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Fact Check

NBC's Dateline Airs Misleading UFO Footage

By Tony Ortega, Monday, May. 19 2008 @ 12:30PM
Comments (34)
Categories: Fact Check

Here we go again.

UFOs are easy ratings, so I guess it isn’t surprising that Dateline aired something last night called “10 Close Encounters Caught on Tape.”. To its credit, the NBC program at least made an attempt to provide prosaic explanations for each of the events it presented. In most cases, those explanations were actually pretty good, and the “UFO experts” came off as yahoos.

But when I realized that they were saving for last—the #1 event!—the lame Phoenix Lights, the 1997 event that I helped debunk years ago as a reporter in Arizona, I prepared myself for yet another time that so-called journalists wouldn’t get even the most basic facts right.

And I wasn’t disappointed.

Hey, NBC, try to pay attention: there were TWO separate events on the night of March 13, 1997 over the skies of Arizona. The mysterious “vee” that so many people across the state witnessed was seen over Prescott at about 8:15 p.m. and traveled south over Phoenix at about 8:30 andpassed over Tucson at 8:45. That’s 200 miles in thirty minutes which—check with your calculator if you’d like—means the vee was moving at about 400 miles per hour. Some early eyewitnesses perceived that the vee was high in the sky, others swore it was low and moving very slowly. (And I mention “early” purposely. As the months passed, more and more elaborate—and ridiculous—claims were made by eyewitnesses who were clearly trying to one-up each other.) But as I’ve pointed out many times, the eyeball is a lousy instrument for judging the altitude of point sources of light in a night sky. Simple physics, however, suggests the vee was high in the sky and moving very fast.

As I first revealed in the Phoenix New Times in 1998 on the event’s first anniversary, a young man with a Dobsonian telescope spotted the vee from his backyard, and saw that it was a formation of airplanes. When the young man, Mitch Stanley, tried to contact a city councilwoman making noise about the event, as well as a couple of UFO flim-flam men working the local scene, he was rebuffed. I was the first reporter to talk to him, and, as a telescope builder myself, I made a thorough examination of his instrument and his knowledge of it. (For the inexperienced: a Dobsonian telescope is much easier to move than the crappy department store scope in your garage; it’s child’s play for an experienced observer, like Stanley, to get a good look at passing planes at altitude.) And he had a witness: he had told his mother, who was standing nearby, that the lights were planes. After my story, the Arizona Republic also wrote about Stanley, and also found him impressive. Didn’t you check that out, Dateline?

Back to the night of March 13. News of the 8:30 pm sighting traveled fast, so a large number of people were outside with videocameras when the second and unrelated event, at about 10 pm, happened in the sky southwest of Phoenix. A string of lights appeared in the sky, and slowly sank until they disappeared behind the nearby Estrella Mountain range. This was later shown to be a string of flares dropped by the Maryland Air National Guard over the North Tac military range. Dr. Lynne Kitei can tell NBC that these lights were magical and “intelligent” and later showed up just outside her living room window all she wants, but the videotapes taken that night by many people show without a doubt that this was a string of mundane lights that fell and disappeared behind the range, exactly as a string of flares dropped by the military planes would.

Now, the problem developed when the “flare” explanation emerged first, and took root hard, explaining away the 10 pm sighting. But for the many people who had seen the earlier vee pass directly over their heads, flares made no sense whatsoever. And news organizations never bother to differentiate between the two events or report on the Stanley identification—even the Arizona Republic (a truly pathetic example of a daily newspaper) stopped referring to its earlier solid reporting on the Lights and began promoting it as “unexplained.”

To this day, programs like Dateline invariably question people who saw the earlier “vee” event, and quote them saying that flares couldn’t possibly explain what they saw. They are right. They didn’t see flares, they saw a formation of planes.

In last night’s program, Dateline repeatedly showed people talking about their memories of the 8:30 vee while showing video of the 10 pm flares. Talk about misleading.

By the way, NBC: There was a single camerman who caught the 8:30 vee and the later event. I saw his tape myself. It clearly showed the five lights of the 8:30 vee moving in relation to each other, exactly as you’d expect in a formation of airplanes. Couldn’t get that tape for your program?

As for the people who swore they saw a black triangular shape joining the five lights of the vee, that’s a classic contrast effect of the human eye. In another very telling case, a man who swore he saw a black shape joining the lights of the vee saw it pass directly in front of the moon. At that point, he saw not a black shape but wavy lines pass over the undimmed moon. But rather than conclude that he’d seen the contrails of planes, the man, who had already been worked hard by the flim-flam artists, concluded instead that the pilot of the alien craft had turned his spaceship transparent right at that moment so the man could see the moon through it. How thoughtful!

Perhaps it’s a good thing that NBC has now declared this the number 1 UFO sighting of all time. It’s one of the very few so well checked-out by reporters, and one of the few that has been so thoroughly debunked. But you won’t hear that from the networks, who can’t get enough of the ratings that come with “the unexplained.”

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More About:

  • Mitch Stanley
  • Prescott
  • Lynne Kitei
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Comments (34)

AmazingGrey says:

What! A Dateline UFO special contains erroneous information? I'd never have guessed. It's so fun for many people to just believe in this stuff, what's the harm?

Posted On: Monday, May. 19 2008 @ 1:30PM
Robert Eckert says:

Time and time again you skeptics reject hearsay and you expect us to believe your Dobson guy because you're such an expert?

Posted On: Monday, May. 19 2008 @ 3:27PM
dinotheorist says:

I saw one program years ago that not only mentioned the "vee," but compared it to the Hudson Valley lights of the winter of 83-84, which I witnessed. The most interesting parallel that I found was that the first sightings were difficult to explain as ordinary aircraft, and subsequent sightings known to be caused by ordinary aircraft coincidentally appeared shortly afterward. So now we got a guy swearing that the 8:15-8:40 vee had to be a bunch of airplanes? That's probably because the same piece of disinformation worked so well for the Hudson Valley lights. And, it might satisfy a large portion of those not-so-ignorant people who think that the timing of the flares was pretty wierd.

Posted On: Monday, May. 19 2008 @ 4:21PM
Retired USAF says:

So you are stating anything seen through a Dobsonian telescope must be taken as fact. Give me a break. You need to do a better job of debunking. We're tired of hearing there is no such thing as credible observation when it comes to this phenomenon. Astronomers (professional or amateur) probably wouldn't know the difference between an A-10 and the Good Year blimp. Just ask James McGaha.

Posted On: Monday, May. 19 2008 @ 5:06PM
Anonymous says:

I'm glad there were people here who felt the same way I did after reading this article. Your article, Mr. Ortega is no better than the conspiracy articles trying to prove the lights to be UFOs. So why are we to believe you and your witnesses?

Posted On: Monday, May. 19 2008 @ 6:35PM
Joe says:

Your article is misleading, it...Mr Ortega is like you....a joke. Who are you to tell us to believe you and your telescope witness. Please refer me to other great articles you have written.

Posted On: Monday, May. 19 2008 @ 6:40PM
Anonymous says:

so nice to hear that it is not a ufo, I think maybe mankind is behind all ufo right now... all these things are not clear in the photo's, and in Germany it showed that tape of lights strung together, leaving the forest, and flooting up to the air! until one is on tv, clear and with the the little green man waving, most people will not beleive it to be true. we would pay attention and help them out to go back where they came from!

Posted On: Monday, May. 19 2008 @ 7:17PM
Jeff says:

So you are trying to debunk the then Governor of phoenix? Did you really debunk a governor who has gone on all the major news channels and said he also saw the massive "V" pass over him. In his conclusion there is no way it was made on this earth. But then again, you already "debunked" a governor. Sorry, I don't buy your story. The NBC UFO special, was poor quality and I'll give you that. Why did they make experts looks like fools... When police officers, military people and others in the highest levels of government tell you these things exist. Do something called listen.

Posted On: Monday, May. 19 2008 @ 7:31PM
Craig Tanner says:

Truly pathetic... another example of first, reaching a conclusion based on your own agenda/belief system and then picking whatever scant evidence you can muster out of the collective to protect yourself. If what you are saying is even remotely possible then the Phoenix Lights event would be regularly repeated in major cities all across the country every time a formation of planes flew over. Hundreds of witnesses are wrong but your one source trumps all of the rest of the anecdotal reports. I have some southern swamp gas you can use for you future debunking.

Fortunately there are and have been lots folks with more courage than you who are willing to be open and vulnerable to the mysterious otherwise we would all still be huddling in caves....Craig

Posted On: Monday, May. 19 2008 @ 8:34PM
Kirk says:

The Dateline report was weak because these reporter don't know anything about UFOs. The best documented UFO case is the Belgium UFO which was seen by hundreds of witnesses, caught on film, and picked up on radar. The best footage is the Nellis UFO which was filmed in broad daylight by military cameras. The Nellis footage is owned by Paramont, so maybe that is why NBC did not use it.

Posted On: Monday, May. 19 2008 @ 8:46PM
Mister says:

Hello moronic author of this article-
with a government that undeniably would love to explain away a suspected alien prescense in our skies... if it was such a factually simple expalanation as a formation of planes, why would they not be able to prove such all these years later? Why do you so adamantly accept the testimony of one observer over those of hundreds, possibly thousands of others?

Why? I'll tell you why. Two reasons... A) the idea of even such a POSIBILLITY is so starting to your narrowly framed mind that you desire an explanation as much as those "flim-flams" are so desperate for the alien theory... or, B) you are some form of disinformation.

Either way, and even if I'm wrong, this is a poorly written opinionated article of someone who is clearly misinformed, intentionally or not.

Good day

Posted On: Tuesday, May. 20 2008 @ 12:10AM
Derr says:

I am going to give you the basic form letter introduction i have sent out in the past to ufo researchers and others to aid them to see what the latest ufo research by me-- a real ufo researcher since 1991 -- is coming into being...serious work, serious research and reasons to seriously worry. You and your contacts, associates have a right to know what you are dealing with in this world should you be called out to investigate more ufo reported sightings... i hope this helps... any of my work can be printed in your newspapers etc if you so wish. sincerely, steve tobias, USA
email sent out last month....april 2008 :
The situation in the world is becoming critical, due to the cover up about ufos and the increasing frequency of reported lights being seen. I urge you all to review the youtube video online called NASA Worm or NASA UFO Worm, it reveals on nasa film a vehicle being brought to our planet or taking biomass material from Earth to elsewhere, by a UFO Tow Tug Vehicle, this orange orb doesnt move while the NASA vehicle is overheard in normal orbital flight path. The ufo knows the NASA vehicle will soon be out of range of its activities and then it will proceed...what the NASA crew sees and focuses on is the UFO Cargo ship. When the UFO Towing vessel releases it and move off to sit and wait, the cargo ship rolls gently in zero- G weightlessnes but its mass is huge and it will arc and the cargo holds will move about inside. The ufo cago ship was a flexible skinned type construction and it makes guessing the cargo potentially more exotic as in life forms for planting on our planet, as in our seas. I am sorry to have to shock someof you this way with the info but this is just the tip of the ufo research i have done in last 15 years of which the last 2 years have been very successful thanks in part to new tech such as YOUTUBE.com being online. For the more important info on my assumption we are being now under invasion by an Alien Race google my links to my comments by using google search.
the phrases to google are : steve tobias ufo,or, new jersey ufo.-- DERR

Posted by: steve tobias

Posted On: Tuesday, May. 20 2008 @ 1:33AM
Al R says:

I have seen and videotaped the video of the large V-shaped aerial display, Mr. Ortega talks about. His theory that it is five airplanes flying very close to each other is patently wrong. The lights keep a totally steady distance to one another - so if the lights had been airplanes, you would never have seen this steady and fixed distance between the lights. The V-shaped (according to numerous witnesses) craft was clearly an unidentified flying object! And, remember, John Fife Symington, a former, experienced U.S. Air Force pilot (then, Arizona Governor), who also witnessed the V-shaped UFO - never mentioned that it could have been airplanes he saw. And, he should know what he is talking about! So, this article is a perfect example of what sort of arguments and disinformation UFO debunkers (here, Mr. Ortega) use. Dinotheorist, Retired USAF and Craig Tanner lay this out perfectly in the above comments. People who give a UFO sighting an Earthly explanation are always believed by UFO debunkers - without any question, whatsoever! That is the modus operandi of the UFO debunker.

Posted On: Tuesday, May. 20 2008 @ 3:17AM
MCW says:

I have to agree with most of these posts. To dismiss so many eyewitnesses, especially when so many high-ranking military officers have come forward in the last few years, is foolish. The 'formation of planes' explaination just doesn't wash. I was unaware that planes could hover, with the exception of the harrier jet, which can only hover several feet above the ground. Look at the footage. They are virtually stationary! If you're going to be a debunker, you should have some better arguments, because the public simply isn't buying official expainations any longer.

Posted On: Tuesday, May. 20 2008 @ 4:57AM
john says:

About all you 'debunked,' is that NBC is a 2nd rate news source--at best...you also show that maybe your resume never made it past a first level NBC HR person for a phone interview, and that you may have problems with this...that's not bad..you're lucky..don't be sad.

This story shows that you are way out of your element on the subject matter...so much so, that it's beyond laughable...

...wow, I'm wasting my time even pondering why this crap is so poorly thought out...

Posted On: Tuesday, May. 20 2008 @ 6:57AM
Anonymous says:

When disclosure occurs, which will be very soon, are you going to bury your head in the sand, Mr. Ortega?

My guess is that your tiny brain won't be able to handle the reality and you'll end up in a mental institution!

Posted On: Tuesday, May. 20 2008 @ 7:26AM
steveo says:

He collects government royalties also.

Posted On: Tuesday, May. 20 2008 @ 8:09AM
doug says:

I am unaware of any jets that can fly 4000 mph. That is about Mach 6. Not impossible, but so many of them?!

Posted On: Tuesday, May. 20 2008 @ 1:21PM
Anonymous says:

Oh, come on!!! Answer this: if the triangular-shaped "object" moving over Phoenix was a formation of planes, WHOSE planes were they? And why didn't the pilots or the air force just speak up and say that outright at the time?? Tony, you need to supply a LOT more facts before you go debunking whatever occurred that night . . .

Posted On: Tuesday, May. 20 2008 @ 4:50PM
Nick says:

I love this. So many people are against this terrible article. I was expecting everybody and there mothers to take his side, but im starting to believe that the public is finally waking up. I would like to state that the recent ufo hoax event in phoenix actually proves that the old phoenix event could NOT have been flares. The flares that were let go in a backyard were all tied together so they would not drift apart and still they drifted randomly, crossing eachother in random formations and the likes. The giant VEE stayed in formation, where was the drifting that we saw in the recent phoenix event? EXPLAIN THAT

Posted On: Tuesday, May. 20 2008 @ 6:22PM
Richard says:

The real horror of the Dateline segment was having to sit through so many crappy UFO puns just to see footage that's been done to death elsewhere.

If this is what passes for humor among newscasters, it explains perfectly why I spend my viewing time laughing at them and not with them.

Like most things the mainstream press tosses out as journalism, this was slip-shod at best.

Posted On: Tuesday, May. 20 2008 @ 10:08PM
Lisa says:

This Voice piece is incredibly shoddy journalism. The flares theory has been debunked countless times, and all the other "points" in this amateurish article. No wonder so nfew read the Voice anymore. Hire some real journalists, people!

Anybody who wants some actual FACTS about The Phoenix Lights event....rent the new documentary that just came out on DVD, "The Phoenix Lights."

Posted On: Wednesday, May. 21 2008 @ 8:13AM
Aidemton says:

This article is an example of the large amount of disinformation being spread by the government and the ignorant. I have included some information that this author would either not look refused to include in his article because this would hurt his case which is not very good to begin with. I'm also relieved to see that so many people are seeing the truth and are not listening to false information like that which is in this article.

This one sighting was actually witnessed by a group or realtors on the edge phoenix or in a nearby suburb before the lights flew over Phoenix. They were outside for some type of open house or business meeting and waiting to observe the Hale-Bopp comet. When they were interviewed they actually said the thing was so close they could see the color of the craft which appeared to be “a shotgun black”(black/purplish hint). They also said that there appeared to be portholes in the side of the craft and “silhouettes of people”(Ref. Interview with investigator Billy Booth) this was also witnessed by other people in this neighborhood saying that they could not see from one end of it to the other estimating it to be easily over a mile wide. They also made the reference that it was about 2000 feet high and many skeptics are questioning how they can be sure the people’s testimony was accurate? It is a little less than 1/3 of a mile but just to put it into perspective bases on your knowledge if a 747 jet flew over your head at 1/3 of a mile in height would you be at a loss for the describing the distance and mistaking that for 5 miles or 10 miles? Basically saying 2000ft is saying it was flying very low, low enough to get a good description without the aid of binoculars or any other magnifying apparatus. Anybody with decent vision and two healthy eyes facing forward giving them stereoscopic vision (which is for judging distance) would not have a hard time being able to estimate 2000 feet.

Among the most reliable witnesses of the craft’s movements that first night were two airplane pilots, one retired from an airline, and another from Vietnam, who was also a U. S. Marshall. Though seeing the object at different times and places, both men described a craft of “immense size,” measuring up to a mile long. The Marshall could also see the city lights of Phoenix reflecting from the bottom of the massive object, while it “blocked out the stars”(Billy Booth article). Even though you are just clearly going to write this off as false information and not credible people (cops, doctors, military personal) why don’t you take the time to get a book and read the interview or get a DVD and watch them before you discredit someone or base your answers on facts instead of what is clearly false.

To get an accurate representation of where an event occurs within space-time, triangulation is a good method. This is the method by which GPS. can accurately locate an object (http://www.beaglesoft.com/gpstechnology.htm). You need 3 different witnesses from 3 different points in order to do this. The fact you have one witness who claims he saw something against 100’s of other witnesses is very weak evidence for it cannot be verified by anyone else. Imagine a crime takes place and you have 100 witnesses who say they saw something and one other witness who claims he saw something else against the other 100; you have to ask yourself who is telling the truth? (This next quote is from Steve Lantz, Debunking the Debunkers): “After the Phoenix Lights event, a young man came forward and claimed that he viewed the Phoenix Lights using a Celestion Telescope and saw they were a fleet of Cessnas flying in formation. Despite thousands of witness reports to the contrary, local media focused on this singular report. First of all, to suggest that you could follow a moving Cessna with a Telescope is ridiculous. I personally own a telescope and there is no way you could follow a moving aircraft and focus in on it, especially at night. Based on this statement alone I would seriously question anything this witness had to say.

First you have to convince me that a group of pilots would be stupid enough and brazen enough to think they could pull off such an elaborate hoax without being caught. Every pilot knows that penetrating Class B airspace (a 30-mile protective veil that surrounds every major airport in the country) without a proper ATC clearance would get them into serious trouble. There is no way a fleet of Cessnas could fly silently, even with the engines running at idle, and avoid radar detection.

A fleet of aircraft entering Class B airspace without communication or clearance would be considered a serious threat and they most certainly would have been forced down by military pilots. Once on the ground the perpetrators would be arrested, heavily fined and face possible prosecution and prison time. The FAA would permanently suspend their licenses due to the magnitude of the crime. They would be thrashed by the media and lynched by the public.

Why would any pilot risk everything, believing that they could successfully pull off such an elaborate hoax, get away with it, go home, watch the 10′oclock news and have a nice laugh? Nobody ever got caught and nobody ever came forward to say, “we did it.” Private pilots would never take such a risk, commercial pilots would never risk their flying careers, and airline pilots are constantly monitored by ATC. They would never attempt such a thing especially with a plane loaded with passengers. Obviously this witness concocted the entire story to get his mug on the six o’clock news!”

Posted On: Wednesday, May. 21 2008 @ 9:29AM
USMC says:

Based on the response to this article, I doubt Ortega will be writing more UFO pieces. He's done a real good job of hurting his credibility.

Posted On: Thursday, May. 22 2008 @ 12:16AM
Prometheus says:

"Dr. Lynne Kitei can tell NBC that these lights were magical and “intelligent” and later showed up just outside her living room window all she wants"


Someone needs to do their homework. If you would of read Kitei's book, then you would know the claim is that the lights appeared before her home years before the Phoenix Lights event, which is supported by photographic evidence.

Do you really think that people are so stupid as to not realize that you are only picking out select little tid bits to support an obvious bias versus being truly objective? And some of those tid bits are verifiably wrong!

What's with this "Trained Observer" crap? So... Police Officer's, Air Traffic Controllers, Military, Prior Military, and Symington (prior Air Force pilot) don't qualify as "Trained Observers" but one guy with a scope and the likes of James Mcgaha are?

This article is full of lose!

Posted On: Thursday, May. 22 2008 @ 10:42AM
David says:

Did anyone besides Mitch Stanley report seeing a formation of aircraft around 8:30pm? It seems not, or we certainly would have been told. How many thousands of people reported seeing a large wedge shaped craft passing over the city that blocked out the stars between it's lights? How is it that the unsupported claim of one person could outweigh the video and corroborating eyewitness testimony of so many? Regardless of what is said, I don't believe it can and to say it does sounds absolutely rediculous to me.

Posted On: Thursday, May. 22 2008 @ 8:03PM
bek says:

stop lieing to the american people, give it up already. No more lies, and No more stupid debunking stories, ok, UFO's are REAL! The american people know it, and you know it! Short and simple.

Posted On: Thursday, May. 22 2008 @ 11:53PM
MarkD says:

There's lots of UFO footage on youtube. some clearly fakes. others perplex the mind. I suggest the author of this article start debunking them one at a time. If he can find a logical explanation for the NASA tether incident i'd be interested.

Posted On: Friday, May. 23 2008 @ 3:03PM
Greg says:

I wonder if Tony Ortega has already made his mind up about the entire body of strange aeronautical phenomena that has been documented around the world since man has been drawing on cave walls.

Skepticism is always a good idea when delving into the UFO phenomenon. I just get the impression Mr. Ortega has already concluded there's nothing new under the sun. The more you look though, the evidence seems to say otherwise.

Posted On: Friday, May. 23 2008 @ 9:26PM
Anonymous says:

Reading the responses to this article has quickly filled my lulz quota for the night. Thanks for supplying me with such a bountiful source of entertainment.

Posted On: Wednesday, Jun. 4 2008 @ 4:12AM
William says:

I agree that their are Alien spacecraft and I believe we have the technology to make one too. Being a former jet engine mechanic for the air force I believe it is possible, but they could not be manned by anything living with some of the maneuvers I have seen on certain videos. Unless it was unmanned or we developed certain technologies, because the sudden acceleration would probably cause someone to pass out instantly or crush their body. The SR-71 could go faster than mach 3, but that is gradually building up too that speed. I don't know it's max speed, because it is classified, but it does go faster than mach 3. I don't think the government intentionally wants to hide things from us, but from our enemies. If you think about it the only reason they would continue research would be to aquire new technology and keep it from the enemy so we remain superior and also to figure out if it is hostile, because it is in our airspace.

Posted On: Friday, Jun. 20 2008 @ 10:38AM
massey says:

wow! poorly thought out disimformation. never mind what i personally saw from the clips or what everyone in america saw from their livingrooms or those who saw it first hand. my arguement is based on the fact that the FAA has designated flight paths that forbid the clustering of airplanes and that they follow a course much like air highways. they do intersect, but at different altitudes of 1 mile or greater to insure flight safety. airplanes do not hover. and until recently only continental commercial flights have been equipped with flares for the purpose of warding off heat seeking missiles.

Posted On: Monday, Jul. 21 2008 @ 3:00AM
c. moore says:

Try watching this "skeptical video":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0We40rEs0ZY

Pretty much corroborates Mr Ortega's article.

Now, all believers go back and put on your tinfoil hats.

Posted On: Monday, Sep. 1 2008 @ 12:20AM
an0n says:

Agreed there are numerous individuals running about, declaring they've encountered objects or beings for which they have no explenation for, thus calling them ufos and aliens. If that person has nothing to compare them to, yes they are correct, in that they, ARE FOREIGN TO THEM. However, this does not mean that the object (or thing) in question, is of extraterrestrial origin. Ok, having said that, let us for a moment consider that ALL of the foreign objects photographed, video recorded, and or drawn by witnesses from around the world are military creations. Is that logical or even rational? Is it logical to believe that the knowledge to build an extraordinarily advance technological craft, spontaneously manifested. Would be quite impressive but, is this actually the case? Sorry debunkers and finatical sceptics, but no. By now you all reading this should already be familiar with the Disclosure Project created in 2001 by a group of 400 or more witnesses from the military, intelligence, governmental, scientific, and corporate communities. It is no longer a debate whether extraterrestrials exist regardless of the hue of debunkers and sceptics scattered about. The focus now is about their purpose here, our interaction with them, and relationship to them. Granted much but, not all, of the footage and eye witness accounts of strange crafts are military creations, however the technology to CREATE those particular crafts, came from back-engineering downed extraterrestrial crafts as well as the interaction with ets. We are far past toying with the notion of belief because blind belief is comprised of ethos, religious paradgyms, and the abdication of using logic & reasoning.

It's ok debunkers and sceptics you can spend your time arguing and misdirecting those whom are struggling to get credible evidence to validate what their higher selves already know. Just know that many got past that obscure wall of debris you help maintain.

http://www.disclosureproject.org/

Posted On: Saturday, Sep. 6 2008 @ 5:05AM

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