Goldberg and Big Oil

I am always alarmed when I read such obvious logical fallacies in the newspaper as the one committed by Jonah Goldberg in his column in Monday morning's editorial. In it, Goldberg compares Big Oil companies to mousetrap inventors and commits the fallacy of faulty comparison. This occurs when one attempts to compare two things which are not comparable — e.g., comparing apples with oranges — and then building an argument around the results of the comparison.

For Goldberg's comparison to be fair, he would have to argue that mousetrap manufacturing and distribution is vital for the economic survival of 300 million people and without it, tens of millions would die from starvation, disease and the elements as food transportation, emergency services and utilities begin to shut down. This, of course, would only occur after the total collapse of the economy, mass panic, riots and food hoarding.

Now let's say that the inventor of his fabulous new mousetrap calls a meeting of all the other mousetrap manufacturers, forms a consortium, and colludes with them to artificially inflate the value of mousetraps citing "demand" and "market speculation." The actual cost of manufacturing and distributing the mousetraps is irrelevant to the prices charged. "It's the market's fault!" they protest, and shrug their shoulders as the economy stumbles and millions are driven into poverty while they reap record profits. Brave and noble aged gentlemen who fought so bravely for our country will sigh wistfully in remembrance of a time when everyone in the nation, including mousetrap manufacturers, came together for the common good of the people in times of war and all behaved as moral and ethical human beings.

Then there are the "people," who provide transportation infrastructure, safety, military support and regulations to the mousetrap manufacturers at no cost to them, and thus ensure a safe and secure market for mousetraps. If any of these people dare criticize the mousetrap manufacturers for their unfair business practices and grossly inflated profits, then these big companies will pay a small part of their great profits to Public Relations companies to spin misinformation to the public attacking these people as "anti-business" and "communists" who want to destroy the cherished inalienable rights of corporations to make as much profit as they want, even if it is ultimately unsustainable and self-destructive to the society in which these manufacturers operate.

Now, replace "Mousetrap" with "oil," and you have a good idea of how some in the media want to bring the good people of our nation to heel.

Gregory Evans
University of New Mexico

Go Roy!

Wonderful writing as usual.

Good stuff as always, Roy. I admire your fortitude for sifting through it all and plucking out the solids.

That whipper-snapper!

I was disappointed to learn this is not by the famous actress Jennifer Rubin (from A Nightmare on Elm Street 3: Dream Warriors) but another Jennifer Rubin entirely, who is a writer from Virginia and hates Ann Coulter but is still a barking GOP wingnut.

That's sad, because the famous Jennifer Rubin will come to your party if you want.

Do you hippy queers ever get any of this stuff right? Maybe if you spent more time paying attention to current events, and less time waiting around the glory hole, you'ld understand that it's the GOVERNMENT that makes EVERYTHING more expensive. The Feds and the States are getting about 80 cents on every gallon. The oil companies get about 8 cents on every gallon. Hey, I know, maybe if you little sissy freaks would stop pissing all over yourselves, every time we attempt to drill OUR OWN oil, the price would come down? I thought you liked "drilling"?

I can't believe Roy Edroso voluntarily agreed to take this gig. There isn't enough money in the world to make it worth someone's while to pick through the garbage he now must read each week.

I am always alarmed when I read such obvious logical fallacies in the newspaper as the one committed by Gregory Evans in his strange comment above.

What do mousetraps have to do with oil? Nothing obviously but Greg doesn't let that spoil his fun though he appears to have a little trouble with the concept of capitalism.

Then Greg says "...mousetrap manufacturing and distribution is vital for the economic survival of 300 million people and without it, tens of millions would die from starvation, disease and the elements as food transportation, emergency services and utilities begin to shut down. This, of course, would only occur after the total collapse of the economy, mass panic, riots and food hoarding."

What?

Capitalism is about making money. Is there any evidence that any oil company takes a personal or social interest in its' customers? Of course not. Oil companies, like mousetrap distributors, want to sell the most amount of product at the highest possible price. Period.

Greg is very confused. If he wants to find an actual cartel maybe he should consider, like you know, OPEC. That entity also has nothing to do mousetraps but at least if Greg studied this and thought about the consequences of OPEC's actions he wouldn't be committing a falacy.

Gregory are you a student or a professor? Cause if you are a student you have along way to go in your learning. However, if you are a professor, you stupidity is understandable as a leftist POS.

I find it disturbing that you lefties are NOT disturbed by the connection between Obama, Wright, and terrorists (including Hezbolla, Ayers, Hamas, etc.). Your mentality is obviously "if the right wing is for it, I'm against it", which is fine for you. If you want to cut of your nose to spite your face, so be it, but don't cut off MY nose too.

As far as Big Oil goes, you sound just like Bill O'Reilly (I'm sure you know who he is). IF it is true that they have about an 8.5% profit margin (which is a relatively low rate), and they are making their extreme profits based on volume, again, so be it. No one has demonstrated that they are fudging that number, though it has been tried many times. In which case, their extreme profits are not excessive profits, and no one has any complaints against them. It's fairly obvious that regulatory restrictions (no drilling in ANWR, no coastal drilling, declare a national park where the only field of Clean Coal in the U.S. exists, and the Riadis own the rights to the rest of the world supply, etc.) have more of an impact on energy prices than just corporate greed (restrict supply of a product that is in high demand, and prices will increase).

And go ahead and tax the corporations like Hillary wants to do. Remember, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A CORPORATE TAX. Any tax or government regulatory fee is just an item on the Expense side of the corporate ledger, like office rent, equipment costs, salary, insurance benefits, etc. They all get rolled into the price of the product, and the consumer pays the tax through higher prices. So if you want to INCREASE the cost of gasoline at the pump, levy all the taxes you can think of.

The one good thing about higher oil prices is that it now becomes more feasible to develop alternative enery sources. In terms of price/performance, oil has historically been orders of magnitude cheaper than other sources. That advantage (for oil companies) is disappearing, so Big Oil may just have been responsible for its own demise. Unfortunately for many, it will still take decades before any new technology becomes extensively available.

Remind me, who owns these 'evil oil companies that are making record profits'?

Oh right, they are publicly traded companies that are owned by shareholders, including individual investors, pension funds, mutual funds, etc.

And who owns these pension funds, mutual funds, etc?

Right, you and me.

I realize economics, understanding of the economy, and knowledge of how markets work are generally outside the understanding of those on the left, but this is something to keep in mind when moaning about 'big oil', 'big pharma', and 'big healthcare'.

So here's some advice - if you want to change the way these companies do business or share in their profits, become an owner (ie, buy stock). If you want to lessen their influence on our lives through govt intervention, push for drilling in ANWAR or increasing construction of nuclear plants.

Taxing people and corporations does not make things more productive and often has unintended consequences.

Roy Edroso's writing is an elixir. The unaware wingnuts debating in the comment thread is just more whipped cream on the sundae. It's like extra chocolate chips !!!!

Keep it up, morans ...

Um, yeah... so you don't like the guy. Would anybody have bothered looking at this page if it weren't for the brightly-colored cartoon thing?

"Right, you and me".

yes yes think of the widows and orphans that own all of the Exxon stock! all those rich diamond wearing bastards!

soak their money away!

I realize economics, understanding of the economy, and knowledge of how markets work are generally outside the understanding of those on the left, but this is something to keep in mind when moaning about 'big oil', 'big pharma', and 'big healthcare'.

I realize that reality is generally outside the understanding of those on the right, but try to remember that when it comes to oil (energy) and healthcare (that includes pharma) that there is no free market. One simply cannot say "no" to these huge cabals and there is no competition....no choice of any significance to choose from. Us little stupid lefties....and many a rightie... see Exxon make more money than God AND oil is still $126 a barrel and think "Wait a moment!". The invisible hand of Adam Smith is not just invisible....it doesn't exist here.

We also know that drilling in ANWARE will give us some still equally expensive oil for about 20 minutes. Nuclear Power is a disaster waiting to happen (you won't mind that spent fuel rod cooling facility in your back yard, will you?) And I'm sure everyone who drives has $$$$$ to buy Chevron stock....don't they?

Let's see, Bush I raised taxes a bit and everyone benefited. Clinton raised taxes like .03% or something, and all boats (even those of wealthy people) rose. Please try to remember it has been proven twice now that the Laffer Curve is and was a joke with no basis in reality.... which must be why righties still think it's real.

"Taxing people and corporations does not make things more productive and often has unintended consequences."

Has anyone ever argued that taxation increases productivity? I thought taxes were the means by which we pay for the things we want our society to have...you know, things like roads, bridges, drinkable water, funding for various and sundry other programs that benefit the commonweal...you know, public works.

Huh. I would have thought that touching the Village Voice, even virtually, would have caused wingnuts' hands to sizzle and smoke, like a vampire touching a cross. But here they are in the comments section. Learn somethin new every day, I guess.

if it weren't for the brightly-colored cartoon thing?

You mean Tom Tomorrow's drawing? He's the Best! How clueless can you be to not know who he is?

Is it just a coincidence that conservatives became champions of government sponsored market control of our energy sector when Big Oil took over the Republican Party? Come to think of it, that seems to be about the same time they fell in love with Bigger Government, deficit spending, anti-environmentalism, wire-tapping citizens, and foreign entanglements on behalf of their corporate benefactors.

In the free marketplace of ideas, I think Jonah and the rest of the right wing apologists would starve without their subsidized corporate welfare checks. Ain't the benefits of psuedo-capitalism grand?

Hey, the wingnuts really don't like to be made fun of, do they? So they defend the Bushists and oil profiteering and then claim to be libertarians. Snort!

"

Do you hippy queers ever get any of this stuff right? Maybe if you spent more time paying attention to current events, and less time waiting around the glory hole, you'ld understand that it's the GOVERNMENT that makes EVERYTHING more expensive... Hey, I know, maybe if you little sissy freaks would stop pissing all over yourselves, every time we attempt to drill OUR OWN oil, the price would come down? I thought you liked "drilling"?

Posted by: Timothy L. Pennell at May 13, 2008 7:35 AM"

I just thought we should all have a chance to read this post again. It so perfectly sums up right wing arguments in general.

I find it disturbing that you lefties are NOT disturbed by the connection between Obama, Wright, and terrorists (including Hezbolla, Ayers, Hamas, etc.).

what connection other than the collective screeching of wingnuts trying to link them? and maybe having occasionally sat in some of the same rooms. Not like all those patriotic folks from the Reagan and Bush I years who were only actively arming, training and providing diplomatic cover for them, but hey, let's not let a little inconvenient stuff like history get in the way of a little quasi-racist paranoia about a conspiracy of scary brown people

Are you looking for suggestions? Because what I would love is if you put those tags in where if you hold your mouse over the link the tag appears. I don't mean showing the URL, but rather a tag you fill in yourself. Usually they are yellow.

Because when a link is to, say, a UTube clip, I have no idea what it is going to be. I'd have to click it and go there and wait for it to load before I know if I am interested. But if the tag pops up and says "Michelle Malkin cheerleading" then I know to stay far away.

Timothy Pennell is a nasty little man. Yes, Roy, I don't know how you can stand to wade through all this right-wing shit. America is such a tiresome country. I think I will retreat to my villa in Bitchistan, at least until the election is over.

Just curious. Is there a column where a snipe conservative makes fun of the unhinged Bush haters on the nutroot blogs? Is there such a thing as "equal time" here? You tell, me. I don't do a Village Voice much. After all, I don't do drugs.

Just curious. Is there a column where a snipe conservative

You feel free to go on a hunt for this snipe.

Congratulations on a worthy debut.

The wonder of someone voluntarily opting to expose their delicate neurons to the psychic reek of all that neocon tripe is only exceeded by the amusement of perusing all the proudly idiotic comments from those sad specimens willing to openly defend it. Don't anyone dare tell them that it's 2008, now - just let them keep right on foaming at the mouth. It's like a Political-Science geek-show, free of charge!

There's a place for these people, a true haven of comfort for wingnuts - & it's called Medieval Europe. No non-whites, no feminism, no DFH's, & best of all, no separation of Church & State!

Your dangerous mission conducting an anthropoligical study of us conservatives was quite an achievement! However, I believe that, your being an outsider, your account of the "other" can only amount to an illegitimate act of "Conserventalism." Anything you say is obviously tainted by your narrow, fascist viewpoint.

Congrats Roy.

One more time!

Do you hippy queers ever get any of this stuff right? Maybe if you spent more time paying attention to current events, and less time waiting around the glory hole, you'ld understand that it's the GOVERNMENT that makes EVERYTHING more expensive... Hey, I know, maybe if you little sissy freaks would stop pissing all over yourselves, every time we attempt to drill OUR OWN oil, the price would come down? I thought you liked "drilling"?

Posted by: Timothy L. Pennell at May 13, 2008 7:35 AM"

I love this post! Tells us so much about Timmy Pennell, doesn't it?

How does he know what a "glory hole" is anyway?

What do you expect from Goldberg, he went to a girl's college

I have the feeling our Tim knows *exactly* what a glory hole is. It's pretty typical that these guys think they're insulting us by calling us "queers" but haven't noticed that we don't mind being queer in the slightest.

Thank you Green Eagle, AlbertCat and Dr Zen for making my day, that was a much needed laugh.

First, a note to everyone: it's "ANWR", for Alaska National Wildlife Refuge.

Second, a note to wingnuts who think that exploratory drilling in ANWR will magically push gas back down to $1.99/gal for the summer driving season: it won't. No one knows how much oil, or of what quality, is there. Even if there's a bonanza of light sweet crude, and even if the oil companies rush to start full-scale drilling, the first barrels from any ANWR find are literally years from making it to refineries.

I laugh ( or cry) when the oil companies say thay are making only a small markup on gas.
US is supposed to be supplying 65% of the US demand from domestic sources. I guess it is more profitable to sell it to China at the world market price than it is to sell it to their own gas stations at Cost + profit. I guess they trade oil, probably to Iran so that Iran can sell it to China and India, and then have Iran ship an equal amount back to us at world market prices. What a racket. The pennies on a dollar profit is actually dollars ona dollar.

Then too I uderstand that a good portion of the current Alaska pipeline oil stops at Seattle and is shipped to Japan and the far east at world market prices, instread of to California and the mid west to alleviate the prices there.

Its not Govt. its the Oil company greed. The US could cause our gas prices to drop simply by mandating that domestic oil not be exported or traded.

Blaming Big Oil is just a scapegoat people use in an effort not to be at fault for their own consumer greed. Profts are always reported in dollars, in percentages they are average at best.

Defending Big Oil? www.sifallorsum.com/oil.html

I found a web site is Thailand that sells those fish oil pills that take care of the fatty acids. I am not sure that they are healthy to eat but I am tempted by the cost. Any suggestion how to have better control over the food safety of my diet supplements?