This weekend of tea parties is just the first of many. Hard working people have heard enough of BHO's plan to steal from us and redistribute as he and his fellow socialists see fit. Good for everyone who showed up today!

Anyone who makes reference to Hitler and the other totalitarian states of the 20th Century is lacking in logic, argument, and facts. That applies to the tight as well as the frenzied left during Bush's administration. But, the fact is that the Voice did not look as carefully as this at the lunatic fringe during the anti war demonstrations. There you would have found admirers of North Korea or Iran. I ask you why the Voice is so one sided?

Anyone who makes reference to Hitler and the other totalitarian states of the 20th Century is lacking in logic, argument, and facts. That applies to the right as well as the frenzied left during Bush's administration. But, the fact is that the Voice did not look as carefully as this at the lunatic fringe during the anti war demonstrations. There you would have found admirers of North Korea or Iran. Still do. I ask you why the Voice is so one sided?

These people are such losers... 250 to 300 people in New York City. Sad. Pretty sure if Obama did a speech in Central Park he'd pack it with supporters. It's people like these 300 that turned your great country into two Americas. Rich America, and the poor America. These people waged war on middle class Americans for the last 8 years. Where were these protests when your country fought an illegal war and wasted trillions on it with no WMD's??? Oh that's right, Bush isn't Hitler, Obama is after one month. Wake up my American friends, don't listen to these losers.

Good for everyone who showed up today!

Yeah, 200 people in a city of 8,000,000. Impressive.

Tea Party?

Remind me again -- was the Boston Tea Party a protest against a government act that gave 95% of the colonists a tax cut?

And wasn't their some kind of complaint about taxation without representation involved there? Didn't Congress vote on this? You know -- our representatives?

Get a clue, conservatives. You claim to love America, but you seem to know nothing about its history and show nothing but contempt for the democratic process.

TAXATION BY AN INELIGIBLE PRESIDENT IS TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION.

NO BIRTH CERTIFICATE -- WHO IS HE TO TAKE LAYERS AND LAYERS OF NEW TAXES FROM WORKING AMERICANS?

amused canadian...why don't you wake up. American mom and pop business are the organizations that keep this country employeed. People who have started business years ago and have worked hard to get where they are now. We live the American dream. Tax us out of business and we will have to close our doors. Thus contributing to umemployment. What do you know about America?? You live in a socialist country.
Roxy
CA
CA

As pathetic as a turnout of 200 is, what's even lamer is that these rallies are not spontaneous, grass-roots affairs. They are part of a large orchestrated campaign funded by the same old corporate right-wing noise machine that we've been hearing from for years:
http://exiledonline.com/exposing-the-familiar-rightwing-pr-machine-is-cnbcs-rick-santelli-sucking-koch/

All that corporate backing and the best these clowns can do is this?

What I find amazing is that this week in my global studies classes we have been studing Hitler, and previously Stalin and Mussolini. NOT ONCE was the comparison made between Obama and these historical figures. Then again, I work in the South Bronx at a school that pushes it kids to go to college. It scares me that we are sending them into a society filled with people who are scantly educated with loud mouths OR whom are highly educated with little understanding of the world outside of their own.

If you picked yourself up by your bootstraps...I applaud you. However to refer to "liberalism as a mental disorder" I have little faith in your ability to know anything about what happens out side of YOUR social circle.

And yet, I'm not mad or even upset. Because what makes this country so beautiful is it's DIVERSITY. America is a land of immigrants be it years old or centuries old. And AS A HUMAN BEING I respect the opinion of others, though they differ greatly from my own, because it is the precedent of this very country that we are founded on.

You know, most of you leftists are amazing to me. You talk about liberty out of one side of your mouths while supporting authoritarianism in every respect where it furthers your agenda.

The point behind this protest was very simple - The same government that created these problems now wants carte blanche to "solve" them with solutions that are anything but.

Just like tyrants before him, Obama rails against select groups and singles THEM out for his onerous policies.. not YOU... at least not YET. He calls small business owners "the rich." Let me ask you... has anyone ever gotten a job from a poor person?

If you are so sure he's not a fascist... just wait until he and his preachy, self-righteous, arrogant team come gunning for YOU. Leaders like Obama always need a crisis, how long until YOU are the problem?

Governments don't create anything. They produce nothing. They manufacture zilch. In order to deliver on all the freebies that Obama and his ilk would promise you... it must be stolen from someone else first.

At the point in time we accept the premise that it's moral to steal from one person to give to another... is the point in time that our government are merely thugs and thiefs.

Peace out, Obamazombies

You know, most of you leftists are amazing to me. You talk about liberty out of one side of your mouths while supporting authoritarianism in every respect where it furthers your agenda.

The point behind this protest was very simple - The same government that created these problems now wants carte blanche to "solve" them with solutions that are anything but.

Just like tyrants before him, Obama rails against select groups and singles THEM out for his onerous policies.. not YOU... at least not YET. He calls small business owners "the rich." Let me ask you... has anyone ever gotten a job from a poor person?

Governments don't create anything. They produce nothing. They manufacture zilch. In order to deliver on all the freebies that Obama and his ilk would promise you... it must be stolen from someone else first.

Peace out, Obamazombies

@Amused Canadian

Sure Obama could get a million sheeps in Central Park. What point does it prove ?

Governments don't create anything. They produce nothing. They manufacture zilch.

That's odd. Then where did all these roads and telephone poles and schools and fighter planes and tanks come from?

10 old, diseased, dried out hags in pink t shirts make asses of themselves and it's a national movement. a couple thousand hard working Americans stand up and refuse to be enslaved by the lazy, grasping Obama voters and they're ridiculed.

Brian,
I loved your statement:
a protest against a government act that gave 95% of the colonists a tax cut?

Nothing displays ignorance more thoroughly.

While you enjoy your extra cup or two of Starbucks Latte each month with the generous pittance the One has bestowed upon you loyal serfs, consider the real fact that you are going to have to repay your bounty next April.

What you say?

The One didn't reduce your taxes.
The One merely reduced the withholding on your paycheck.
Your taxes remain the same.
When the tax man cometh you'll have to pay up.
Sorry to burst your bubble but you were lied to.
Like everything else about the One the supposed tax break is a fraud.
Don't believe me, ask your accountant.

Wake up and smell the coffee.
DanNY

Shoddy Journalism on your part for not bothering to ask me to identify myself before you wrote your article. Other reporters there did ask and I was happy to help, my bad for letting the cold distract me. However given the hostility of you and your readers I feel no urge to correct your error now.

It also demonstrates basic unprofessionalism and bad faith that after I was laughing and joking with the crowd, urging everyone to have a good time and stay positive, you got one photo of me reacting to the cold wind in order to falsely imply anger.

300 people? Hmmm not a bad start!

My name is Dan Edge, and I was one of the speakers at the event quoted in this article. In the interest of clarity, I would like to provide context for part of my speech that was quoted.

I said, "What we need now is a revolution -- a revolution of *ideas*." I was not calling for armed resistance (yet), but a renaissance of individualist philosophy, in opposition to the rampant collectivist ideology now permeating our culture.

For the record, I believe that both the liberal left and the conservative right are collectivist to their core. This is why so many Republican Congressman voted in favor of the Bailout and Stimulus packages, and why the Conservatives are helpless to defend us from the onslaught of statist policies now invading our country.

-Dan Edge

the government uses our money to run this country, and now they want more. more money is not the answer, banks, business etc. that made poor, greedy choices must reconfigure. spend this billions on unemployement while business reconstructs itself

I was not calling for armed resistance (yet)

Thanks for clearing that up, Dan.

If you are so sure he's not a fascist... just wait until he and his preachy, self-righteous, arrogant team come gunning for YOU. Leaders like Obama always need a crisis, how long until YOU are the problem?

First they came for the morans, and I said nothing,for I was not a moran...

For the record, I believe that both the liberal left and the conservative right are collectivist to their core. This is why so many Republican Congressman voted in favor of the Bailout and Stimulus packages

Uh, Dan? The number of Republican Congressmen that voted in favor of the stimulus package was 3 (granted, there aren't many of themleft, but still...).

And I echo R. Porrofatto's relief that you are putting off armed insurrection for the time being. You may want to hold off until you can get past the triple digits at one of your rallies.

Sheer funny.

Dale Richards claims the story portrays this crowd, and their movement, in an unfavorable light. I say they need no assistance.

To 1st speaker, I point out that I didn't think you looked angry in that photo, but your post seems pretty pugnacious. Maybe you should chill out.

Lighten up, Ted; or at least stop CAPITALIZING everything. That's so 1996.

WHERE'S MY ICED TEA, M-FER???!!!

Just like tyrants before him, Obama rails against select groups and singles THEM out for his onerous policies.. not YOU... at least not YET.

Patrick Gibson, that won't work on us. The reason it won't work is that we've just spent eight years listening to conservatives go on and on about how liberals are nothing but a bunch of traitors, faggots, and crazies. Conservatives clearly wanted a stronger, more centralized government, which would lock up anyone they disagreed with. Now that the conservatives are out of power, they suddenly want to warn us about the scary liberal government that will lock us up. Sorry Patrick, you're not making sense to me.

The rich can escape Obama taxes by use of offshore holding companies and offshore trusts:

corporate inversion
offshore corporation
incorporate offshore
offshore banking
offshore packages
offshore incorporations

http://www.offshoresimple.com/resellers/affiliate/affiliate.php?id=171&group=1

Conservatives are never for stronger centralized government, that is all in the left's camp. You can rant all you want, but no one tried to lock up anyone who disagreed with GWB. I won't speculate as to whether or not BHO wants to silence his critics, but there IS no question that he wants to redistribute wealth (a basic tenet of socialism and that's a fact) and that's what the protest is about. My biggest criticism of W's presidency was that they spent too much money which just shows you how much of a Conservative W wasn't.

To the people that said there were only 200 people at the Tea Party,I would suggest they read about the American Revolution. Only one third of the country support it.Many more Americans will be at the Tea Parties in the days to come.

This is just paranoia and hate. Totally meaningless. The "logic" appears to be that be that people who are smarter than you have no rights. Get a life you loser.

Hey LIBS!Wake Up..(schoolteacher,from the bronx). The comparisons to Hitler to Obama is the mezmerizing of crowds, and getting away with anything he might say..Which led to the holocaust,and who knows what here..the End of America as we knew it..where one can make it on his own with hard work and brains?

This is a start. obama and the left have declared war against America, time to give them the fight they are looking for.

Have all the "tea parties" you want, right-wing assholes. The country has woken up form its 8 year slumber and now wants nothing to do with everything you pathetic losers stand for -- corporate greed and malfeasance, racism and bigotry, and war. You're all evidently ignoramuses about history -- to compare Obama to fascists, nazis or stalinists just betrays your incredible ignorance. Is that what your bloated pill-popping hero Rush told you?

"Obama and the left have declared war on America." No, you stupid twat. We've declared war on YOU, your fucked-up party and the special interests it serves -- the "haves and have-mores," as Dubya put it, in a rare moment of honesty.

Now fuck off back to your loony blogs. And stay out of Union Square. It's a lovely spot we don't want contaminated by the likes of you.

Now go back to your loony neofascist blogs and sty the fuck out of Union Square, scumbags.

That's a good point, Gorton, about coverage not given to loonies on the left. The truth is, balanced coverage of of the lunatic fringe would make these right wing nuts seem far less important, since we liberals all know those leftist loonies don't represent us, therefore these right wing nuts may not represent conservatives.

The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.

Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations

At the point in time we accept the premise that it's moral to steal from one person to give to another... is the point in time that our government are merely thugs and thiefs.

Peace out, Obamazombies

Posted by: Patrick Gibson at February 28, 2009 10:19 PM

Thank you, GiorgioNYC, for showing us all just how intellectual and thoughtful the left is. Of course I find it so funny that many of you believe that it is right wing lunatic fringe thinking to not want one's finances plundered by a government hellbent on redistributing as they see fit. I was raised to earn my way, save for the future and be responsible for my actions. Who knew that was so radical?

Comrades, I'm afraid we've overallocated stimulus money for the reeducation camps.
Hey! I know. We can use the extra funds for mandatory late term abortions!

Ha Ha Ha...Everyones divided, Chaos will reign. It is the rebirth of punk and anarchy.....OY!

God I love wingnuts. They always manage to hit exactly the right blend of ignorance, paranoia and hysteria. It's a gift.

Leaders like Obama always need a crisis

Gee, who does that sound like? Smoking Gun...mushroom cloud...terror alerts...OMFG THEY'RE COMING TO KILL US ALL!!!1!!

"Why Punish The Middle Class?"

How many of the 300 were middle class, I wonder?

[Democrats] rally and they rally and they rally, and Republicans and real Americans, sometimes we don't.

If Republicans and real Americans can team up, that would be advantageous to Republicans.

he had spent "ten years" at the University of Chicago, where he said he took an economics degree.

A special ed student taking night classes could probably get a degree quicker than that. No wonder Republicans butcher the economy.

if there's any praise it goes to Jesus Christ! Where are the clergy! Where are the rabbis!

Rabbis don't believe in Jesus.

If the government decides that the gathering of people like this is an emergency, we can all be put on military bases, with the concomitant loss of all of our rights

I know, I'm angry about the patriot act, too.

"it is right wing lunatic fringe thinking to not want one's finances plundered by a government hellbent on redistributing as they see fit."

No, it is right wing lunatic fringe thinking to believe that a tax cut for 95% of the country equals "plundering" one's finances. And it is right wing lunatic fringe thinking to believe that the opposite, when wealth flowed to the highest income brackets away from the middle class during the Bush years, was a good thing.

Then again, that's what you get from the right wing lunatic fringe: right wing lunatic fringe thinking.

Joanne600 -- with your many references to redistribution of wealth I am wondering what you thought of President Eisenhower?

Thank you, GiorgioNYC, for showing us all just how intellectual and thoughtful the left is.

Rather than suggest your use of moronic, sweeping generalization is in some way indicative of the simplemindedness of "the right," I suppose those of us with working brains will have to settle for the realization that your use of moronic, sweeping generalization is indicative of the simplemindedness of, uh, you.

I was there.

It is interesting to read the comments on this site versus the comments on the NYPost Site.

The crowd was very mixed and represented many different beliefs. Some "crazy" things were said and some "intelligent" things were said. Do I believe that this country is on it's way to COMMUNISM? No. Is that the opinions of some, YES. I was there because I agree with Rick Santelli. I believe in "individualism" not "collectivism".

This event was a success, organized in three days with a lot of NYC Republicans away CPAC in DC- the turnout was fantastic.

I did not agree with some of the things that people who spoke said but I agreed with the overall mission of this event. I am proud to have been a part of it.

Nobody is perfect, not you, me, Obama, Bush, right, or left. This article and most of the comments that follow is a perfect display of the ignorance that exists on BOTH SIDES.

Nobody is perfect, not you, me, Obama, Bush, right, or left. This article and most of the comments that follow is a perfect display of the ignorance that exists on BOTH SIDES.

Ah sweet voice of reason. Surely we can agree that the shape of the Earth is somewhere between spherical and flat, and that adherents of BOTH VIEWS are just extremists.

The same government that created these problems now wants carte blanche to "solve" them with solutions that are anything but.

No, dear, the Republican Administration created these problems. Now we poor liberals have to fix them (again).

Its important the actual political figures who appeared at a rally in 2009 when the President of the US was compared to Adolf Hitler be reminded of that fact in any future political efforts they make.

This rally was a gift where the rightwing demonstrated their extremism. It will be important to remind voters of that fact in the months and years ahead.

Obama, Pelosi, Reid, Rangle and Frank are the face of the Democratic party. It is an ugly communist mug not unlike those of the Middle East who ant Israel destroyed and America broght to her knees.
We must begin a conservative movement to take this country back from the looney leftists. What ever it takes, we must save our country . . .

I heard this yesterday and checked out the math. Obama's budget is 3.6 trillion. If you took 1 dollars bills and stacked them on top of each other it would be enough money to go to the sun, back to earth, back to the sun, and almost all the way back to the earth. My kids' kids will be paying back this money if this amount of money even exsist. We need to get Obama out of there!!! He could be the mayor of a ghetto somewhere but not our president.

LOL. Every single day, the powerless right wing moves toward becoming a fringe militia with alarming speed. Threats of a revolution and an armed overthrow of the government? Please, you guys couldn't get off your duffs to sign up for the Iraq war you love so much, but now you're ready to fight your fellow Americans. What a joke. No one is afraid of you, we only worry about your obviously fragile mental states. Please put down the computer, the megaphone and anything sharp and pointy before you hurt yourselves. Just keep hoarding water, duct tape, blare Limbaugh and your hate radio whores and STFU.

My kids' kids will be paying back this money if this amount of money even exsist. We need to get Obama out of there!!!

Absolutely, because Obama spends commie, ghetto dollars. When George W. Bush spent 3.6 trillion dollars he was spending good, wholesome, American dollars. It makes all the difference.

who ant Israel destroyed

Larry dazzles us with his brilliant synthesis of entomology and Middle Eastern Studies. Show-off.

There's something so adorable about a group the size of an average elementary school, with a combined IQ lower than the current Dow, waddling together to complain about...economic theory?

And yes, the irony of what the Boston Tea Party represented vs. today's Festival of the Tea-Tards is beautiful.

"She invoked the 19th Century prayer campaign of Jeremiah Lanphier in which, Bernstein said, "10,000 Americans, much like us here today, gathered and cried out, 'Almighty God, we were not created for Socialism, we were not created for Marxism, we were not created for sharia law, which is already here!'" receiving huge cheers."

Why do so many right wingers hate history and/or not understand how causation and time works (hint for wingers: check out what happened when)?

"I heard this yesterday and checked out the math. Obama's budget is 3.6 trillion. If you took 1 dollars bills and stacked them on top of each other it would be enough money to go to the sun, back to earth, back to the sun, and almost all the way back to the earth. "

So what? Are you advocating for dollars of a different thickness or something?

"Hey LIBS!Wake Up..(schoolteacher,from the bronx). The comparisons to Hitler to Obama is the mezmerizing of crowds, and getting away with anything he might say.."

Indeed. Anyone who gives a good speech is likely to kill at least a hundred thousand. Time to clear out those campus debating societies of all of their genocidaires in training.

Between such fear and ignorance, how do wingers make it through the day?

"Why Punish The Middle Class?"

Obama's budget includes the largest middle class tax cut in US history. Although the richest 5% will have their trillions in Bush tax breaks expire, the other 95% of the rest of us will benefit this time.

Punish? Really?

Sounds like the majority of people gathered because finally they're feeling the pinch in their pockets. I think Bernstein has it right. Aren't we desperate yet for a great awakening? I see the great awakening of 1908 lasted 90 years and swept into Ireland. I'm sure it was all coincidence. These people at City Hall don't look like "right wingers", they look like freedom loving Americans who work hard. I wish someone would pay my mortage. Maybe some of you commenting have extra change to spare. Can you fill my gas tank too, please!

Aren't we desperate yet for a great awakening?

No. I'm not desperate for a Great Awakening. I want people to meet the challenges of the world by understanding the world and each other, not by praying and giving money to preachers.

"...to take this country back from the looney leftists. What ever it takes, we must save our country ."

Best advice, start another country. I hear there's tons of real estate in Antarctica...

Good for the Tea Party crowd. Better than the Obama worshippers who aren't troubled at all by an $800 billion "stimulus" bill rammed through Senate and House with no debate that is loaded with pork for special interests and trough lobbyists.

I'd have participated, but prefer sunny Florida to plague-stricken cold New York.

You can rant all you want, but no one tried to lock up anyone who disagreed with GWB.

It is very, very easy to find examples of conservatives calling for all liberals to be locked up, or worse. Consider the examples on that page, all from within the past six to eight years.

Tools, the lot of them. It's tempting to start shaking a Bible in their faces and selling them anointed handkerchiefs. But, you know, fish in a fucking barrel and all that.
Wonder who the next mascot will be they'll pick for the feebs to rally around. I guess it wouldn't matter. The right-wing noise machine could have these defectives "spontaneously" crafting sculptures of their new spokesman from their own feces within a half-hour.

I will never stop fighting against a tyrannical government that tries to give me unemployment insurance! Like Hitler did!

What a fool. I did not hear ANY ONE asking for money. Dude it is clear to me you are anti-Christ. You probably can't stand people of faith. Truth is it is the Christian faith that made America the greatest nation in the world. Our founding fathers were of different Christian denominations. It is the love of money, selfishness, greed, and immorality that has brought America to this place. I still agree with Bernstein it's repentance or devastation. Personally, I'm not afraid because I do believe in Christ and KNOW he is able to keep me and mine. But for those who STILL think secular humanism is the way, Good Luck!
As for the patriots who see "the writing on the wall." Do not despise small beginnings. Godspeed!

How about this? We'll give you Montana, North and South Dakota,and Utah. You can form your own country any way you like. The existing citizens of those states will be repatriated to the United States if they so desire.

You can have all those wide open spaces where you can shout your bat shit crazy ideas to the buffalo and elk. But please, if the United States is so repulsive for you, get the fuck out already.

Or writing on the wall with their feces.
I retired from the whole Antichrist thing years ago. Crappy pay, boardroom humor, and spending way too much time with Dick Cheney. It sucked. And I fucking hate golf.
Quotha!

Something adorable, I can't wait to see your adorable face in the next 2 years. You have no clue what is coming. Liberals think they are so intelligent but when there is no reverence for a Holy Deity, you are called fool.

We must begin a conservative movement to take this country back from the looney leftists. What ever it takes, we must save our country . . .

Typically, what it takes is convincing the voters that you have a viable alternative. That's how it works in a Democracy.

Problem is, you nutbags have so totally screwed the country and the only remedy you offer is more of the same with an added dose of hate and hysteria (THE SOCIALISTS ARE COMING!!!! THEY WANT TO CHANGE THE TAXCODE!!! OBMAMA'S A MUSLIM, A NAZI, A COMMUNIST, HE'S NOT EVEN AN AMERICAN, HE'S NOT EVEN FROM THIS PLANET, AAAAAGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!).

I sympathize with your predicament. Democracy will never work for a bunch of laughably deluded crazies like yourselves.

Thank you, Tagg. You do realize, don't you, that you're echoing a popular line leveled against antiwar and Civil Rights protesters back in the day? "Go back to Russia if you don't like it here!" I'm hoping you were conscious of this, but given how many liberals reach reflexively for right-wing tropes when one of their guys is in office, I'm not betting on it.

But then, Obama isn't a liberal. He's a right-wing Reagan-admiring center-rightist who's extending Bush's policies into his term. Maybe that's what liberals are these days, who knows?

Of course, we can see the right doing the same thing here: when Obama does the same things that Bush or Reagan did, they attack Obama. Obama "mesmerizes crowds"? So did Reagan. Bush never mesmerized crowds, but he still had carefully picked audiences who fawned on him. And don't remember, those Democrats who like Obama and are concerned about civil liberties, that Obama voted for Patriot Act II.

Oh, and then Chuckling does the same: "Why don't you work inside the system? You're so negative and bitter! If you want to convince the people you have to have a positive program, and work within the system! That's a Democracy!"

I think these folks are laughable too, chuck, but every movement starts out as a few nutbags that decent people feel comfortable laughing at. Which does not mean that every laughable nutbag is the seed of a great movement, of course. These teabaggers are ignorant of history, including (especially) recent history, but that doesn't set them far from Obama fans.

The laws of the United States must be executed. I have no discretionary power on the subject—my duty is emphatically pronounced in the Constitution. Those who told you that you might peaceably prevent their execution, deceived you—they could not have been deceived themselves. They know that a forcible opposition could alone prevent the execution of the laws, and they know that such opposition must be repelled. Their object is disunion, hut be not deceived by names; disunion, by armed force, is TREASON. Are you really ready to incur its guilt? If you are, on the head of the instigators of the act be the dreadful consequences—on their heads be the dishonor, but on yours may fall the punishment—on your unhappy State will inevitably fall all the evils of the conflict you force upon the government of your country.

I'm sorry I'm missing your point Dunc. We agree that they are laughable. I'm just laughing at them, same as everybody else.

But if they're not going to change the system by Democratic means, what's the alternative? The armed insurrection of which so many of them speak?

I never advised them to be positive and work within the system to get those votes. They wanna protest? Great. Maybe some non-violent civil disobedience to further the cause of making the rich richer and the rest of us poorer? Go for it, I say.

Obama has spent his life working alongside Marxists, Black Liberation Theologists (racist Marxists), small-c communists, terrorists, and other far-Left radicals. He hides behind a moderate agenda of "tax breaks for 95% of the people and a new uplifting tone in Washington," but it's obvious to many this is a smokescreen for his Marxist agenda.

He is spending trillions on billions not to fix our economy, but to destroy it and make it over in a Marxist manner.

Communism and its variations do not uplift the poor; they make everyone slaves of the state. If this ideology creates such happiness, why do people die trying to escape such utopias? Where do many want to come? AMERICA - the land of the free, the land of opportunity.

Anyone who tries to impose Marxism today, knowing the suffering, poverty, and oppression it creates, is either an ideologue who refuses to learn from history or a criminal who knows Marxism is a great way to rob and control the people, while keeping them powerless and submissive.

Those who want to help the poor should start a foundation and solicit contributions from the millionaire and billionaire liberals who say they care. Conservatives, who give more to charity, will gladly chip in, too, if the cause is good and the money is requested, not taken by force.

If you care about liberty, visit Reteaparty.com, and join the fight to keep America free.

First of all, the idea of the same people that voted twice for a President who destroyed our Bill of Rights among many other crimes, these people have lost credibility! Another thing. All this socialist talk after bailing your beloved corporations. How to you get the balls for that? Bush government was huge yet you say no big government...please learn to think. Now you protesters should get your asses pepper sprayed and hit with batons by the same police state that you voted in. Another thing, "Tea Party" LMAO, what the hell does the Republican Party have to do with freedom anymore? NOTHING!

He hides behind a moderate agenda of "tax breaks for 95% of the people and a new uplifting tone in Washington," but it's obvious to many this is a smokescreen for his Marxist agenda.

Damn straight, beeyotch. Say hello to your new Marxist overlord, President-For-Life Barry X. Obama. The line to the internment camp is right this way, honky. Oh, and all you fine ofay ladies, applications for comfort woman services is to the left.

Oh, and I said I wanted ICED tea, m'fer!

I've seen more New Yorkers in line for Shakespeare in the Park tickets.

Dear Republicans,

No. We are not trying to put you all in jail. No. We are not afraid of you and your mysterious fealty to a drug-addled narcissist.* We are laughing at you. You are the political equivalent of a skateboarder taking a handrail in the crotch. How can we not laugh?

Please, keep doing ... whatever it is that you are doing. And film it whenever possible. That would help.

*We do, however, plan to enslave you and give all your money to black people. I hope that's OK with you.

Evey single one of these loser looked exactly what you'd expect a Teabagger to look like, complete with their contorted faces and merkin burns! Look it up you nasty, keepers of the cold sores! Also know as mouth herpes!

Evey single one of these loser looked exactly what you'd expect a Teabagger to look like, complete with their contorted faces and merkin burns! Look it up you nasty, keepers of the cold sores! Also know as mouth herpes!

Evey single one of these loser looked exactly what you'd expect a Teabagger to look like, complete with their contorted faces and merkin burns! Look it up you nasty, keepers of the cold sores! Also know as mouth herpes!

Evey single one of these loser looked exactly what you'd expect a Teabagger to look like, complete with their contorted faces and merkin burns! Look it up you nasty, keepers of the cold sores! Also know as mouth herpes!

In 2004 when Bush was elected again, many progressives saw the end of our republic come into view (signing statements, Patriot Act, etc).

We fantasized about moving to Canada.
But Republicans hate Canada. So they will have to move to-- Saudi Arabia?

Bigger crowds routinely gather to watch a street performer in NYC. Lacking the bully pulpit, the rabid right will be happy with pics & quotes in the Voice. Sadly it just reveals them as nasty small minded frightened folk.

"You can rant all you want, but no one tried to lock up anyone who disagreed with GWB."

So remind me - why were 10,000 or so people arrested during the Publican convention in 2004? And why did judges and DAs decide to either throw out or not charge more than 90% of them?

These traitors are talking lynching and assassination. It's not funny. They're fascists. Once this fails, they'll start handing out the brown shirts and burning the stores of citizens that they think look Islamic.

they'll start handing out the brown shirts

No mate, this is the brown trouser brigade.

LOL LOL LOL is all that needs to be said.

And Duncan, I'm not a historian, but is it really true that great revolutions have been started by such a sorry bunch of idiots? People with no basic understanding of the basic definitions of the words they throw around so irresponsibly, much less any grasp of basic facts germaine to their complaints? And when did a successful revolution ever come out people being so totally duped? It's like if Lenin's supporters believed they were fighting for Democracy or the masses storming the Bastille expected a return to the monarchy.

"The crowd eventually tired of Bernstein and encouraged her to cease with a chant of "U.S.A.! U.S.A.!"

There were lots of atheists in the crowd and also she was totally off topic, which was causing side discussions of "When is she going to shut up?"

That's from the perspective of the crowd. I was the guy with the pitchfork. I would say that only 2-4 of the ten-twelve speakers stayed on message.

Nutty Desiree Bernstein who protests everywhere, always mentions that she is a 9-11 family member. The victim was William H. Bernstein, her brother in law, who worked for Cantor Fitzgerald. She does this family no good by appearing at these rallies.
Especially the anti-gay marriage ones, since her deceased Brother in law was most likely gay and would not have approved.

Hey Lex,

No one was talking about "lynching and assassination." Do you have some fantasies in these areas? Perhaps you are paranoid. Or just plain an evil guy who likes to demonize or opponents so you can justify these desires you harbor.

I read a couple of the other comments here. You guys are out of touch with reality. Most of our presidents have been economic ignoramuses. Also Alan Greenspan, and Paul Bernarke have no clue what they were or are doing. Many of the culprits who enriched themselves while destroying the economy like Paulson are now in charge.

This mess is absolutely about government interference in the free market causing distortions. For example, setting the interest rates below market is a price control. Like all price controls it causes the market to fail to clear. Since it is a price ceiling producers, savers, have produced too little real savings and consumers, borrowers, have over-borrowed.

It's been obvious for over ten years. There are other economic signals that show this was occurring such as asset price bubbles, trade deficits, and commodity price increases.

Unforunately no one listened to the Austrian economists on this. Why? Because the Keynesians and the Monetarists are popular with those in power.

Who are they going to listen to , a group that tells them they are not needed because markets are self organizing, or ones that tell them that micromanagement is necessary.

Funny think is that the infrastructure for micromanagment was constructed, the GSEs (Fannie and Freddy), the Fed, etc. But the micromanagment was run to the benefit of politicians. So you have people like Frank Raines pulling in millions of salary while destroying the economy with perverse incentives.

Funny think is...

Holy fuck, it's Don Cherry! And he's a economonamist.

Funny think is...

Holy fuck, it's Don Cherry! And he's a economonamist.

And he's got got another think coming.

Mr. Brian Macker,

I think your analysis of the causes of the current recession is totally wrong. Unlike most of the people profiled in Roy's article, however, you do not sound like a raving loony. Tell me, do you believe you will continue with these protests?

Mr. Brian Macker,

I think your analysis of the causes of the current recession is totally wrong. Unlike most of the people profiled in Roy's article, however, you do not sound like a raving loony. Tell me, do you believe you will continue with these protests?

I'm running scared.

Get a job, teabaggers!

William F. Buckley once said that he founded the National Review to save conservatism from the crazies.

Clearly, he failed.

"Unforunately no one listened to the Austrian economists on this. Why?"

Because they are as wrong about this as they are about everything else. HTH.

As for the teabag brigade, nothing makes me laugh harder than watching the working class protest that someone wants to give them a tax cut. Goddamn socialists! Trying to redistribute wealth to people like us. How dare they!

hey tristen, you didn't know Bill so you should keep your lies to yourself. Bill was ALL man and loved ALL WOMEN. You're lucky he is not here to respond to your cheap lies. What a loser. Bill's parents NEVER recoved from the lose of their first born son. They died this past year 6 months apart. People have no clue what 9/11 families go through because the media has been great to silence 9/11 families. As for Chaplain Bernstein she is a patriot and a great American who has served her country well, and continues to serve. Have any of you mockers ever served in the Armed Forces? Exactly, didn't think so. As for the pitch fork dude, I would say this, America is morally bankrupted. Americans think they made their wealth all by themselves. Try reading Deuteronomy 8:18. While you're at it check out what the Jewish prophets had to say about the times we are living in today. Read Hagggai then Habakkuk in the bible and maybe you will see what Bernstein is seeing. The God of Israel does not change. You are fighting a Leviathan and only Creator God can defeat this. Without a change of heart things will grow worse in the coming years. I agree with Bernstein it's repentance or devastation.

Ok, lets line it up and end the debate about cause and effect:

― Federal Reserve: unlimited power to finance federal debt (print money / inflation), debt is worth less over time = temptation to hold more, encourages over-leveraging (before the Fed 1913, banks leveraged closer to 1:1 thus if your competitors are leveraged more [under the Fed] you cant make much money as a business)

― FDIC: cause banks to over leverage and ensure the lack of market discipline, start up banks with no reputation can start up and over leverage capital (i.e. - failed lenders: Country Wide, Wamu), made possible the “Pick-A-Payment” mortgages: Owe $1,000 interest per month; only pay $500 (each month you owe more on your house) after all, for the home owner, property values were increasing forever and about to gain on future re-financing and, for the banks, they can keep over-leveraging.

― Freddie Mac / Fannie Mae (Government sponsored enterprises): Would not exist in free market, leveraged 1000 to 1 (5 trillion = 5,000,000,000,000 in liabilities and the majority bad liabilities... if I paid you $1 for ever second, it would take over 158,549 years to pay you) government sponsored = implied guarantee, lower cost of capital, acted on the the belief that housing prices never fall based on government policies, larges contributors to the Democratic Party = promote sub-prime "affordable" lending.

― Housing Policy: bankruptcy/foreclosure laws prevents market from clearing: in some states over 2 years for the real estate to go to sale).

― Failure of rating agencies: S&P / Moody's / Fitch (Government sanctioned - SEC) Horrible rating of the new market instruments (securitized mortgages) so the market lost confidence in the ratings for risk = lock up for liquidity,

― New crazy accounting rules: Fair Value Accounting (government determined enforced by the SEC), 2 years old as opposed to standard accounting that was in place for over 100 years, assumes all assets are all sellable at a "market price" when assets are not (for there to be a market, there must be a willing seller and buyer) = ignore that markets are forward looking, a willing buyers would not take accounting risk of write-down on actual economic value. This is only one of Fair Value Accounting's many flaws that drive unsafe market behavior.

And as far as stabilizing?

― TARP bailouts: major financial institutions “too big to fail”, huge moral hazard: reward excessive risk taking (Citigroup saved 3 times: each time bigger and worse), not selected by market and unpredictable (why Citigroup over Wacovia? Goldman over... Hustler?)...sure, the arbitrary actions of the government will increase market confidence...

I hope this sums up any debate over understanding the root cause of our problem.

but I think more fundamental in identifying root cause.

Deepest causes are philosophical (that drives the design of the system):

Altruism
– Affordable Housing
– Redistribute from productive to non-productive
– No one has a right to their own life and property(= $)

Pragmatism
– Short term: What works: Subprime worked for several years
– Irrationality

Welfare State “Free Lunch” Mentality
– Social Security
– Medicare
– I made a bad choice, Save Me!

Lack of Personal Responsibility
– Death of Democracies: Tyranny of Majority; remember how Athens was defeated in the Peloponnesian War, this is why the Bill of Rights was instituted by the US Founding Fathers.

Cheers,
Cory Baron (I attended as well)

P.S. - Nice pitchfork Brian!

haha. those people make me laugh. i really like how they basically called every obama supporter a socialist. hitler...obama.... hmm.. seem like two different people to me. oh..and sharia law? that bernstein lady is some bitch huh? haha.

tommy, no one called all supporters of obama socialists. the truth is that obama was mentored by saul olinsky and does believe in "spreading the wealth around". why it is people who refuse to see truth always attack with profanity. it only proves how morally bankrupt America truly is. you can call bernstein names, how wonderful in a nation that believes in freedom no one will harm you for it. go to a country where sharia law is the way, see how far you get. dont forget, in iran there are no honmosexuals because they hang them all. God bless America.

Atheist,

I think protests are in general very ineffective. So I probably will not go to another one. I spent several hours to get there. I had to pay for tickets. So even if the protest was well run and on message it's probable I wouldn't go again.

When I got there I had to listen to several speakers who I found offensive and off message.

From my perspective things look pretty politically hopeless for the economy and have for a long time.

The only guy who I thought actually grasped the economic issues was Ron Paul. But he always had a snowballs chance in hell of getting elected.

Not sure why you think my analysis of the economic problems are wrong since you didn't voice your opinion on what was the right causes.

The main driver of this mess was monetary policy. Until you understand economics to the extent that I do you won't get it. It's actually pretty obvious once you understand.

This is not something new. Many countries throughout history have gone through these financial bubbles. The cause is always the same, a monetary bubble, although how the bubble was achieved sometimes differs.

Tulip mania was driven by a monetary expansion by a central bank. The Mississippi bubble, and revolutionary France speculative bubble too.

People often get confused and think that the effects of a monetary bubble are causes.

I suggest you read the book Fiat Monetary Inflation in France to see the effects of monetary inflation in action during another period of time. The parallels are astounding. The book is only 66 pages long and is available online.

Our current boom period is a fractional reserve monetary inflation (not fiat). We are currently experiencing a fractional reserve deflation (as opposed to productivity deflation-a good very good thing).

Keynesians and monetarists conflate all the different types of deflation and inflation. Alan Greenspans attempt to target productivity, and trade based deflation by increasing the money supply was very ill advised.

Had he done nothing consumer good prices would have dropped, which is good for the little guy, but we would not have had the asset bubbles. Without the rise in asset prices (and with higher interest rates) we wouldn't have all borrowed against those assets and instead would have saved more.

The Fed is at this moment trying to reflate via an unprecidented fiat monetary expansion. Which is NOT going to work. We are going to experience an inflationary period instead which will hurt the poor.

Brian Macker, your understanding of economics is obviously of an advanced nature. It seems to me, though, that you are looking at the situation too ideologically. I don't see why you don't include the stupid mania of deregulation which swept the nation in the 1980s and 1990s, in the main causes of this mess. In particular, I would focus on the 1999 Gramm-Leach-Billey Act, which repealed the portion of the Glass-Steagal Act of 1933 that kept banks from owning other financial companies. The proximate cause of the economic mess was, after all, the failure of banks and financial companies which had heavily invested in bad derivatives.

On a more immediate level, this blog of Roy's is dedicated to examining and mocking conservative insanity. Since you sound conservative but sane, you might perhaps want to check out this blog instead: http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/ . The blogger focuses on economics and geopolitics, from a US perspective. He's quite intelligent and forces his commenters, who range from ultraconservative to socialist to middle of the road to none of the above, to use logic and back up their arguments. Just a thought.

Chuck -- well, it's hard to tell on Teh Intertuubs how serious people are. You don't have the vocal sounds, the expressions of the face! So I can't if always tell if people here are mocking the cliches they're directing against the Teabaggers, or simply regurgitating them. I know that Dems have done the latter often enough -- during Clinton's bombing of Iraq in '98, for example, a lot of prominent libs very seriously attacked his critics for not supporting the President in time of war. And I've seen similar stuff from Obama supporters now. I'm laughing at the Teabaggers, but I'm also laughing at some of their critics. (By the way, "Democratic" with a capital D was probably not what you meant -- why should Republican loyalists work for change through Democratic [party] means? And yes, I meant civil disobedience and other forms of non-electoral activism that have produced real change before.)

But in response to your second question -- "is it really true that great revolutions have been started by such a sorry bunch of idiots? People with no basic understanding of the basic definitions of the words they throw around so irresponsibly, much less any grasp of basic facts germaine to their complaints?" Why yes: Christianity, for one. I imagine that many who supported the Russian revolution were ignorant peasants and workers without a deep understanding of political or economic theory. Ditto the Venezuelans who reversed the coup that briefly unseated Chavez. And a fortiori the eager souls whose efforts put Barack Obama into office, many (most?) of whom had no idea what his actual, stated policies were, and got pissed off if one told them what they were: they were working for Hope and Change, dammit! They had to get Bush out of the White House! They wanted Bush to be defeated in 2008!

You've probably seen Limbaugh's speech to the CPAC where he confused the Preamble to the US Constitution with the Declaration of Independence. It's a common mistake, and I've often had to correct liberals on that point as well, including a liberal blogger or two. I don't think the Teabaggers constitute an actual movement in ovo, but their unquestioned ignorance and stupidity are traits they share with their opposite numbers.

There is always Hope. I just don't believe in the joke of Obama's views. You really should checkout: www.investigateislam.com Shar'ia is here and not creeping in any more. Checkout, www.atlasshrugs.com

Prayer rooms and foot baths have been installed on several U.S. university campuses, in airports, even as nativity scenes or other Judeo-Christian symbols remain forbidden. Calls of domestic violence by American Muslim girls and xwomen are not being pursued with rigor because U.S. authoriteis feel trapped in a religious freedom quagmire. (Shar'ia Law allows for the beating, an deven honor killing of disobedient wives and daughters) Laugh now cry later.

Prayer rooms and foot baths have been installed on several U.S. university campuses, in airports, even as nativity scenes or other Judeo-Christian symbols remain forbidden.

Are Christian chapels forbidden on US campuses? If so, it's news to me. We certainly have them in Islamomarxist Canada.

Atheist,

You think I am a "conservative"? I'm not a political conservative if that's what you mean.

I'm aware of Fabius Maximus and have posted several times there on economic matters.

"I don't see why you don't include the stupid mania of deregulation which swept the nation in the 1980s and 1990s, in the main causes of this mess."

Because it is not important and I'm not an economic creationist. Free markets operate just fine without "regulation". What free markets do need however is law. I understand emergent and self regulating systems. I'm not of the opinion that economies need "regulation' for the same kinds of reasons I'm not of the opinion that evolution needs an 'outside force' to drive it.

Fractional reserve banking is a form of fraud. A kind of pyramid scheme. That it was legalized is the cause of the business cycle. When the pyramid scheme taps out we get recessions/depressions.

I'm simplifying but that's the general idea.

"The proximate cause of the economic mess was, after all, the failure of banks and financial companies which had heavily invested in bad derivatives."

Proximate causes are effects, not true causes.

The root cause is a fractional reserve monetary inflation, and other forms of leverage. This problem was never fixed and instead was amplified by the establishment of a central bank. On top of this our government has tried to fix the problems introduced by having a central bank, by going to a fiat currency. As history shows this is incredibly stupid.

There have been many excuses and arguments made for why the US is special and will not destroy it's currency while on fiat. In fact, none of them are valid. We are on a course of monetary destruction.

"... this blog of Roy's is dedicated to examining and mocking conservative insanity. "

I like to deal with all forms of insanity. When Richard Nixon put us on wage and price controls that was an insane position for someone who was fighting communism. When Alan Greenspan ascended to head the federal reserve, an organization dedicated to central planning for the monetary system, in the name of free markets, that too was a form of insanity.

Destroying the currency in the name of helping the poor is just as contradictory and insane.

Mr Macker, I know theoretical high energy physics and computer programming. Economics is far too abstract for me.

Why did Paul Krugman win the Nobel? Institutional madness? My question is not facetious.

Brian Macker, whether deregulation fever was the ultimate cause of the shitstorm or not, you have to admit that the current mess could never have happened if the banks and other financial companies had not created such a promiscuously interlinked ownership of ultimately worthless financial assets- a situation which could not have happened under the previous regime of regulation. I don't see why this makes me an 'economic creationist'.

As far as fiat currency goes, I don't understand your argument. Why is fiat currency such a problem in your opinion? And what would suggest instead, a return to the gold standard?

Finally, I'd like to know did you ever protest against George W Bush when his spending pushed the US to record levels of national debt, and when he was creating his huge and intrusive security state?

Hell, Atheist, please see my above... No, I'll post part of it again:

― Federal Reserve: unlimited power to finance federal debt (print money / inflation), debt is worth less over time = temptation to hold more, encourages over-leveraging (before the Fed 1913, banks leveraged closer to 1:1 thus if your competitors are leveraged more [under the Fed] you cant make much money as a business)

― FDIC: cause banks to over leverage and ensure the lack of market discipline, start up banks with no reputation can start up and over leverage capital (i.e. - failed lenders: Country Wide, Wamu), made possible the “Pick-A-Payment” mortgages: Owe $1,000 interest per month; only pay $500 (each month you owe more on your house) after all, for the home owner, property values were increasing forever and about to gain on future re-financing and, for the banks, they can keep over-leveraging.

― Freddie Mac / Fannie Mae (Government sponsored enterprises): Would not exist in free market, leveraged 1000 to 1 (5 trillion = 5,000,000,000,000 in liabilities and the majority bad liabilities... if I paid you $1 for ever second, it would take over 158,549 years to pay you) government sponsored = implied guarantee, lower cost of capital, acted on the the belief that housing prices never fall based on government policies, larges contributors to the Democratic Party = promote sub-prime "affordable" lending.

― Housing Policy: bankruptcy/foreclosure laws prevents market from clearing: in some states over 2 years for the real estate to go to sale).

― Failure of rating agencies: S&P / Moody's / Fitch (Government sanctioned - SEC) Horrible rating of the new market instruments (securitized mortgages) so the market lost confidence in the ratings for risk = lock up for liquidity,

― New crazy accounting rules: Fair Value Accounting (government determined enforced by the SEC), 2 years old as opposed to standard accounting that was in place for over 100 years, assumes all assets are all sellable at a "market price" when assets are not (for there to be a market, there must be a willing seller and buyer) = ignore that markets are forward looking, a willing buyers would not take accounting risk of write-down on actual economic value. This is only one of Fair Value Accounting's many flaws that drive unsafe market behavior.

And as far as stabilizing?

― TARP bailouts: major financial institutions “too big to fail”, huge moral hazard: reward excessive risk taking (Citigroup saved 3 times: each time bigger and worse), not selected by market and unpredictable (why Citigroup over Wacovia? Goldman over... Hustler?)...sure, the arbitrary actions of the government will increase market confidence...

I hope this sums up any debate over understanding the root cause of our problem.

This is a summary of John Allison's talk on the cause/effect regulations have in a mixed economy, and in my words "how the system drives behavior":

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=reg_ls_financial_crisis

"Why did Paul Krugman win the Nobel?"
I can retort, "Why did Hayek win the Nobel?"

If you are not familiar both have completely different theories about the economy. Krugman is Lamarke and Hayek is Darwin. Both can't be right.

Do you think Arafat deserved the Nobel for "Peace" What did Gore do for "Peace"?

Everyone thought Greenspan was a genius while the Austrians were talking him down. Now we see who is right.

"Economics is far too abstract for me."

Austrian economics isn't as abstract as say Keynesianism. There isn't as much hand waving. They also don't come up with false paradoxes like the "Paradox of Thrift". Nor do they believe that throwing money out of helicopters will fix the economy like Keynes.

How about this. You read "What has Government Done to Our Money" It's a very short book, and you let me know if you don't understand what was being communicated. It's also available online so you don't have to pay for it o r subsidize the author (besides he's dead).

I don't agree with everything that is claimed by some of the Austrians. For instance I do not believe in Mises's apriorism. But you have to give the guy a break as he wrote 100 years ago, before certain scientific philosophical breakthroughs.

Regardless of their philosophical beliefs they are in fact using empirical methods and most will admit it. Just so long as the theory is sound from a Popperian perspective I don't care.

Keynesianism and Monetarism fail as sciences because they are either a) self contradictory in their main arguments. or b) Not empirically sound.

We just tried Keynesian/Monetarist control over the money supply and it failed. Keynesianism is a failure out of the gates and for example theoretically claims that stagflation is impossible.

We are politically headed towards monetary then price inflation. Does it have to happen? No, it depends on what actions the government takes.

I think however that it is very unlikely that our politicians are going to stabilize the money supply. Not if they are going to pass massive spending bills in months that rack up more costs that that drunk sailor Bush did over eight years.

The OTHER Atheist, I agree with some of the criticisms of our financial system which you have described in your very long comment. I don't doubt but that these policies, and institutions such as the FDIC, the Federal Reserve system, etc., have inherent issues, and can be misused by someone with no respect for the system. However, I feel you are ignoring some very important things. Such as, there were plenty of depressions in the USA during the 1800s, before any of these financial policies or institutions were ever instituted (the Federal Reserve system, for instance, was started in 1913). If the current economic shitstorm is really the result of the policies and institutions you list, then how do you account for the "Six Year Depression" of 1837 to 1843, for instance?

Reading your comment, I get the feeling that our greatly differing takes on this are due to our different ideologies. You seem to be a libertarian, whereas I am a socialist. However, I have learned to rely less on my ideology and more on actual objective facts about the system I live in. I wish that you would do the same-- only if we do this will our conversation bear any fruit. If, on the other hand, we hold fast to our ideologies, then there can be nothing but conflict between libertarians, socialists, conservatives, and liberals.

Brian Macker, I do appreciate that you have scholarly sources for what you believe in. The work that you did to understand economics means that you look at things logically, which is great. But here's the thing, I wish sometimes that you would step outside of this view a bit. You don't have to, of course, but it's like a form of very intelligent blindness, to me. It's like what Fabius Maximus likes to say, that we're about to see some major changes in the big picture, and therefore why not try to get the various warring tribes of America, the libertarians, the socialists, the liberals, the conservatives, together into some kind of parley, at least?

But maybe, to you, nothing will suffice other than an endless fight against the powers that be. Frankly, they just aren't into purist 'free markets' the way you are. "Free Markets" are more of a useful advertising slogan to them.

As far as us reading Mises, that's good of you to offer the link, but it's a bit much to expect of "random people on the internet", which is what we all are here. Look, you've offered your name so I'll return the favor, my name is Aaron Dellutri. I live in Chicago. And, dude, I am no more likely to read Mises than you are to read Das Kapital- which uses empiricism just as much as any other economic system thank you very much.

As for stabilizing the money supply, that is a good thing, but to me, I'm much more interested in stabilizing people's lives. If it's a choice between the people, and the purity of the money supply, then guess what, fuck a bunch of stable money supply. With a bag of dicks. I don't know how to be clearer than that.

Atheist, "rely less on my ideology and more on actual objective facts about the system I live in"!? How is it that the facts I presented to you (very objective and verifiable) rely on my ideology? No comment from you on how these facts are "ideological" and you dredge up some old argument as a way to avoid the "actual objective facts about the system" that you rely on? Give me a break.

(fyi: there were plenty of statist/socialist interventions in the market back prior to 1837)

Yes, we do have conflict as some people do hold fast to irrational ideologies (i.e.- Religion, Socialism, Flat Earthers, etc). What one wants and what is real are 2 different things, this is the essence of socialism.

So lets stick to the facts: WHAT ideologies have been designing the "system" to create an ever more mixed economy and in doing so, create more conflict? Socialist/Statist is the answer.

I look forward to your response on how the facts I presented are rest on my ideology (in fact, it is the other way around).

-Cory

The OTHER Atheist/Cory, I didn't say that the facts you presented rest on your ideology. It seems to me that most of them are true in one way or another. It does, however, seem to me that you and I are arguing from vastly different premises.

I would not say that the facts you presented come from your ideology, rather I would say that your ideology causes you to focus on those facts and to ignore other facts. My ideology leads me to consider certain facts to be of paramount importance, which you apparently couldn't care less about.

At this point, the only thing I would say is that if you want to protest against Obama's policies, fine. However from looking at the photographs above, and reading Roy's descriptions of what people said, it all seems like an anti-Obama protest rather than a protest against policies. The bizzarre paranoia about socialism doesn't help either. In short, you might want the next protest to seem less partisan and anti-Obama, and more a public education of why you think the policies being taken on are the wrong ones.

"And, dude, I am no more likely to read Mises than you are to read Das Kapital- which uses empiricism just as much as any other economic system thank you very much."

Thomas Sowell used to be a communist in his younger naive days. He wrote a good book, Marxism, on the philosophy.
Das Kapital doesn't use empiricism, nor the scientific method.

Marx advocates economically silly notions like the belief that the amount of labor put into a good determines it's value. As if mud pies and apple pies must be of equal value.

Marx's theories have been tested empirically and failed.

"As for stabilizing the money supply, that is a good thing, but to me, I'm much more interested in stabilizing people's lives. If it's a choice between the people, and the purity of the money supply, then guess what, fuck a bunch of stable money supply. With a bag of dicks. I don't know how to be clearer than that."

Can't have one without the other. It's clear you are not the kind of guy to think "First understand the problem then solve it".

In fact it is the unstable money supply that is making peoples lives unstable. It's been repeated over and over throughout history.

If you think saying fuck it with a bag of dicks is clarifying then I don't know what to say to that. It's clear you aren't interested in actually solving problems.

BTW, your following claim is false: "Such as, there were plenty of depressions in the USA during the 1800s, before any of these financial policies or institutions were ever instituted (the Federal Reserve system, for instance, was started in 1913)."

There were several central banks before 1913. There were plenty of regulations also.

The constant in all this was fractional reserve banking.

I came back to respond to your comment of March 4, 2009 5:51 AM. No I don't have to admit what you claim. I don't see the point of responding further. You are not interested in understanding.

Aaron,

I can see that you are not the kind of person who thinks "To solve a problem first you have to understand it". In fact peoples lives are not stable BECAUSE the money supply is being messed with.

Your understanding of economic history is totally incorrect. Your facts are wrong, your economic folk theory is wrong, and your attitude is wrong. Why would thinking about things illogically help?

I don't know how to respond to a guy who's intellectual position is fuck it "with a bag of dicks". So I'm not going to bother trying to communicate anymore.

OK dude, have a nice life. I try to express that I think there are things more important than the stability of the money supply, important as it is. But to you, no societal stability is possible without a stable money supply. If you think that the un-stable money supply goes back into the 1800s, then I guess you feel our society has never been stable. Which then leads me to ask, why are you so worried about Obama?

You sound like you are retreating into abstruse economic theories when I ask you, straightforwardly, how can the Federal Reserve really be that bad when we've had it since 1913, a period which saw depressions but also much prosperity? Oh, the problem is 'fractional reserve banking'. So if you really hate fractional reserve banking, and fractional reserve banking has been going on since the nineteenth century, then why were you at this anti-Obama protest? I'm left with esoteric political theories and no understanding of why you went to this protest. Which, I guess, is fine.

It seems funny to me (and somewhat hypocritical) to see the Christian right using the argument that socialism is somehow against the will of God. In the Bible, Jesus repeatedly espouses views that would be considered socialistic. He repeatedly says to give all you can to the poor and to not concern yourself with materialism. Yet, the Christian right is against this view in support of their system of haves and have nots. As an atheist this may be clearer for me to see than the Christian sheeples, but the hypocrisy is very entertaining.

Chris,
"It seems funny to me (and somewhat hypocritical) to see the Christian right using the argument that socialism is somehow against the will of God."

Yes, that is hilarious. One of first christian colonies here, the Pilgrims, tried to use a socialist system at first. Of course it failed. There are also communist Christians like the Hutterites.

"He repeatedly says to give all you can to the poor and to not concern yourself with materialism."

That's not socialism. Jeesh. That's just Christian charity, something the socialist denigrate. Socialism is giving someone else's money to the leaders, who might give it to the poor and might not.

Atheist,

I don't know how to deal with people like you. I pointed you to a very short book that deals with monetary instability back in the 1700s in France, but you seem to think that my beliefs are somehow ungrounded. That somehow "regulation" was invented sometime around or after the Great Depression.

In fact right after I showed you that you acted like there was no government intervention in economics before. Central banks are very old and the problems they cause have been around for a long time. Same with fractional reserve banking. Same with "regulation".

"If you think that the un-stable money supply goes back into the 1800s, then I guess you feel our society has never been stable."

Has it ever been stable? Not sure what country you live in. Of course it's never been economically stable. It's just been better than other countries where they mix economic instability with a lack of freedom, which means unstable and poor.

"Which then leads me to ask, why are you so worried about Obama?"

Which leads me to ask why do you think I'm so worried about Obama? You weren't at the protest so you don't know what was being said in the crowd. People are just as pissed at the Republicans.

I think people should be just as pissed at the Republicans in all this as the Democrats. Didn't you see where I implicitly called Nixon a insane communist above.

You know I bad mouthed Bush at the beginning of his term for putting up trade barriers on timber, keeping Greenspan, and allowing the interest rates to fall to near zero. He's homeland security measures were an asinine approach that was also hurting the economy.

Did I also mention that I have argued on the internet that waterboarding IS torture and that domestic US law makes it a felony for any US citizen to torture anyone anywhere in the world. I have called for someone Bush's administration to be brought up on charges. Could even go all the way to Bush.

So stop with your ridiculous deductions. Just because people were at that protest does not mean it was about Republicans. In fact, some guy walked by shouting something to the effect of "You Republicans lost. Live with it.". Someone else in the crowd near me said "This isn't about republicans", and I said "I vote libertarian. I always lose."

Bush spent like a drunk sailor and I've voiced my dislike of that too. It's just that Obama and the Democrats are behaving even worse by a factor of four to eight. Shouldn't I be four to eight times more concerned?

Obama has also not fired Bernarke for his incompetence. Obama really hasn't done anything that is economically sound.

"You sound like you are retreating into abstruse economic theories when I ask you, straightforwardly, how can the Federal Reserve really be that bad when we've had it since 1913, a period which saw depressions but also much prosperity?"

The prosperity had nothing to do with the Fed. It was driven mainly by two factors. 1) WWII destroyed most of the rest of the industrial world. 2) Socialism and communism gained foot holds throughout the world eliminating our competitors.

Who's a country with lots of natural resources going to sell to, a country that has crippled their economy with socialism and therefore cannot efficiently use the raw materials and trade more finished goods for those materials, or some socialist backwater?

The whole purpose of the Fed is to bring about "price stability". Fluctuating prices are the communication mechanism of an economy. Prices are the only efficient means we have to coordinate our plans on a large scale. So the charter is dedicated to eliminating our ability to cooperate. It's as if a doctor was dedicated to ceasing blood flow.

Since the Fed inception however prices have actually become less "stable". That's because they didn't understand the problem, fractional reserve, before they tried to solve it. Solving that problem requires that the fraud of fractional reserve be eliminated.

Fractional reserve and central banking are the main drivers of these crazy economic cycles. So it's not abstruse. It's only abstruse if you don't understand. Like thinking being concerned about O-rings on rockets is abstruse. They blow up if they are poorly engineered.

If one of my main concerns is the elimination of fractional reserve banking how does that make me any more against Obama than any Republican? Hell, if Obama understood this and how it effects people he'd be doing the right thing, not what he's doing. So why would I care who did it.

BTW, I'm past the point of trying to convince you. I'm only replying for lurkers who might learn something.

BTW, I'm not actually for "stability of the money supply". That's just an ignorant interpretation. What I'm for is a free monetary system. Which does not imply that the money supply will stay stable at all. There can be circumstances where the money supply will need to change via the free markets to adjust to reality. That however does not require a "creator" or "outside force" to be accomplished. The market can do it just fine.

What I'm against is the fraud involved in fractional reserve banking. That fraud causes false signals to be sent through the monetary system. It makes us think we have more savings that actually exists and causes us to overbuild, and over invest in projects that are bound to eventually fail when the savings turns out not to exist.

OK Brian Macker. So, you're a guy who wishes to institute an economic system that has never existed before. That's fine. My initial thoughts that you wanted to create an economy like that of the 1800s or early 1900s were unfounded, you actually want an economic system the like of which has never existed. Fine.

I don't see why you feel Obama's 4x-8x worse than Bush, as Obama is so far not spending anything near like what Bush spent on the Iraq war. But whatever, to you Obama's spending is worse than Bush's spending, in some mystical way. That's fine.

Then, I guess continue to protest if you like. Or don't if you don't.

I'll continue to read up on economic matters. Perhaps I'll look at the concept of "Fractional Reserve Banking", and perhaps I'll have the same reaction to the concept that you do. Have a good one.

Look Brian, maybe I'm being too sarcastic here, though I'm not really trying to be that way. Your talk of "Fractional Reserve Banking" has piqued my interest, and perhaps I'll investigate further. But I think it's unfair how you said that I'm uninterested in learning what's really going on. I mean, how often do you actually read books suggested by random people on the internet?

You think I should read Mises. Well, I think you should read Noam Chomsky & Ed Herman's updated "Manufacturing Consent", a tome which describes in pretty good detail, the modern "Propaganda Model" of the media, or in other words how the corporate media acts to create a skewed "consensus reality" that most people accept as an "objective reality". The "propaganda model" also gets into how the corporate ownership of the mass media acts to filter the perceptions of the public. So are you going to read "Manufacturing Consent"? No, didn't think so.

Bottom line, our views on Obama and his policies are very different, apparently because we have vastly different views on government spending, and the nature of the state itself. Which is pretty much what I expected, but I just decided to talk with you a bit too.

Aaron

Leedsman why don't you visit City Hall and see what was done to the Christian patriots who fought in the American Revolution. If I had poured multi color paints on a gay flag, it would NOT be called "expression of art". I would be labeled a RACIST and ARRESTED. Yet 3 of our famous heroes have been COVERED with multi-colored paint and it's called "expression of art". Oh by the way, did I tell you Bill Ayers met with Chevez and told him Obama is on the right path for socialism. Personally, I don't care because my faith is in Jesus Christ of Nazareth. With there being many gods and jesus' today, I wish Americans luck for there certainly is NO REPENTANCE. I see great suffering before Americans.

"So, you're a guy who wishes to institute an economic system that has never existed before."

Well you certainly like to paint my views in a bad light. [I think it bad because I understand Hayek. You may not have meant it that way. Untested systems are not a good idea.] First of your claim is false. It used to be legally recognized that fractional reserve banks were fraudulent and the practice was illegal. So it's not untried, and it works fine.

However it wasn't to the benefit of governments that wished to wage war and was long before other innovations. It became politically unpopular because it restrained rapacious politicians. Thus they made it legal for the banks to cheat people, mainly the poor.

In fact the entire change falls most heavily on the poor, because the poor have the highest transaction costs. It's much easier for the poor to save with a precious metals based commodity than to try and determine what Shenanigan's the banks or stock markets are up to.

It was also generally recognized in the past that fiat currencies were a bad thing. That based on the results of countries that went fiat. They always ended in ruin. Zimbabwe is a current example.

You are actually living through an new economic system that has never existed before. It started when Nixon went completely off the gold standard (did I mention he's an idiot). The prior experiment which gave us the inflation of the 70s had failed. Now we are seeing the results of the current experiment.

"My initial thoughts that you wanted to create an economy like that of the 1800s or early 1900s were unfounded, you actually want an economic system the like of which has never existed."

It's likely that your understanding of the economic history of the 1800s and 1900s is colored by the ideological wars of the past, and who were the winners and losers, politically. The winners get to take over the education systems and write revisionist (or just plain false) history. To demonize their opponents and their opponents beliefs.

As an example who do you think wrote this? Some socialist?

"It is very easy for you, O respectable citizen, seated in your easy chair, with your feet on the fender, to hold forth on the misconduct of the people - very easy for you to censure their extravagant and vicious habits .... It is no honor to you that you do not spend your savings in sensual gratification; you have pleasures enough without. But what would you do if placed in the position of the laborer? How would these virtues of yours stand the wear and tear of poverty? Where would your prudence and self-denial be if you were deprived of all the hopes that now stimulate you ...? Let us see you tied to an irksome employment from dawn till dusk; fed on meager food, and scarcely enough of that .... Suppose your savings had to be made, not, as now, out of surplus income, but out of wages already insufficient for necessaries; and then consider whether to be provident would be as easy as you at present find it. Conceive yourself one of a despised class contemptuously termed "the great unwashed"; stigmatized as brutish, stolid, vicious ... and then say whether the desire to be respectable would be as practically operative on you as now. ... How offensive it is to hear some pert, self-approving personage, who thanks God that he is not as other men are, passing harsh sentence on his poor, hard-worked, heavily burdened fellow countrymen .... (..., pp. 203-5)"

That came from Social Statics. It was written by Herbert Spencer. The so called father of Social Darwinism.

You can read more about this in Roderick Longs' article "Herbert Spencer: The Defamation Continues".

"I don't see why you feel Obama's 4x-8x worse"

It's called math. Obama is spending at a rate that is 4-8 times higher than Bush. Bush was already in ludicrous territory. Obama is also expanding our military intervention while reducing military spending. Which is contradictory and likely to lead to a bad outcome. Remember too that Bushes spending increases were very large not only in military but also social programs.

You also have to remember that the reason we have bases all over the world is the Democrats (they also dropped the A-Bomb, twice). It's not just Republicans who have done the dirty deeds. Nor have Democrats been the only party doing good things. The Republicans freed the slaves not the Democrats.

"But whatever, to you Obama's spending is worse than Bush's spending, in some mystical way. That's fine."

It's not mystical to me. It's more of the same bad thing.

"You think I should read Mises. Well, I think you should read Noam Chomsky & Ed Herman's updated "Manufacturing Consent", a tome"
I'm already familiar with Noah Chomsky. My dad is a pacifist, has picked up Chomsky from the airport, and they used to write letters to each other as late as a decade ago. Not sure if they are still in touch.

I don't find much to disagree with that particular book so I don't see much point in reading it. As you say it's a tome.

I didn't suggest a tome, and it's not written by Mises, but Rothbard.

"Look Brian, maybe I'm being too sarcastic here, though I'm not really trying to be that way.
Ok, I can accept that my positions are hard to swallow. I do however think about them. I'm a free thinker and that tends to get people riled when my opinions clash with what they believe.

Your talk of "Fractional Reserve Banking" has piqued my interest, and perhaps I'll investigate further."

I don't suggest you just go out an look up FRB on Wiki or something. You are not going to understand it properly that way. Especially since popular understanding is so economically ignorant.

I suggested a specific and free short book. It's a classic like "The Selfish Gene" and at least for me a page turner. BTW, it might just help you get through this mess, and certainly will help you better understand economics.

The other book on fiat money in France is likewise very interesting and short, a classic.

"So are you going to read "Manufacturing Consent"? No, didn't think so."
Not sure why you think that. I might but it's not like you've challenged my beliefs with it. Why read something that isn't going to open up new horizons?

I already believe that all observations are already colored by theory, including Chomsky's. Heck our eye's use theory to interpret what we see. That's what optical illusions are all about.

My opinion of Chomsky is that he has blinders of his own in other areas. Just google "Chomsky Pol Pot" or "ChomskyKhmer Rouge".

The methods of science are all about taking these blinders off and exposing our errors. That's why I like to see those methods used in all areas, religion, economics, politics, etc.

"The "propaganda model" also gets into how the corporate ownership of the mass media acts to filter the perceptions of the public."

I hope you understand that producers of all ilks are not about "free markets". Their interests lie in working against free markets. That why farmers work for farm regulation (price controls) and cable companies work for regulation of cable TV.

Once they get regulations in place they have the advantage over consumers in influencing that regulation because a larger percentage of the income comes from/is spent in the area, and because of specialization there are fewer of them to organize.

You spend what twenty-thirty bucks a year on peanuts? Well Jimmy Carter got 100% of his income from peanuts, and government intervention in the economy made him and his family rich, while raising the price of food for poor people in this country.

Poor people cannot afford the transaction costs of organizing, and also can't afford individually or collectively to spend money on a full time lobbyist in Washington. Peanut farmers can and have. They've made it illegal to grow peanuts unless you have a license, and have put up trade barriers that hurt the poor hear and farmers in poor countries.

The ability of producers to capture regulation is a form of political failure that the founding fathers recognized and attempted to correct for. That's what happened with Enron. They didn't deregulate, they re-regulated in a way that benefited the company. Who do you think wrote those new regulations? Go look it up, Enron and other energy trading companies. ... and the prior regulations were written to the benefit of other companies.

"Bottom line, our views on Obama and his policies are very different, apparently because we have vastly different views on government spending, and the nature of the state itself."

That's for sure. I understand that Obama is an economic ignoramus and his policies and the results will reflect that fact.

You recommended to me that I read Das Captital. I want you to know that I have skimmed it. Just like I have skimmed Mein Kampf, and "The Little Red Book". It too was written by and economic ignoramus.

Being an ignorant of something isn't a crime, moral or otherwise, until you demand authority over others, and advocate changing the system. Both Marx and Obama are guilty of this.

Marx's ignorance and false claims to authority on things economic resulted in hundreds of millions of deaths. If you want to argue that his stuff wasn't followed then I direct you to Thomas Sowell, who understands Marx better than most other Marxists.

We have yet to see what Obama's mistakes will result in. We have a good idea what Clinton's, and Bush's have.

We are not going to get off the roller coaster ride that is the business cycle till we outlaw the fraud inherent in fractional reserve banking. There is nothing about credit markets that requires that leveraged short term funds be used for long term investment. It's just stupid.

Gal,

What the heck are you on about? I don't see anyone here named Leedsman. Why the heck should I care if someone poors paint on a US flag just so long as they bought and own it? You obviously interpret that as speech and it's their right to say what they want in this regard.

"Personally, I don't care because my faith is in Jesus Christ of Nazareth. With there being many gods and jesus' today, I wish Americans luck for there certainly is NO REPENTANCE. I see great suffering before Americans."

What the heck does that crazy rant have to do with anything? What does Jesus have to do with paint, or taxes for that matter? Other than him saying "Give unto Caesar". Why aren't you listening to him and get with the program? Pay those taxes and be happy.

I don't like it when ethical ignoramuses like you or "Chaplain" Desiree Bernstein get up and spew Bronze Age morality at me.

Socialism vs. Non-Socialism, or Communism vs. Non-Communism isn't about theism. No more so than they are about believing or not believing in leprechauns.

Why the anti-Obama signs at the protest?

On the issue of regulation. I'd like to remind everyone that it was the Democrats that were fighting the regulation of Fannie and Freddy.

Here's a backwards time-line through this Democrat mess showing how they profiteered from wrecking the home loan markets.

Obama is appointing and using many of these crooks as advisors. That's why there are lots of anti-Obama signs. Along with the fact that Obama is appointing all sorts of tax cheats to run the system.

I understand the economics better. It's not just the Democrats since subprime isn't the main issue here. It was always about Greenspan and his low interest rates juicing up a fractional reserve monetary boom. Going back to Clinton's internet bubble.

@Sara
"I've seen more New Yorkers in line for Shakespeare in the Park tickets."

I've seen more New Yorker's in line at H&H Bagels.

I don't see anyone here named Leedsman

Mr Macker, Crazy Church Lady was referring to me.

I can retort, "Why did Hayek win the Nobel?"

Right. Hayek and Kissinger thrived back in the days when "fittest" was spelt S-O-C-I-O-P-A-T-H.

You mean socialist was spelled sociopath. Like in national socialist party.

I think what it boils down to is GOVERNMENT. Its not a Republican thing. Its not a Democrat thing - unless of course your still getting high off "The One." What it boils down to is that America is tired of government. Government tells you that you can do this and you can't do that. Government taxes the heck out of you. Right now, our elected officials - whom we put in office - are basically riding roughshod over the Constitution and the wishes of the American people. If you had asked me a year ago what polictical party I would have most identified with, I would have immediately said - Republican. Now, they all disgust me with their abuse of power. Republicans abused their power while they had the majority Congress. Now, the Democrats are using their majority to push through liberal ideals that most Americans don't agree with. They've lost touch with their base and are on a trip of greed and lust for power. Anyone who doesn't recognize all of this for what it is, is blind. We are headed fast for socialism. I'm for the United States of America. A patriot. I don't like the way I see this country going and the erosion of the power of the individual. This is just the beginning. America is tired of government and how they just keep screwing everything up. You work hard, become successful and your ostracized as the demon "rich." You sit on your butt, are a drain on society and you're rewarded with a welfare check. There are so many things wrong with the way America is going and thank goodness, people are starting to awaken, pay attention, and stand up against it. I say, good job New York! Let's roll!

"Governments don't create anything. They produce nothing. They manufacture zilch.

That's odd. Then where did all these roads and telephone poles and schools and fighter planes and tanks come from?"

You're kidding, right? Gov't taxes us and then hires private companies to do these things. Do you think there's a government-owned telephone pole factory? A government-owned construction company? A government-owned airplane plant or tank factory? My god, this is why liberals are in lala land--they think the government is actually doing these things.

Oh, and you know why only 200 people showed up for this? Because NYC is a city of 8 million where 40,000 people pay 50% of the taxes. It pays to lean left in NYC because such a very small number of people are footing the bill. In any sane society these 40,000 would be respected and thanked; in NYC they're booed and told they're going to be sucked dry.

If you choose to look around, there have been Tea Parties all over the country, and many have turnouts in the thousands. But you won't see much reporting on them. Yeah, you'll see a report about 15 Code Pink protesters in Berkeley, but 15,000 Tea Partiers in Fullerton, CA don't get any press.

What is blatently obvious is that there is a reason there are only 200 people protesting. How many of us who believe in these protesters are nervous about taking a day off from work to join them in in this rough economy? When you not working and you're protesting for more free hand outs, it's a bit easier to get together en masse. I think there are tens of thousands that are ready to pull their hair out over B.O., yet they can't afford to take the chance of losing their jobs. That is the only reason for the 200+ turnout rather than 20,000.

Listen! I'm a teacher, daughter of a nyc policeman. A man who had four chidren and in the 1970's worked three jobs to support his kids. Those kids grew up with his work ethic and each went to school(paying for it on our own), got a job and like the generation before tried to do better than the generation before. My husband and I both work and are the lucky (huh) few that make just over 250,00 a year. Guess what! OBAMA believes I am rich! ARE YOU KIDDING ME! I LIVE IN NEW YORK!!! I pay higher taxes than anyone in the nation. So he wants to take my money that I have worked all of these years for so I can pay for someone who sits on their ass.My father always said"the harder you try the luckier you get"! EXCEPT WHEN YOUR PRESIDENT IS OBAMA> MORE TEA PARTIES PLEASE....

Whens the next protest in NYC? Its amazing none of these protest around the nation made the news. This isnt a right vs. left thing, wake up liberals!! conservatives are just as angry at the bush administration and republicans for allowing the first bailout to pass!!

Having read the amazing dirty longjohn list of ranting here, anyone else notice that those identifying themselves as liberal, Democrat, etc. use far more hateful language and anagrams using words beginning with "f" than the others posting here? Just a thought. Not even just here, actually, look at almost any political blog or news source that supports comments.

Socialists who want everyone treated the same regardless of what effort they put into the system and who want government to be the mommy or daddy they never had may soon find (assuming they can see past their own dogmatic adherence to failed utopian political ideas) that most Americans treat each other much better than those of your misguided passion choose to treat us ("us" being Americans for those playing at home.) Is it not the last desperate attempt of those who realize they have no defense for their position to lash out irrationally and name-call? I know that's what I learned in public school. Nah-nah-nah-nah-nah-nah!

I invite anyone who would so easily resort to such tactics to read some source material and return armed with actual facts instead of parroting MSNBC, CNN, The NY Times, Matt Lauer, Katie Couric... Might I suggest the Federalist Papers, IRS tax returns for Bush and Obama for the last 10 years (special attention to gross income and percent given to charity,) Atlas Shrugged, public records for economic policy of the Clinton Administration (special attention to his forcing political agenda on the mortgage industry, long reaching effects thereof,) and for that matter American history and Economics texts. Try listening to those you call hate mongers such as Mr. Limbaugh and see if he actually says anything hateful. Seriously. Then listen to Main Stream Media interview someone of a conservative bent (might I suggest Ann Coulter interviews on Today Show) and tell me if you hear animosity there. Equal treatment and reaching across aisles, indeed.

This Conservative (not Republican) is neither a Have nor a Have-more but hopes that this is still an America where my hard work will earn me success in life, is not a business owner but will cheer and defend entrepreneurship and capitalism, shuns organized religion but reviles the hypocritical stance of libs who attack Christians for their faith while worshiping socialism and its current figurehead.

Hooray for tea parties! Can we throw BHO in, too?

You fiberals are retarded. Have fun picking through the garbage after the Massa o'bomba created the United Socialist States of America.

BTY when the electric grid goes down you better have lots of batteries for your idiotPods otherwise you might have to listen to reality

This is directed to Amused Canadian. I was one of the "losers" who attended this rally. You need to get your facts straight before you start popping off. Myself and others like me (like most of the people at that rally) did not create the two America's you referred to. We believe that every American should be able to succeed as much as their desire and God-given talents allow. I myself am poor/middle class. But I have never had the hatred in my heart or mind that I see some on the left posses towards the upper class. Nobody here waged war on the middle class, but rather encouraged people to do the best they can and earn what they are worth, without it just being handed to them via government. Secondly, the War in Iraq is not an illegal war. Its an unpopular war, but not illegal. Thirdly, trillions of dollars have not been spent in Iraq. Know what you are talking next time less you make a fool of yourself. The War in Iraq has only cost a little over $600 Billion. Yes thats alot of money...but not Trillions. And finally, no one is calling Obama "Hilter". The comparison was based on how the president can present a wonderful sounding speech, just as Hitler could to his masses. The point being, just because you can talk eloquently doesn't mean you have the best ideas!

This is directed to Amused Canadian. I was one of the "losers" who attended this rally. You need to get your facts straight before you start popping off. Myself and others like me (like most of the people at that rally) did not create the two America's you referred to. We believe that every American should be able to succeed as much as their desire and God-given talents allow. I myself am poor/middle class. But I have never had the hatred in my heart or mind that I see some on the left posses towards the upper class. Nobody here waged war on the middle class, but rather encouraged people to do the best they can and earn what they are worth, without it just being handed to them via government. Secondly, the War in Iraq is not an illegal war. Its an unpopular war, but not illegal. Thirdly, trillions of dollars have not been spent in Iraq. Know what you are talking next time less you make a fool of yourself. The War in Iraq has only cost a little over $600 Billion. Yes thats alot of money...but not Trillions. And finally, no one is calling Obama "Hilter". The comparison was based on how the president can present a wonderful sounding speech, just as Hitler could to his masses. The point being, just because you can talk eloquently doesn't mean you have the best ideas!

Government "Control" of Private Property and Business is FASCISM..... by definition... regardless of which party is in charge at the time....

Enjoy what you have asked for.....

Too bad you're all in the minority!

But don't ask me, I'm a socialist!

When will the republican right wing in the house and senate (some who seem to frequent prostitutes) realize the sexual connotation of "tea bagging?" This just adds to the laughing stock they have become. At least do research to say up with current events and slang.

The party of NO is not presenting any real ideas, they seem to have just left the baby ( wars, economy and more) on the door steps for President Obama to raise ( fix). Support our country and President Obama in this time of repair from the Bush administration.

Thi isn't all about being 'anti-Obama'. That's a convenient way to try to demean teh effort. It's about returing to some guiding principals that made us great in the first place. Stop with the My Team/Your Team mentality. If we can't recognize that many of the people we keep sending to represent (in both parties) us have absolutely no interest in doing that we remain doomed. No game can be effectively played when the rules can change with every turn. We need to return to the Constitutional foundation as was intended without all the twisting of it's clear and simple language and intent.

WE HAVE TO TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY!THOSE PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR MR OBAMA, I CALL HIM MR. BECAUSE I DID NOT VOTE FOR HIM, HE DOES SCARE ME, HE IS TAKING THIS COUNTRY SO FAR TO THE LEFT, HE IS A SOCIALITE, COMMUNIST.
HE IS SO SMOOTH, LIKE HILTER, AND ALL THE
OTHER CRAZY DICTATOR'S, HE ALSO IS FRIENDS WITH ALL THE COMMIES, BOWS DOWN TO THEM,
HE IS THE MOST ARROGANT PERSON I EVER SEEN IN A PRESIDENT! THE MEDIA GIVES HIM A PASS
ON ANYTHING HE WANTS TO DO! AND ITS OK BY THEM!
ALSO WHERE DOES THE PRESS SAY HE IS THE HERO
GIVE ME A BREAK!! ON THE TERRIOSIT CAPTURE
OF CAP, PHILLIP, THE NAVY SEALS AND THE CAPTAIN ARE THE HERO'S, MR OBAMA WISHES
HE COULD BE A HERO!MY THREE BROTHERS SERVED IN THIS GREAT COUNTRY, WHAT HAS HE DONE? NOTHING!!!!I AM SICK OF THIS MAN, IF PEOPLE WANT TO CALL ME A RACIST THEN LET THEM!

Giorgio---you cweepy damaged slit. WTF? Id love to bitchslap you with a seal fetus.

Wow, these all caps posts are awesome. Very stylish and oh so convincing. Not as much as a protest or demonstration.

We live in a country owned by the banks. The president in nothing more than a puppet controlled by the banks and corporations.

Obama won't change the country. He has no power and he works for the same people that are slaving us. The Bankers and the Federal Bank.

You think we have a democracy? How do we have a democracy if Obama and Mccain electoral funds were backed by the same people.
If both are employed by the same people, it's a win-win situation for them.

Whoever gets elected is controlled by the same corporations that are trying to slave us, dont kid yourself that we have a president because we don't.

Money equal power and the Federal reserve makes money out of thin air and lends it to our government with interest.

Wake up people and start researching where all of our income taxes money goes to. 1913 was the year that we all became slaves of a few bankers.

The last honorable man that we had as president was JFK, and remember what happened to him.

Their were a lot more then 250 people. I got their at 7ish and it was all the way down the block. When I left close to 9pm Their were people lined up on the side streets. I had to stand around 2 blcoks away from the stage (north south blocks btw) I would say thier was between 2-3000 people all together

The Tea Parties are symbolic of the original Tea Party in Boston. The people were outraged and overtaxed by the King. It was about taxation without representation.

Our Current President rushed the Stimulus bill through the other Branches of Government. Thousands of people wrote to those representatives with protest. It passed. The people are angry the House and the Senate are not listening to the People.

This is what happens when the public stops caring about Local politics. We only care about the Presidental elections. As if he holds all the power. We historically the President did not hold much power. All that has changed. This President Forced Congress to act without reading the bill!!! That is the actions of a DICTATOR! It must STOP. We can not tolerate rash decisions as solutions. We have a balance of power and a consitution to protect states rights and the peoples rights!

Fight for stronger state and local rights and take it out of the hands of the FEDERAL GOVERMENT. The closer to the people the less tyranny.

When your struts come through your hood after
hitting a pothole; when your street doesn't
get plowed after a snow storm; when there are
50 kids in a classroom; when it takes the fire truck 15 minutes to get to your burning
house; when it takes a week to fix a water main break; when your garbage doesn't get picked up; when a road is closed because of
a collapsed bridge, etc. then you have reason
to complain about taxes. Until then just shut
up and be thankful for all that you are getting. If you want services you have to pay
the bill.

We don't need the Federal Government to fix roads...or plow our streets..or fund our schools...or our firestations. This is about the Federal taxes not local or state!!

We realize you need taxes to help with public works. That is a given here. I think the point here is the direct link of money and power. If a Federal government holds too much of our labor and we don't have it that is a loss of power in the hands of the people. It is a very simple equation.

Money=Power.

The government is shrinking the Rich...so that they may hold the wealth. They have made us envious of the rich. So rather than ourselves aspiring to be rich and bettering ourselves. We are happy with what we have...and are all on anti-depressants!!!!
We are all becoming more and more apathetic to the control of our leaders. We have become less inovative and creative. Where are the free thinkers? Not the PC thinkers...that are being produced in our Colleges now.

Let Free Enterprize work. If it did there would be more Mom and Pop buisnesses...and less large Walmarts! Why do we have so many Corporation...stores??? Because of Governments involvement and heavy taxing.. which forces the little guys out of buisness. So the big companies have the bailouts and banking backing them to stay competative. They can produce worldwide.

If there were less involvement by the government.. Small buisness would boom!!! Therefor providing taxes locally to the municipalities and towns and cities..

The God of Israel does not change.

You got that right. He's still the same smelly pile of ignorant horseshit he's always been.

STOP! what the hell are these ppl thinking. it took 8 f----n yrs to get this country to the point we are broke and defunked! And these ppl sre blaming on a guy thats been in office less than 100 days. What about the guy that was there for the 2920 plus days before this one? you know the one that said in in the final debate when asked gov. bush how will you deal with the no fly zone restiction in Iraq and all the man had to say those ppl tryed to kill my father.ok you bunch of blind tv involed self center f----n morons! get a grip! this country is has lost it way because we let it happen. turn off news. FOX MSNBC these ppl are here to redirct you and your thoughts, beliefs and morels. ok the (war on terror) was over in 2 weeks we had control of Afganistan and benladen on the run and hiding we had no reason to invade Iraq and it has cost many a young men and women. dedacated to a beleif that all ppl have right to self govern. and freedom speech. Who are we to dictate to impose our policy and beliefs on them. its over are young ppl are coming home and then we will get the right guy. Now for the shape the counrty's in we have no one to blame but ourselves. We have become sheep! the shepard says follow and we do blindly. the add for the new car says buy honda it #1 toyota its #1ok we do it. the average income in this country over the last 2 decades has be 50.000 dollars a year but we all want 60,000 dollar cars and trucks (2 per household). new 500,000 dollar homes send our kids to the best schools.dress them in the finest clothes we can buy. But oh shoot i am out of MONEY but this credit card will do it but hold on how will we pay for that? oh we will refinance our homes now we can can do it. WRONG like my grandma said back in the day. Well i will have to wait til i have the money. ppl we did not wait . so here we are blaming the ppl that are trying to pull us out of the hole we dug for selves. so shut the fuck up live with in your means down grade your home not the morgae. pay off your car not by a new one every 2 years. and get rid of the credit cards. then you might have a chance at saving this country buy american cars. shop at walmart not bloomingdales. wait til you have the money and quit shooting yourslves in the foot!

It's so frustrating that the more liberal commenters here can be so clever in their rhetoric and yet so ignorant and sheep-like in their core beliefs. Let me make this really simple for you. Obama is probably one of the three central figures most responsible for the housing crisis that leveled our economy. He spent his entire short political career blasting anyone who didn't think that it was a good idea to say "yes" to anyone who wanted a home-loan, on pain of being considered a racist. When the foreclosures started, Obama, Barney Frank and the rest of them (including George Bush, who had taken credit for the housing boom as well) all threw up their hands and blamed "big business", instead of admitting that their intervention in the housing market to make it more "fair" is what ruined everything.

Obama is cutting taxes? Beautiful. That makes a lot of sense seeing as how he's giving us a nearly 2 TRILLION dollar deficit this year alone- a nice band-aid that will temporarily spike the economy enough so that he can take credit for turning things around. Oh, wait, there's a problem. We don't have 2 trillion dollars. No one does. We're borrowing it, and the many trillions more that Obama and company will spend before he leaves office. When it's time to pay the bill, Obama will be long gone and some other poor sucker will be in the White House left with the check- along with our kids and grandkids...but who cares about them? We have a "crisis"- unemployment is almost as bad as it was back in the great "crisis" of 1981. Surely this calls for unprecedented money-printing. Have fun with that, liberals. I don't see what's so "bleeding heart" about robbing your own kids.

Oh and another thing. It's always cute to hear people say "this country has been going downhill for 8 years." Baaa-aaha.

I don't know if your history books only go back 8 years or not, but illegal wire-tapping was going on back during the Clinton administration. President Kennedy was wire-tapping Martin Luther King's hotel rooms. He also embroiled us in the Korean war- remember that? You should, since a lot more people died there than in Iraq. And the federal debt has been skyrocketing since the WW2 days. Bush is just one in a long line of lying big-spenders, and he's not even the latest anymore.

You can't possibly be so simple-minded as to think that this all started with Bush. But he has an "R" next to his name so he's evil, and Obama is going to save us because he has a "D" next to his. Whatever works for you I guess....

Man I cant believe I missed it. Im so glad to see people waking up to the lies that obama is selling, He is all Wall.st and Big banks. He does not care for the middle class just big companies. He is turning this county communist. He is expanding Bush's illegal wiretapping, setting up a cyber security and a civilian national workforce. He is giving more power to the federal reserve the same one that got us all into this mess. A democracy is a mob rule government. Federal reserve is a nasty company that funds both sides of war and steals our money. END THE FED. Support Ron Paul.

". . .whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." Declaration of Independence

My latest book, "Call to Arms" has been released 9/2/09!

My hope is that my "Prayer for America" will be read from my book throughout this great nation."

We need to stand in strength and in prayer toegether as a nation.

Thank you for being the true American that you are.

God's best only to you.

Faith Powers
Author

http://www.calltoarmsbook.com/

Also includes: Prayer for America, The Constitution of the United States, The Bill of Rights, and The Declaration of Independence,365 Days of Inspirational notes.

My latest book, "Call to Arms" has been released 9/2/09!

My hope is that my "Prayer for America" will be read from my book throughout this great nation."

We need to stand in strength and in prayer together as a nation.

Thank you for being the true American that you are.

God's best only to you.

Faith Powers
Author

http://www.calltoarmsbook.com/

Also includes: Prayer for America, The Constitution of the United States, The Bill of Rights, and The Declaration of Independence,365 Days of Inspirational notes.

My latest book, "Call to Arms" has been released 9/2/09!

My hope is that my "Prayer for America" will be read from my book throughout this great nation."

We need to stand in strength and in prayer together as a nation.

Thank you for being the true American that you are.

God's best only to you.

Faith Powers
Author

http://www.calltoarmsbook.com/

Also includes: Prayer for America, The Constitution of the United States, The Bill of Rights, and The Declaration of Independence,365 Days of Inspirational notes.

My latest book, "Call to Arms" has been released 9/2/09!

My hope is that my "Prayer for America" will be read from my book throughout this great nation."

Thank you for being the true Americans that you are.

God's best only to you.

Faith Powers
Author

http://www.calltoarmsbook.com/

Learn to fight to win!

My latest book, "Call to Arms" has been released 9/2/09!

My hope is that my "Prayer for America" will be read from my book throughout this great nation."

Thank you for being the true Americans that you are.

God's best only to you.

Faith Powers
Author

http://www.calltoarmsbook.com/

Learn to fight to win!

what is going on?

I'm running scared.