbard's granddaughter and Miscavige's dad
Scientology's disgrace: our open letter to Tom Cruise
Scientology crumbling: An entire mission defects as a group
Scientology leader David Miscavige's vanished wife: Where's Shelly?
Neil Gaiman, 7, Interviewed About Scientology by the BBC in 1968
The Master Screenplay: Scientology History from Several Different Eras
And a post that pulls together the best of our Scientology reporting

Please check out our Facebook author page for updates and schedules.


**********
Tony Ortega has been the editor in chief of the Village Voice since March, 2007. He started writing about Scientology in 1995. You can reach him by e-mail at tortega@villagevoice.com, and if you ask nicely he'll put you on his mailing list for notifications of new stories. You can also catch his alerts at Twitter (@VoiceTonyO), at his Facebook author page, on Pinterest, a Tumblr, and even this new Google Plus doohickey.

New readers might want to check out our primer, "What is Scientology?" Another good overview is our series from last summer, "Top 25 People Crippling Scientology." At the top of every story, you'll see the "Scientology" category which, if you click on it, will bring up all of our most recent stories.

As for hot subjects we've covered here, you may have heard about Debbie Cook, the former church official who rebelled and was sued by Scientology. You might have also heard about the Super Power Building, Scientology's "Mecca," whose secrets were revealed here. We also reported how Scientology spied on its own most precious object, Tom Cruise. (We wrote Tom an open letter that he has yet to respond to.) Have you seen a Scientology ad on TV lately? We debunked some of the claims in that 2-minute commercial you might have seen while watching Glee or American Idol.

Other stories have looked at Scientology's policy of "disconnection" that is tearing families apart. You may also have heard something about the Sea Org experiences of the Paris sisters, Valeska and Melissa, and their friend Ramana Dienes-Browning. We've also featured Paulette Cooper, who wrote about Scientology back in the day, and Janet Reitman, Hugh Urban, and the team at the Tampa Bay Times, who write about it today. And there's plenty more coming.

My Voice Nation Help
335 comments
AxXiom
AxXiom

@VoiceTonyO Lobsinger-my hero!

StickByMe
StickByMe

The trailer specifically has Hoffman saying the words "when you are in processing". I'd say that's pretty specific Scientology. Then Joaquin is clearly in an auditing session. I'd say it's the Scientolgeeist trailer so far.

the1d
the1d

I hope that people that watched Rock Center will at least understand that reading hubbards books,being thrown in a sauna with an overdose of niacin and sitting in a chair screaming at someone may not be the best approach to get someone off drugs.

 

If I were an addict  and went there I would end up leaving and doing twice as many drugs as I had done before I went there.

PreferToBeAnon
PreferToBeAnon

I was just over at Marty's seeing what they have to say about Narconon and there was a poster there who had this to say about corporate Scientology:

"Attacking the show will only have a negative affect for NN. The show’s producers will make a bigger show of this and NN will be the one suffering – worse, LRH’s valid tech will be denigrated and that’s flat out WRONG!"

I stared at that sentence for quite a long time, trying to process the thinking behind it.  They are denigrating $cientology's attack on the producers NOT because it's wrong to try and stop a show that discusses the treatment dangers, the death of young bright kids, and the preying upon of  folks who are desperate for help.  NOT because prohibiting the dissemination of this information could perchance save future heartbreak.  NOT because it is despicable to play with the media like that--society's watchdog.  NOT because it prohibits free speech and the revelation of data necessary for progress.

This poster is denigrating $cientology's attack on NBC because it will ultimately reflect upon LRH's tech.  WTF? 

This scares me.

DodoTheLaser
DodoTheLaser

I am trying to be objective and unbiased: medical personnel is a MUST at any rehab facility.

24/7. Clearly, it was not the case at Narconon Arrowhead. People paid thousands and died.

This is not right.

exileandcunning
exileandcunning

No!  The Twitter posts are back!  This time they aren't spam, but nothing loads beyond them.  Having Twitter posts that are directed at Tony show up on this page is a cool idea, but it's obviously not working.  Maybe the powers that be could simply turn off the Twitter stuff until it doesn't sabotage ALL the comments that come after the Twitter posts?  The "50 more" is finally working but only until I get to the tweets.  Frustrating!!

PoisonIvy
PoisonIvy

I know there are some here who don't like the indies, so please don't take me to task for this link (I think if auditing works for them, great.  Personally I have a hard time understanding how they can accept certain beliefs given the known facts about Hubbard and where the "tech" came from, but I also think they provide an important way station and support system for people who might not find the strength to get out of the cult otherwise.)  

 

Anyway, Marty Rathbun has an amazing procured email on his blog, sent out to Scientologists to help stop (or alter) the Rock Center Story.  

 

Here are a few choice highlights:

 

" I am reaching out to you because I know you can be tone 40 about this...Narconon is about to get a big attack on NBC news tonight.Same old crap, we’ve survived it before and will again but your help is needed. This is of course a Scientology attack as well."

 

Ummmm, "Same old crap?"  We're talking about four young people needlessly and negligently dead ! 

 

"We got instructions from up the line to have everyone call in and complain about this one sided biased show and say that they personally know people whose lives have been saved by NN. You know Tony, my husband, 35 years clean, I think you know Robert Hernandez and Bobbie Wiggins, Patty Schwartz, all NN  graduates all clean for decades. So you are not going to lie because you do  know people who did the Narconon program. But you are pissed that they would portray a program that helps people every day and staff who bust their ass working 12-16 hours days to save people’s lives in such a bad light".

 

Yeah. How on earth can they portray a place  that uses quack science,where four people died in less than a year, in such a bad light? (Scratches head.)

 

"Now comes your part, we need you to call  the station and leave a message for the producer. Anna Schecter. It is getting harder and harder to reach her (email full, voice mail full) so that is why I need someone like you, tone 40 who won’t back off by a couple of barriers....ask for Rock Center (that is her show), you want to talk to Anna Schecter, she won’t be there, you want to talk to her secretary, you do not want to leave a comment in the general mail box, you want to talk to someone in her office or talk to her personally. Don’t use Scientology lingo". 

 

I wonder how this worked out for them.  Especially the part about not using Scientology lingo!  

 

I bet they wish they had Tory Magoo back!  Happy you're in the light now, Tory!

 

The email is from Sigal Adini ("Addiction Treatment and Drug Abuse Prevention Specialist" - no degrees next to her name, big surprise) and Marty Rahtbun has posted it on his blog 'Moving Up a Little Bit Higher".  

 

Just business as usual over there, I guess.

 

 

 

deElizabethan
deElizabethan

Marty just put up a piece on Narconon- Scientology cover up. Response to NBC

Plutarch
Plutarch

Comment system not working.  I was looking forward to this evenings comments.  Too angry to keep trying to get stuff to load.  Miss yall.

deElizabethan
deElizabethan

Tony, I sit here playing around giving it lots of time, hung up on the TWITTER I go between Newest and OLDEST and it give me each one post then Twitter hang up. I will shut down again and repopen. It says 78 people are listening. Now got one more old post. 

Plutarch
Plutarch

I can only load 55 comments before I hit the bottom (the twitter comment), so not much point in contributing, it's been like this for days, comments just don't load

 

In the old days, this would have been 800 comments plus

deElizabethan
deElizabethan

The Rock Center on Narconon was excellent, especially the last bit when they talked about the investigation that are now going on. Kudos to David Love!

PreferToBeAnon
PreferToBeAnon

Sorry PoisonIvy (et al), didn't see the discussion below or I would have added it there. My thoughts overfloweth and I needed to type somewhere... quickly!

Jgg2012
Jgg2012

  Yes, the "Scientology lingo" part is my favorite.  Translation:  Scientology makes no sense, or we want you to believe we are not part of Scientology, or we want you to think Narconon is based on science, or Scientology has a bad image or Scientology is medical quackery, or all of the above?  What do you think?

sara
sara

 @PoisonIvy

 I am not defending Rathbun, but it is a fact that when he was Inspector General in 2002 he ordered medical supervision to be established, based on internal reports showing the necessity. But his plans were crossed.

The scientific basis of the whole Narconon programm remains very doubtful though.

deElizabethan
deElizabethan

@PoisonIvy  another line form that email... manipulation...

"Four people died in three and half years at  Narconon Arrowhead"

How about 3 people died in the last 9 months?

 

exileandcunning
exileandcunning

 @PoisonIvy Wow... You know, Jefferson Hawkins wrote about how after the Lisa McPherson death, DM went to Florida for a year to deal with the PR mess, but apparently no one at Int Base knew about her death, they just knew that there was a "PR flap" and DM was dealing with it.  Maybe that's how it is with these deaths, none of them read or watch the news, so they probably don't even know about it.  Even "public" scilons who aren't restricted to a base, probably are instructed never to watch the news... Sounds like this letter didn't mention the deaths, they're trying to spin it like it's just a random attack on NN.  

 

And Hubbard said that when they're winning at their goal of clearing the planet, the biased news media will attack, so probably the devout scilons are just thinking "oh, we must be doing well, that's why they're attacking Narconon."  

 

I don't understand how most of them are not even curious enough to see what the other side is saying, they probably won't even watch the Rock Center piece or try to find out what happened at Arrowhead.

Noah_Miller
Noah_Miller

 @PoisonIvy "Same old evidence based crap that shows how there's only a very minor distinction between my beliefs and those of Miscavige."

 

Marty has made so many moves in trying to portray his version of Scientology as a more esoteric religion, and yet when it comes down to it this sort of thing still shows a dogmatic belief that Hubbard knew more about medical science than the good for nothing doctors with their facts and statistics. 

 

PeggyToo
PeggyToo

 @Plutarch

 Thats strange. Mine is working fine, but I've been logged in all day. LiveFyre supposedly fixed the problem with the Twitter postings.

BosonStark
BosonStark

 @Plutarch Try reversing the order, old first. I've had to do that from the beginning.

exileandcunning
exileandcunning

 @deElizabethan Is the program available online anywhere?  I don't have a TV... I checked the Rock Center site but all they had was that 2 minutes clip that Tony posted this morning.  Damn, I wanted to watch the whole thing!

Sherbet
Sherbet

 @deElizabethan Not enough disparagement of the methods and especially the "expert" doctor in my opinion.  And I wish they had pointed out the difference between Narconon and NarcAnon.  Still, it's great to know that overseeing government authorities are looking into Arrowhead now.

exileandcunning
exileandcunning

 @sara It's not just doubtful, it's actually harmful.  There are numerous medical studies showing that staying in a sauna for that long is harmful, and it's particularly harmful for current or former addicts.  Niacin is also harmful, and also specifically for addicts, because it damages their liver, which for addicts is often already damaged.  

 

Ordering a medical director is good, but now that he's out and reading plenty of wog books and news, he should know by now that Narconon is extremely dangerous AND misleading, since they don't reveal their Scientology connection, and they tell people they will get normal drug counseling etc, when they only get sauna/vitamins and Hubbard books.  Marty has read this blog and tons of other anti-scn stuff, there's no way he could have not encountered the facts about Narconon.

Noah_Miller
Noah_Miller

 @sara The problem with that is if they need another medical opinion beyond Hubbard, than Hubbard was wrong. And that won't fly if indies or with the church. So they're screwed either way. Better to shut it all down and let them just be a religion not attempt to provide dangerous medical care. 

Noah_Miller
Noah_Miller

 @exileandcunning "If people say we're wrong, we're right, if they say we're right, we're right". Victory covers all possible outcomes. Convenient huh?

deElizabethan
deElizabethan

 @exileandcunning  @PoisonIvy   You are so right. They have been conditioned to believe the leaders.

I like your "dangerous to be curious"

Might pull some rug out from under them and they are afraid to fall. Plus the blinders and look straight ahead or the 3 monkey's, no,no and no. Oh their safe! ha!  Might just be a lot of fear instilled in them, in fact now I remember, yes, it underlies it all.

deElizabethan
deElizabethan

 @PoisonIvy  He's confusing and did not make it clear. He's showing an email he got that was sent out to scio's from this  Sigal Adini, but didn't sound like he agreed with it. More of another attack on DM for the deaths. He certainly could've been more clear. Oh well, confusion is, what confusion does. :-) LOL

Sherbet
Sherbet

 @PeggyToo  @Plutarch With each reload (and I have to do it repeatedly), some "Likes" disappear, and I keep getting the New Comment flag, but they're the same old comments.  Trying to keep it in perspective; it's not the end of the world, but it's annoying, especially when people want to have a current discussion about Rock Center.

deElizabethan
deElizabethan

 @exileandcunning  I'm sure that Tony, David's blog or someone will make it available, maybe youtube, before long. The segment  was about 15-20 minutes. 

deElizabethan
deElizabethan

 @Sherbet  @PeggyToo 

Well of course you are right on about those things and good to mention.

I like to look at the half full glass as opposed to the empy part, but that's just me.

Plutarch
Plutarch

 @Sherbet 

 

It's truly pathetic that NBC would portray a quack like that Narconon proponent as an "expert" when a cursory review of his qualifications shows that he is about as qualified as Hubbard to be an "expert" on anything.  It will really make me rethink how reliable NBC is as a news source- perhaps it is becoming FOX.

PeggyToo
PeggyToo

 @Sherbet  @deElizabethan

 I agree Sherbet. I think more emphasis should have been put on the massive doses of niacin and on how many 'student' are recruited to work there.  Good job bringing up the fact of illegal drugs being in the facility. Overall, not too bad. Hope David Love invited them to the protest!!

Noah_Miller
Noah_Miller

 @ClamOnAHalfshell It has to some degree, in that they're willing to say to the public (though not really believing it themselves) that Hubbard was just a guy, and shouldn't be taken totally literally. 

PoisonIvy
PoisonIvy

 @Noah_Miller  @sara That's true Noah, that's what I see as the core problem facing the indies.  They are going to have to put Hubbard in his proper place and rebuild from there.  To my mind that's a Sisyphean (sp?) task.

AussieCase
AussieCase

 @PoisonIvy In my experience, I was somehow made fun of for doing things that initially seemed normal; reading an odd newspaper, or watching on old Pat Broeker VHS scientology event that was no longer "authorized."

 

There is a kind of "cook kid" mentality in Scientology, where if you don't agree then you can't be cool. I think some people buy in more than others, and a lot of Scientologists will ignore the email. Many Scientologists will recognize that talking to NBC will only make things worse.

 

It is not uncommon for Scientologists to think management is too intense or crazy, but then somehow the mental programming of Ron is rights kicks in and it supersedes. Then the rational that management is not following Ron policy gets brought up. This is actually an acceptable form of thinking in Scientology, and it is a tolerated dissent as long as you justify your disagreement using something Ron wrote or said.

 

It is a crazy framwork that constrains your thinking. Marty, and most Indies are still caught in this trap of thinking through the lens that Ron provides. They see the world throught, what Hardeep Singh Kohli described as, an inclusive "philosophy for the stupid."

 

 

exileandcunning
exileandcunning

 @PoisonIvy Yes... well I guess if you get sec checked any time you read any "wog" news, and everyone's snitching on each other, even family members, you would learn to stay away.  Probably people who are determined to question authority would never end up in Scientology to begin with... or they'd have it audited out of them early on, like you said. 

exileandcunning
exileandcunning

 @deElizabethan Yes, I went to the top and clicked "Oldest" instead of newest first, so I could read the older comments.  I figured she probably won't be able to read my response on the site but maybe she'll read it in her email.  Just couldn't leave all those questions hanging with no answer!  (btw if you click on oldest first it is pretty close to the beginning of the comments)

deElizabethan
deElizabethan

 @exileandcunning 

I received you copy of long letter to angelas02 and the system nor I, could find it on on these pages. Just wanted you to know how great a writing it was.

exileandcunning
exileandcunning

 @SvenBoogie He could sell auditing and be against Narconon.  I believe auditing is worthless and probably harmful but I'm not going to get too upset about it, these people are free to get auditing if they want, it's not hurting anyone but them.  But there is no reason why he should be defending Narconon at all, or making excuses for it.  To me there's a big difference.

kimobrien1
kimobrien1

 @deElizabethan  @exileandcunning  @PoisonIvy he has been out long enough to go on Anderson Cooper, GMA, a talk show in germany and more . HE KNOWS...he just does not care . Please stop doing the emotional comparison to " you don't look THAT fat in those jeans " when it comes to him . He is out ...and he is responsible for what comes out of his mouth . Just like the rest of us .  

deElizabethan
deElizabethan

 @exileandcunning  @PoisonIvy   Don't be too hard on him, as he is doing a lot of good for the overall goal. I'd just chalk it up to ignorance on the subject. don't forget he was in a looooong time.

exileandcunning
exileandcunning

 @deElizabethan  @PoisonIvy Oh no... I guess I can't like Marty anymore.  I can see the gray areas about whether the tech is good, but as far as Narconon anything other than 100% opposition is completely indefensible.  

deElizabethan
deElizabethan

 @exileandcunning  @PoisonIvy   Right.  After Tony had a great article about David Love and Marty wrote contrary, did I change my mind some about him and I believed him to still be under the 'influence' a bit.

exileandcunning
exileandcunning

 @deElizabethan  @PoisonIvy He was defending Narconon?!?!   He doesn't know how ineffectual and harmful the NN program is, how the staff is incompetent and on drugs, etc etc??  Wow, I wrote last week that I had a soft spot in my heart for Marty because his blog was the first thing I read about scn, but if he's a Narconon defender, I don't know if I can have any positive thoughts about him anymore.  He seriously thinks that NN is good but that DM's policies fucked it up, not that it was seriously messed up from day one?  Oh no...

deElizabethan
deElizabethan

 @PoisonIvy  True, but not long ago he was praising Narconon in view of what others were exposing on VV.

Yes, he is doing a good job all around for indies and blasts scn, also he helps some people. I read his blog to keep up and have learned a lot.

PoisonIvy
PoisonIvy

 @deElizabethan It seemed to me that he was saying the deaths were a disgrace and he hopes justice is done...but that Narconon would never have tolerated this back in the glory days, etc.  David Miscavige bad, LRH good.  I get weary of this message, but he does take a strong stand against the CO$ manner of response.

deElizabethan
deElizabethan

@PoisonIvy

More -- "I predict that David Miscavige's scorched earth policies will result in the most fatal blow to the Narconon program.   Those policies were evident in Narconon's responses to the program: no cooperation, lie and attack the attacker."

 

Now that's a laugh as he seemed to ignore it all the way and David Love, Anon, and Tony get the credit, not DM policies for that fatal blow.....

 

deElizabethan
deElizabethan

 @PeggyToo  @Sherbet  The average Joe is their public, percentage wise. We are a special crew here and we will keep after them to do better. Yea!

Notice they didn't mention trouble from the scios protesting like last time? That's probably good, anyway what can they say that wouldn't come back at them.

PeggyToo
PeggyToo

 @deElizabethan  @Sherbet

 Any national exposure is a good thing really. It gets people talking and Google'ing. I guess we're a little biased since we already know how horrible Scn is, but for the average Joe it was good.

Sherbet
Sherbet

 @deElizabethan    I agree that it sure wasn't a positive story for narconon!  May people flee from it in droves!

PoisonIvy
PoisonIvy

 @Plutarch  @Sherbet "It's truly pathetic that NBC would portray a quack like that Narconon proponent as an "expert"

 

Agreed.  There are a plethora of "real" experts out there.   It seems like a hat tip to CO$ attorneys.  Rock Center should take a page from Panorama, both the UK and the German versions (that last story about Biggi will not leave my mind.) and grow a pair.  There's "fair", and there's "oh come on, now."

Sherbet
Sherbet

 @Plutarch It didn't seem to be a matter of NBC playing fair.  It smacked of laziness, as if NBC didn't check the source's credentials.

BosonStark
BosonStark

@PeggyToo

David Love really stuck it to the cult, in his last segment, about the success rates. Why NBC doesn't mention that the 75% is just cult propaganda, is beyond me. Putting it in their brochure, does not make it legitimate.

The mega doses of niacin definitely got glossed over, and that young guy that had the unexplained death? Certainly, that could have been his reaction to niacin.

Why do they have to show this fake respect for the ideas of L. Ron Hubbard? They should mention that he's a college flunk out who wrote pulp fiction.

All these agencies that are investigating? Good, but I hope they don't get paid off by Scientology.

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