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Jason Beghe to Scientology Mouthpiece Tommy Davis: 'You're Losing Your Soul'

Posted by Tony Ortega at 5:11 PM, May 14, 2008


Scientology defector Jason Beghe on Scientology spokesman Tommy Davis: "You see the eyes, the lying that he’s doing. Anybody can see that this guy is not clean. It’s clear as day."

Last week, John Roberts of CNN grilled Tommy Davis, a Scientology spokesman, who was predictably evasive about what L. Ron Hubbard’s wacky minions are up to. ‘Disconnection,’ the church policy of splitting up families in order to shun critics of the church? Never happens, Davis claimed. And as for that high-priced stuff about removing alien souls with lie detector machines? “It’s unrecognizable to me,” Davis told Roberts.

But it was Davis himself who was practically unrecognizable, Jason Beghe tells the Voice.

Beghe is Scientology’s most notorious recent defector, a veteran film and television actor who, after twelve years and approximately $1 million spent on the religion, defected in spectacular manner with a web video in which he denounced Scientology as “destructive and a rip-off.”

Davis, meanwhile, is the son of another Scientology celebrity, actress Anne Archer. He’s a longtime Hubbardite himself, and helped to run the Celebrity Centre in Los Angeles. Davis told Rolling Stone in 2006 that L. Ron Hubbard was “the coolest guy ever.” Davis is also well known for provoking BBC journalist John Sweeney into a temper tantrum that became a YouTube hit last year.

Beghe, however, has more personal memories of the man.

“On the day I was getting married, I was waiting in my house with David Duchovny, my best man, and everything was fine. Then about an hour before I had to go, I started to get nervous. I don’t drink much, so I don’t have much to drink in the house. So I called Tommy Davis and he brought me a cold six-pack.”

And there was also this: “I had a terrible car accident,” Beghe says. “I was in a coma for three and a half weeks. Either Tommy or someone else from Celebrity Centre was with me for that entire time.”

“I know this guy,” Beghe says.

And that’s why Davis’s appearance on CNN was so troubling, Beghe explains.

“He was saying there’s no Disconnection. That’s a fucking lie. I’m not even a declared suppressive person, and they’ve all disconnected from me,” Beghe says about his former friends in the church. “They kicked my four-year-old son out of a fucking Scientology school. There’s your church.”

Davis, however, looked terrible as he tried to spin Roberts. “He’s lying, and it shows. What really saddened me, this was one of the most handsome, beautiful kids I’d seen in my life. And he’s starting to look like a hardcore Scientologist. He’s no longer beautiful. You see the eyes, the lying that he’s doing. Anybody can see that this guy is not clean. It’s clear as day,” Beghe says.

“I felt sorry for Tommy. If he’s reading this, I want to tell him: you’re losing your soul. Look in the mirror. You look like a liar. And remember what happened to Mike Rinder. You’re starting to look like that,” Beghe adds, referring to a former high-level official who recently “blew,” or left the organization. “They used Rinder as a spokesman, when he was the kind of person you’d cast in a movie as the villain. It was chilling. And Tommy is getting that look.”

Beghe says that he’s heard the reports that after the Sweeney matter, Davis was put on “RPF”—Rehabilitation Project Force—a notorious program of manual labor that Hubbard created to “redeem” wayward Scientologists.

“The RPF is there to suppress you, to make you toe the line. They pull all your hidden data [make people confess to wrongdoings in intense therapy sessions], they make you do menial, repetitive labor. And there’s sleep deprivation. This is bad shit,” Beghe says.

After watching last week, Beghe says Davis looks like he’d been through that kind of program.

“When I saw him on CNN, I thought, ‘Oh my God, what have they done to this guy.’”
Beghe, who had reached ‘OT V’, one of the highest levels in the church, which charges increasingly substantial amounts of money to learn its secrets, acknowledges that Davis may not yet have attained OT III. At that level, which costs about $100,000 to attain, parishioners are finally told Scientology’s origin story—that a galactic overlord named Xenu brought surplus aliens to Earth and destroyed them, but the disembodied souls of those aliens are still among us, attached to people, and only Hubbard’s “technology”—a talking cure—can remove them.

If Davis hasn’t reached OT III, Beghe points out, it’s possible that he’s telling the truth when Roberts asked him about the alien souls and Davis responded that it was “unrecognizable.” But as a church spokesman, it’s hard to believe that he isn’t aware how much Scientology’s secrets are now part of popular culture.

Either way, Beghe says, Davis is well aware of the way Scientology splits up families, goes after critics, and charges people higher and higher amounts for superpowers that never materialize.

“You stand up there and lie and cover up something that is evil, that is going to take its toll,” Beghe says.

more: Scientology

comments

"Oh my God, what have they done to this guy.’”
I believe this was just about everybody's reaction.
When I first saw tommy a few years ago, I remembered thinking "what a shame, such a nice looking boy."
Now he looks aged well beyond his young years and there is something sinister, cold and empty in his eyes.
He looks terrible.

Thank you yet again for speaking out Jason Beghe!!!
I hope your words get through to that poor soul and help open his eyes to what they are doing to him.

Oh also, technically, he wasn't lying when he said that scientologists to not believe in "alien ghost parasites." BUT they do believe in Body Thetans, whose description to us non-scis would sound very much like "alien ghost parasites."

It seems to be a very typical practice for Scientologists to use semantics as an avoidance method when it comes to things they’d rather not discuss.

Posted by: Markay Bayan at May 14, 2008 6:16 PM

I have to agree -- Tommy looked absolutely horrible. I couldn't believe this was the same kid from the BBC video.

It's not just that he looks awful, either. He was totally off his game. His lying isn't even polished or quick-witted these days. He just looked like a complete ass.

Back to the RFP, methinks.

Dude: FOLLOW BEGHE'S LEAD AND GET THE HELL OUT.

Posted by: David Mudkips at May 14, 2008 6:48 PM

It's great to have Jason speaking out so openly. And Davis has taken on something of a look of a movie villain. I guess you have to kill something inside to be able to lie so blatantly for an organization which you must know, at some level, to be sinister.

Posted by: MightyTiny at May 14, 2008 6:54 PM

Tommy looked like he's just feeling completely sad and full of grief. You can see that he's a nice guy but just full of sadness and misery.

Posted by: Aerial Song at May 14, 2008 6:58 PM

I met Beghe years ago and he looks fruity in his interviews now. He should be the last one being critical.

Posted by: jason2 at May 14, 2008 7:16 PM

After seeing Davis stalking the BBC and lying on CNN, and then reading about him harassing Jenna Miscavige-Hill, recently-"blown" niece of the cult's leader, I thought he was a complete villain as well.

Jason Beghe's comments really hit home, actually. He has become a robot, and exactly the same thing happened to Rinder. I feel very sorry for Davis now, especially since he has to work for the notoriously abusive David Miscavige. My heart goes out to him, and I hope he finds some inner strength.

Posted by: Anne at May 14, 2008 7:20 PM

Great work Tony and thank you Jason for your honesty.

Posted by: at May 14, 2008 7:33 PM

Good article.

I miss my old boy friend Tommy Davis he used to much more handsome when we spooned with my cock in his ass.

in b4 terryo

Posted by: TerreyO at May 14, 2008 7:57 PM

http://faq.scientology.org/discon.htm

No disconnection, eh? It's right on their site. Idiots, can't even lie right.

Posted by: Jack at May 14, 2008 8:06 PM

I remember when there was a pilot shot down during Desert Storm, and the Iraqis put him on TV to "confess," and he was blinking out Morse code for "torture."

Watching Tommy, I wonder if he's blinking out, "Please help me... Please help me..."

I've never seen him before, and have no idea who he is, but just watching him on this piece of footage... It's crazy... It's obvious that something very very bad has happened to him, and I feel sorry for him.

If this is what scientology does to people, OMG... That's ENOUGH and it will STOP.

Posted by: Betty Swollocks at May 14, 2008 8:13 PM

I remember when there was a pilot shot down during Desert Storm, and the Iraqis put him on TV to "confess," and he was blinking out Morse code for "torture."

Watching Tommy, I wonder if he's blinking out, "Please help me... Please help me..."

I've never seen him before, and have no idea who he is, but just watching him on this piece of footage... It's crazy... It's obvious that something very very bad has happened to him, and I feel sorry for him.

If this is what scientology does to people, OMG... That's ENOUGH and it will STOP.

Posted by: Betty Swollocks at May 14, 2008 8:14 PM

Thank you to Tony Ortega, The Villiage Voice and Jason Beghe.

The church of scientology wasn't fooling a soul with those lies Tommy was telling.

The jig is up cos.

The first one to talk gets immunity - the rest go to jail

Posted by: keekeeleekee at May 14, 2008 8:25 PM

Thank you, Jason, for telling it like it is. I only hope your words reach Tommy.

Posted by: psyborgue at May 14, 2008 8:41 PM

Why hasn't any government agency raided one of these RPF camps yet? There are videos of ex-scientologists confirming purchases of black market military weaponry which and then held at these prison camps, particularly "Gold Base" in Hemet California.

You can literally see sniper-nests carved into the hillside. This is heavy stuff.

Posted by: Terryeo at May 14, 2008 9:03 PM

I'm glad Jason Beghe said all of this and congratulate the Village Voice for the great story.

I know it was early in the morning in California when the CNN piece was taped, but I thought the same thing when seeing the piece - "What have they done to this guy?" One side of his face just didn't look "right". Tommy, blow. Now. Before it gets even worse. And take the people in SP Hall with you.

Jason & Village Voice, you guys are full of win.

Posted by: C_Van at May 14, 2008 9:29 PM

Please Jason, tell us what you really think.

Well said Jason and Tony, once again.

And where is the mainstream media regarding the blue asbestos found on the Freewinds by authorities a couple of weeks ago, and the ex Scientology members saying the COS knew about it for over 20 years? By any standards, that is blockbuster news. Countless celebrities have been on that ship.

Posted by: johnhappygamebuyer at May 14, 2008 9:37 PM

Want some 'scientific' evidence for Tommy Davis' untruthfulness in the interview? He blinked his eyes over 90 times during the interview- about 3 times more often than a person telling the truth would have blinked. Poor man, the cult trots him out of prison camp long enough to make a pathetic fool of himself on national TV.

Thank you so much Village Voice for continuing to keep the story alive!

Posted by: Janes Lightfield at May 14, 2008 9:51 PM

Tommy Davis' told CNN that people should look on Scientology's website if they have questions. Here the lie is evident because on Scientology's own website: http://www.scientologyhandbook.org/SH11_4.HTM

The disconnection policy is as clear as can be.

"There are two stable data which anyone has to have, understand and know are true in order to obtain results in handling the person connected to suppressives.

These data are:

1. That all illness in greater or lesser degree and all foul-ups stem directly and only from a PTS condition.

2. That getting rid of the condition requires three basic actions: (A) Discover; (B) Handle or (C) Disconnect."

Posted by: wontsayanon at May 14, 2008 10:09 PM

Please Jason, tell us what you really think.

Well said Jason and Tony, once again.

And where is the mainstream media regarding the blue asbestos found on the Freewinds by authorities a couple of weeks ago, and the ex Scientology members saying the COS knew about it for over 20 years? By any standards, that is blockbuster news. Countless celebrities have been on that ship.

Posted by: johnhappygamebuyer at May 14, 2008 10:14 PM

Tommy Davis does look beaten down, because he is! Sad but true. Anne Archer wake up and take care of your son, both of you get the heck out of that cult and soon.

Thanks Jason for speaking the truth for so many!!!

Scientology is far worse than people think and are lead to believe. As Jason said and many agree it is "destructive and is a rip-off".

Posted by: patty at May 14, 2008 10:20 PM

Beghe is beginning to sound just like others who have refused to do their qualification action. Same song, another verse, same words, colorful curses. The Church says something like "The sky is blue with a few clouds". Beghe says something like "The sky is filled with threatening clouds, a small piece of blue is 'way over there".

Posted by: Terryeo at May 14, 2008 10:56 PM

If Tommy Davis didn't know about OT 3 then that is chilling in its own right. Here is a spokesman for a religion whose critics know more about its doctrine than the spokesman does.

Posted by: Jeff Mudkip at May 14, 2008 10:59 PM

Wow! JB and Tony Ortega both have balls of steel!

It's good to see some people are finally starting to report the facts unafraid of Scientology's scare tactics.

You have a Legion of fans out here supporting you.

Posted by: David Mudkips at May 14, 2008 11:13 PM

Very nice article. Nice to hear from Jason Beghe once again. The more ex-Scientologists who come out, the more truth we hear from them, but ofcourse they're all hired the Psychiatrists.

Posted by: Joe at May 14, 2008 11:21 PM

Does anyone actually know what level Tommy Davis has got to in the organization? Please, if you have info, let us know. This is critical to our handling of his problems. We want to help him so badly. Clearly things are not going well for him, and he's going to make himself sick. We want to make things better.

Posted by: Theta Omega at May 14, 2008 11:27 PM

Tommy Davis says there is no policy of "Disconection", and says to get info from the source, the source being the Church of Scientology.

So I did. And while it says it's "voluntary", it DOES EXIST, the info is on THEIR OWN FREAKIN' WEBSITE:
http://faq.scientology.org/page40.htm

Tommy Davis. Official spokesman. Either officially ignorant, or officially a liar. Or both.

Posted by: DeadFace at May 14, 2008 11:47 PM

Thank you for publishing this article and thank you, Jason, for speaking out. You sure do tell it like it is.

There may be some "plausible deniability" with regard to Tommy's comments saying that removing alien beings from his body was "unrecognizable."

But IF you give him that deniability (what level IS he?) -- it only further proves the point that scientology does not reveal it's Genesis story until one has paid tens of thousands of dollars to learn of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvDifn_dSnU

Imagine if you had to pay tens of thousands of dollars to learn about Adam and Eve as a Christian (easiest example I can think of).

So -- it's kind of a no-win situation... heh.

Here is an important piece of testimony from David Miscavige's own niece after seeing the Tommy Davis interview on CNN: http://www.exscientologykids.com/eskforums/viewtopic.php?t=1185

Interesting tidbits from her post:

"The day after Dallas and I went to the April 12th protest, Dallas’s parents were calling him saying that they wanted to meet. They said that I could not be there.

So Dallas went to meet with them and he arrived at their house. His brother was there too.

They sat down to talk and the first subject was the protest that happened the day before. It came out that they had just come from a meeting at the San Diego Church of Scientology with Tommy Davis, Jenny Linson/Devocht, Angie Blankenship and Jessica Rodriguez/Feshbach (yes Katie Holmes auditor).

They showed them pictures of us at the protest, with details of what our signs said. They told them that we were having meetings with Graham Berry and Tory Christman and showed them pictures with us meeting at the protest. They said how Graham and Tori were criminals and we were associating and we had been meeting with them. Even though I am sure this is complete B.S., the day of the protest is the only day in both of our lives, that we had ever seen or had any form of communication with either of them.

Then Jessica told them that they saw us going to eat with a member of anonymous which means that we are members of anonymous which is a criminal organization. When Dallas’s parents asked them how they knew who we went to dinner with, Jessica realized she slipped and Tommy said, “Because we were having the Anon member followed!” "

I don't want to take up a whole lotta space here -- click the link above to read what David Miscavige's niece has to say about hubbard's Disconnection Policy.

She is one of thousands (or who knows, maybe tens of thousands) of people who are victims of it.

scientology wants to talk about "hate crimes?" Oy, don't get me started. It has an over 50 year history of committing hate crimes against anyone who questions hubbard's "philosophy."

Google "scientology" -- you don't even need to get specific -- to read what people have experienced at the hands of this "religion."

I am worried about Tommy Davis -- he DOES look pretty banged up. It has to be hard to be in such terrible denial.

Another Surfer

Posted by: Another Surfer at May 15, 2008 12:14 AM

Thanks Tony! You really get Scientology, thanks! Village Voice is right on top of the frontpeople for Scientology. Tommy Davis, Scientology frontperson, will probably hang in there, since his family are staunch followers, as are all his friends. Scientology is his whole world. I think long range, if Scientology is able to make 2 changes, it would improve it's long range success. 1) Amnesty all the tens of thousands of ex followers who Scienotlogy has labeled "suppressive persons", because doing an Amnesty would result in allowing reconnection to all persons who have been disconnected, so an Amnesty is a fast immediate and thorough solution to the disconnection problem. 2) Allow Scientologists of all "case" levels to freely discuss the Xenu genocide and the "body thetans" theology of Scientology. Those two problems, disconnection and free discussion by Scientology followers of the Xenu genocide/body thetans theology, are the two largest stumbling blocks keeping Scientology in its cult bubble world. Great reporting! Chuck Beatty, ex Sea Org staffer, 1975-2003, Pittsburgh, USA

Posted by: Chuck Beatty at May 15, 2008 12:33 AM

Thanks Jason!! I couldn't agree with you more. I knew Tommy very well, as I first started my Sea Org career at CC Int. I know he is a good person, but to see him fall further and further out of valence and into his "Tommy Scientologist" valence is definitely disheartening. I think his days are numbered, and hopefully him and his wife can get out and make good for the lies they have told.

Posted by: Amy at May 15, 2008 1:19 AM

Thank you Jason for saying it like it is. It never ceases to amaze me just how easily lying comes to these guys. I feel much sadness for Tommy. This is a guy who is under so much pressure from David Miscaviage that he will do or say anything he is briefed to say because the consequences for failure are so, so bad. And by the way Tommy, as you are fully aware, there IS such a thing as disconnection because when I left the Sea Org my mother wrote me an actual "disconnection letter". I have not seen or heard from her in about 10years now.

Do yourself a favor; stop lying and listen to the nagging voice in your head telling you "something's wrong" and "this just isn't right". No failure in leaving dude, just failure in not actually doing anything to stop the gross violations going on at the top of the Organization and perpetuating the lies yourself. You're the one being set up to take the fall.

Oh and by the way, in case you're feeling like one of the big kids hanging out with Dave and Tom (although factually your party days are probably over after the Panorama fiasco), one day Tom will actually find out what is "really" going on behind the scenes, and he's going to get really, really upset. Truth and honesty will prevail in the end, so get ready for it.

Posted by: Leilu at May 15, 2008 1:27 AM

Here is my song parody for the OTIII level. It uses some scienospeak, here are the definitions:
wall of fire = OTIII level where you find out about Xenu
beetee = BT = "body thetan"
C/S = case supervisor
cans = electrodes for e-meter
WOG = non scientologist, derogatory slang
osuh = OSA or office of special affairs, scientology dirty trick department
oatee = OT for operating thetan, an advanced Scientologist

Wall of Horseshit (to the tune of Sound of Silence,
apologies to Simon and Garfunkel)

Hello Beetee my old friend,
I've come to audit you again.
Because in my space you've been creeping,
You and thousands like you are speaking,
Cause the implant Xenu planted in my brain,
Still remains
From Hubbard's wall, of fire.

Packed in ice and shipped through space,
More Beetee's than the human race.
Stuffed and H Bombed in the volcanos,
Beetees clumped together up the nose
T'ill I held the cans on the orders of my C/S,
What a mess,
It's Hubbard's Wall, of fire.

And in the confines of my head,
I audited those Beetee's dead.
I ordered each Beetee to say his name,
And then march out of my head in shame,
It's a story, with the WOGs I can never share,
Oatee's don't dare,
Reveal the wall, of fire.

"Fool!" said I, I've been so dumb,
In my head I've gotten numb.
Heed my warning, I beseech you,
Don't let yourself be suckered too,
But my words, on the Scienos deaf ears fell,
And echoed on the wall, of horseshit.


And the Scieno's borrowed and payed,
For the horseshit bridge Ron made.
And the Espee's hollered their warning,
Though the Osuh minions were swarming,
So the sign, saying "Ron is Xenu" would not
be seen,
Not too keen,
Over the wall, of horseshit.


Posted by: Pete at May 15, 2008 1:55 AM

Jason's ability to communicate is extraordinary. I know he wishes only the best for Tommy Davis. Anyone who cares for the bloke has to wonder at what is happening to him. Unfortunately, by participating in the lies, Tommy is perpetuating the damage done by organized Scientology.

Posted by: Plups at May 15, 2008 2:21 AM

Jason Beghe speaks out again! The man is a breath of fresh air.

Tommy Davis did look like the shadow of himself on CNN compared to the BBC video. I don't know what the cult has done to him but it looks like he wouldn't be able to stand much more of it.

Posted by: Mark Abian at May 15, 2008 3:48 AM

Jason Beghe is fearless and his compassion for this guy shows through.People like Tommy Davis are broken by Scientology and turned into liars who will say anything in order to try and protect their cult from the truth.
Now if Jason could reach some of those high profile Celebrity Scientologist and get them to see the truth,that would be great!Tom,Katie,John,Kirstie,Beck-you guys know that Jason is speaking the truth!Leave the destructive cult behind and reclaim your lives!
Join the worldwide protests against the cult on June 14th at a Scientology centre near you!
http://www.whyweprotest.net

Posted by: andy d at May 15, 2008 4:03 AM

I first encountered Tommy Davies through the BBC documentary, and he came off as incredibly hostile, confrontational and downright creepy. I can't believe Scientology would choose to put such a person in any public relations role.

If what Jason Beghe says is true and there's actually a kind, caring human being behind the facade, it only goes to show what Scientology "tech" will get you.

Posted by: Leif at May 15, 2008 5:05 AM

Nice interview. I agree about Tommy though, it's sad to see someone lying like that, when by all accounts they were probably a nice person once. I think Jasons's right, it's costing Tommy his soul. The sad thing is he probably knows it.

Jason Beghe rocks by the way!

Posted by: WolfyRik at May 15, 2008 5:37 AM

I'm surprised Mr. Ortega could hear Mr. Beghe's answers over the horrible, pervasive clanging of Jason's giant brass ones.

Fear not, Jason: you saw through the con job and got out, which means that Davis can too. Thanks again for speaking out.

Posted by: Alcanon at May 15, 2008 7:36 AM

Great article. Thanks for keeping their feet to the fire.

Posted by: John Smith at May 15, 2008 7:52 AM

Another life destroyed.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 15, 2008 9:44 AM

I wasn't sure if he was lying the whole time or just part of the time. He may have actually believed part of the misinformation he was dealing out. He does look like he's been tortured compared to what he looked like last year.

I hope his parents have the decency to see what's happening to him and get him out before it's too late.

Posted by: stivbator at May 15, 2008 10:02 AM

Once again, thank you Jason Beghe.
In a culture that is so celebrity-centric, such as ours, your words have great power. Please alwaya be there to refute scientology lies and brainwashing and speak the truth. And thank you Tony Ortega and The Village Voice for being a forum for free speech. Our Founding Fathers would be proud of you both.

Posted by: Zenster at May 15, 2008 10:05 AM

Tommy Davis is yet another victim of the organization known as scientology. He just doesn't know it yet. "Acceptable truths" (known as lies to non-scientologists) are what he is trained to spew.

He looks terrible, lies transparently to anyone that has researched into the history and ongoing abuses of scientology, and probably thinks that he's doing the right thing (for scientology).

The whole situation is sad, and I hope he bumps into the walls of his Truman Show and realizes this before his health declines even further than it appears to have already.

Posted by: Mark. A. Bian at May 15, 2008 10:46 AM

When I saw it I thought that he looked like a prisoner of war. Like someone who hasn't slept properly in weeks or longer, has been subjected to mind altering techniques, and was suddenly dragged out of that situation and dumped in front of a camera, knowing there will be hell to pay if he says anything his leader doesn't approve of.

If it's true that he was in the Rehabilitation Project Force, that's probably exactly what happened.

Posted by: Ann at May 15, 2008 11:39 AM

All of you Scientology "experts" really know what you are talking about -- not. You are all critical of Scientology yet know one has mentioned why it cannot be true? Experts once thought the universe revolved around the earth. Now we find out that the earth is on the outer edge of our galaxy and we are one in an infinite number of galaxies.

What do we know or understand regarding the spirit or our soul? So why are Hubbard's "stories" or theories so far fetched?

Posted by: Mike at May 15, 2008 12:01 PM

Hi Mike!

Nice to hear from another Scientologist like myself around here!

By the way, though, the dominant scientific theory holds for a finite number of galaxies in the universe. Otherwise I agree with you, we should be allowed to believe whatever we wish to believe.

However, I do not condone the obvious deception that the management is trying to foist on the American people right now. We all know that disconnection is real, but Tommy is forced to lie about it on national TV. How is that helping our cause?

This is the strategy that is failing. It is high time that the management of Scientology reforms, stops the lying, and stops the abuses. All of the evils of the management of scientology are out-tech. David Miscavige has been squirrelinig the tech and pulling in all of the entheta, and HE NEEDS TO STEP DOWN NOW.

But, he's subverted the RTC and Sea Org and rules all the orgs with an iron fist.

David Miscavige is the nightmare that L Ron Hubbard foreshadowed to when he said,
"Did you ever read poor old George Orwell's 1984? Yes,yes, that's wonderful. That could be the palest imagined shadow of what a world would be like under the rule of the secret use of Scientology with no remedy in existence."

David Miscavige has removed or subverted all of Hubbards well intention checks against abuse of the tech.

Scientologists are the only ones who can truly clean up this mess, and I for one am on the case!
I simply ask anyone who call themselves a Scientologist to examine ALL the data. Yes, even the data that you are told to avoid. When did Hubbard ever say NOT to read a book? The same should said for websites.
Don't let others tell YOU what is entheta!
Decide for yourselves!

bgodley, with eyes wide open, thanks to Anonymous.

Posted by: bgodley at May 15, 2008 12:43 PM

Mike: I won't be feeding the trolls with your above comment. All collaborative research into Hubbard's tech has shown no effect.

Thank you Tony Ortega for your continued insightful and powerful coverage.

Posted by: David M at May 15, 2008 12:52 PM

"What do we know or understand regarding the spirit or our soul? So why are Hubbard's "stories" or theories so far fetched?"

No one argues Hubbard's stories. What is being contested is the actions and practiced doctrines of the management of this "church." Honestly, what parish forces freeloader debt on donations? What eccelsiastical society practices policies of harassing litigation to silence critics? What diocese keeps folders of confessions from its followers? What religious body has it's own personal "rehabilitation" camp to force members to be put to hard labor and depravation of food, sleep, and communication with the outside?

The Freezoners practice Hubbard's beliefs -freely-, and they too are harassed by the cult of Scientology.

No, this is not about the Spiratual state of mind of a pop fiction writer. This is about the abuses of human rights committed by those in power over this "church".

Posted by: SteveDaly at May 15, 2008 12:56 PM

Mike,

Let's see if we can be clear on something. Most of us couldn't care less about Elron's theories and whether you are blind enough to believe them. For most of us those are simply humorous diversions. Oh hell, you caught us, we laugh our asses off just thinking you guys really believe that shit!

But what we protest about is that your "church" goes to incredible lengths to deny parishioners their basic human rights. OK, now this is where you deny that ever happens. Go ahead and tell us how the "church" has never forced an abortion, never deprived any child of an education or even time to be with their parents, never held a member for 17 days against her will as she died of thirst and starvation while being eaten by roaches, never made family and friends disconnect from one another. The list goes on, and all your bullshit can't make it not true. You cannot discount THOUSANDS of people all telling the same stories!

What you don't get is that we are not intolerant of someone's religion, we are intolerant when that religion performs one human rights abuse after another on orders from the "church's" management. Get a fuckin' clue!

Kaos

Posted by: kaos at May 15, 2008 1:19 PM

tommy, if you are reading this, please get out now. jason's right. you look haggard, spiritually exhausted.

Posted by: longcat war at May 15, 2008 3:53 PM

Like I said before: "You guys have no idea what you are talking about" and to "former or ex-Scientologists" you should know better.

1. Anyone joining the Sea Org or church staff thinking it will be a "walk-in-the-park" is sadly mistaken. People know from the start exactly what they are getting into. Long hours, little pay and extremely high standards are the norm. You voluntarily give up any aspect of mainstream "normalcy" when you join staff or the Sea Org. You dedicate your life to the Org and the people it serves. For every ex-staff member on this thread, there are 10 current staff members who will not give up any aspect of their new lives for anything in the world. How do you think the Church keeps expanding? 7,700 churches worldwide. They "man" these orgs with new staff members. There are people in just about every org right now wanting to join staff. The ex-staffers who are out there simply could not cut it, and in my estimation, are trying to justify their own failures or just trying to get their own 15 minutes of fame.

2. Disconnection: Tommy was not being evasive on this policy. He said it was not as the interviewer "characterized it". This was a 2 minute interview with no chance of any detailed explanation. Disconnection, in Scientology, is a last resort. It is done when the person has someone connected to him that is making it impossible for them to continue in their chosen philisophical pursuit of Scientology. You either "handle or disconnect" and unless that person is really evil, you may go through many, many handlings (for example I had to disconnect from a drug dealer). In most cases the handling is sufficient. It truly is tragic when disconnection involves a family member. But, if disconnection occurs, then that particular family member is just as responsible because basically all they have to say is:"OK, we agree to disagree. Continue on your path..." Disconnection in Scientology is similar to a "born again" Christian foresaking his former life or what the original Buddah did on his path to enlightenment or what successful people do when they discover certain individuals in their life are holding them down. One should read all the LRH policy letters regarding this issue and not the "snippets" that are being supplied here by these "dime store experts."

3. Lastly, I do not doubt that, in some cases, individual staff members say things that are outragous or inappropriate. That cannot be helped or stopped in any organization. Just because some staffer mentions something to a fellow does not mean that it is "Church policy". Whether it is sex or time off or your education those aspects are covered by Church policy, which you agree to follow, when you join staff. If a staff member is "suprised", "shocked" or "intimidated" they only have to look at their own actions. If they are doing their job then no one will ever bother them -- ever. Your job is monitored by statistics. If your "stats" are up then you are virtually untaouchable. That is how the org works. Pure and simple. You are responsible for your own condition.

Posted by: Mike at May 15, 2008 4:27 PM

Mike,

You're every bit as much a damn liar as is Tommy. No one here believes your BS. Just because you fell for it doesn't mean everyone else will!

Don't you have a tree somewhere to run around or some rocks to haul?

Kaos

Posted by: kaos at May 15, 2008 4:50 PM

Koas said:"What you don't get is that we are not intolerant of someone's religion, we are intolerant when that religion performs one human rights abuse after another on orders from the "church's" management."

Kaos, it is you who are spewing Bullshit.

If you truly believed in what you wrote above you would have turned your attention to the Catholic church and their harboring of pedophiles. If you are such a proponent of free speech then you would be attacking Viacom for banning Bunker outright rather than Scientology for exercising their own Constitutionally endowed property rights. Scientology has done nothing except protect itself from critics who continue to recite hearsay (anonymous hearsay at that), half-truths and out-and-out lies as facts.

Posted by: Mike at May 15, 2008 5:14 PM

Koas: to quote a wise man: "I am rubber and you are glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.."

Your response is so typical of most Scientology critics. You only want to believe the pathetic ramblings of some poor "victim". You hear 10 people drone "Scientology is evil" but you completely ignore the millions of happy Scientologists!

You say you want Scientology to allow Freedom of Speech, yet you scream when they excercise their own legal right to protect their own copywritten property, a freedom also guaranteed by the Constitution.

You say LRH's tech has never been proven, well frankly, I don't care. Other than Scientologists there is not another esteemed body of knowledge that can honestly evaluate an auditing session. You had NY Firemen, who couldn't get out of bed, do the Purif and then go back on the job -- while all the medicos sat back and scratched their collective heads.

You can do whatever the hell it is that you do. Scientology is a religion and there is nothing you can do about it.

Now be a good boy, stop the name calling and go back to your home room, recess is over!

Posted by: Mike at May 15, 2008 5:42 PM

Blech. These people are so creepy and are obviously brain dead idiots. I'll never understand how seemingly smart people like Ann Archer and others can be attracted to a crazy cult. Clearly they've been lured in and are being blackmailed. Obviously, it's a sex cult for closetcases like Miscavige and others.

Posted by: gartrip at May 15, 2008 5:42 PM

Mike, thank you for providing yet another wonderful example of that "slippery scientology talk."

"Disconnection: Tommy was not being evasive on this policy. He said it was not as the interviewer 'characterized it'." - Mike

See now, it must be understood that scientologists work hard constructing their responses to avoid technically telling lies, the goal is to just avoid tell the truth.

Kind of like when they say "We do not worship xenu." That doesn't mean you don't BELIEVE in xenu.
Or when a spokesperson said "No lawyer ever delivered a letter." That doesn't mean a letter wasn't SENT by a lawyer.

Nice "communication tech," no?

So Mike, I guess you figure you can sleep well at night knowing that your organization isn't technically composed of liars. But I've come to suspect that you are just fine with the fact that it is filled with deceitfulness, dishonesty and manipulativeness. In fact, it seems many of you take a great deal of pride in using these and other manipulation methods in attempt to control and "handle" people.

It doesn't work so well when too many people are aware of those tricks though, does it? I mean ANYBODY can learn all about those tricks here:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~johanw/CoS/
The stuff on "Reporter-TRS" is especially interesting.

BTW, Mike, you are sounding pretty enturbulated and low on the tone scale.

Posted by: Markay Bayan at May 15, 2008 5:52 PM

Blech. These people are so creepy and are obviously brain dead idiots. I'll never understand how seemingly smart people like Ann Archer and others can be attracted to a crazy cult. Clearly they've been lured in and are being blackmailed. Obviously, it's a sex cult for closetcases like Miscavige and others.

Posted by: gartrip at May 15, 2008 6:02 PM

Mike,

Millions of happy Scientologists? Dude, you really do believe everything your BS CULT tells you. Try about 50-55,000. And now you say there are only about TEN former members who are complaining? I guess you have that anti-scientology filter firmly attatched to your internet access, huh? Do a little reality based research because right now you sound like a totally uneducated, mindless pud.

I never mentioned LRH tech, not once. But I do believe it's fucking hilarious that you fish believe we're all infected by body thetans and that's where all the worlds problems originate. It's ROFL funny that you believe a 75 million year old bad, bad intergalatic meanie created all those thetans by blowing up the citizens of overpopulated planets in our volcanos here on Earth. Do you realize how totally fucking retarded that sounds? Even a little bit?

I also never spoke of freedom of speach, not once. But you bring up a very good point, why does a "church" sell it's scriptures? Why would a "religion" who wants only to clear the whole planet charge $350,000.00 per person to do so? I guess you really only want to clear less than 1/10th of 1% of the population, because that's about how many could actually afford to "go clear." You must have alot of money, otherwise you won't make it all the way "over the bridge!"

Yeah, I believe that the pedophile priests in the Catholic church are evil. But that is a church hundreds of times larger than the CULT you belong to. And the number of victimized parishioners in the Catholic church is a fraction of the number abused by your much smaller CULT. So, per capita, a scientologist has hundreds of times more opportunity of being abused in your CULT than in the Catholic church. PERIOD!

There's nothing I can do about Scientology being considered a religion? Bet again little man. I'm 51, I retired at 47 so I have plently of time and resolve to help the government find its way out of the blackmail the Co$ used to gain tax exemption in the first place. Your CULT is about to undergo the most significant change in its history. Do you think we are not having an impact. That Jason Beghe, Larry Brennan, Lawrence Woodcraft and several other high profile ex-members are speaking out right now is your death nell. Wait until Rinder gets pissed enough to talk and Tommy blows because of all DM's abuse. You guys are fucked!

Kaos

Posted by: kaos at May 15, 2008 6:29 PM

Hi again, Mike!

The subject here is Scientology's abuses, not the Catholic Church, nor Viacom, nor Rwanda, Tibet, China, Myanmar, or puppy abuse. I really doubt that Anonymous is going to take up any other cause any time soon.

Believe me, early on, I tried...

That's right, not long ago, as a Scientologist, I employed the same tactics on many message boards as you are practicing here. Didn't work for me, not gonna work for you.

But I feel I must offer you this warning:
Every time I lied, I damaged only myself, because what is true is what is true for me, and I found out that constantly telling "acceptable truths" (lies) erodes my own perception of what is true. This is what is happening right now to Tommy Davis, just like it happened to Mike Rinder, and all the other ex-staff.

I also got tired of living in fear of entheta. Guess what? It doesn't hurt! Yes, some of it is a bit outlandish, but so much of it rings true, and if you really know what the ex-staff are saying, you'd have to agree.
(Unless you really aren't staff, because if you've been on staff like me, then you'd know how accurate the ex-staff stories really are.)

My guess is that you haven't personally read any of the ex-staff stories out there, so you're refuting things that you don't even know about! Funny, because that's what you accuse Anonymous of doing, isn't it?
But you're getting your stats up by doing it, and that's what really matters to you right now, right?
Well, that's too bad, because, you're not helping anybody.
Really, you're not.

The more you know, the more you know!

bgodley, with eyes wide open, thanks to Anonymous.

Posted by: bgodley at May 15, 2008 6:33 PM

bgodley, I must say that I do kinda miss debating you though, you were quite good at it and convinced a lot of anons to step up their debating skills and be extra diligent about backing up their data.

But, I'm glad to see your writing and debating skills put to a more constructive use for both scientology AND anonymous.

Thank You.

Posted by: Markay Bayan at May 15, 2008 8:11 PM

Dear Village Voice Editors, News Staff, and others:

Thank you for your detailed and incisive coverage of Scientology! I have attached a letter sent to Willamette Week, an independent weekly in Portland, OR, that you and your readers may find interesting.

Best Regards,
-Anonymous from Portland, Oregon

_____________________________________

Dear Jason Howe and WWeek Editors:

Thank you for taking the time to cover our recent protest. I am hoping your news team will continue to consider the perspective and motivation behind our actions:

Firstly, all protesters are gravely concerned about Scientology's practices that discourage (and, quite frankly, attack) personal thought and dialogue. Within its membership, Scientology actively cultivates a 'siege mentality': their own materials actively promote and advocate an 'us vs. them' worldview.

Examples of this mindset can be seen in the Tom Cruise video:
--Cruise's mention of KSW ("Keep Scientology Working") is a "dog-whistle-politics" statement telling members to never question what Scientology leadership tells them, period.

--His comment on a world free of "SPs" (Suppressive People) is troubling. You can find information on what this means from Scientology materials that are publicly available. In sum, if you've ever criticized (or thought critical things) about Scientology, congratulations, you're an SP. History tells us that this mode of thinking can be quite harmful: replace 'witches' and 'non-believers' with 'suppressive people' in history studies about the Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials and you'll see what I'm concerned about.

--Gwen and other members of Scientology's PR arm have previously noted that these points are "taken out of context." That said, any reasonable individual can hear these points, consider them within the context of other publicly available material regarding Scientology's practics and understand that these concerns are more than trivial.

Secondly, Scientology's tactic of "Fair Game" (their term) is one that should concern anyone with an interest in promoting free speech, free belief and the right for news media and the public to openly study (and criticize, if they so choose) Scientology. While Scientology will claim that this tactic is no longer employed, their actions speak otherwise. Of many, two notable examples:

--BBC: In the recent past, their "Panorama" documentary team was deprived of reasonable rights to privacy during their study of Scientology practices. I suspect that most any journalist would not expect to be followed by private investigators back to their hotels and accosted in their lobbies. You may see footage of this on many Internet video sharing sites.

--Time Magazine: After publishing a detailed investigative cover article on Scientology ("The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power"), their company was sued for libel. Years (and over $3 million dollars of Time-Warner's defense resources) later, Scientology lost their case in US appellate court. The lead journalist, Richard Behar, was harassed with Fair Game tactics, but subsequently garnered critical acclaim and awards for his work, including the Conscience-in-Media Award from the American Society of Journalists and Authors. This prize was co-awarded to author Paulette Cooper, whose tales of harassment and suffering are well-documented (see "Operation Freakout," evidence which was discovered during the course of an FBI investigation into
"Operation Snow White"). N.B. Other journalists writing articles critical of Scientology have shared the same Pulizer Prize awarded to Bob Woodward for his work on the Watergate scandal.

In your article, Ms. Barnard is quoted as saying that “[she] celebrate[s] their freedom of speech, but it only takes one of these little guys to be off his Ritalin and then he stuffs his daddy’s gun in his pocket and starts blasting people.” While I'm gratified that we share an appreciation for free speech, her inflammatory, straw-man statement about protestors simply seeks to confirm Scientology's continued practice of defaming their critics with baseless fear-mongering.

One of our participants was asked if he was "doing the dirty work" for some unknown leader. It should be noted that our group requires no leaders: as history has shown, the values of good ideas like freedom of thought and expression are more than powerful enough to motivate individuals to do things that are positive for all members of our community. Ironically, our activities that Scientology calls "enturbulation" actually ends up supporting the notion that people's rights should be protected and respected--including the rights of Scientologists.

On the heels of WWeek's Pulitzer Prize winning expose by Nigel Jaquiss, I would certainly hope that your news team would take time to study our concerns and Scientology's practices more thoroughly in the near future.

Sincere regards,
-A Concerned Citizen of Our Fair City

Posted by: Anon Portland Oregon at May 15, 2008 9:11 PM

For more information on $cientology's lies, go to:

xenu.net
enturbulation.org
exscientologykids.org
youfoundthecard.com

$cientology is a dangerous cult!

Posted by: David at May 16, 2008 12:43 AM

When did I lie? You guys are great at evaluating everybody else. All you have to do is listen to the tape and read the material.

If the Sea Org is so bad then why does Scientology keep expanding? If the RPF is so terrible then why don't local law enforcement step in, like they did with that sect in Utah? It is simply because the police are used to hearing BS! And that is what you guys have. 10 or 15 malcontents. Why don't they all get together and file a class action suit? get it all out in the open? Oh, maybe because it all isn't true. Get over yourselves, get a life. You are the one that is going to grind down. In most Scientology churches the walls are lined with commendations from local community leaders, state and local political officers praising the contributions of the Church. Jason Beghe, in his comments, just reminded everyone that he is a turncoat. This is how he repays the people that stood by his bedside for 3 nights? Most people do not have a psychotic hatred of Scientology like you guys do. This enturbulation that you are causing was actually predicted a year ago in a breifing that I recieved from a group called the International Association of Scientologists (IAS). They said that basically a "shit storm was coming our way so be prepared". Scientology is/was and will ever be prepared for the likes of Anonymous and those that want to destroy the basic fundamental right of religous freedom. Time and time again Scientology has withstood the onslaught of the oppressors and has won. Someone mentioned that Scientology actually 'Blackmailed" the IRS. NO ONE blackmails the IRS, no one. They succeeded because when push comes to shove, there is no case against Scientology. It is a smoke screen.

Posted by: Mike at May 16, 2008 1:37 AM

Other religions doing something bad doesn't make it ok for another religion to do something bad. The Catholic church took care of their issue and punishment was handed down accordingly.

Scientology hasn't been punished NEARLY enough for it's crimes against it's members and critics.

STOP USING OTHER RELIGIONS as an excuse as to why Scientology some how gets a "pass" on being complete poison to it's members and critics.

We're not in grade school. Because one kid doesn't something, that doesn't mean it's ok for you to do it.

"Scientology is a religion and there is nothing you can do about it."
Oh yeah? Try me.

Posted by: Jane Doe at May 16, 2008 1:59 AM

Mike,

One day, you like so many others will be looking to "offload." Just know anonymous will be there for you after all the lies you spew, just as directed by your church, no longer ring true. Make no mistake, everyone on staff eventually gets so abused for so long that they look for a way out. Jason left despite being one of the "golden" members. Others are treated much more harshly.

I know of a member of your "church" in my city who was recently incapacitated and bedridden. While several friends and family members did their best to get by to help her more help was needed. As a parishioner of the "Church" of Scientology, she felt she could depend on her church to render aid just as members of real churches receive everyday. To her surprize she was "offloaded" despite spending many thousands of dollars in "fixed donations." Yeah, some church! Once the money runs out so does the support, get a clue.

Her personal story is one reason we do what we do, despite your CULT telling you otherwise. You attend a CULT that instructs you, in "church" documents, to lie to anyone not a member. That fact is well documented, so why should ANYONE believe one word that spews from your mouth? Your CULT'S ethics pertain only to how you deal with its management, not others, and nearly everybody knows it. You "church" is absolutely NOT growing, despite your claim of MILLIONS of members. That's just another lie the CULT forces down your throat. One day we all hope you wake to the reality that you've thrown years and thousands of dollars into the money pit that is the "Church" of Scientology and put an end to it. Please also address my contention that your "church" wants only to clear the whole planet but yet it charges many thousands of times more than most people can afford to do so. Oh, that's right, YOU CAN'T JUSTIFY THAT BS!

Kaos

Posted by: Kaos at May 16, 2008 9:21 AM

Jane Doe, et al: You say "Try me!" Well...Try! Make my day (to coin a phrase)! What the heck have you guys been doing for the last 6 months -- with little or no effect. Jason Beghe and the Neice are already forgotten figures in the Wonderland that is the US media. They had their 15 minutes.

Now, even the most guible know that web sites are not a good source for unbiased information, especially those that are "anti-" something.

But what is really amazing is this:
-- What more do you know than the IRS?
-- than the Federal Adminsttrative Court of Germany?
-- than the State Dept. of the US Federal Government?
-- than the National Court of Spain?
-- What more do you know than the European Court of Human Rights?
-- What more do you know than the South African Revenue Service?
-- The national court of Portugal?

These are just a few of entities that have investigated Scientology and either granted them tax exemption as a Religion or granted them status as an official Religion, ALL done after the Freakout-Snow-white-Cooper incidents.

Why? Because after all is said and done these professional investigators, people who do this for a living -- not a psychotic obsession, find that there is no substance to all the false accusations, half-truths and hearsay that is bantered about on the internet.

Blaming current Scientology leadership for Freakout-Snow-white-Cooper is like blaming John McCane for Watergate. People associated with the Guardians Office from that day had to undergo extensive Ethics handling with the church if they wanted to continue being Scientologists. Some didn't quite make it, because of the extensive damage they did to the churches reputation. And lest you think it was just a show or a political exercise, even the beloved Mary Sue Hubbard was affected.

Anonymous hides because they do not want the responsibility of disclosure (the libel and slander). They do not want people to know their own selfish vested interests (Can anyone say Big Pharma or the APA?). Nor do they want people to see the hypocrisy of their own actions (how many of you guys are guilty of crimes?).

Suppressive people like to do their work hidden in the background, while honest men toil in the daylight.

Posted by: Mike at May 16, 2008 12:03 PM

Mike, your arguments are unbelievably weak for a scientologist. Have you not taken any of the communication courses yet?
You sound like you believe anything and everything the CoS tells you without question. I guess you figure since they call themselves a "church," it MUST be true. Is that your logic?

Your "church" has a REALLY nasty reputation, Mike. Why is that? Because people are lying? Now how does the CoS manage to offend people so much that they would feel inclined to "lie" about how awful it is? Because LRH says that people don't like to see an organization that "helps" people succeed? Why did LRH have such a low opinion of the general public? Because they are under the influence of "the Merchants of Chaos?" Ah! Paranoia. Yup, LRH says people who don't approve of scientology are criminals who do not like to see people succeed. "If you don't agree with me, it's because you are a bad person."
Yeah, okay - that sounds like a "logical" argument!

Now Mike, why do YOU think the CoS has such a nasty reputation? Or did I get it about right?

You aren't going to last very long at this if you don't brush up your debate skills and learn to back up your claims with adequate 3rd party data references. You will probably become familiar with the phrase "pics, or it didn't happen" any time you fail to provide documentation, proof or evidence for your claims.

For example, can you provide proof that Scientology is currently raising it's membership and "expanding?"
Do you have any data or figures that were compiled by a non-scientology related, trusted and impartial source that we could refer to?
I bet you can't, but I dare you to try. Prove us ALL wrong and be "an hero."

BTW, sheltering funds in real-estate purchases (that tends to remain largely unoccupied) doesn't count as "expanding" in this case - just to be clear.

Good luck to you and thank you for playing.

Posted by: Markay Bayan at May 16, 2008 12:19 PM

Honest men? What have you smoked for lunch? You're CULT is the least honest organized "religion" on Earth. And your "scriptures" tell you to lie! What church does that?

We hide because of your well known harassment tactics, period. If your CULT weren't so secretive and vindictive you wouldn't have us at your door every month. If you didn't force SIX YEAR OLDS to toil like slaves you wouldn't be looking over your shoulder right now. If your "church" wasn't guilty of murder there would be no story. If you didn't force young women to get abortions our 15 minutes really would be up. But you assholes do those things and we'll be here until you stop.

If you're so honorable then why do you feel the need to lie to us? Why do your "scriptures" tell you to do so. You're just angry that you revere a FAT, POCK MARKED, PARANOID, PSYCHOPATHIC, MANIPULATIVE, DEAD BEAT, DRUG ABUSING SCIENCE FICTION WRITER and can't allow yourself to see the truth or you really will feel like the gullible shill you are!

I'm done with the banter, just because you can blackmail, harass and intimidate people doesn't make you a religion. But then Satanism is a religion too, I suppose and that's what LRH truly was, a GREEDY Satanist!

Posted by: Kaos at May 16, 2008 12:36 PM

Mike:
At first, I was hoping you would bring some real discussion to this box, heated, passionate but at least a little more rational than whant we have been getting from other scientolist professional article commenters, but then you said it all, you made clear that no scientologist can make a good debate about anything. And you want to know where you did it? You did when you started following your beloved tech.

"Anonymous hides because they do not want the responsibility of disclosure (the libel and slander). They do not want people to know their own selfish vested interests (Can anyone say Big Pharma or the APA?)."
Allways the big pharma and those damn ps