Trolling Hell: Is the Satanic Temple a Prank, the Start of a New Religious Movement -- or Both?

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The Satanic Temple counters that Gilmore is just jealous. The Church of Satan has grown stagnant and smug, its members contend, and Gilmore fears he's about to be replaced.

"The number of negative dispatches we've put out about the Church of Satan is zero," Mesner says. "But since we started, [Gilmore] has done nothing but write disparaging remarks."

"The Church of Satan does nothing," Brian Werner, the Satanic Temple's first high priest, says. "Their complete inactivity has just caused such an overwhelming amount of complacent consent, not only in the masses but within our own freethinking subculture. The inactivity has led to the complete degradation of everything we built for 40 years under LaVey."

High priesting isn't a full-time gig — the 34-year-old Werner is also a vocalist for Vital Remains, a popular satanic metal band. They tour 200 days a year and are especially big in Latin America. ("The Satanic Hispanics — it's a very niche demographic," he says dryly.)

Werner has identified as a Satanist since his teenage years. He was never a Church of Satan member himself but says he understands other people's disaffection. He got involved with the Satanic Temple out of a desire to be a different, more proactive breed of Satanist.

Zach Black is a 38-year-old sushi chef in Northern California and a longtime Satanist. He started the Satanic International Network, the largest — though not the only — social media site for Satanists. He was a card-carrying member of the Church of Satan for nearly a decade, from 1994 to 2002. For the first few years after he joined, Anton LaVey was still alive. That made all the difference, Black says, and the church was much more "proactive."

Black is one of a group of disaffected ex-Church of Satan members who believe Gilmore was never supposed to become the church's next leader. LaVey wanted to pass the torch to a man named Boyd Rice, an artist and writer who was a close friend, Black says. "But he turned it down. He didn't want to do it. I'm not sure why."

LaVey's estate went to Blanche Barton after she produced a handwritten will, purportedly written by LaVey, bequeathing all his worldly possessions, including the Church of Satan, to her. LaVey's daughter Karla later sued Barton. She and the other LaVey children, Zeena and Satan, received the royalties from LaVey's publications, while Barton took control of the Church of Satan. And then came Gilmore.

"LaVey would roll over in his grave," Black says.

Rice, meanwhile, went in a different direction. For nearly two decades, he was part of Death in June, a British neo-folk band that anti-racist groups have accused of supporting white nationalism. Rice has repeatedly denied being a racist or a Nazi sympathizer, a claim that was not bolstered in 2008, when an old video surfaced of him on a public-access TV show, describing Death in June as a proud "racialist" band.

Similar charges have dogged Gilmore and the current Church of Satan leadership. In his 2007 book, The Satanic Scriptures, Gilmore denies that, writing that while there are "provable biological differences between the races and statistically demonstrable performance levels in various activities," the Church of Satan recognizes "individual merit, and ascribe no value to bloodlines." 

Satanists, he adds, "treasure individualism, hardly something to be gained by goose-stepping en masse down the street."

Mesner says the Church of Satan has a distinctly right-wing, libertarian bent. That's not totally inaccurate: Gilmore thanks Ayn Rand in the introduction to The Satanic Scriptures and writes that LaVey founded his religion in direct defiance of a goopy, '60s culture of liberalism that celebrated everyone as equals.

Mesner considers the Satanic Temple a liberal alternative to the Church of Satan. The fact that its visible leadership skews younger would tend to support that view.

"I do believe the Satanic Temple is going to replace the Church of Satan, and that's why they're acting threatened," Zach Black says. "The church — they're just getting fat and old."

Retorts Gilmore: "The disgruntled people you mentioned in your questions to me have no idea about what is happening amongst our members, because the private affairs of our members are actually private. One earns friends and entrée into private events. That cannot be demanded."

He adds that the church has acted as a true spiritual refuge for members in times of both joy and grief. "I performed a memorable memorial service at a nondenominational funeral home in Greenwich Village in Manhattan that included bikers amongst the mourners, and the motorcycle belonging to the deceased was parked in front, black and gleaming, while his artwork was displayed in the chapel alongside his casket. His family and friends shared their grief, supporting his commitment to Satanism as his life philosophy."

They also do weddings. "Aside from one performed by Anton LaVey at the very beginning of the organization, none of these have been paraded before the media," Gilmore writes. "The happy couples celebrate their love, as you'll have noted from the wedding rite I crafted in my book. They share this with family and friends — not the press."


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46 comments
iSatanist
iSatanist

The SigilofBaphomet.com website and FB pages are from someone who is NOT endorsed by the CoS.  He is a knockoff artist and is ripping people off with inferior products.

I would tell as many as you can from those pages, to buy only CoS-Endorsed products, such as found on www.iSatanist.com.

Sin_Jones
Sin_Jones

This is just a blog, it's not 'news' nor does this qualify as journalism.  How about some fact checking dear?  Sheesh.

rooseveltkitty
rooseveltkitty

After all this, I had to go over to the Satanic Template website to see what they are all about. After reading their 7 tenants - I joined as a member, Outside of Buddhism, this is one of the first churches I've seen that puts compassion and reason at the top of their list.

xaurreaux
xaurreaux

To Religious Rightwingers who now have their shorts in a know over the Satanist monument: you baked this pie, now EAT IT!

philboid
philboid

"He was a card-carrying member of the Church of Satan for more than a decade, from 1994 to 2002."


Maths is hard.

jmmartin
jmmartin

I think the statue is very well done. I have seen Eliphas Levi's and read all of his books. Baphomet has never been explained. Not even Aleister Crowley could do him or it justice. I once made a chart of all the theories about this magnificent creature and ultimately decided it was nothing but a Catholic bugaboo to use in proving accusations that the Templars' inner order worshiped Satan in the form of such a creature. By torture, the RCC elicited "confessions" to that effect. It is at least refreshing that someone at a respected newspaper, the paper that published Andrew Sarris, is taking notice of such obscure things.

Michael Daniel Birnberg
Michael Daniel Birnberg

It's good. Now all the statues and idols and carved things can make their human adulators look as ridiculous and impotent as they should.

dragondagoth
dragondagoth

Are the Satanic Temple a trolling hell, media attention whores, hoaxers or pranksters? Yes. Are they creating a new religious movement? No! As many of the readers are already aware Anton LaVey created a new religion (Satanism) in 1966, and the Church of Satan has since served as the only recognized, authoring voice for Satanism.

Those who claim to be offering something new to Satanism simply are not. They are taking copyright material from the Church of Satan per verbatim, or paraphrasing, and sharing the Church of Satan's material in a shiny new package. Chances are they are also inserting misconstrued ideas of what Satanism is, misinforming the public about Satanism with ideals that are not compatible with Satanism.

Regarding the Satanic Temple, the shenanigans they are pulling off such as; contributing to the problem by building a pedophilic looking statue to be placed next to Christian commandments is not a movement. It is reactionary and silly. Even Brian Werner hinted as much in an interview on Mancow that they could have opted to petition for the removal of the Christian commandments. However, petitioning for the removal would require effort, and they would be one of many asking for its removal, which is not something that would get them the spotlight attention they crave. The "Pink Mass" on Catherine Phelps designed to get back at the WBC's founder Fred Phelps in white knight fashion; however, this had no effect as his (Fred’s) mother (Catherine Phelps) died when he was five. Essentially this was guilt by association, and trolling trolls, another media stint. None of these acts is Satanic.

Moreover, anyone with an active internet connection can navigate to the Church of Satan’s website and see productive Church of Satan members in action, opposed to taking people with a negative agenda, or disgruntled ex-members’ claims that it is not.

Overall, the Church of Satan created this new religious movement nearly fifty years ago. Werner’s actions through the “’Satanic’ Temple” are not Satanic, whether he is willing to admit this or not. Alternatively, he can call what he is doing by another name, as his current actions are not Satanic, and what he is doing is not religious movement.

dragondagoth
dragondagoth

Are the "'Satanic' Temple" a trolling hell, media attention whores, hoaxers or pranksters? yes. Are they creating a new religious movement? No! As many of the readers are already aware Anton LaVey created a new religion (Satanism) in 1966, and the Church of Satan has since served as the only recognized, authoring voice for Satanism. So why aren't the Satanic Temple, and others' who claim to be Satanists such?

Those who claim to be offering something new to Satanism simply are not. They are taking copyright material from the Church of Satan per verbatim, or paraphrasing, and sharing the Church of Satan's material in a shiny new package. Chances are they're also inserting misconstrued ideas of what Satanism is, misinforming the general public about Satanism with ideals that are often not compatible with Satanism.

Regarding the "'Satanic' Temple", the shenanigans they are pulling off such as; contributing to the problem by building a pedophilic looking statue to be placed next to Christian commandments is not a movement. It is reactionary and silly. Even Brian Werner hinted as much in an interview on Mancow that they could have opted to petition for the removal of the Christian commandments. However, petitioning for the removal would require effort, and they would be one of many asking for its removal, which is not something that would get them the spotlight attention they crave. The "Pink Mass" on Catherine Phelps designed to get back at the WBC's founder Fred Phelps would have no effect either as his mother (Catherine Phelps) died when he was five. Essentially guilt by association, and trolling trolls, another media stint. None of these acts are Satanic.

Overall, the Church of Satan created this new religious movement (Satanism) nearly fifty years ago. The acts of the "'Satanic' Temple" are not Satanic, and do not represent the philosophy, or actions of actual Satanists, regardless if Werner will admit to such.


brenda10003
brenda10003

I just think of it as a comic book in 3-D.

sneadh
sneadh

The Satanic Temple carries on the spirit on Anton LaVey.   His church(CoS)  turned into a bunch of loser  posers and wannabes.

Michael Martin
Michael Martin

Anton LaVey's Church of Satan was the original Flying Spaghetti Monster. Satanism is a parody of religion - and a good one, considering how seriously some religionists react to it. I suspect much the same is at work here.

Jaq Andre
Jaq Andre

Joe Neighbor Gene Smithe let's go on an adventure!

wiredancer
wiredancer

Sincere LOL. It is too funny to me to see CoS all riled up about TST- because no one has heard anything about them since Lavey died ... Until The Satanic Temple came along shedding a light on the fact that Satanists even still gather and practice. They claim being content in obscurity and privacy unless someone else steps forward to actually DO something- other than weddings and memorials which is nothing to tout as that is a part of your duty as a religious organization. I perform weddings & memorials too, I would hardly consider myself a brazen activist for doing so.

Truth is... I haven't heard of any of you until The Satanic Temple got my attention enough to make me want to delve deeper into modern Satanism, to see what it has become since my once teenage obsession. Didn't know there was a pompous @sshat proclaiming himself a magus now leading CoS, I (and many others ) didn't know who Shane Bugbee was or Zach Black or any of the countless others who have been working (or not) to make a gouge for themselves with their Satanic views and their art or whatever else. The activism of TST is causing people to ask and answer many important questions about civil/religious liberty on the world stage, debunking negative Satanic stigmas created by Christian crazies and challenging arbitrary authoritive laws and structures that serve to reign over us while shoving their ridiculous "faith" based views upon us in a scary tangible way- into the laws mentioned in the article that TST is fighting against. The Luciferian light has been cast on all of you as a result to take the stage and all I see are a bunch of bickering b1tches who act just like the religious groups we should all be fighting against, trying to take credit and discredit and cry and whine about semantics. Kinda disappointing. You could be using this as a platform for your own causes but... Oh wait, you don't seem to have any to begin with- the impression I am getting anyway, as someone long estranged from satanic culture , with a new piqued interest brought on by the actual WORK (and LULZ) that TST is doing. Many are becoming tuned in, like myself, and want to hear what you have to say too and are finding TST as the only sensible source. The time is now to activate and work together, instead of snivelling away on internet message boards no one has even heard of until recently.

All that aside, interesting article, and I look forward to being involved further with TST in the future.

Hail Satan!

hzan
hzan

I've heard this same garbage trotted out by the CoS for years. You say that "Since Gilmore became High Priest the Church of Satan has been increasingly more active in the media, through interviews, events, published literature and videos, concerts, art galleries, and more." Where?? What?? When?”


Here. This. (Then AND) Now:

http://www.churchofsatan.com/news.php

http://www.youtube.com/user/churchofsatanvideos

https://www.facebook.com/ChurchOfSatanOfficial

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z065cY639XE


The Temple is actively political. How does CoS "promote the activities of individuals"? Financially? With a nice "atta boy"? Tell us exactly, what does the CoS DO?? Don't point to some projects done by people who happen to carry a CoS card. Tell us what the CHURCH has done.


This is a poor comparison. The Church of Satan is apolitical. It has been a group for individuals who agree on a philosophy that identifies them all as Satanists from the start. This leaves each member to choose for themselves which political (or apolitical) alignment that would best suit their needs.


The Satanic Temple and the Church of Satan are two very different entities. So, to try to justify the validity or existence of the Church of Satan with The Satanic Temple is irrelevant and doesn’t hold water. At all.


Active means having a presence in the world and creating change by exercising beliefs, values, etc. It even means to go out and engage in a hobby, opinion, etc.

There are MANY ways to do this.


By going out and responsibly creating, each member of the Church of Satan is extending the presence of the Church of Satan through the values that they stand by that LaVey reinforced from the get-go.

To have validity in your argument, you’d have to redefine what “active” is or find some way that the Church of Satan is self-defeating as an existing organization.


“It's also funny that you claim the CoS has gotten more media with Pete, while in the article here Pete claims the CoS doesn't seek media. You didn't name one specific thing the CoS does. "They promote activities" means nothing. What activities. All I ever hear from them are excuses for not doing anything.


The CoS isn’t interested in trying to create change through attaching a religious label behind what they do.

You can create change in the world without declaring yourself a Satanist (or a Christian, a Buddhist, etc.). Just go out and do it. There are many atheist/secular groups that are working towards legislation to keep the United States government completely secular. Are you under the assumption that attaching a name that would repel most people in this country would make them any more aware of the issue and then align with your cause?

What excuses for not doing anything? You need to really realize that the CoS is user-driven, individualistic, and apolitical. It realizes that you don’t need to have the backing of an organization to go out and influence the world.


“It's also funny that you claim the CoS has gotten more media with Pete, while in the article here Pete claims the CoS doesn't seek media.”


Er....

Media can also come to others as well. I’m sure journalists and networks know how to make a phone call or send out an email.


You have made many statements that have no backing to them. Please back your claims up.

everyonesucks666
everyonesucks666

Wow, the journalistic integrity of this article is ASTOUNDING. 

Shane Bugbee
Shane Bugbee

it is what they do. ivy league word jazz. yeash!

posthumousAl
posthumousAl

These guys just walked in and took Satanism unopposed because Peter Gilmore is clueless, and more power to them. Gilmore tries to keep up a facade of some kind of activity within the Church of Satan, but he still just doesn't get it. He talks about earning friends and entree into alleged private events, but some of us aren't interested in buying our way into his social circle (at the price of $200 a card). What makes them special? Why should any of us desire entree into their world? The answer always seems to be "Lavey", who Gilmore seems to pretend to channel. Lavey is gone, Gilmore is an impotent leader, and it's time to see results in the real world. The Satanic Temple isn't about exclusive invites to Denny's with other self important fools displaying unearned airs of snobbery. The Satanic Temple is actually doing things and having a radical effect on culture. I disavowed my COS membership years ago. Proud to see the Satanic Temple reviving the rebel spirit.

RaulAntony
RaulAntony

First of all, Boyd Rice was never *in* Death in June. He has been a guest musician on some recordings and vice versa but they have always been different entities. 


http://www.discogs.com/artist/49845-Boyd-Rice

http://www.discogs.com/artist/39344-Death-In-June


Secondly, Zach Black's (who's from San Diego, not Northern California) claim that Mr. Rice was "supposed to become the church's next leader" is laughable. No one but Rice has ever confirmed such a statement, and when pressed Rice will refer to a sarcastic joke once told to him by LaVey.


Merlan, if someone went around claiming to be Editor in Chief of the Village Voice, without any third-party verification, would you take them seriously? Even after they claimed they turned it down such a dubious offer? Would you give credit to anyone who did? Think about it.


Are you giving credit to anyone with a public message board? Is that what is credible in today's age?

jtfranklin
jtfranklin

I stopped reading when Shane Bugbee began commenting. The writer could have saved herself some time and simply made stuff up on her own.

Shane Bugbee
Shane Bugbee

Natalia Garcia - I've sent you a message to your facebook "other" box. Their integrity is indeed lacking.

ctpierce
ctpierce

 Its refreshing to see this side of the fences nonsense get some ink, its progress of a sort. 

kukulkan
kukulkan

that is not satan, ._.  the sculpture is baphomet

Keemie Von Doren
Keemie Von Doren

This is so deep. Heck I'd be your gay friday.. Great reading wanna read up moe

LeeLea
LeeLea

beautiful sculpture !!

Anna_Merlan_Voice
Anna_Merlan_Voice

@philboid I blame both my editor and my New Mexico primary school education. 


Fixing that now. Thanks, Philboid. 

alex758
alex758

@dragondagoth 

 //They are taking copyright material from the Church of Satan per verbatim//

Where?  There is no such copyrighted material on their website, nor have they copied anything verbatim.

//
or paraphrasing, and sharing the Church of Satan's material in a shiny new package.//

Where?  Please tell me.  Are you saying that merely using the mythology of Satan in a religious context automatically makes them guilty of stealing the Church of Satan's idea?  Even though the positive archetype of Satan existed well prior to the 1966?

//
misinforming the public about Satanism with ideals that are not compatible with Satanism.//

Not compatible with the Satanism of the Church of Satan, sure, since they reject social Darwinism as an outdated and scientifically incorrect position -- hence why it is a separate organization.  The Church of Satan's view on Satan contradicts (and is not compatible with) the pre-existing Christian notion of Satan, but that is hardly an argument that the Church of Satan is invalid.

//
contributing to the problem by building a pedophilic looking statue//


I think Freud would call this an example of "
Psychological projection".

//However, petitioning for the removal would require effort, //

More effort than raising $25,000 and commissioning an artist to sculpt a statue?

//
which is not something that would get them the spotlight attention they crave//

The hilarious bit being that the Church of Satan has done nothing more in the last few months than write angry interview responses and blog posts decrying them for stealing their mojo, which seems to me a bit easier than funding and building a statue or proactively pursuing legal protection.

//
None of these acts is Satanic.//

In many interviews in the 80s and 90s, Church of Satan representatives said that Satan is the opposer, accuser, one who questions -- that they are Satanists because they oppose the current religious order in its hypocrisy and dominance.  It therefor seems quite ironic that the same organization, now inactive, is being outmoded by a new organization and is responding by saying that they "are not Satanic".  Apparently Satanism means opposition, but ONLY if it is done by the particular organization headed by Peter Gilmore.

//Moreover, anyone with an active internet connection can navigate to the Church of Satan’s website and see productive Church of Satan members in action//

You mean all the musicians and artists they link to and sell stuff for?  Because sure, the Church of Satan seems alright at marketing their member's wares, but they seem all but politically inactive.  Yet LaVey actually *did* perform political activities (getting Satanism to be a recognized religion in the military, performing the first Satanic wedding, going on talk-show interviews to try to explain their beliefs to the public) and *did* have a political agenda (Pentagonal Revisionism).  It seems to me that whereas the Church of Satan once was politically active, they are no longer so, and now have decided that Satanism itself can not be politically active and therefor no other organization that uses politics and Satanism can be legitimate.

//Overall, the Church of Satan created this new religious movement nearly fifty years ago//


Anton LaVey created this new religion movement nearly fifty years ago.  Anton LaVey is dead.  Peter Gilmore isn't even the guy LaVey wanted to succeed him -- that was Boyd Rice, who has since declared the Church of Satan dissolved.

Saying that the Church of Satan has a monopoly on Satanism is saying that Peter Gilmore, by a process of apostolic succession,
has inherited all of his legitimacy.  It's almost Catholic.  And it seems quite ironic, considering that the Church of Satan hosts Carducci's Inno A Satana:

"As Martin Luther

threw off his monkish robes,

so throw off your shackles,

O mind of man,", indeed


hzan
hzan

@wiredancer

It is too funny to me to see CoS all riled up about TST- because no one has heard anything about them since Lavey died ... Until The Satanic Temple came along shedding a light on the fact that Satanists even still gather and practice.

A FEW (of the many) activities and media presences of the Church of Satan AFTER LaVey’s death:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1zsIk6WcNM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uiJsAp82jg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpI_TvJXc84

Hellfire Caves:

You may view our 6-6-06 event held in Los Angeles here and the Walpurgisnacht XLIII A.S. celebration in Dashwood’s Hell Fire Caves may yet be released.

From (http://www.churchofsatan.com/affiliation.php).


“Truth is... I haven't heard of any of you until The Satanic Temple got my attention enough to make me want to delve deeper into modern Satanism, to see what it has become since my once teenage obsession.

So, you’ve been obsessed with Satanism as a teenager yet you haven’t heard of “any of you” until the reactions to The Satanic Temple came out? 

By this I assume that you mean you haven’t heard of the Church of Satan (post-LaVey) until now.


I really don’t buy this because if you were obsessed with Satanism as a teen, then you most likely would have come across The Satanic Bible in any major bookstore (Barnes & Noble) or online (Amazon.com). They are readily available there. You’d pretty much have to have your head in the sand or live under a rock to state that you were actively looking for Satanism and didn’t even come across anything related to the Church of Satan.


“The activism of TST is causing people to ask and answer many important questions about civil/religious liberty on the world stage, debunking negative Satanic stigmas created by Christian crazies and challenging arbitrary authoritive laws and structures that serve to reign over us while shoving their ridiculous "faith" based views upon us in a scary tangible way- into the laws mentioned in the article that TST is fighting against. The Luciferian light has been cast on all of you as a result to take the stage and all I see are a bunch of bickering b1tches who act just like the religious groups we should all be fighting against, trying to take credit and discredit and cry and whine about semantics.


The questions that have been posed have more so been centered around  why there are children involved in these projects, centered around the monument, etc.  and that concern is being aroused at the threat of “Satan Worshipers” trying to put a representation of Satan on a government property. 

I haven’t seen any mainstream media outlet bring up the fact that they’re causing people to ask and answer many important questions about civil/religious liberties as the topic for covering the activities of  The Satanic Temple’s activities.

People don’t see the forest for the trees here. They stop at the word Satan. As I stated before, one can work on raising money to push for secular legislation without a name attached; especially a counterproductive one.  


“You could be using this as a platform for your own causes but... Oh wait, you don't seem to have any to begin with…”

Except that the Church of Satan doesn’t decide the causes for each individual Satanist. Members of the CoS are free to choose whichever cause and political affiliation would best benefit them. To encourage people to gather and fight for this cause and that cause forfeits a sort of individual thinking and decision making that leads to an insincere “dedication.” It simply dulls the blade.

You really need to stop comparing The Satanic Temple and the Church of Satan. They operate differently.


“Many are becoming tuned in, like myself, and want to hear what you have to say too and are finding TST as the only sensible source.


Please show us some statistics here.

I find numbers equating to those who are tuned in and seeing the rubbing of the genitals on a grave site of someone who had nothing to do with Fred Phelps, trying to place a indoctrinary statue on government property, aligning children who are the victims of abuse by superstitious, ignorant religious figures with an organization who uses Satan in their name (as well as an activity book for children of an impressionable age decoding messages that say “audi precis mea; Here my prayer)”, and reinacting a Black Mass ritual at a place with a considerable Catholic presence where merely doing a lecture would have been historical and educationally higher in the position that what The Satanic Temple is doing is NOT sensible.


Here’s a number “In addition to drawing the ire of the Archdiocese of Boston and Harvard University President Drew Faust, the satanic Mass angered drovesof citizens who protested against it. A petition had attracted more than 40,000 signatures at the time of the cancellation.” 

(http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/05/13/black-mass-canceled-on-harvard-campus-amid-furor-but-satanists-and-catholics-carry-on-with-plans-of-their-own/).


And another: “Rhodes scholar Aurora Griffin started a petition and eventually got over 60,000 signatures from students, alumni and faculty in support of banning the service from campus (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2626684/Harvard-club-drops-criticized-satanic-Mass.html).

Now it’s your responsibility to back up your claims. 

RaulAntony
RaulAntony

@posthumousAl What do you consider activity? Since Gilmore became High Priest the Church of Satan has been increasingly more active in the media, through interviews, events, published literature and videos, concerts, art galleries, and more. So do you equate public causes as "active"? When has the Church of Satan ever organized such a thing? It never has, not under LaVey, and not under Gilmore. What the Church of Satan *does* do is promote the activities of individuals who decide to take up such causes, as it always has done. If you're looking for an organization to put on a song and dance for your entertainment, then glad you found your place. That's fine. But remember, it's the Satanic Temple that invited people to a dingy Chinese restaurant, so check your Denny's comments at the door.

posthumousAl
posthumousAl

@RaulAntony Here is a link that has a letter from Boyd Rice claiming he was chosen to take the reigns and describing why he didn't  http://mesikammen.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/church-of-satan-is-dead/  . It may or may not be verifiable that Lavey chose Rice, but Rice's criticisms against the Church couldn't be more accurate. While Gilmore actually puts people down for engaging in real activity, he is one of the online elitists with nothing worth mentioning to his credit: 

Rice wrote,

"At one time, the sycophants and functionaries at the forefront of the CoS may have been called apparatchiks or pencil pushers. Today they are bloggers, whose sole arena of combat is the internet. When they employ “satanic” ideals, it’s in endless squabbles in cyberspace – rarely in real life or the real world. The LaVey I knew abhorred such types, and frequently told me as much."

posthumousAl
posthumousAl

@RaulAntony one thing we're sure of is that Lavey certainly never said that he would pass the reigns to Gilmore, who seems to have no idea what an organization is for to begin with

mariahg7
mariahg7

Says Shane Bugbee, who also claims the film Craigslist Joe stole his remarkable idea. Says Shane Bugbee who says Bill Maher stole the idea for Religuous from him. Says Shane Bugbee, who claims that the Ken Ham/Bill Nye debate idea was stolen from him. Says Shane Bugbee, who seems to spend all his time trying to take credit for other people's work. Now Shane claims he "laid the groundwork" for these guys, whatever that means. Says Shane who claims to tour "annually" in his Satan talk tour. How often has this "annual" event happened? Once? Never?
That's Shane. Google him and see.

wiredancer
wiredancer

@hzan @wiredancer Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post and sharing with me what you view to be big matters among post-Lavey CoS. To me, it just looks like a giant circle jerk over a dead man's legacy adorned in flashy robes. I appreciate theatrics and ritual more than anyone but at this point, I am ready to actually DO something to rage against the multiple injustices pushed upon us all by greedy Christian psychos rather than work to inflate my ego through ritualized grandoise delusions.  


"...I really don’t buy this because if you were obsessed with Satanism as a teen, then you most likely would have come across The Satanic Bible in any major bookstore (Barnes & Noble) or online (Amazon.com)." 


Of course I read the Satanic Bible, I was especially fond of the Satanic Witch. I couldn't afford the $200 membership fee as a teenager but I wished I could. It shaped who I am today in many ways and I greatly appreciate Lavey's work. I just don't see how you guys are doing anything to further what he began, nor is it really a concern of mine. I gained what I needed to from Lavey Satanism and it has nothing to do with anything that has come out of CoS since Lavey passed on.


"You really need to stop comparing The Satanic Temple and the Church of Satan. They operate differently." 


Yeah that is apparent. By 'operating differently', do you mean... that actions speak louder than words and you are heavily endowed in one department but severely lacking in another? (I'm sure that you can figure which is which easily enough, as can anyone who has seen you do nothing of any importance over the years.) 


"I haven’t seen any mainstream media outlet bring up the fact that they’re causing people to ask and answer many important questions about civil/religious liberties as the topic for covering the activities of  The Satanic Temple’s activities."


Are you kidding me? Watch ANY news clip about TST. (for your convenience they have compiled much of their media on their youtube channel) and you will see the talking heads spewing forth innumerable prose about how TST is challenging the structure that Christians think they own. My favorite question that got bounced around is "What IS religion? Who is entitled to special rights due to religion?" It is getting people thinking and talking and turning some heads, as well as highlighting the hypocrisy of Christian church groups, as you pointed out, who came out in droves to protest the Black Mass incident at Harvard prior to doing any research to see it for the historical re-enactment and lecture that it was. It put on display that larger religious groups feel that they can bully anyone who doesn't agree with them and succeed. Much like you do by laying claim to Satanism and coming out of obscurity to shoot down everything that they do.


Wait. Let's back track for a sec. "...As I stated before, one can work on raising money to push for secular legislation without a name attached; especially a counterproductive one."


Why would one not want to have their name/affiliation attached to works they are engaged in? What's wrong with a grand display of Satanist pride? Or is that just you having a problem with the fact that Satanists unaffiliated with your organization are getting attention? 


"Members of the CoS are free to choose whichever cause and political affiliation would best benefit them. To encourage people to gather and fight for this cause and that cause forfeits a sort of individual thinking and decision making that leads to an insincere “dedication.” It simply dulls the blade."


I don't see TST as rallying anyone to do anything. They have clear agendas and causes which they are vocal about and those that get involved do so of their own sacred free will because they identify with what they are doing or see the potential for what it can become. That is a part of the beauty- is that it is still so new and forming, un-littered with outdated stagnant drivel, many sharp blades coming together to sharpen each other as opposed to your 'dull' dull blade analogy.


"...I find numbers equating to those who are tuned in and seeing the rubbing of the genitals on a grave site of someone who had nothing to do with Fred Phelps..."


C'mon. That was hilarious. 


"...aligning children who are the victims of abuse by superstitious, ignorant religious figures with an organization who uses Satan in their name..."


Hey, were you at a S.M.A.R.T convention recently purchasing a tin foil hat? You do not think it is a noble cause to take BACK Satanism from those who soiled it with fictional witch hunts for pedophilia induced orgies and sacrifices? You are ok with most people having a knee jerk reaction to Satanism that relates to molesting and murdering children? As the Church of Satan, you are fine with letting these stigmas carry on instead of actually get your hands dirty to expose all of the lies that lead up to this image? Have fun dancing around in your robes, talking about how cool you are on the internet and being viewed by most people as a a group of irrelevant child molesters. Those aligned with TST will continue to actually rebel against authority granted by oppressive religious groups, play the counter weight that is desperately needed today and have some laughs upon the way. 


...and here I am talking sh1t on the internet just like all of you have been doing forever and I see where it can be appealing, especially if you are passionate about the topic, as I have become about TST & Satanism, once again. I don't claim to be any great oracle on the topic, just someone who has floated along in various occult groups my whole life, always questing for something more, a group I could align with who actually isn't afraid to get their hands dirty and activate against these bumbling Christian idiots who have held the reigns for too long. I am not the only one either... We are finding each other through TST and working together while the rest of you lead a b1tchfest p1ssing contest. One that I will likely end my participation in with this post. :)



AswangBlack
AswangBlack

@RaulAntony @posthumousAl I've heard this same garbage trotted out by the CoS for years. You say that "Since Gilmore became High Priest the Church of Satan has been increasingly more active in the media, through interviews, events, published literature and videos, concerts, art galleries, and more." Where?? What?? When? Gilmore has been tagging along on ST media for the past year. I find it funny that you accuse the Satanic Temple of a "song and dance" when you only mention CoS being "active" in entertainment (even when that's not true). The Temple is actively political. How does CoS "promote the activities of individuals"? Financially? With a nice "atta boy"? Tell us exactly, what does the CoS DO?? Don't point to some projects done by people who happen to carry a CoS card. Tell us what the CHURCH has done. Nothing! It's easy to put down another organization when your own activities are outside of criticism because they don't exist! At least LaVey had a right to sit back on his achievements. Now we have Pete resting on LaVey's achievements. It's also funny that you claim the CoS has gotten more media with Pete, while in the article here Pete claims the CoS doesn't seek media. You didn't name one specific thing the CoS does. "They promote activities" means nothing. What activities. All I ever hear from them are excuses for not doing anything.

RaulAntony
RaulAntony

@posthumousAlHuh? The article leads with a letter unrelated to Boyd's claim. 


And guess what? Boyd Rice is a blogger, he wrote that on his blog, which he maintained for years prior to that claim. His "cyberspace" profile is his most popular media channel. It took the former owner of Mute to smack him upside his head and tell him to wake up and realize that the real world reacts to the internet. 

Anyone who has worked with Rice knows he has a tendency to say one thing, do another, and then talk about how "consistent" he was all along. Those who recognize this move on, until he's completely surrounded by the very sycophants he whines about.

RaulAntony
RaulAntony

@posthumousAl I don't know where you exist, but here in the adult world organizations pass on leadership through the existing administration. By your logic no organization would exist past their second generation.

shanebugbee
shanebugbee

@mariahg7 well, it's not so black and white as stole the idea... frustration that my inspiration doesn't relate to direct payments, yes. it is true, craigs list joe did rip lines from our website and then present a very similar, yet less in every way idea on film.


the creation debate, while not an original idea, was executed by me some 5 years before the debate... we were also interviewing the creation museum months before bill maher as we stayed with the lawyer for the american atheists - so, I'm not sure I said they "stole" the idea, but I was first and being a small creative fish, it is common the larger creative fish eat my ideas often.


I mean, all of my stuff is documented, recorded, filmed, made into books and zines and I've been doing that for 30 years... I have a lot of real books and real live physical work to prove I do. do you?


you are a simple stalkerish moron... really, please do google, compare the timelines and I think you might see, I give birth to a lot of shit that you eat.

RaulAntony
RaulAntony

@wiredancer @hzan "I am ready to actually DO something to rage against the multiple injustices pushed upon us all by greedy Christian psychos"


Are you? What are you waiting for? 


"I just don't see how you guys are doing anything to further what he began..."

"Why would one not want to have their name/affiliation attached to works they are engaged in? What's wrong with a grand display of Satanist pride? Or is that just you having a problem with the fact that Satanists unaffiliated with your organization are getting attention? "


Let's see, there's our work with the Center for Inquiry, American Atheists, ACLU, with numerous court appearances as expert witnesses on Satanism, WikiLeaks,  Electronic Frontier Foundation, fundraisers for the Human Society, donations towards The National Violence Against Women Prevention Research Center, appearances at universities and colleges as guest speakers and presenters on the history and culture of Satanism... that's all I can name of the top of my head. Some of these activities are done by openly Satanic individuals under the banner of the Church of Satan, some not because it would be counter productive to do so. So we're not sending out press releases saying "Hey everyone! The Church of Satan is meeting with such and such and so and so! Someone get a photographer!" No.. because all that'll do is derail the issue at hand. Satanism is a philosophy that is applied to actions in the real world, The Church of Satan itself is not the end goal. You use Satanic principles to further your goals. 


"I don't see TST as rallying anyone to do anything."


It's pretty clear from the article we're commenting on that TST put out casting calls, fliered for their "Black Mass", explicitly posts to their social networks to get people to rally up. One of their campaigns is a "Rally for Rick Scott".


"You do not think it is a noble cause to take BACK Satanism from those who soiled it with fictional witch hunts for pedophilia induced orgies and sacrifices? You are ok with most people having a knee jerk reaction to Satanism that relates to molesting and murdering children? As the Church of Satan, you are fine with letting these stigmas carry on instead of actually get your hands dirty to expose all of the lies that lead up to this image?"


You and I may have different definitions of what is "noble". That aside, it's clear to me that you were born well after the Satanic Panic and the media blitz the Church of Satan went through to successfully fight off those heinous accusations. Since then Peter Gilmore and many of our media representatives have done numerous interviews on CNN, BBC, NPR, PRI, History Channel, New York Times addressing the misconceptions of Satanism long before the role of Lucien Greaves was cast. As LaVey stated to us numerous times, his idea for the Church of Satan was be a cabal of individuals throughout the world that shared a set of common First Principles. He encouraged us to be experts in our fields, to be the best artists, musicians, writers, actors, politicians, doctors, engineers, lawyers, entrepreneurs, teachers, mothers, fathers, that we could be and let those individual accomplishments be the public representation of Satanism. Name one single "civic" or "political" action done by LaVey and the Church of Satan in his time. There weren't any. He hated collectivism, he did not want to organize and rally up people. Doing so would be counter productive because different members would have different goals - all Satanic in principle, but applied differently in the real world. In fact, I would say the number of Church of Satan members who have gone out influenced global causes has increased exponentially since Peter Gilmore's position as High Priest due to his focus on contemporary issues and focus on academics.


I just got back from Palo Alto and had a great time with several engineers, entrepreneurs, executives, and investors. Several in the group are Satanists or are aware of Satanism, and have been since the 90's. The "LaVeyan Satanist" character on HBO's Silicon Valley didn't come from nowhere... I've never met anyone there who thought Satanists were baby-killers. Obviously there's much more work to do to make Satanism a recognized philosophy, but we prefer respect from our accomplishments over sympathy as some victim class.


In my experience, the biggest issue we have is th idea that we're all Goth kids who listen to Marilyn Manson (augh). Every now and then a lunatic makes the news, which we address, and are quickly dismissed after the tabloids get their clicks and CNN gets its weekly ratings. Like I stated earlier, the best way to dispel those misconceptions is by being a master of your craft, and when/if the time is right, declaring yourself a Satanist. It's clear the TST has a different approach, I guess they prefer to be "balls out" and have a "high priest" who grunts about human sacrifices and burning babies. Good luck with that.

RaulAntony
RaulAntony

@AswangBlack @posthumousAl Do you seriously need someone to spell out exactly how a network of liked minded individuals can benefit your own goals and aims? Not sure if trolling or dense...


There are these things called websites. You can find them using another website called Google. It's pretty handy. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=church+of+satan+news


If I scroll through the feed I can see a number of my own accomplishments, which I've achieved with the assistance of fellow CoS members. Let's see... I've got an upcoming performance in NYC coming up, there's a compilation I've been included on that's seen significant support from the CoS, there's the Radio Free Satan network which I personally redesigned from scratch and maintain with a number of Church of Satan members, there's a concert in Brooklyn that I promoted with several Church of Satan performers which was recorded and now available on vinyl... if you poke around you may see some more of my contributions and collaborations, which have assisted me professionally and in turn financially.


All that said, being a member of the Church of Satan guarantees you *nothing*. These are MY accomplishments, MY achievements that *I* am proud of. But I give due credit to the organization that helped me network, promote, and support those goals. You get from our organization what you put into it. If that concept frightens you, we do not want you. 


Brush up on your reading compression and context clues. Peter Gilmore is referring to media publicity of private events (wedding, funerals, etc.) Some individuals may choose to publicize such things, but we don't force our members to do so. I know I didn't when I had my Satanic Wedding, officiated by the Church of Satan. Use that Google tool to see photos of a Church of Satan wedding at the Giger Museum in Switzerland. Yes, the Church of Satan releases choice material to the media, including the 6/6/6 High Mass, rituals in the Black House North to a documentary, and Hell Fire Caves rituals. The CoS has been constantly fielding requests from the media to get commentary on one issue or another. It's not uncommon that while I'm with Peter Gilmore and Peggy Nadramia that an e-mail or phone call is trying to interrupt. All of this well before Doug Mesner was tea bagging graves.






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