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Transportation

Bill to Ban Horse & Carriages Met with Unbridled Anger

By Michael Clancy, Friday, Dec. 7 2007 @ 9:01AM
Comments (60)
Categories:


Photo by Zesmerelda via Flickr

By John DeSio

The clip-clop of equine feet through midtown Manhattan would be a thing of the past if City Council Member Tony Avella gets his way. But opponents of the council member say he has no horse sense.

Avella will hold a press conference on Saturday to announce a bill that would ban horse-drawn carriages, hansom cabs if you’re olde tyme-ish, from all City streets. The bill will be officially introduced in the City Council next Wednesday, and represents the first time any elected official has pushed for an all-out ban on perhaps the City’s most famous tourist trap.

For animal rights activists, Avella’s bill cannot be passed soon enough. Edita Birnkrant, spokesperson for the non-profit Friends of Animals, said there has been discussion of simply reforming the industry in the past. Such reforms, she added, would offer only cosmetic changes to a barbaric practice. “There’s no way to make it better,” said Birnkrant, calling horse-drawn carriages “horrible” and “cruel.” “It’s time to get it out of the City.”

Not so, says the horse and carriage industry.

“This is just a cheap publicity program he is running on the backs of these horses,” said Carolyn Daly, spokesperson for the Horse & Carriage Association of New York “He should be ashamed.” Avella has aligned himself with extremists, said Daly, knows nothing about horses and does not truly care for the animals, only his political career. “This is not about the horses,” said Daly. “This is about Tony Avella. He’s the worst kind of elected official.”

The genesis of Avella’s bill came two years ago, when he proposed limiting horse drawn carriages to Central Park and the surrounding streets. That proposal went nowhere, but Avella has decided to branch out to a full ban in part due to safety concerns for motorists. When he drives next to horses in Manhattan he often worries that something bad will happen. Will the horse move towards the car? Will it buck? Will he accidentally strike the horse? But the animal rights aspect weighs on Avella, too. The council member implied that the mistreatment of horses is inherent in the industry. “It’s just time to say, ‘enough is enough.’ We’re better as a society today,” said Avella.

“He’s just making stuff up as he goes along,” said an enraged Daly, who dared Avella to find a mistreated or abused horse among the 220 licensed by the City for use with 68 licensed carriages. “He’s not going to find one.” She said that veterinarians and the ASPCA regularly visit the horses, and they don’t seem to have a problem with the treatment of the animals. And the industry’s record with the Department of Consumer Affairs, she said, is spotless. In fact, Daly said that one year ago Avella visited the stables himself and proclaimed them, and the horses within, to be in great shape. “If a horse is in bad shape, it’s not working,” she said.

“The more you know about him, the more I feel like I could hate him,” said Cornelius Byrne, owner of Central Park Carriage, said of Avella. Byrne’s own personal tragedy has played a major role in Avella’s current push. In September he lost Smoothie, a ten-year-old mare, after the horse was distracted by a snare drum playing nearby. The horse panicked, lurched forward, struck a tree and died. Following the incident, animal rights activists held a vigil for Smoothie, to which Byrne was not invited. “There was nobody more sorrowful to have lost that horse than me,” said Byrne.

Byrne, whose family has been in the business for about 50 years, said there is a certain significant level of insincerity within the ranks of the animal right extremists that make up the opposition to horse drawn carriages. They do not mourn Smoothie or any other horse, he said, but are actually happy to see tragedy befall an animal so long as it might advance their argument. “They think its going to help prove their extremist, radical points,” he said. Those activists might have mental health problems, said Byrne, but Avella should know better. “He’s only doing this to get his name in the paper.”

The economy plays a major role in this horse drawn argument, with Avella and others stating that carriage business is down, in large part due to ethical concerns over the use of the animals. That, said Avella, is why the Horse & Carriage Association of New York is pushing for a fare increase. Nonsense, said Daly, who noted that the industry has not seen a fare increase since 1989. “The taxi fares have been raised 15 times during that same time span,” she said, pointing out that the cost of feed, for example, has gone up roughly 400 percent during that same time span. “A raise is perfectly reasonable.”

And plenty of people are still riding these hansom cabs, said Daly, noting that right now during peak carriage season wait times for rides can run longer than an hour. Both sides lay claim to the intents of New York’s tourists, with Birnkrant stating that numerous tourists her group has spoken to oppose the carriage industry, and that many of those tourists have signed the petition available at the website of the Coalition to Ban Horse Drawn Carriages. “We don’t need the horse drawn carriages for tourists,” said Birnkrant. “Most tourists don’t care about it. It won’t make a difference.”

“We’re a landmark,” said another horseman, Ian McKeever of Shamrock Stables. “We’re just as important as the Empire State Building or the Plaza Hotel.” McKeever said he resents any claims that he, or anyone else in his business, does not care about the horses under their care. He recounted stories of waiting with animals through the night to ensure their health, and pointed out that sick, decrepit horses do not do his business any good. These animals, said McKeever, live wonderful lives. “Nobody cares more for my horses than myself.”

McKeever and Daly both said that Avella might know the work of the carriage industry better if he listened to his own constituents. Daly said one-fifth of the industry’s close to 300 drivers live in Bayside, right in the heart of Avella’s Queens district. A ban on hansom cabs would cost them their jobs. But more than just those drivers would suffer, said Daly. They would be out of jobs, but so would the men and women who deliver feed, put shoes on horses, and clean the stables. “He should be looking after his own people in Bayside,” said McKeever, “not these extremists in Manhattan.”

Both Avella and Birnkrant are hopeful the bill will pass, though circumstances paint a bleak picture for the bill’s immediate future. The council member noted that both Mayor Michael Bloomberg and City Council Speaker Christine Quinn have indicated a reluctance to pass any ban, mostly due to the importance of carriages to the City’s tourism trade. Without Quinn on his side Avella will have an extremely hard time rallying fellow council members to his side, a task made even harder due to his pariah status in City Hall. Still, whether it happens today or down the line, Avella is confident that eventually horse-drawn carriage rides will be a thing of the past. “They’re not appropriate for City traffic anymore,” said Avella. “It may take some time, but eventually its going to happen.”

Though Daly and others see Avella acting on the issue to boost his own mayoral ambitions, Avella insists he is only looking out for the welfare of the horses. There was certainly a time when such transportation was necessary but today horse-drawn carriages are only in the way, he said. Smoothie was spooked by the sound of a drum, added Avella, who wondered how many more similar accidents could happen down the line given the thousands of other potential noisemakers that fill midtown Manhattan.

Birnkrant agreed. A City environment, especially the biggest City in the world, is no place for wild creatures like horses. ““When you look beyond the surface and the façade and charm, it’s crazy,” she said. You could hardly create a more hostile environment for a horse than midtown Manhattan.”

Whatever the objections, and personal ire, the City’s horsemen have for Avella and his bill he insists that New Yorkers are on his side, and passing his ban is the only humane thing to do. “There’s a reason horse-drawn carriages don’t exist anymore in society, especially in midtown traffic,” said Avella. “I hope we can pass this before we have more accidents.”

He added, ““I hate to use the pun, but I think it’s time to put them out to pasture.”

Avella is likely running against Quinn and others for mayor in 2009, and Byrne made it crystal clear that he and others in his industry will take tremendous pride in costing him votes down the line.

“He needs to be exposed for what he is, a terrible person. He’s a scoundrel, an opportunist,” said Byrne. “If he runs for mayor, I’ll do everything I can to be part of what makes him lose.”

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  • Carolyn Daly
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Comments (60)

Eric says:

Inserted missing clause in first sentence

Byrne, if anyone has proved to be psychotic, or at least a complete idiot, it's you. No one cares more about the interests of animals than animal rights activists. It is what they do, because they are compelled by their compassion for nonhuman animals. Do you think they are fighting for the rights of animals because they hate animals? Do human rights activists fight for human rights because they hate humans? I mean, seriously. Think about what you say before you speak.

Is there profit to be had in promoting the interests of animals? In saying that their interests deserve equal consideration? That their interests aren't something we can violate simply because someone has built a profitable business on their backs? Clearly you think this position is extremist, so where's the value in holding it? There is none.

ARAs are alienated, treated like garbage (thanks for proving that point) and most of us do this as volunteers, simply because we care. And what do we get? Some animal exploiter completely lost on the concept saying that ARAs "are actually happy to see tragedy befall an animal so long as it might advance their argument." You are simply insane if you think that this is true.

Posted On: Friday, Dec. 7 2007 @ 9:55PM
Jill Weitz says:

It's no surprise that the carriage horse industry is resorting to personal attacks against Council Member Tony Avella, the only Council Member to date who has the courage and moral conviction to stand up to this powerful special interest group that has been protected for far too long by city leaders. When the facts aren't on your side, then there's nothing left to do but...be extreme.

Well, let's talk about the facts:

From 1994-2007, there were 26 accidents involving horse-drawn carriages (Two of these were unreported. How many other accidents have gone unreported?) Besides the fact that 5 horses died (and an additional 4 horses collapsed and died from other causes) 31 people were injured. We never hear about this, do we? For example, in 2006, a 71-year-old bicyclist suffered a broken hip when a horse ran wild in Central Park. Also in 2006, a carriage driver was ejected when a horse spooked in midtown and galloped into a station wagon. Three people were injured, one critically. The horse was pinned under the car and had to be euthanized. In 2003, 2 female tourists and the carriage driver were dumped out of a carriage and injured. In 2000 a carriage horse bucked, tipping over a carriage and injuring a family of 4. The horse then took off through the park heading straight for a hot dog vendor who had to jump out of the way. "Thank God no one was killed," said the driver, according to the NY Daily News. In 1999, a runaway horse and carriage struck a car and jumped the sidewalk, where it knocked down a 70-year old man and a 68-year-old woman. The woman was pinned under one of the horse's rear hooves. Also in 1999, a cab driver suffered head and neck injuries after a horse bolted, and got stuck between a parked car and the cab. In 1997 a runaway horse ran over a tourist, knocked her to the ground and dragged her for a few feet. The driver allegedly took off with the horse, but was later apprehended by police, according to NY Daily News.

An 1800 lb bolting horse is a weapon, as we've seen over and over again. Horses take off in flight when they are afraid because they are prey animals. And there is a lot to be afraid of if you're a horse in the middle of a city.

How much longer does the carriage horse industry--and the city council and mayor-- expect us to look the other way and pretend that this is a quaint, harmless industry?

Other major cities, such as Toronto, London, and Paris, as well as smaller cities in the US, have banned horse-drawn carriages. According to Ms. Daly's logic, the leaders and people who supported bans in these cities must all be extremists.

Posted On: Saturday, Dec. 8 2007 @ 12:03AM
shan dene says:

As an animal lover, I whole heartedly support Mr. Avila.It is very sad to see these horses working like this. What can I do to support this legislature? If anybody is organizing a protest I would love to be there.
shan

Posted On: Saturday, Dec. 8 2007 @ 7:09PM
Matt says:

Ban Horse Drawn Carriages!!

Posted On: Saturday, Dec. 8 2007 @ 10:40PM
ed says:

you want to talk about extremists? I have been personally threatened with bodily harm by horse carriage operators in central park for merely telling tourists about the miserable lives that the horses live. so who are the extremists? the horse carriage industry is run by bullies and thugs. they care about their horses as much as a slave driver cares about his slaves.

Posted On: Saturday, Dec. 8 2007 @ 11:15PM
Jerry Wade says:

Mr. Avella,
Thank you for doing this.
How can I help?
Jerry Wade

Posted On: Saturday, Dec. 8 2007 @ 11:34PM
Mark says:

Attention animal all animal extremists and fanatics: get a life! you are lonely, pathetic people and we feel sorry for you. BUT, having said that, it does not excuse your sorry attempts to make the carriage horses your life. They have a good life and are clearly well cared for. Move on to something meaningful like the soldiers fighting for our freedom in Iraq. Care about them for a change.

Posted On: Saturday, Dec. 8 2007 @ 11:46PM
Mike says:

I am a voting Democrat that works everyday in Central Park. I think there should be a ban on cars in the park not horses. There are roads that go through the park thet do not effect the people exercising, children playing, dogs walking and tourists riding the horses. What did the horses do wrong? They were here before the cabs and do not add to global warming. Removing the horses will just allow traffic to move faster and hence more accidents. I say regulate the horses ban the cars. Anyone have the numbers on cars injuring people in the park last year?

Posted On: Sunday, Dec. 9 2007 @ 12:13AM
Anonymous says:

You guys do know that all technology we have today, couldn't exist without the use of animals.

BTW, industrialisation was the worst thing that happened for horses. Seeing there numbers dwindle after the invention of the tractor and the tank, make the horse almost endangered.

So NOT using horses has been a great cause of horse population shrinking.

Posted On: Sunday, Dec. 9 2007 @ 9:57AM
Jill Weitz says:

Yes, you can call your council member and the mayor. If you don't live in NYC, contact mayor bloomberg and speaker christine quinn. Ask them to SUPPORT Council Member Avella's bill to ban horse-drawn carriages (no bill number yet), and to OPPOSE Council Member Gennaro's bills--Intro 652 and 653, which would raise the fares of carriage rides and contract out inspections to a third party.

To find your ocuncil member or speaker christine quinn if you live outside nyc: http://www.nyccouncil.info/constituent/

To contact the mayor:
Office of Mayor Michael Bloomberg
City Hall
New York, NY 10007
Phone: 212-788-3000 (ask for comment line) To fax a letter: 212-788-2460

Posted On: Sunday, Dec. 9 2007 @ 10:35AM
Elizabeth Forel says:

I hope everyone knows that PR flak Carolyn Daly is paid BIG BUCKS by the carriage trade to bad mouth anyone who speaks out against this inhumane industry. This money could be better used to upgrade the stables or for better quality feed and hay for the horses – or perhaps to hire someone to wash them once in a while so they do not suffer urine and feces stains on their bodies. I challenge the industry to fire Daly and go one on one with us in the press.

Daly gets paid for lying, exaggerating and calling people names - she is a class act and the worst kind of parasite. Her behavior is what gives the PR industry a bad name. And some of the media – this case the Village Voice - prints her comments without any proof because libeling an elected official is fair game. She uses extremist tactics supporting an extremist industry that thinks it is OK to work 19th century horses in 21st century traffic. But if Daly got a better job offer, she would take it. I wonder what her new tactic will be now that the ASPCA has come out in support of a ban. BTW, Carolyn – I hope you and your cronies liked the press conference yesterday with all the media coverage and all the people who came out to support it.

A word about Council Member Tony Avella – if anyone thinks that he is doing this for political reasons because he is running for mayor – think again. This is a very courageous move that could hurt him in the long run. Although it is a position that is neither “safe, nor politic” – he is doing it because his conscience tells him that it is the right thing to do – something apparently Daly and her ilk do not understand.

And another news flash to Daly – I recently reported two different white horses to the ASPCA – one was extremely thin; the other had a severe limp. They were both from West Side Livery. So your challenge to CM Avella that he will not find a mistreated horse has been answered by me - and that was just in the last month. And as for the industry’s record being spotless with the Department of Consumer Affairs – I guess Daly failed to read the audit, which is available on the NYC Comptroller’s web site. http://www.comptroller.nyc.gov/

Carolyn: the truth will set you free. You should try it once in a while.


Posted On: Sunday, Dec. 9 2007 @ 10:45AM
Amy Grand says:

So let me get this right Elizabeth Forel. Tony Avella and your extremists group of animal crazies can verbally bash the carriage industry as much as they want and make up lie after lie, but you resent that they are hiring professionals to defend themselves? Interesting, but as usual from your tiny group of losers not the least bit reality based. And don't you get paid big money to work for the Housing Authority and collect taxpayer money while you use government resources to work on your personal agenda of exploiting animals. Hmmmm, maybe the City should check your work email and computer just to make sure no work rules are being broken. Also, just a helpful tip... get a new hairdresser or buy a comb.

Posted On: Sunday, Dec. 9 2007 @ 2:22PM
Jill Weitz says:

Carolyn Daly's unprofessional tactics only hurt her and the business she is protecting.

Posted On: Sunday, Dec. 9 2007 @ 4:39PM
Elizabeth Forel says:

The carriage trade in what ever form they take must resort to personal, libelous attacks and lies to try to further their cause. But this can only hurt them . Their arguments cannot stand on their own merit so they have to wage personal attacks on me such as criticizing my hair – how very silly, pathetic and irrelevant. They do not understand honesty and ethics and just assume the work I do on this issue is done during the day and must be done on company time - it is not - but that is not their business. It is called projection – because this is probably what they would do and they just assume everyone is like they are. All of us who care about these horses have sacrificed our personal lives for this cause – but this is also not their business and something they would never be able to understand. After all – isn’t it they who tell us to get a life?

I guess it is no wonder Holly Cheever, DVM wore a bullet proof vest when she visited the stables - these are the kinds of people we are dealing with. They spy, stalk us and investigate our backgrounds – they try to find out where we live and where we work; they make scurrilous remarks about us; they infiltrated the press conference on Saturday - and are not above making false allegations about anyone. Yesterday, at least two of them followed us around with cameras and recording devices. We can argue on our own terms about issues and not resort to personal attacks - so why does the carriage industry need to hire a professional to fight for them. And why do they need to resort to personal attacks.

Posted On: Sunday, Dec. 9 2007 @ 7:09PM
Dave says:

To the guy who said we should support the troops in Iraq...Since when does being a supporter of animal rights mean that you don't care about the troops in Iraq? Fighting for our freedom?! Actually this war has impeded on our freedoms!

Posted On: Sunday, Dec. 9 2007 @ 10:42PM
Kevin says:

60,000 horses are slaughtered in this country each year for food that goes to overseas markets. This is where all you self proclaimed animal rights morons will be sending these horses, not to some nice farm to live out the rest of their lives. If you idiots really cared about these horses you would oppose this bill. But of course this is not about the horses at all, it is all about boosting your own egos by thinking you are standing up for something. Nor do you extremists are about the hundreds of working class new yorkers that this bill would put out of work. Don't you limousine liberals have anything better to do???

Posted On: Monday, Dec. 10 2007 @ 7:16AM
Linda Marcus says:

Does anyone know exactly where the carriage horses are retired? I want the truth... the names of the farms and their addresses.

Posted On: Monday, Dec. 10 2007 @ 10:07AM
Jill Weitz says:

The horses are taken to New Holland Auctions in Pennsylvania where they are exposed to killer buyers. The carriage horse industry's claim that they are all retired to farms is a lie.
Animal advocates have a plan and are raising money to retire the horses to sanctuaries, not sell them to slaughterhouses, as the industry currently does.

As Linda Marcus has requested, show us the proof that they are retired to farms. Show us the proof that they get 4 months rest in a pasture. A month ago the industry claimed that the horses got three months rest. Back up your statements with facts.

Posted On: Monday, Dec. 10 2007 @ 10:41AM
Fiona says:

The carriage horse industrys' claim that CM Avella is using this cause to promote himself is ridiculous! He could win way more votes and publicity and make his life so much more cushy by choosing to support any other bill and not this one! Those of us who vote know that CM Avella has long been a champion of the underdog, quite literally and he has supported many animal friendly legislations in the past. He is doing this because he cares about animals not about publicity and certainly not about winning friends and influencing people.

Posted On: Monday, Dec. 10 2007 @ 11:33AM
B Enos says:

My family was visiting in September and the day we went to Central Park was the day that the horse Smoothie was injured. Apparently she was spooked by musicians, bolted, and crashed into a tree. We saw her lying on the concrete, bloodied and scared, while medics felt for her pulse and surveyed her injuries. This accident later resulted in Smoothie's death. Yes, these accidents have been somewhat infrequent but accidents DO happen and the longer that carriage horses are on the street, the more traffic will increase, the more these accidents will occur.

Anyone who says that Animal Rights Activists or CM Tony Avella are extremists, exploiting animals solely for personal gain or supporting this ban just to belong to a cause has no idea what compassion truly is. For activists, ensuring the welfare and safety of these animals becomes our lives. This planet houses more animals, plants, and living species than just humans. When will people realize that animals are NOT FOR HUMAN USE?

And although it would be terrible that an end to this antiquated tradition would put many out of work, many industries have wrongly been built on the backs of others, not only through animal abuse but through human abuse, sweatshop labor, and SLAVERY. Activists and people like CM Tony Avella advocate for these animals to be able to observe the same rights and freedoms that we as humans aspire to have.

In a country that allegedly prides itself on seeking freedom, rather than bending others to our will, we should try to expand that model of freedom to EVERYONE, not just in abandoning the continued exploit of Iraqis in the "war on terror", but in allowing horses and all animals to live their lives freely, unencumbered by human reign.

Posted On: Monday, Dec. 10 2007 @ 2:58PM
Sharon Files says:

Wow. As an outsider, I must say that the animal rights activists are clearly the winners not only of this argument (it's dangerous and cruel, let's just admit this), but of having some common decency! Get a grip, people. The people defending those profiting off of the horses are really ugly, and I mean on the inside. They need to work on themselves.

Posted On: Monday, Dec. 10 2007 @ 6:11PM
Susan says:

The fact that the Village Voice is enabling this kind of fanaticism by the horse carriage business hurts its credibility. I'm surprised that it would publish an article like this. Can't imagine the NY Times doing this or any other legitimate paper.

Posted On: Monday, Dec. 10 2007 @ 9:25PM
Donny says:

According to equine veterinary experts who inspected the horses and stables on behalf of the ASPCA, conditions in NYC cannot be corrected in a way that would make the industry safe and humane. Following is the trailer to the movie BLINDERS about this controversy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31GgmMsFzOM

Posted On: Tuesday, Dec. 11 2007 @ 9:25AM
Roxanne Delgado says:

Horses are not mean for NYC streets. It reflects poorly on us. I see them riding alongside cabs, tour buses, city buses, trucks etc. it is inhumane. Speaker Quinn should not support this industry. Most of their members don't support her lifestyle and would ban her from the ST. Patty parade. IT shoulds that does those that don't have compassions for all living things do tend to discriminate as well.

Please support this ban not only for the horses' sake but for humans' sake. show that NYC does care!!!!

Posted On: Tuesday, Dec. 11 2007 @ 5:44PM
Khursh Mian says:

“True human goodness, in all its purity and freedom, can come to the fore only when its recipient has no power. Humankind’s true moral test, its fundamental test (which lies deeply buried from view), consists in its attitude towards those who are at its mercy: animals. And in this respect humankind has suffered a fundamental debacle, a debacle so fundamental that all others stem from it."
—Milan Kundera, The Unbearable Lightness of Being
"Carriage horses are a tradition” So was child labor, slavery, the subjection of woman. All these were traditional. Is tradition a logical reason to continue anything? "These industries are profitable and add revenue to the city" So was child labor, slavery, the subjection of woman. Is being profitable a logical reason to allow an industry that exploits another being, another earthling to continue that exploitation? As Milan Kundera has quipped, “The struggle of man against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting”. Least we all forget!
“A ban on hansom cabs would cost them their jobs. But more than just those drivers would suffer, said Daly. They would be out of jobs, but so would the men and women who deliver feed, put shoes on horses, and clean the stables. “He should be looking after his own people in Bayside,” said McKeever, “not these extremists in Manhattan.” Same argument African slave traders made in defense of slavery. Interesting, is it not? Watch the movie, out now on DVD, “Amazing Grace”. The movie is about William Wilberforce (24 August 1759–29 July 1833), not only was he a leader in the abolition of slavery in the British colonies, he was one of the founders of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals in the United kingdom.
Ask yourself this, you were born in the deep south, let us say in the early 1800’s, and someone asked you what you thought about slavery what do you propose your answer would be? You were born in a society, a culture that reinforced the racist view. All around you were signs and testimony to the correctness of African slavery. It would be reasonable to conclude that you too would not have a problem with African slavery. Your mother and father benefited from it. It put food on your plate, clothes on your back, and shelter over your head. Not to mention, my mother and father are the kindest, sweetest “most Christian” people around. They care for their slaves. If the slaves were mistreated, that would hurt our profitability. We treat them well. We give them shelter, in Africa they would be suffering the elements and dying of hunger and be food for the lions and bears, Oh my. We are the true humanitarians, not the slave trade abolitionists! They are EXTREMESTS!!!! Sound familiar anyone?
Those of us, who are sufficiently educated, see through such self serving views. Why can we not see the arguments used to subjugate other species of animals for what they are? Self serving! Cruelty is cruelty!
As the French Nobel Laureate, Romaine Rolland wrote in his Jean-Chrisophe, “"What have I done to you? Why do you hurt me?" He could not bear to see the most ordinary sights that he had seen hundreds of times… To a man whose mind is free there is something even more intolerable in the sufferings of animals than in the sufferings of men. For with the latter it is at least admitted that suffering is evil and that the man who causes it is a criminal…If any man were to refer to it, he would be thought ridiculous.—And that is the unpardonable crime. That alone is the justification of all that men may suffer. It cries vengeance upon God. If there exists a good God, then even the most humble of living things must be saved. If God is good only to the strong, if there is no justice for the weak and lowly, for the poor creatures who are offered up as a sacrifice to humanity, then there is no such thing as goodness, no such thing as justice.

Posted On: Tuesday, Dec. 11 2007 @ 11:56PM
Anita Gerami says:

As the owner of a NYC stable and 25 horses,i must clarify the handful of loud extremists didn't have the nerve to bring thir plight to Central Pk,on Dec 8th,why?Caues there were thousands of people on line to board our carriages.As for T.Aveela,he is a lying fraud that never been in a stable or conducted his own investigation.Even though the aspca,dept of health and the mayor's office stated there were no issues with animal cruelty in this service,they choose to ignore it.If they are so sure that the animals are mistreated,lets challenge it,make a actual accusation and write your real name with it,and let the authories decide.

Posted On: Wednesday, Dec. 12 2007 @ 9:00AM
Susan Davis says:

The NYC environment is abusive to horses, any good horseman knows that a horse's first instinct is to flee from anything unfamiliar, that includes loud or soft noises, people, smells and sounds. NYC carriage horses are subject to multiple unfamiliar elements that make them want to flee every single day, but they can't because they are either tethered outside or inside a stall where their hind hooves hang over the urine gutter, or in the stalls that have no gutter they actually stand in their own urine. The owners of these horses should be horse-whipped for claiming they treat the horses humanely when any fool can see that just isn't so. Only a handful of the old-timers give their horses adequate care. Regardless of quality of care, the environment will always be abusive, therefore a ban is the only answer. To you people who think the industry cares about their own horses, why don't you ask them why then they have sent countless of these horses to auctions where killer buyers slaughter them in a horribly slow death?!? Would you send your pet to slaughter if you loved your pet? Why do drivers make the horses stand in puddles of water that can cause hoof rot and thrush when they can move the horse to drier area? This is not hidden abuse, open your eyes! Don't be ignorant, ignorance shows!

Posted On: Wednesday, Dec. 12 2007 @ 12:20PM
Susan Davis says:

ok, Anita,
I've been inside a stable or two, you know what I saw? I saw horses in stalls too small to be able to turn around, and not long enough to accomodate them, so that their back hooves hung over the urine gutter! And in the ones that had no urine gutter or "shit-shoot" (that is what they are called by industry)the horses stood in their own urine! Any good horseman knows what that does to a horse's hooves! Most of the abuse I've witnessed is not hidden at all. Why would a driver force his horse to stand outside Central Park in a puddle of standing water when there was dry concrete in front and back of horse?!? I'll tell you why, because only a handful of the old-timers care about the horses, the rest are just there because it's a job! The NYC environment is abusive to horses regardless of the quality of care!
And because of this, the Ban is the only humane solution! Before you accuse someone of lying Anita, you should clean up your industry's mess!

Posted On: Wednesday, Dec. 12 2007 @ 1:28PM
Edita says:

Anita Gerami is well aware that the ASPCA fully supports Avella's bill to ban the industry, so her claims in the previous post hold no weight. They are the "authority" on the horses, they've been in the stables, and they've made their decision.
The audit of the industry conducted by the NYC Comptroller's office also revealed the mistreatment of the horses-this is a documented fact.
The "extremist" label is getting a little old, isn't it? Are the 15,000+ tourists (from all over the world) and New Yorkers near Central Park who signed our petitions extremists?
Are the people of London, Paris, Toronto and Bejing (and many US cities) extremists for banning the horse-drawn carriage industry?
Of course not, they're simply compassionate people who value respect for animals.
What's extreme is the viewpoint that animals should have to suffer any indignities that humans wish in order to line their pockets.
The reason we didn't "take our plight" to Central Park is because it was not the appropriate place for this press conference-City Hall was. As you well know, we had a large turnout of people and media. It was "extremely" successful.

Posted On: Wednesday, Dec. 12 2007 @ 1:48PM
Roxanne Delgado says:

I am very disappointed that the Village Voice,supposedly a free form and alternative newspaper, would publish such an one-side article. More shocking is that they would side with an industry whose members oppose alternative lifestyles. it shows that discriminations has no boundaries. Are you really shock that an industry that supports animal cruelty and inflicts hardships on these horses also discriminates against alternative lifestyles. Shame on Quinn for supporting those that did not elect her and are homosexual haters.
PLEASE HAVE A HEART. Support the ban on horse-drawn carriage. Shame on Village voice. Next they will support Pat Robertson.

Posted On: Wednesday, Dec. 12 2007 @ 9:30PM
Roxanne says:

Village voice - free form and alternative newspaper? Next you will support Pat Robertson. this one-sided article reflect poorly on the Voice. shame on you to support an industry whose members mostly are homosexual haters. does this surprise you? those that inflict cruelty are not only cruel to animals but to other humans as well. the voice really need to do a followup on this article. AS one of its reader i was really turn off by this article

Posted On: Thursday, Dec. 13 2007 @ 12:32AM
amar says:

elizabeth forrel is a lying and totally misinformed extremist. many of the things she has said on television and in print are untrue and can be proven to be untrue. which means that the carriage industry now has enough evidence to sue her for lible and slander. so keep on talking elizabeth and t. avella, you will not only prove to all of nyc that you are out of your minds, but you just may make a lot of carriage drivers very rich people!

Posted On: Friday, Dec. 14 2007 @ 5:23PM
rand says:

There is no excuse for maintaining horse-drawn carriages in NYC. Modern cities are no place for horses, and Paris, London, and Beijing, among others, have banned carriages. It is only a matter of time until there is a human fatality resulting from a spooked runaway horse--already there have been injuries. If you want to help end this inhumane and dangerous "tradition" contact your councilmember and ask him or her to sign on as co-sponsor of Intro 658, to ban carriages in NYC, introduced by Council Member Tony Avella.

Posted On: Saturday, Dec. 15 2007 @ 2:55PM
Susan says:

To Amar,
since those making their livings off the back of often sick or old animals have been lying to the public for eons, it is no surprise that you would try to direct the accusations away from yourselves and onto innocent parties. It is you who needs to be concerned about lawsuits!

Posted On: Monday, Dec. 17 2007 @ 11:24AM
Steve says:

The horses were taken out in the storm this weekend and in the sleet storm late last week. The drivers wore heavy jackets and I saw one guy with goggles. But the horses wore nothing. Not only was it against the law to go out in adverse weather conditions, but you didn't even have the decency to protect the horses. It's sad that you can't feel the pain of these animals. And how cowardly to exploit a powerless animal.

Posted On: Monday, Dec. 17 2007 @ 10:58PM
Cee says:

Horse drawn carriages are outdated & inhumane period. It's that simple. One look at these tired, depressed horses that have to cart tourist after tourist around in the most horrid weather conditions, without breaks, food, shade, being whipped (look at the injuries on them), hard pulling of reins, drivers driving while drinking, making U-turns, reading the damn paper while driving, looking backwards while driving, while on their cell phones, leaving their horses unattended while they go into delis, filthy small prison stalls, obnoxious garland on the horse's heads, horses limping, drooling, tripping, falling, being frightened by noises, sound, light, traffic, ambulances, Mack trucks, fire engines, hit and killed, injuring people. The only thing extreme here is this industry. Everyone of these carriage horses WILL find safe sanctuary when this industry is banned & not be sent to auction which is what this cruel industry has been doing all along to them! We see the horses en route with drivers running red lights, galloping them through the streets, in blizzards with the horses eyelids frozen and cars sliding on the roads into the carriages, ice, sleet and rain storms. It was not until this ban that they suddenly went out and bought some of their horses spanking new coats & put up horse signs outside a stable. Every major animal welfare group is for this ban. Bravo to Zlizabeth Forel for putting in her efforts for this ban. She is smart, intelligent, kind hearted and cares about the horses and the fact that this dangerous industry has and will continue to kill more horses and people. Mr. Byrne has no right to make nasty comments about animal welfare individuals a cause he knows nothing about. He should be more concerned about explaining his arrerst for bribery to cover up his dirty little secrets at his stables. This is a corrupt business all the way around. Let's bury it.

Thank you Mr. Avella!

Posted On: Tuesday, Dec. 18 2007 @ 2:25AM
Peter says:

I don't know a lot about horses, but I learned one thing from spending last winter in Montana on a horse ranch. Horses don't seem to mind being out in the snow, but they cannot abide the wind, a sharp wind like what we just had is exactly what the horses should NOT have been exposed to! These people care about horses? Hard to believe!

Posted On: Tuesday, Dec. 18 2007 @ 10:43AM
Edita Forel says:

Attention All Animal Crazies, please, please, please get a life. You are so utterly pathetic and lonely and you must all have such sad and dysfunctional lives. Get married. Have children. Do something other than be miserable human beings with a completely false, empty and questionable compassion for a group of well-kept and healthy horses you never met and or spent time with (and that is a good thing for the horses as they can easily sense anger and disturbing, unbalanced behavior as you exhibit towards them every single weekend the readers here should know...the real horse abuse!). Again, get a life. You all look ridiculous and pathetic.

Posted On: Wednesday, Dec. 19 2007 @ 7:29PM
Steve says:

Aren't you aware that when you attack people personally, you don't convince anyone of anything. It actually makes the other side look better, so keep up the good work!

Posted On: Thursday, Dec. 20 2007 @ 12:37AM
Vegan says:

Thank you, Mr. Avella, for your proposal. For the sake of both human and non-human animals, I wholeheartedly support an end to this cruel and irresponsible industry.

Posted On: Friday, Dec. 21 2007 @ 11:00PM
Anna Marie says:

to those who say that a ban will lead to all the horses going to slaughter: It will not. But more importantly -- think about that charge -- these horses are privately owned. If they do go to the auctions - today or tomorrow - it will be because a carriage trade owner brought them there. The horses do not volunteer or go by themselves. The owner could just as easily have opted to keep them or bring them to a rescue operation. But we know that does not happen because they need the money they can make on the used up horse. So this is a ridiculous argument that has no basis in fact. If a horse goes to slaughter it it because the owner brought him/her there.

Another thing - is it possible for the carriage industry to argue a point without resorting to personal attacks - calling people morons, idiots, extremists, crazies?? Just wondering.

Posted On: Saturday, Dec. 22 2007 @ 2:09PM
Zizi says:

The animal rights movement is a social justice movement for animals. A movement for change from cruelty, neglect and abuse, to one of caring and compassion; a movement for change from slavery and exploitation to one that acknowledges the innate needs and rights of individuals of any species in our world.

The animal rights movement is an evolutionary movement stemming from an inner awareness, a higher consciousness that demands taking the moral high ground so that all beings can live free from pain and suffering; free from the greed and perversity that considers them "things" put here uniquely for our self-serving pleasure and use.

We who care passionately about animals are their defenders and protectors because they are voiceless. We confront society's indifference to suffering. We oppose the intentional breeding and killing of animals and the transformation of their bodies into products for human use and consumption. We challenge the status quo that fights to keep animals in the servile and subservient roles to which we have become accustomed.

I am therefore always amused by the use of terms such as "fanatics" and "extremists" as used to describe those of us who compassionately and for no personal gain, are willing to give of ourselves to fight for the right of other sentient beings to live without fear, pain or suffering; not as property, but as "individuals" endowed by the Creator with their own right to life.

Horses are herd animals that have needs for space, exercise, clean air that can never be met on the streets of big cities like New York; anyone who has ever read a book or watched a film about horses knows that. More rules and regulations will not change that. Putting them in Central Park will not change that. They are indentured slaves to an industry that sees only the profits to be made on the backs of animals. Instead of doing a hard day's work, or learning a real skill, trade or profession, they put the animals to work. So when you say "get a life" take a moment to look in the mirror; I have one. What about you?

Posted On: Saturday, Dec. 29 2007 @ 5:03PM
Mary Alice says:

How is it, again, Ms. Daly, and others in the industry, that I am an EXTREMIST?? Do you think it is an effective tactic to label your opponents as such? Extremists do things that are not appropriate in a civil society--toss bombs, deface property, burn down buildings, etc. Give me a break. The public knows better.
Time to ban horse-drawn carriages in NYC.
New Yorkers, support Intro. 658 and ask your city councilman to co-sponsor this important bill.

Posted On: Wednesday, Jan. 23 2008 @ 10:05AM
Lisa G says:

"Edita Forel" ... that's a good one. Nice work, Carolyn Daly! It's brilliant to merge the names of two well-known people and put it as the signature of your silly letter, trying to characterize individuals who oppose horse-drawn carriages as "extremists." Kind of like a defense attorney's tactic of trying to assault the character of a woman who has been raped. You are one smart cookie.

Posted On: Wednesday, Jan. 23 2008 @ 10:13AM
Bridget says:

I am all for banning the horse and carriages in NYC. I hope it gets banned in other cities as well. I am not an extremist, but an animal lover that feels these horses are being mistreated. My mother was trampled and killed by a horse May 3, 1984 in Charleston, SC when a horse got spooked by workers using jackhammers in the street nearby. The horse broke free from the carriage and injured the carriage driver. He had to be hospitalized. Before the accident my Mom and I talked about how cruel it was to have these horses in the city. The cars would blow their horns constantly trying to get the carriages to speed up or get out of the way. The cars would speed around the horses as soon as they could all the while blowing their horns. Not long after my mother was killed another horse ran through the same area and almost hit some young people. Luckily no one was injured. I don't see how people think it's ok to subject these horses to this. They have the horses working in very hot and humid conditions, impatient drivers blowing horns, lots of distractions to spook the horses, and it's not right. I just don't think the city is the place to have these carriage rides. I support this ban 100%

Posted On: Friday, Jan. 25 2008 @ 3:41PM
Edita Forel says:

Sorry Lisa G. I am not Carolyn, but I consider that a compliment and support her industry's strong defense against your mean-spirited twisted and certifiably-crazy propaganda attacks on a completely humane and decent group of working people. Perhaps it is you and your "EXTREMISTS" (love that word!) that need to just get a life and get on with it. Your empty lives are so very magnified for all to see in a city that pities you and your lack of family and true meaning, not the horses. Get real, get a life and get lost! Ciao, loser.

Posted On: Friday, Jan. 25 2008 @ 7:12PM
Stacy says:

I have owned horses all my life! I have been to New York City and eperienced the Carriage Rides first hand. I support the carriage drivers! Too Many Animal Activists out there are mental, people need to stop listening to people like these and start using common sense. I don't care where you have horses, accidents will happen! Those horses are taken care of alot better than many I have seen in my life and are happy and healthy. Too many people don't know the joy many horses have when they know their jobs! NOT TO MENTION THE BLOOD SWEAT AND TEARS THEIR DRIVERS PUT INTO THOSE HORSES! These days most horses live better then most people! Have a heart and support the carriage horses and their drivers!

Posted On: Thursday, Jan. 31 2008 @ 3:09PM
Tom says:

Yes, humane and hard working like Cornelius Byrne who was charged with bribing an undercover inspector for overlooking 7 violations at his stable, including one that was warned about in the auditor's report--displaying one license on two horses! Double-shifted, not registered? Which one was it Neil?

How many other times has he or other decent hardworking people bribed inspectors?

Humane industry you are, with a horse dying on Friday in a stable. What about all of the other carriage horses who have died behind closed doors--8 or 9 in the past two years, some of whom were only 5 years old.

This industry is a black eye on New York City and the people in the city council and mayor's office who support it.

Posted On: Sunday, Feb. 10 2008 @ 12:40PM
peeba says:

Just think of all of the animal rights activists who hate the carriages that dont even know what they are really supporting. Look up petakillsanimals.com- it show the real agenda behind animal rights movements...the total liberation of animals. That means, you would not have the right to eat meat, have pets. use medicines made from animal products, use animal products, ride a horse, use animals for work, the list goes on and on. It is rediculous!
Those horses are beautiful by the way, and are very happy and well adjusted animals. I take a ride every time Im in town!
Dont let the animal rights terrorists fet you down!!!!!! You will be proven right in the end. There is nothing you do that they can argue against. Their arguments are rediculous and do not make any sense!

Posted On: Sunday, Feb. 10 2008 @ 2:44PM
AlpenGold says:

There are many people in the carriage industry that most likely do care for their horses. I don't question that. But there are also too many that don't give a rat's ass about the welfare of their animals. It's the bad ones that get people's attention, rarely the ones who look amazing and are well turned out everyday. I've been on the carriage driver's side but not anymore. I know too much to support most cities with large horse drawn carriage industries. All animals have basic requirements and if those can't be met then the animal shouldn't be in that person's care. There are very few in the industry (entire United States) that do it right. Draft horses were bred to pull, and I do think they enjoy it. But that isn't the point, the point is that at the end of the day, where do those horses go? What kind of life do they have when they aren't pulling? Are they resting in stalls that are too small? Either changes need to be made to make the industry fair and safe for the horses or it needs to be brought to an end.

Posted On: Tuesday, Feb. 12 2008 @ 9:30PM
cinda says:

For the few people (or is it one?-Carolyn Daly) who are writing in defense of the carriage industry-labeling people who care about the horses extremists, terrorists, and mean, have you noticed how many more people have written in favor of the ban, and against this cruel industry?

Posted On: Wednesday, Feb. 20 2008 @ 2:19PM
Lisa G says:

To "Edita Forel" (good one, Carolyn!):
So, you took a break from "extremist" and now declare me to be "certifiably crazy!" Let me understand you correctly. Are you saying that people who have "a life" and presumably "a family" are allowed to hurl insults such as "extremist," "animal crazies," and the like, with impugnity? Is this why we see families on the UES teaching their children to assault pigeons? Also, am I understanding you correctly when you say that our peaceful activism (ie, leafleting, collecting signatures) is disturbing to the horses and is therefore abusive? Yikes, I don't go NEAR the horses for fear one of them will spook and be crushed to death, or else drop dead from colic or malnutrition or lack of drinking water. A sight I hope never to see again.

Gawd. Your ramblings are a hoot.

Posted On: Saturday, Feb. 23 2008 @ 2:13PM
Robert says:

I have had just about of this rediculousness. In Massachussetts on November 4 2008, we voted to out law dog racing, because the dogs were "abused" and "mistreated." Think about it. Trainers want their dogs to win the race. So how can a dog perform at its peak if it is malnurished, abused, overworked? 2000 jobs will now be lost because of it, in this prospering economy. Animal rights activists are out of controll. This horse and carriage issue is the same thing. Jill wrote in an earlier post that there has been 26 accidents between 1994-2007. woopidee doo. Thats about 2 a year. How many car accidents were ther in that time span? How many car-animal collisions were there? Think about that poor bird that was shreded in the turbine of that plane that went down in the Hudson River. How many more birds have been killed by comercial air liners? Why dont we out law motor vehicles,and comercial air liners while we are at it. Over 500 innocent Palestinian civilians have been killed in a month. While people have the nerve to protest this countries historical industries. I will end this with a question for any of you extreme animal rights activists. Why are you so passionate about saving a happy working animal, and so apathetic of women, children, babies, and parents being slayed in Gaza?

Posted On: Sunday, Feb. 1 2009 @ 10:17AM
Leah Williams says:

So peta are boringly at the histrionics yet again. Who is that previous poster Elizabeth Forel? She is either a genuine paranoid or an idiotic liar/libellist.
I do believe that these horse and carriage have been around since 1854, the earliest written record, 68 of them as now.
Its a great industry and great to see in the streets of NYC, the greatest city in the world, damned shame if some silly animal rights ranters destroy an icon of the city. They harass the poor carrige drivers constantly.
The horses are beautiful to see and; whenever do some kids, indeed adults ever otherwise get the chance to actually walk up and touch and observe horses and thus learn about them in this heart of the city? People love them.
The list of pols, celebs general A-listers et al that have taken a ride is astonishing, being a carriage driver in NY means getting to meet a lot of famous people, work in movies and videos, represent NYC in its last bid for the Olympic stage, all that sort of thing; perhaps peta pests are envious.
Go find a worthy cause peta pests, try contributing something REALLY USEFUL to society please.
Thank you.

Posted On: Sunday, Feb. 1 2009 @ 8:00PM
Anonymous says:

So peta are boringly at the histrionics yet again. Who is that previous poster Elizabeth Forel? She is either a genuine paranoid or an idiot with an overactive imagination and liar/libellist tendancies.
I do believe that these horse and carriage have been around since 1854, the earliest written record, 68 of them as now.
Its a great industry and great to see in the streets of NYC, the greatest city in the world, damned shame if some silly animal rights ranters destroy an icon of the city. They harass the poor carrige drivers constantly.
The horses are beautiful to see and; whenever do some kids, indeed adults ever otherwise get the chance to actually walk up and touch and observe horses and thus learn about them in this heart of the city? People love them.
The list of pols, celebs general A-listers et al that have taken a ride is astonishing, being a carriage driver in NY means getting to meet a lot of famous people, work in movies and videos, ads, represent NYC in its last bid for the Olympic stage, all that sort of thing; perhaps peta pests are envious.
Go find a worthy cause peta pests, try contributing something REALLY USEFUL to society please.
Thank you.

Posted On: Sunday, Feb. 1 2009 @ 8:07PM
Teru says:

Good one, Carolyn - achooo! -anonomous

Posted On: Monday, Mar. 9 2009 @ 2:58PM
Anita Gerami says:

The Carriage Rides are wonderful,our big beautiful draft horses are on display everyday at Central PK.Obviously the general public loves carriage rides,as weekends there are lines of passengers waiting to ride.We host the NY Theraputic Riding Center in our stable every week,where a NARHA certified instructor and throngs of volenteers sees our animals and stable and love everything they see.As for ''horses hooves hanging over gutters'' in the stable Ms.Davis has a strange concept of our stables when she was never in a nyc stable.We have box stalls,automatic waterers,skylights,windows,exhaust fans,sprinkers,smoke dectectors,24 hr stable staff.Oh by the way no horse owner or stable owner has ever been cited for cruelty.

Posted On: Sunday, Oct. 25 2009 @ 6:41PM
Heather Flournoy says:

Have any of you, or the city council members or Gov Patterson actually been to the stables near Javitts? Or anywhere else in the city? I've personally visited two, and am a long-time horse trainer and environmentalist and love animals, and am totally opposed to this ban. That's right. I think well-cared for horses are an asset to the city.

The horses I visited were well cared for, happy, had several mos off per year at a farm in Vermont, didn't work too hard, and were well loved. The funniest part is that there is a YouTube video being promoted that is supposed to show the poor abused horses working in the city. Most of those horses look healthy and relaxed and have their ears up and are being driven with loose reins, meaning they aren't in distress. Many of them look forward to being pet and to their work. Surprisingly many horses enjoy doing their jobs and pleasing their handlers and are big, amiable beings.

PETA and other misguided animal rights groups put out info that is uninformed and that attacks easy targets, namely the working class.

It's easy to attack people making a living with horses in the city.

The next point is that those poor horses are breathing awful air! Funny, last I checked, wasn't EVERYONE in NYC was breathing the same air?

I'm outraged and disappointed to hear so many mis-informed council members support the ban, and especially embarrassed that Governor Patterson has made ill-informed statements with regards to this issue. Either he doesn't know much about horses, or he hasn't personally investigated the living conditions of the horses.

Posted On: Wednesday, Dec. 23 2009 @ 2:33PM
Chantal Landrith says:

Thanks for the article. Blogging is replacing main stream news for many people.

Posted On: Thursday, Dec. 24 2009 @ 2:40AM
Philadelphia SEO says:

Such a usefule blog. wow !!!!

Posted On: Friday, Feb. 5 2010 @ 2:26AM

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