After hearing about Sodini's coffee table book on seduction, I immediately went to Google to find information on whether he was using Speed Seduction. I honestly tried Speed Seduction for over a year, and I can claim absolutely NO positive results. NONE. You're EXACTLY right about all it does is give nice guys a "backbone". I already had one before I did Speed Seduction.

Love this part of the article you posted: "Both seem to regard women as little more than easily bamboozled sperm receptacles."

Yup. Very easy to fool, unless you have no game.

Well, Ross Jeffries does know how to get a makeout in like 30 seconds. It's so easy it's not even funny. I was out with my buddy old gy? And it was like makeout, makeout, makeout. 9s and 10s everywhere, BOOM. BOOM.

It's a masterpiece.

I have seen this method as I have seen all the methods in the seduction community and this method is not a method that will work.

If you want to have the best and most exciting experience of your life that will give you success with women and dating sign up for a free tour with real social dynamics.

www.rsdfreetour.com

Those last two comments were not real but character sketches.

Those last two comments were not real but character sketches.

Those last two comments were not real but character sketches.

those last two comments were not real and were not funny character sketches, please remove

This is proof of what the pick up community does to you. It fucks with you and you end up fucked up in the head like this guy. Mystery, Ross Jefferies, Owen Cook--as well as all their mentally deranged cronies should be thrown in prison and the key should be thrown away.

A phone consultation with Barry Kirkey and this would NEVER have happened.

I'm appalled at Sodini's act of domestic terrorism and mass murder.

Had he come to one of my events, I would have sent him packing in need of professional help.

I hope the media will not paint all men who seek to improve their skills with women, with the bloody brush of Mr. Sodini,

Ross Jeffries
http://www.seduction.com/blog

Hey Ross, you jew, you're no fucking better. How do you live with yourself??? Asshole.

It's a shame that men are throwing away $$$ on books by losers like Steele and Jeffries who consider attracting women a "game". They'd be better off taking a good shower (and removing most body hair if they're interested in attracting women 30 and under), getting an attractive haircut, buying some new clothes, and brushing up on a variety of topics women might be interested in discussing (e.g., the Henry Louis Gates arrest rather than they're recent acquisition of the nth season of some dweeby sci-fi series).

Sodini's house is super creepy. Furnished by Goodwill and leftovers from his grandmother's basement? For a 48-year old educated IT professional, his home is grossly underfurnished. That right there would be a stopper for me. I'm not expecting Architectural Digest, but I am expecting something better than "just starting out".

It's a shame that men are throwing away $$$ on books by losers like Steele and Jeffries who consider attracting women a "game". They'd be better off taking a good shower (and removing most body hair if they're interested in attracting women 30 and under), getting an attractive haircut, buying some new clothes, and brushing up on a variety of topics women might be interested in discussing (e.g., the Henry Louis Gates arrest rather than they're recent acquisition of the nth season of some dweeby sci-fi series).

Sodini's house is super creepy. Furnished by Goodwill and leftovers from his grandmother's basement? For a 48-year old educated IT professional, his home is grossly underfurnished. That right there would be a stopper for me. I'm not expecting Architectural Digest, but I am expecting something better than "just starting out".

("their", not "they're")

This is a cheap shot at Don Steele. The primary difference between Steele and Jeffries is that Steele actually respects women and he insists that men tell the truth when dealing with them. Jeffries, in contrast wants to use negs, NLP, and outright lies (e.g. initially pretending to be gay to disarm a woman during first conversation). That Sodini had Steele's book or attended a SB workshop is irrelevant. The guy was mentally ill and HTDYW wasn't the cause or a contributing factor to the illness. Let's face it. Most men do prefer to date younger women. FWIW, if anecdotal evidence counts for something (like Steele's book in a video), I've read Steele's materials and attended one workshop. Currently, I'm married to a woman who is 12 years younger than me and couldn't be happier. Steele was a contributing factor to learning how to date again after going through a divorce from hell. Between Jeffries and Steele, I'd pick Steele's dating methods (and respect for women) every time.

This poor man was completely mesmerized by materialism and having "the best".

I could totally see how women where turned-off by this guy. He comes off as a robot driven to simply have an artificial world for her to feel "comfortable" in.

This poor guy needed help a long time ago.

It bothers me that these guys are falling through the cracks and ending up taking violent action against others when their "perfect world" isn't accepted by females.

They forgot to mention that another student of Ross Jeffries was...David De Angelo. De Angelo and Jeffries had a falling out after Jeffies banged his girlfriend. So De Angelo went off to create a more "ethical" for of these manipulative techniques. Men taking advantage of other men. A lot of the stuff works...alot of it doesn't. There are a lot of lonely men being victimized by these snake oil peddlers. This is only the beginning.

Sorry...that is "a more ethical form of it." I'm a film maker planning on doing a documentary on this industry. I think it would be very interesting.

How amusing that the "gurus" are acting like all this guy did was buy the RWONG RPRODUCT.

One guru RAPED his ex by thretening to kill her and her kids if she didn't leave a bar with him (the other gurus who market him covered it up). Other guys just spend the money they make and offer Hollywood connections.

Some of these guys harassed my mother when she was dying, and used white-supremacist groups to try to silence me (big connection between white-supremacists and the "community"). The media ate this stuff up even though it knew about the problems, as it was only ME they were going after at the time.

As I said years ago: one day someone you actually care about will wind up hurt by these guys.

These gurus also con men out of student-aid checks (calling it an "investment in education"), they've stolent their teachings from guys like me (I have copyrights to prove it), and the media circus helped enable this by fueling this man's expectations.

The bad news is that this is just the first of what will probably be dozens or hundreds of men who finally give up once the promises don't work.

Sure, a GURU can get laid at an LA party by some desperate actress who wants his money, but George Sodini can't use that technique.

By the way, how come all those women Neil supposedly seduced before he met Lisa never surfaced to claim their 15 minutes of fame, despite being so power-hungry and opportunistic?

How amusing that the "gurus" are acting like all this guy did was buy the RWONG RPRODUCT.

One guru RAPED his ex by thretening to kill her and her kids if she didn't leave a bar with him (the other gurus who market him covered it up). Other guys just spend the money they make and offer Hollywood connections.

Some of these guys harassed my mother when she was dying, and used white-supremacist groups to try to silence me (big connection between white-supremacists and the "community"). The media ate this stuff up even though it knew about the problems, as it was only ME they were going after at the time.

As I said years ago: one day someone you actually care about will wind up hurt by these guys.

These gurus also con men out of student-aid checks (calling it an "investment in education"), they've stolent their teachings from guys like me (I have copyrights to prove it), and the media circus helped enable this by fueling this man's expectations.

The bad news is that this is just the first of what will probably be dozens or hundreds of men who finally give up once the promises don't work.

Sure, a GURU can get laid at an LA party by some desperate actress who wants his money, but George Sodini can't use that technique.

By the way, how come all those women Neil supposedly seduced before he met Lisa never surfaced to claim their 15 minutes of fame, despite being so power-hungry and opportunistic?

These "gurus" know damn well what happened: just like the women they use for sex, the CUSTOMERS they use for money or "cred" sometimes snap when the implied promises don't materialize. Speed-seduction creates emotional highs based on EXPECTATIONS from the words, with the "weasels" only IMPLYING an "incredible" connection. Many other "gurus" teach being an "alpha male" without reminding the student that if the other side doesn't play along, the "alpha" either has to turn tail and run, which is humiliating, or escalate. Sodini did the latter.

The "community" would be called a CARTEL in any other industry. They have been censoring dissenters for years, so they have achieved CULT like status, feuled by media acceptance. There are THOUSANDS of Sodinis in the "community," which was designed to exclude people like ME, guys who wrote inexpensive books years ago (mine were "outfoxing the foxes" and "29 reasons not to be a nice guy"). My books were $29.95 each, which didn't sit well with the marketing machine that wanted to sell the same info for thousands. This caused it to move to the web, exclude competing advertisers, censor any disagreement, and ban anyone who mentioned me or my products. Sodini only saw their side of the debate, and, since he had a need to belong, was won over by "crowd logic."

One of these gurus RAPED his ex-girlfriend by threatening to kill her and her kids if she left a bar with another men. Those who promoted him knew this, and swept it under the rug. Others have lied about me for years, and even threatened my mother (yeah, real alpha to "tell someone's mother") when she was dying, and I was her primary caregiver. They could have gone to prison for that if the cops had wanted, but I'm not a sympathetic victim like the LA fitness women.

They con men out of student-aid checks by marketing heavily in August to desperate college students who want an edge for the semester, and have gotten people in power, including the criminal division of the justice department (specifically a contract worker for them who drugs and rapes strippers he meets online), to abuse their clearance and connections, on their behalf.

When I complained about this, *I* was painted as the problem, while the media couldn't get enough of these guys, even when they were publicly harassing and defaming me in concert with white-supremacists. Like Sodini, that they did it in full view of the world didn't move anyone to act. Now people act shocked -- SHOCKED, I tell ya -- that someone else finally wound up hurt. Bad news: Sodini is ONE of THOUSANDS in this CULT, and copycats are not likely, but inevitable. There's too many losers who have been promised too much by these "gurus" for any other outcome to occur.

I had my work STOLEN by the media, as I created the "pivot" and most "indirect" techniques, while those who would trash me were often using my stolen ideas, so I pulled back. Now that the current methods are worthless, as this guy proves, my NEW stuff is for sale, to ONE winner, for a price of $50,000.00, a bargain considering the edge it will give the man smart enough to pay it. I have no interest in the losers trying to warp my stuff or my message.

If the laws had been properly enforced against these community gurus for the last ten years, that shooting may not have happened. Because the CULT was allowed to grow unchecked, however, there are many ticking time bombs out there, many of whom might find inspiration in what Sodini did.

To the media: you brought this one on yourselves by not doing your job, and by making celebrities out of the wrong people. The message that needed to get out -- MINE -- did not. Congrats on your fine work in ruining America just a little bit more.

Ray Gordon
Love Conquers Nothing
http://www.toosmarttofail.com

One thing the government CAN do is stop the false-advertising that leads to the unrealistic expectations that leads to outcomes like this.

Wow, I didn't realize there's a whole "industry" of "help" to men who are so insecure or who have such unreasonable expectations that they need a freaking book to tell them how to act. A book will not help, and putting the book on your coffee table for your prospective victim to see will only make things worse for you!

We live in a very very sick world. So many dysfunctional men!! I just didn't know that they were so dangerous. I might have to get some mace or a gun.

Some of the posts from the men here look like the same mental illness Sodini suffered from. Extreme misogyny with a good dose of some other mental disturbance mixed in. Very scary! SEEK HELP, PLEASE!

I think Oprah needs to do a show about this. I'm going to contact her.

Actually what needs to stop is promising a "soulmate" or "true love" to these LOSERS.

Once you're done calling them LOSERS, then don't ask them for money or favors, or to be "just friends," and the problems about which you complain will solve themselves.

If Sodini had said it was hopoeless for him to find the women he wanted, women would have told him to keep his hopes up, be himself, and highlighted his job and money as an example of what a good catch he was.

If some woman had called him the names you just did, he would have known not to bother searching for love.

Maybe now we can stop lying to the nice guys.

Oh, and how do you explain all the crappy men who do get women? Are women good judges of character, or do they like slimebuckets?

Are you saying a man has to be getting laid before you stop calling him names?

Are fat and ugly women LOERS as well for wanting men they can't get?

Your logic has disturbing implications. Oh, and what does the woman who shot Steve McNair prove?

That you didn't even know this industry exists suggests you're a bit out of the loop.

Does it make you little boys feel more manly to engage in manipulation?

Do you plan on spending your entire lives bouncing from one manipulated woman to the next, until you reach a point where no matter what games you play you can't get one because your sickness will be so visible you won't be able to cover it up?

Then you'll end up like Sodini, who became acutely aware of the passing time and realized that the games don't work, no more women would have him. He knew he'd be alone for the rest of his life and he couldn't stand it. And instead of being a man and blaming himself, he was a little boy and blamed the women.

When you get to that point, PLEASE kill yourself and not other people. The problem is YOU and only YOU. YOU set yourself up for this disaster by nurturing, instead of fixing, your misogyny and control problems.

Who is "anonymous" talking to?

Certainly not me. I figured out how women behave years ago, and don't even bother rying to change them. As "anonymous" said, if a guy can't get laid, it's his fault.

That a guy who does get laid, gets laid with "manipulation" is not his fault, it's a MORAL HAZARD created by the women.

Women want to laugh and say "you're so BAD!" to the guys who treat them like crap, while crapping on the guys who would treat them well. Why would a woman assume that men stay nice when they know they can just become "jerks" and get laid?

Of course, if they were real jerks, women wouldn't want them, right?

Women can't confront their own stupidity about men, since they know they pass up decent guys like this for losers. This "decent guy" just had enough of being called the same names the previous poster was calling the men here.

Tell me, what do you think of Steve McNair's woman, who shot him four times after she realized he wouldn't be marrying her? Wsa it HER fault for not being attractive enough?

Whatever your rules, please enforce them equally.

Ray, you tell me that I'm "out of the loop" for not knowing that your industry existed. Not really, I'm female.

Despite being quite imperfect and not willing to do what many other women will do to get men (e.g., remove every hair from my body, engage in near-anorexic dieting, or have plastic bags put into my breasts), I've never had that much of a problem finding men to date. Yes, there were men who I've liked who weren't interested in dating me, plenty of them in fact. But there have been men who liked me who I was not interested in dating. It's part of life, the natural result of personal preferences! Rejection doesn't necessarily imply that the rejected person is a "loser".

I'm beginning to think a "loser" is a person who can't handle rejection, and with each rejection the anger builds up until the person explodes and either commits suicide or kills others.

The fact that people have their own personal preferences is precisely why formulaic methods don't work. Formulaic methods necessarily clump people together into a small number of groups that the students can grasp. What happens when a student finds out that his/her Group A target exhibits behaviors that aren't characteristics of Group A? Does the student have to whip out the book and figure out what other group the target might belong to? Does the student get frustrated and angry and think the target is flawed because the target doesn't fit perfectly into Group A? Does the student buy another book or attend another class because the current book/class is obviously flawed? (As if the next one will be any better...)

This is all so sad and frightening I can hardly wrap my head around it! It appears that this industry is targeting mentally ill men and not only enabling their psychoses but providing methods for covering them up. I suspect that one reason why these mentally ill men tend to target very young women is because very young women are naive. Older women would be able to spot the psychoses much more easily, younger women aren't as good at it. This is only slightly less horrifying than rape.

I see a new industry opening up, books and classes for young women to teach them how to spot the psychotic men who reads books to get sex.

Anonymous Writes:

"Ray, you tell me that I'm "out of the loop" for not knowing that your industry existed. Not really, I'm female."

Which means you weren't aware that the men you were dealing with were reading this stuff. Or do you think you're such a perfect judge of men you automatically rule them out? I wrote books back in 1999 that tried to WARN women of this stuff, but until the major media told them, they didn't want to hear it. Then in 2007, they're like "we're onto you." Yeah, a decade late.

"Despite being quite imperfect and not willing to do what many other women will do to get men (e.g., remove every hair from my body, engage in near-anorexic dieting, or have plastic bags put into my breasts), I've never had that much of a problem finding men to date."

That's called SETTLING. It does work, just like a minimum-wage job pays the bills. So you're not even the type of woman these men are paying to learn how to get, if that's true.

"Yes, there were men who I've liked who weren't interested in dating me, plenty of them in fact. But there have been men who liked me who I was not interested in dating. It's part of life, the natural result of personal preferences! Rejection doesn't necessarily imply that the rejected person is a "loser"."

When the "preferences" tend towards the shallow, that's EXACTLY what it implies. Not all men believe they should settle when clearly inferior men do not have to. This is a "moral hazard" created by pretty women who go for the jerks. If you're going to tell me not to want pretty women, that's a separate issue, but you won't get very far with any man that way.

"I'm beginning to think a "loser" is a person who can't handle rejection, and with each rejection the anger builds up until the person explodes and either commits suicide or kills others."

The guy handled rejection just fine. What he couldn't handle was being LIED to. What the women couldn't handle was him giving up, so they would say things like "be yourself" or "be patient" or "you'll find someone one day." Men see those words as PROMISES, and women cash them in, because it keeps the men friendly enough to do favors, lend money, hook women up with jobs, etc. If men didn't "objectify" women, the pretty women wouldn't be able to live advantaged lifestyles. Seems few want that, so instead they exploit sex-addicted males like this. It's also fine for you to reject me, just as it's fine for me to ignore you forever if you do ("you" being any woman I want). Maybe now women will see why guys they reject often don't want to remain friends.

"The fact that people have their own personal preferences is precisely why formulaic methods don't work."

Those "preferences" are very predictable. This is why men know when they get rich and famous, the trophy-wife shows up, etc. Or why a woman who improves her looks has the rich guys showing up. Are you claiming to know more than the world's best researchers because your emotions want something other than what they conclude to be true? These fairy-tales are what cause guys like this to snap, after they were told to buy into them.

"Formulaic methods necessarily clump people together into a small number of groups that the students can grasp."

Human behavior experts disagree with you strongly. Should we revoke their Ph.D.s? Women stereotype men all the time, even speculating on their ability to get laid based on superficial impressions that are often not far off. The "methods" can work great, if they are good methods. However, my method isn't the same as Steele's, nor the others. That's a problem of the internet, where every information product is treated as if they were equal, like television sets or something. Advice doesn't work that way, yet we want to "brand" it.

I have plenty of "formula" techniques for getting laid that work ENOUGH of the time to make it worth using them. I have a method that gets me laid by 3-5 percent of the strippers I approach, like clockwork. All formula. Women tend to behave alike, often enough for men to use trial-and-error to figure out how. This guy's problem was he wanted success without having to do the necessary work.

The amount of work I have put into figuring out women and getting laid in my life is mind-boggling, but it was important to me, and it definitely paid off. The reason I don't share as much now is it's not that profitable yet for me to do so. A few loudmouths who appeal to this type of guy got famous, while the "nice guy gurus" got shafted, as the men, and their women, cheered it on.

"What happens when a student finds out that his/her Group A target exhibits behaviors that aren't characteristics of Group A? Does the student have to whip out the book and figure out what other group the target might belong to? Does the student get frustrated and angry and think the target is flawed because the target doesn't fit perfectly into Group A? Does the student buy another book or attend another class because the current book/class is obviously flawed? (As if the next one will be any better...)"

Some gurus do milk their audience. As I wrote a few books, all of which were based on methods that worked for me for years, I tended not to have that problem, but no reader of mine ever expects 100 percent success. It's just a numbers game once you remove love from the equation.

Now, if women are so ethical, why did I see a film of the Gramercy Park Hotel where a woman is bragging she got a staff job through a MODELING agency? If women are against objectification, why do they tolerate this? If they say "that's how the world is" they are proving my point. Seems they worry more about being pretty enough for the job than for the ugly women who can't get it. For the record, the hotel hired male models too. Do ugly people not deserve WORK too? If they go "psycho" after being made homeless by this are they the problem, or the discrimination?

"This is all so sad and frightening I can hardly wrap my head around it! It appears that this industry is targeting mentally ill men and not only enabling their psychoses but providing methods for covering them up."

They do target men with Asperger's, because those men cannot spot con artists, and are easily conned. I warned about this as well. People said I was a "hater," while the gurus themselves excluded me from their websites, even harassed my mom when she was dying of cancer. I was her primary caregiver. Meanwhile, women would often reject me for "living with mom," as if I needed a good job and a nice house....like Sodini. Not ALL women rejected me, however, and I liked being golddigger-immune. Most guys want to pretend they aren't with golddiggers, even if they don't do anything to repel them. I repelled them. All that were left were women who didn't care about my finances. Excellent natural selection tool.

"I suspect that one reason why these mentally ill men tend to target very young women is because very young women are naive."

No, it's because they are PRETTY, and more women are mentally ill than men, just not held accountable for it. What about Steve McNair? Women create this MORAL HAZARD by rewarding bad behavior. You're acting like it's Wall Street's fault for taking bailout money and not Washington's fault for handing it out.

"Older women would be able to spot the psychoses much more easily, younger women aren't as good at it. This is only slightly less horrifying than rape."

I don't agree. Younger women WANT this type of man. Otherwise the methods wouldn't have worked. Every time they treat a guy like this like crap, they confuse him, send him to the internet, and sell this type of product. What needs to happen, won't, and that's for women to start giving honest men an honest chance. Women don't play this game fair, and never have. Until they do, guys like Sodini get wiped out until they snap. I see him more as an extreme activist than mentally ill. He was highly functional, and had a specific purpose to show the world that women don't want decent men. His mission was accomplished. His real message is simple: STOP PROMISING TRUE LOVE TO MEN. Women do this all the time. Let men give up on women, let them isolate, let them withdraw money and favors, stop being their friends, and let them be the losers you don't want to sleep with. Don't string them along for entertainment while denying them the only thing they are talking to you in the hope of getting.

"I see a new industry opening up, books and classes for young women to teach them how to spot the psychotic men who reads books to get sex."

Was Steve McNair's girlfriend proof that women are psychos that men need to avoid? Didn't see much in the media about that one. Shot four times on his own couch by a woman he'd given a 60k car to. What do you call THAT? Is it a symptom of problems with women?

Until women can stop the insults, and have a proper discussion about this, with the RIGHT men, nothing will change. They just want to yell, cheer on Oprah, bash men, and change nothing. This is the result of that.

I wrote "Why Hotties Choose Losers" in 2005, but women are social-climbers, and needed the media to endorse it, which it never did. Did you know many men begin hating women MORE after they find out what gets them laid? They love the sex, but hate what they have to do to get it.

The moral-hazard issue won't go away until women confront it. So far, they refuse to. And yes, there are thousands of men like Sodini in the community. If women want to stop them, get the government to prosecute all the false-[advertising that creates the hopes that lead to the shootings when dashed.

Anonymous Writes:

"Ray, you tell me that I'm "out of the loop" for not knowing that your industry existed. Not really, I'm female."

Which means you weren't aware that the men you were dealing with were reading this stuff. Or do you think you're such a perfect judge of men you automatically rule them out? I wrote books back in 1999 that tried to WARN women of this stuff, but until the major media told them, they didn't want to hear it. Then in 2007, they're like "we're onto you." Yeah, a decade late.

"Despite being quite imperfect and not willing to do what many other women will do to get men (e.g., remove every hair from my body, engage in near-anorexic dieting, or have plastic bags put into my breasts), I've never had that much of a problem finding men to date."

That's called SETTLING. It does work, just like a minimum-wage job pays the bills. So you're not even the type of woman these men are paying to learn how to get, if that's true.

"Yes, there were men who I've liked who weren't interested in dating me, plenty of them in fact. But there have been men who liked me who I was not interested in dating. It's part of life, the natural result of personal preferences! Rejection doesn't necessarily imply that the rejected person is a "loser"."

When the "preferences" tend towards the shallow, that's EXACTLY what it implies. Not all men believe they should settle when clearly inferior men do not have to. This is a "moral hazard" created by pretty women who go for the jerks. If you're going to tell me not to want pretty women, that's a separate issue, but you won't get very far with any man that way.

"I'm beginning to think a "loser" is a person who can't handle rejection, and with each rejection the anger builds up until the person explodes and either commits suicide or kills others."

The guy handled rejection just fine. What he couldn't handle was being LIED to. What the women couldn't handle was him giving up, so they would say things like "be yourself" or "be patient" or "you'll find someone one day." Men see those words as PROMISES, and women cash them in, because it keeps the men friendly enough to do favors, lend money, hook women up with jobs, etc. If men didn't "objectify" women, the pretty women wouldn't be able to live advantaged lifestyles. Seems few want that, so instead they exploit sex-addicted males like this. It's also fine for you to reject me, just as it's fine for me to ignore you forever if you do ("you" being any woman I want). Maybe now women will see why guys they reject often don't want to remain friends.

"The fact that people have their own personal preferences is precisely why formulaic methods don't work."

Those "preferences" are very predictable. This is why men know when they get rich and famous, the trophy-wife shows up, etc. Or why a woman who improves her looks has the rich guys showing up. Are you claiming to know more than the world's best researchers because your emotions want something other than what they conclude to be true? These fairy-tales are what cause guys like this to snap, after they were told to buy into them.

"Formulaic methods necessarily clump people together into a small number of groups that the students can grasp."

Human behavior experts disagree with you strongly. Should we revoke their Ph.D.s? Women stereotype men all the time, even speculating on their ability to get laid based on superficial impressions that are often not far off. The "methods" can work great, if they are good methods. However, my method isn't the same as Steele's, nor the others. That's a problem of the internet, where every information product is treated as if they were equal, like television sets or something. Advice doesn't work that way, yet we want to "brand" it.

I have plenty of "formula" techniques for getting laid that work ENOUGH of the time to make it worth using them. I have a method that gets me laid by 3-5 percent of the strippers I approach, like clockwork. All formula. Women tend to behave alike, often enough for men to use trial-and-error to figure out how. This guy's problem was he wanted success without having to do the necessary work.

The amount of work I have put into figuring out women and getting laid in my life is mind-boggling, but it was important to me, and it definitely paid off. The reason I don't share as much now is it's not that profitable yet for me to do so. A few loudmouths who appeal to this type of guy got famous, while the "nice guy gurus" got shafted, as the men, and their women, cheered it on.

"What happens when a student finds out that his/her Group A target exhibits behaviors that aren't characteristics of Group A? Does the student have to whip out the book and figure out what other group the target might belong to? Does the student get frustrated and angry and think the target is flawed because the target doesn't fit perfectly into Group A? Does the student buy another book or attend another class because the current book/class is obviously flawed? (As if the next one will be any better...)"

Some gurus do milk their audience. As I wrote a few books, all of which were based on methods that worked for me for years, I tended not to have that problem, but no reader of mine ever expects 100 percent success. It's just a numbers game once you remove love from the equation.

Now, if women are so ethical, why did I see a film of the Gramercy Park Hotel where a woman is bragging she got a staff job through a MODELING agency? If women are against objectification, why do they tolerate this? If they say "that's how the world is" they are proving my point. Seems they worry more about being pretty enough for the job than for the ugly women who can't get it. For the record, the hotel hired male models too. Do ugly people not deserve WORK too? If they go "psycho" after being made homeless by this are they the problem, or the discrimination?

"This is all so sad and frightening I can hardly wrap my head around it! It appears that this industry is targeting mentally ill men and not only enabling their psychoses but providing methods for covering them up."

They do target men with Asperger's, because those men cannot spot con artists, and are easily conned. I warned about this as well. People said I was a "hater," while the gurus themselves excluded me from their websites, even harassed my mom when she was dying of cancer. I was her primary caregiver. Meanwhile, women would often reject me for "living with mom," as if I needed a good job and a nice house....like Sodini. Not ALL women rejected me, however, and I liked being golddigger-immune. Most guys want to pretend they aren't with golddiggers, even if they don't do anything to repel them. I repelled them. All that were left were women who didn't care about my finances. Excellent natural selection tool.

"I suspect that one reason why these mentally ill men tend to target very young women is because very young women are naive."

No, it's because they are PRETTY, and more women are mentally ill than men, just not held accountable for it. What about Steve McNair? Women create this MORAL HAZARD by rewarding bad behavior. You're acting like it's Wall Street's fault for taking bailout money and not Washington's fault for handing it out.

"Older women would be able to spot the psychoses much more easily, younger women aren't as good at it. This is only slightly less horrifying than rape."

I don't agree. Younger women WANT this type of man. Otherwise the methods wouldn't have worked. Every time they treat a guy like this like crap, they confuse him, send him to the internet, and sell this type of product. What needs to happen, won't, and that's for women to start giving honest men an honest chance. Women don't play this game fair, and never have. Until they do, guys like Sodini get wiped out until they snap. I see him more as an extreme activist than mentally ill. He was highly functional, and had a specific purpose to show the world that women don't want decent men. His mission was accomplished. His real message is simple: STOP PROMISING TRUE LOVE TO MEN. Women do this all the time. Let men give up on women, let them isolate, let them withdraw money and favors, stop being their friends, and let them be the losers you don't want to sleep with. Don't string them along for entertainment while denying them the only thing they are talking to you in the hope of getting.

"I see a new industry opening up, books and classes for young women to teach them how to spot the psychotic men who reads books to get sex."

Was Steve McNair's girlfriend proof that women are psychos that men need to avoid? Didn't see much in the media about that one. Shot four times on his own couch by a woman he'd given a 60k car to. What do you call THAT? Is it a symptom of problems with women?

Until women can stop the insults, and have a proper discussion about this, with the RIGHT men, nothing will change. They just want to yell, cheer on Oprah, bash men, and change nothing. This is the result of that.

I wrote "Why Hotties Choose Losers" in 2005, but women are social-climbers, and needed the media to endorse it, which it never did. Did you know many men begin hating women MORE after they find out what gets them laid? They love the sex, but hate what they have to do to get it.

The moral-hazard issue won't go away until women confront it. So far, they refuse to. And yes, there are thousands of men like Sodini in the community. If women want to stop them, get the government to prosecute all the false-[advertising that creates the hopes that lead to the shootings when dashed.

Ray,

I will sum up your viewpoint as being **extremely** misogynist and controlling.

You can't accept that women should be different than men. You can't accept that women should be allowed to have personal preferences. You can't accept that these preferences are complex and perhaps incomprehensible to you. You can't accept that women should be able to reject men as romantic partners for whatever reasons they wish.

You have an incredibly deep hatred of women, and you obviously can't rectify your hatred with your sexual urges.

I think you are just as ill as Sodini, perhaps even more so. PLEASE SEEK HELP. If you are having thoughts of killing, PLEASE point the gun at your own head instead of at others.

To Anonymous:

I recently had my heart SMASHED by the realization I would not get the \sexiest woman alive (by my standards). She's out of my league, and I can't have her. Does that mean I was wrong to want her? Of course not. Does it mean I wouldn't treat her well? Of course not.

She just got married to a guy I am 99.9 percent sure she will divorce, for reasons I will hold until they actually divorce (if they do). If they do divorce, I will blog every day about how she would rather be treated like crap by him than like a queen by me. But only if I am proven right. If she stays married, I say nothing. Simpel enough?

Even if I do wind up blogging, my life goes on anyway, but what about other women? I'm SETTLING for any of them. Does a woman like knowing she's my #2 choice? I doubt it.

If all I really care about is sex (I can find friendship with other women), why should I worry about soulmates or love? Makes no sense, especially if the ones I want don't want me. I certainly don't want to turn into this guy, but I can see where other men would. If I express msyelf in writing, I am NOT like him, because I'm not shooting anyone, but is that good enough to stop the criticism? No. Even if what I do is perfectly legal.

What bothers me about the one I really wanted recently wasn't not having her. It's that she never gave one crap about the fact that I did, or why. I get that, but don't tell me it's about love, when it's obvious\ly about age and socioeconomics.

As my book says, LOVE CONQUERS NOTHING. My decision to pursue random women for "meaningless" sex was made by the few women I could have had "meaningful" feelings for. If those feelings counted, I would have been attractive to those women just by virtue of having those feelings. Obviously, they meant nothing.

When people start saying things like "you're just bitter because you can't have someone" that misses the point. *I* get to choose who I like, but in this world, I am rewarded for choosing the women who like me, so I do that, while the ones I like marry wrong, then act surprised when they realize they were nothing more than a free hooker for their "true loves."

A smart woman who is loved by a smart man would be very wise to ask why he loves her.
If you call all unrequited love mental illness, then you are telling the men their feelings mean nothing. That is why men see women as sex objects, not anything of which you speak.

Wow, "Anonymous" calls me a misogynist. for what? Even likens me to a mass murderer. And she wonders why men think women don't play fair.

Notice she does so anonymously, in violation of felony feder\al laws, but I guess she thinks women are above it.

then again, once I file suit against her for defaming me, the blog can give up her IP address, and she can stand in an open court to explain why she thinks the way she does.

To Anonymous,

Get a lawyer. You have crossed several legal lines with your attempted cyberbullying of me.

I'm going to draft and file a Jane Doe complaint against you and seek a court order stopping you from doing this to me again.

I have no thoughts of killing anyone, and to claim I do is libel. So is imputation of mental illness, as well as anonymous cyberstalking. Did you know what you do is CYBERSTALKING? Anonymous harassment, specifically. WOMEN got these laws passed, but they also apply to women.

Don't blame me because you can't handle the truth about your own gender. I won't be intimidated by you, and you lack a lot of couerage to ambush people like that anonymously.

Just get an attorney. I want to know who is violating my rights, and have the means to find out.

Your "settling" remark is a perfect example of your mental illness.

You think a woman who is not the stereotypical young hottie is necessarily less desirable than the hottie. Further, you've deluded yourself into believing that ALL men think as you do. But it's just not true. Just as women have their personal preferences, so do men. And just because you don't understand them doesn't mean that they are flawed, it simply means that you are different than they are.

Unfortunately your hatred of women and your overly-controlling nature prevent you from comprehending the situation. You are the LAST person who should be doling out advice.

Does it make you feel more manly to threaten me? Is this part of your advice to other men? If you don't get your way or if a woman upsets you, then be sure to threaten her?

Anonymous,

You started with me, and you are violating my rights. The purpose of threatneing a lawsuit is to mitigate the problem, like by getting you to delete your comments or be prepared to stand behind them in a court of law.

Look at the names you called me. Beyond reason, and false.

As for my advice, many men have used it very effectively (note she hasn't even read my books), so the market says I should be doing this.

How one FEELS about women is irrelevant to knowing what gets them into bed, and that's what men pay me to teach them. If that doesn't meet with YOUR approval, too damn bad. Namecalling won't stop me, but lying about me will get me to file lawsuits to clear my name.

And yes, unattractive women are less desirable than attractive ones. Women dish out the LOSER label often enough that they should have no difficulty with the reverse.

Now please deflete your actionable statemetns about me.

Deflete? I don't know what that means.

I'm doing some Google searching. Is your real name is Gordon Roy Parker? If so, you have quite a history on the 'net ....it looks like you've lost a couple of lawsuits, and it looks like you've made lawsuit threats and claims of "stalking" against other people who, like me, are merely participating in an open forum. At least one person has written that you (if you are Gordon Roy Parker) have harrassed his family. Very interesting.

I highly recommend that others search on "Gordon Roy Parker". The first result from Google is rather hilarious.

By the way, Ray Gordon, I am unable to delete (or deflete) my posts. So do what you need to do.

Wow, this find is particular interesting. Is this you, Ray Gordon?

http://www.ca3.uscourts.gov/opinarch/043688np.pdf

And is this you too?

http://www.kookpedia.net/index.php/Gordon_Roy_%22Ray_Gordon%22_Parker

OK, gotta go. Might check back later.

lol, ray gordon,

if you can keep thinking (relatively) relationally you need to stop trying to talk to animals and realize there's a deeper issue at hand..

(not meant to be offensive,..)

anyone else who can't be human enough to be non-judgemental..

your days are numbered,

judgement is at hand,

the world was deliberately planned to fall apart (be made backwards, the only 'scary' thing about all the 'social' issues is that people who consider themslves 'grown adults' don't realize the basics of human, heck ALL nature, females 'use' their looks to 'compensate' for their inability to get 'real' food and shelter, by 'making' the 'males' do it for them, in essence, 'love' and 's.x' are NEEDS to 'ensure' that men act like 'men' and do the job of protecting/feeding/etc women,

there's nothing complicated about it,

it's the psy-op media that deliberately dumbs you all down into obvlivion (rational thought equates 'men doing anything to get laid = s.x being a REAL power that can be 'measured' by the energy a guy puts into getting the 'attention' of a female..'

again,

it's INCREDIBLE grown adults bicker like children about a NEED that's well known in all 'rational' circles,

what you guys (anyone and everyone) does when 'blaming' a 'loser' type who finally 'snaps' as basically saying 'omg!!! this girl killed all these guys out in the forest !! then gorged on their food they were eating!!! (the guys wouldn't share their food with her.. lol, pretend s.x wasn't a need (for males), in like fantasy land..)

what a FOOD-VERT!!!

kill the girl!!! she's evil!!

how does that sound?

lol, pathetic children..

now,

back to the issue,

this 'diversion' tactic of 'males vs females', 'blacks vs whites'.. 'christians vs muslims' etc etc (the 'vs' can be made infinite ..)

all leads you to bicker amongst yourselves while the true controllers of the world set up the final armaggedon scenario,

i could sit and talk about this forever,

again everything is common sense,

the elite long ago made their plans to 'chip' (literally, the brains of the masses..) the animals (people without common sense, just following the latest 'he's bad!! he's evil!!' propaganda campaign..

if you can't think for yourself,

you are nothing but a robot (to be used as a slave for the elite..)

look into this,

again, the media (fully controlled by your masters and rulers..) makes the 'point' of dumping this inane nonsense on you masses just for that reason,

cause if you get dumbed-down enough you actually 'get-off' bickering with each other ( notice how anyone with semi-rationality like ray gets 'attacked'.. lol.),

so instead of spreading love and understanding (yeah imagine that, the ONLY thing that actually 'prevents' sodini-circumstances.. i know it's tough for all the brain-washed to understand.. ) you guys..and 'gals'..

are at each others throats mindlessly wasting your energy..

to any moron who can't even think common sense, use their brain and/or whatever (to realize sodini did all he could there's something wrong with society..)

then just look up the 'georgia guidestones'..

note the part 'to bring humanity down to 500 000 000... '

'bring humanity to an age of reason, where truth, love, passion' etc guide people..

wake up goy,

if you act like animals,

you'll be treated as such

(again, to 'settle' this nonsense, simply substitute males for females, and 'food' for 's.x'.. (even love and attention..))

like a miracle, you get the exact same end 'results'..

(but the girls look 'evil'.. )

(if you consider depriving them of 'food' as normal behaviour.. )

if a person can't realize *every* 'bad' situation was created as an opportunity to *learn* from it (to prevent it next time) and make it 'better',

then you are sub-human and deserve to be treated as such..

Wow, "Anonymous" reall does want a lawsuit. Oh well.

Notice how "she" treats GOOGLE as a reliable source of info, when even BRITAIN ruled they couldn't be sued over lies which appeared there. The people who repeat those lies, however, can, so the courts rae even saying to sue HER, not GOogle.

Rather than say anything long about the lies about me, I'll just say here that what appears in Google about my late mother being a prostitute is false, as is the posting someone impersonated her with to a sex newsgroup.

The funny thing? Most of the lies were put there by white supremacists, who were paid by....the very gurus she complains about. Those gurus laugh at women like her, and how easily she is manipulated. When SHE gets sued for carrying out THEIR agenda, they're going to laugh a whole lot more.

Do what I have to by filing? Way ahead of you, dear. There's no other way to stop your stupidity, since any idiot can use a search engine, though it takes a special idiot to actually risk a lawsuit over something they read from someone they never met.

By the way, you committed another FELONY by harassing me anonymously, as your goal seems to be to get people to harass me. Did you know you are doing the work of the very gurus you claim to hate? That they put the lies there in the hope someone stupid like yourself would find them and republish them?

Hope the Voice likes the boycotts that will follow very soon.

By the way, the liars you quote also threatened my mom when she was dying. You're in some fine criminal company now.

Don't worry about giving up your name, that's what subpoeans are for. Look forward to seeing just who thinks they can lie about me like that, anonymously no less (how brave).

NOTICE,

I am preparing private criminal complaints against a certain cyberstalker who has followed me here. Please DO NOT join in this person's campaign against me, as their goal is to get you to fight their battles for them, and take the risks.

The "seduction community" started doing this ten years ago when I would not "join" its little CARTEL, and has been hiring "loose cannon" types (mostly poor people on the dole), and paying them to defame and harass me, knowing that if I sue the authors, it will not trace back to the source.

She is quoting directly from material that originally appeared on white-supremacist websites, and anyone who quotes them will, in turn, be said by me to be "linked to White Supremacists," as anyone doing proper "research" would know the source of the material about me they quote.

I should add that many of these "hate websites" have virii and spyware on it to keep tabs on those who go snooping, so you're also putting your computer at risk.

That the "gurus" behave this way is bad enough, but the women are proving just how DUMB they are by making an indirect alliaunce with these men they supposedly hate so much. What you are seeing is the side of women that explains why guys like George Sodini snap. I can deal with this garbage in court, and will, but guys like him are too confused and lash out.

I wonder if "Anonymous" realizes that two key federal laws were recently passed to stop anonymous cowards from engaging in this type of cyberbullying.

It seems that women are the criminal ones as or more often than men. She broke the law against me, several times, even though I never did a thing like what George Sodini did. Maybe one day the cops will start locking up women like her, so they'll stop resorting to trying to get others to harm people on their behalf, her obvious goal.

Ray Gordon
http://www.toosmarttofail.com

NOTICE,

I am preparing private criminal complaints against a certain cyberstalker who has followed me here. Please DO NOT join in this person's campaign against me, as their goal is to get you to fight their battles for them, and take the risks.

The "seduction community" started doing this ten years ago when I would not "join" its little CARTEL, and has been hiring "loose cannon" types (mostly poor people on the dole), and paying them to defame and harass me, knowing that if I sue the authors, it will not trace back to the source.

She is quoting directly from material that originally appeared on white-supremacist websites, and anyone who quotes them will, in turn, be said by me to be "linked to White Supremacists," as anyone doing proper "research" would know the source of the material about me they quote.

I should add that many of these "hate websites" have virii and spyware on it to keep tabs on those who go snooping, so you're also putting your computer at risk.

That the "gurus" behave this way is bad enough, but the women are proving just how DUMB they are by making an indirect alliaunce with these men they supposedly ha

Another cute example of gender bias:

1. Woman badmouths man: men attack the MAN, because it "must be true," even if unverified.

2. Man badmouths woman: he's "harassing" her, even if true.

We have a website called dontdatehimgirl.com. Women "warn" other women about men they think shouldn't be dating. Is there a comparable site to warn men about women? If there were,k it would be harassment.

More gender bias: dominance and submission. A "Master" must provide for his pets, but a male "pet" should pay TRIBUTE to his mistress. Either way, the guy pays?

Financial domination: men sign "slave contracts" to give their money to "financial dominatrixes" who rule their lives. A MALE dom tried to get a female to sign a similar "slave contract" and was IMPRISONED!

Women may not DO these things, but they sure don't fight to change the laws, or achieve equality. Men are expected to shut up, take the abuse, and are harassed and defamed (as I was above) if they have the nerve to speak out. Is it any wonder a less evolved male like Sodini acted out in the only manner he could?

This is NOT benign. What is being done to me here is clearly a federal *crime*, the very type of internet rage that the cops said was a red flag from Sodini. Publishing lies about people, along with their personal information, is not tolerated when men do it to women, yet when women (or men) do it to ME, people pretend it doesn't exist.

I'm not justifying what Sodini did, but I understand it perfectly. He felt he had no other way to get people to pay attention to the injustices he suffered. The problem is that by killing others, he lost his moral high ground. As I stay within the law, I don't give people that line of attack against me, so THEY wind up breaking the law instead.

Wow. This "Ray Gordon" poster DOES sound like a whack-job, doesn't he? Is that natures way of saying, "Don't Touch"? LOL

This isn't USENT, folks.

The Voice keeps all IP evidence in a neat little pile, you can't post anonymously (to them), and they have you sign a little TOS agreement that, if broken, triggers all kinds of computer fraud actions as well.

Just ask Lori Drew.

It's always the same: they're loud and brave until the court says their names have to go public. Then they scatter.

A side comment on 'Brother Bishop' hitting on Rebecca de Mornay. RdM is the daughter of talk show host Wally George. Ross Jeffries appeared on his show as the founder of the group "Conservatives for Satan".

Oh okay, if the Voice wants to leave my privacy invaded all weekend, then the privacy of ITS staffers is now fair game for me to dig up.

Tony Ortega is WAY too plugged into these people to be considered neutral. When people start collecting paychecks on the back of hate speech, it's time the paychecks started going to someone else.

Ortega missed some things about Michael Lee "Bishop" Emery back in 2000.

Like his threat to use "government connections" against me in 1999, which was in full view on USENET.

Is Ortega a "pickup artist" himself? Just how much did he know about the dangers of this community, and when did he know it?

Since Mr. Ortega has allowed an invasion of my privacy to stand, I'm going to construct a website about each staffer at the Voice, with any information I can find about any of them online.

Will also be scanning PACER for every lawsuit ever filed against this paper or anyone ever connected to it.

Want to play internet games? You're gonna lose, Ortega.

I also call for your ouster as editor because you have nothing in place for stopping hate speech over a weekend.

Perhaps NYC law has some anti-harassment provision that I can file over through its commission on human relations. Ortega is NOT some random journalist here, but well known to the group that has been harassing me like this online for a while.

I'm a woman, and this 'technique' sounds pretty transparent. It sounds like something from college and frat parties with metaphysical jargon and pickup routines. BTW I'm 40-something so I would not be a target as these guys are looking for women 20 years, or more, younger. However I do not even think most 20 something women I know would be fooled by 'look into my eyes!' 'Do you do martial arts, you look graceful and elegant!' LOL! It is a shame these seminars encourage men to stay immature and play these games How many of these men actually meet women who are not gold diggers. I have a feeling Sodini could have dated women his own age but didn't want to.

anonymous:
>>>This is all so sad and frightening I can hardly wrap my head around it! It appears that this industry is targeting mentally ill men and not only enabling their psychoses but providing methods for covering them up. I suspect that one reason why these mentally ill men tend to target very young women is because very young women are naive. Older women would be able to spot the psychoses much more easily, younger women aren't as good at it. This is only slightly less horrifying than rape.

I see a new industry opening up, books and classes for young women to teach them how to spot the psychotic men who reads books to get sex.

Perhaps so. But I do not think that many women would fall for this even young ones. I expect a guy to just talk and introduce themselves. Any kind of 'performance' like they describe is recognizable to me as a pickup line.

anonymous:
>>>This is all so sad and frightening I can hardly wrap my head around it! It appears that this industry is targeting mentally ill men and not only enabling their psychoses but providing methods for covering them up. I suspect that one reason why these mentally ill men tend to target very young women is because very young women are naive. Older women would be able to spot the psychoses much more easily, younger women aren't as good at it. This is only slightly less horrifying than rape...

Perhaps so. But I do not think that many women would fall for this even young ones. I expect a guy to just talk and introduce themselves. Any kind of 'performance' like they describe is recognizable to me as a pickup line. It is disturbing though, the site that this 'ray gordon' links to has not only books about picking up women but about mind control and hyponosis. These seem about evil and controlling others. Those who would be attracted to this are control freaks and men who have outrageous sense of entitlement.

R. Don Steele is a very unattractive representative of the male gender. Is his wife blind? Does she like mincing 10 paces behind her lord and master? Was she desperate enough to marry R. Don Steele in order to allay a sad and lonely future (for her, per Steele)?
Steele is the perfect "expert" for a guy like Sodini.
I'm over 35 and I assure you I am quite attracitve and I am not bitter or whatever delusion Steele may have. I have more respect for myself than to ever settle for a cretin like Steele or his disciple Sodini. Maybe Steele thinks if a woman won't date a loser said loser ought to blow her head off.

Eeeeew.

Just saw a pic.

Ick.

I saw a pic that was suposed to be the other guy. Gross.

>>Perhaps so. But I do not think that many women would fall for this even young ones. >>>

Try learning what THIS is before you trash it. My THIS in 1998 was stuff like the "pivot," where I told guys who were "just friends" with gorgeous women to go out with them AS FRIENDS, ignore the other women, and let the boost to their reputation take hold. Two years later, a "mate copying" study confirms what I wrote. That stuff definitely "works," as does a lot of behavior women says does not. After all, Sodini did what he was "supposed" to do. Notice that in EVERY other area of his life, he had it together: money, job, own home, etc. Women aren't going to tell men what works. Oh, and let's review what women say about their EX-boyfriends, when the truth REALLY comes out: "He ___________ for YEARS!" Give me a break. Obviously, as a woman (if you even are one), you're not going to admit to wanting to misinform men.

Men can try BOTH approaches: honest and dishonest, nice and "jerk." One exercise I give my readers is to be a "jerk" half the time, a "nice guy" the other half, and see which guy gets better results. Men can also see their results change when their income rises or falls, etc. Women can't hide this at all, and men are good at pattern recognition, something women don't develop beyond their emotions (9 percent of scientists are female for a reason).

The advice women give men tends to fail every step of the way. "Introduce yourself." Okay, a guy tries that. Then what? Sometimes women respond with SILENCE (a mental illness called selective mutism 323.09), acting like it's the guy's fault for being unworthy. Nice guys eventually just give up, start being jerks, stop giving a damn, and BOOM! They get laid. The moral hazard is created by women, not men. Men are just doing what works, just like the banks are taking what Washington will give them.

A woman who chooses men wrong is much easier to exploit than to educate, since most won't want to hear such "negativity," despite disasterous relationship outcomes.

>>I expect a guy to just talk and introduce themselves.>>>

And carry all burden of risk of rejection. Why should he do that? Why does a MARRIED man have his wife's friends THROWING themselves at him without his having to do ANYTHING? Answer: it's not what he does, it's who he is. If he's what she wants, she will pursue him. All guys have to do is hear women go on about guys they want who ignore them. As for rich, famous men, total exceptions are made to the rules, even the ones that have her not cheating.

>>>>Any kind of 'performance' like they describe is recognizable to me as a pickup line.>>>

Wow, another perfect judge of character. The whole point is that the guys who teach this stuff right also teach it to be undetectable. If I walk into a bar with a woman ten times prettier than you, and ignore you, how do you "stop" that? Crash my table and yell at my date?

That women even NOTICE who men can "get" (popularity check) says a lot about what lemmings they are.

Hypnosis is too cerebral for most women, who think all guys want are blowjobs or some bullshit roleplay. A talented female hypnotist can get ANY man from women who don't have the skill, much as with massage. Women who can't hypnotize who act like they are sexy are comical, actually. The ones who can NEVER complain about men. Many use it to steal men from other women, as well as men using it on women. Notice this is a MIND thing, not a looks thing.

Oh and take your pick: either the methods don't work, which means women aren't being used, or they DO work, in which case you're full of crap above.

>>>>These seem about evil and controlling others. >>>

Women try to control men all the time. Smart men don't buy into it. When I don't buy into it, they just harass me and repeat internet lies from websites that slip virii onto their computers. You'd think a hate-website might have someone wondering about the hater who publishes it or what they can do to one's computer, but hey women are dumb that way too.

>>>Those who would be attracted to this are control freaks and men who have outrageous sense of entitlement. >>>

High standards is not the same as entitlement. I don't apologize for making myself attractive enough to have sex with the sexiest women on earth, who, might I add, are not you.

The best thing a woman can do to "prevent" these problems is simple: GIVE AN HONEST MAN AN HONEST CHANCE.

They don't.

Ray Gordon
http://www.toosmarttofail.com

The Gramercy Park Hotel hired some of its regular staffers from modeling agencies.

Why aren't women protesting this objectification? Do they believe ugly people don't deserve WORK now too?

Silence is acceptance.

SOURCE: "Gramercy Park Hotel" film.

Hmm, since the Voice wants to leave up my personal shit (posted by others)

Plus I'm gonna scan every last classified ad in the paper, just to see what is sponsoring this rag.

ray gordon, your website and other links on the net show you are way weirder than R.D. Steele [the stories about gymnasts on UseNet, they are downright scary and could only come from a place of real evil]

"ray gordon, your website and other links on the net show you are way weirder than R.D. Steele the stories about gymnasts on UseNet, they are downright scary and could only come from a place of real evil"

Too bad an IMPOSTER wrote what I think you're referring to. Learn to check headers and get a clue. Ever hear the term USEFUL IDIOT?

USEFUL because they are easily manipulated. IDIOTS because they believe what they read online.

That story was written by a man who is now about thirty, actually a foot-fetisher/stalker who got backstage access at gymnastics meets, in return for impersonating me with that story. He also used to make death threats against my mother. Are you so STUPID that you think I'd write something that could land me in prison and sign my name to it? Get real. The guy who did write it eventually did get a visit from law enforcement.

Now, ask yourself how I'm supposed to "respect women" when they are so DUMB as to be misled by gossip and hatred over the internet from people they never even met? Be warned: if I do file lawsuits, your REAL NAME goes next to everything you write about me. Employers check that too; you want them finding out you like to defame people or lie about them? Google games work both ways, dear, and you're starting them.

See what happened was, in 1994, I met a famous gymnast online who confided in me that she was abused. I told the world, because I know abusers hate publicity, but also so that when she ultimately ran away, she would be believed, which she was, even as her dad accused her of lying, something that wasn't believed, because I had been telling the same story for three years, while the sport's insiders were covering it up. Like it or not, you are now helping child abusers, so good job. The imposter also has ties to white supremacists, to which your name will also be linked if sued. Ready for that to appear next to your name in search engines?

Did you read about the sexual harassment lawsuit at the Voice? They're allowing google games so I'll be playing them with them as well. Gotta defend my name with so many idiots out there like yourself.

Hope you and the others have a good lawyer, because one lawsuit names everyone who bought into this. That's in addition to the harassment complaints I'm going to be filing with various levels of law enforcement, since what you're doing is a felony (anonymous internet harssment 47 usc 223 a or something like that).

You're so blinded by your hatred of what I write you're risking lawsuits and/or prison time to bash someone online you never met, based on the words of someone else you never met.

I say you're the one in need of therapy a hell of a lot more than you think I might need it. Not only are you stupid, you're sick.

The abuse the women here are dishing out at me, even in violation of many laws, shows who the true villains are among the genders.

Women do this all the time, psychologically abusing men, without regard to consequences, legal or otherwise, and if the men protest,m they just escalate. Courts often enable this further through biased justice.

I really don't like having to sue people, but I've been backed into a corner by people whose hubris and intransigence are such that they leave me absolutely no other choice.

All they do is prove everything I say about how stupid women act towards men, and their behavior goes a long way towards explaining why weaker men like Sodini act out as they did.

I do not condone the shooting, but I saw it as inevitable, given the way women psychologically abuse men like that, just as I see a mugging as inevitable if someone walks through Central Park at 3am waving $10,000 in cash.

In an ideal world, you would be given a prison sentence equal to the crime you are falsely accusing me of. Perhaps that day will come. Men are getting fed up with this garbage, and it's why women can't find any good ones. It doesn't pay to be good. I learned that when I tried to stop one of the worst cccases of child abuse ever.

How DARE anyone lie about me that way. Anyone who does deserved to be bankrupted by a court of law, if not outright imprisoned. Just get a good lawyer, folks.

The Voice is owned by a large corporation that probably isn't going to want these alliances. I'm going to see who they might be open to firing or educating over this.

You see, if the cops had acted five years ago against the first round of criminals, the women in PA might still be alive, becaue the "community" would have been exposed for the criminal CULT it was.

Oh and these same women will not hesitate to break laws when it suits them. To them, the law is just another weapon, to be used as needed, and discarded when not.

To the Voice: Please place a LITIGATION HOLD on all posts in this blog. In the event they are destroyed, I will seek sanctions when I file suit. That's pursuant to Federal Rule 37.

Ray Gordon
http://www.toosmarttofail.com

After reading these posts, I think you are all a bunch of losers loons (Mike and Ross excluded). As for Ortega, I sincerely doubt that he's ever read Steele's books. Funny thing. Walk into any bookstore and mosey on over to the self-help section. You'll find all kinds of titles on how to "catch a man". My personal fav..."The Rules" all about how to manipulate men, supposedly to make them fall in love with you. Don't seem to see any articles blasting the female authors of those books.

Blaming Steele or other "seduction artists" for this lunatic's rampage is as ridiculous as blaming the Beatles for Charles Manson or ACDC for the Street Stalker. Get a life people.

"After reading these posts, I think you are all a bunch of losers loons (Mike and Ross excluded)."

Interesting "exclusion" for someone disclaiming any ties or ulterior motives, which would also mean they lack the knowledge of what's been going on here for TEN years in this CULT.

"As for Ortega, I sincerely doubt that he's ever read Steele's books."

Missed the part where Ortega anointed you his spokesperson.

"Funny thing. Walk into any bookstore and mosey on over to the self-help section. You'll find all kinds of titles on how to "catch a man". My personal fav..."The Rules" all about how to manipulate men, supposedly to make them fall in love with you. Don't seem to see any articles blasting the female authors of those books."

Actually there were many, especially those who questioned the wisdom of publishing "the rules." Must be nice expecting credibility while anonymous. How does anyone know you aren't just astroturfing?

"Blaming Steele or other "seduction artists" for this lunatic's rampage is as ridiculous as blaming the Beatles for Charles Manson or ACDC for the Street Stalker. Get a life people."

You'd think someone "with a life" wouldn't be so intense towards those they view as not having one. Hidden agenda? Hidden poster, that's for sure. Oh wait, Ross Jeffries is "excepted" from this. What's the basis of that exception again? The intense research from someone who claims to be an outsider, and is now lecturing INSIDERS on their own world?

I warned for YEARS that something like this was going to happen. I even said how: the CULT targets men with Asperger's, who can't spot con artists, who don't fit in socially, it gives them hope of getting beautiful women they want, popularity with other men (even bought), and that when the promise wasn't fulfilled, someone would snap. Every "guru" has twenty or more Sodinis in his midst. There WILL be copycats until law enforcment brings down the entire community, which it has the power to do rather easily, not for this murder, but for the many, MANY crimes the "gurus" commit, from false advertising, to using these "Sodinis" to attack rivals, and to defrauding the government by encouraging college kids to blow their financial-aid checks on bootcamps. Capone went to jail for tax evasion, not murder. The same thing is going to play out here, as the truth continues to surface. Then there's the white-supremacist link that also foretold this.

Those three women didn't have to die. They did because law enforcement was naive at best, and corrupt at worst. Wheels are already being set in motion by so many different forces that the "community" as we know it can consider itself finished.

These folks OPENLY committed crimes against me and many others, for years. They just thought no one would ever care. Now that these three women have died, everyone cares, and the world is watching. When the cops start digging through the paper trails, it really will be GAME OVER.

Reality will be sinking in over the next few months. Watch. I just hope they stop this in time to stop the inevitable copycats.

The unrelated crimes will be the downfall.

"I'm a woman,"

As if looks don't matter to men. "Woman" is enough. Amusing.

"And this 'technique' sounds pretty transparent."

How odd that women can claim to be able to tell if men are getting laid or not just by observing them. If female behavior was not predictable, this would not be possible. Does she even know which techniques the men talk about? Do men claim to be immune to being fooled by women? No. Do golddiggers ever fool men? Yes. "Game" was invented by golddiggers, btw. Men just apply it in reverse.

"It sounds like something from college and frat parties with metaphysical jargon and pickup routines. BTW I'm 40-something so I would not be a target as these guys are looking for women 20 years, or more, younger. However I do not even think most 20 something women I know would be fooled by 'look into my eyes!' 'Do you do martial arts, you look graceful and elegant!' LOL!"

That's not how the real stuff works. It's more like the guy acts cool, doesn't hit on her, makes a benign approach, then "demonstrates value" in an indirect manner in which he appears not to care about the outcome. All passive-aggressive stuff that women fall for all the time. Then there's the implied commitment, of course. Some women actually LIKE being hypnotized, btw. Oh, and if you don't like PUAs, it's odd you're on a blog like this instead of being with those dull "nice guys" you claim to value so much. Oh wait, women value HEIGHT and MONEY, don't they?

"It is a shame these seminars encourage men to stay immature and play these games How many of these men actually meet women who are not gold diggers."

Many, since most PUAs are broke.

"I have a feeling Sodini could have dated women his own age but didn't want to."

Why would he? He could have dated younger women if he had a better teacher. Information products are not all created equal.

Oh, and given how easily you were fooled by internet liars, you aren't a poster child for anything smart.

Men who emancipate from the psychological abuse women give them are not going to be too popular with women, obviously.

This conversation is hilarious! I hope it continues. Haven't had this much fun since one of the Rules authors divorced her husband.

Will I get sued for saying this?

I don't find preventable mass murder hilarious.

The key word here is PREVENTABLE.

So many small crimes were committed that set up the environment that caused this crime, and which will cause many copycat crimes, until the "community" is brought to justice.

Sodini was part of a CULT whose members are as much of a threat to our society as any terrorist could be, because they live respectable lives on the surface.

I'm doing an article now on another "Sodini" type who was used by another guru to commit crimes against me and others, who had similar expectations to Sodini's, and who began melting down after the promises were not met.

I'd lay 3000-1 Sodini had Asperger's, and the "gurus" throw gasoline on these powder kegs by teaching them "alpha" behavior, that they mimic literally, sinceAsperger's prevents them from processing information in the abstract, or properly.

Ray Gordon
http://www.toosmarttofail.com

I'd bet money Sodinin was Aspie, too.

But Sodinin being Aspie doesn't change your sounding like a weird mo-fo. A weird, scary mo-fo. A weird, scary, litigious mo-fo.

Yeah, your fear is understandable. Weak, stupid sheep tend to live in fear. That's why they don't confront evil.

The idea I can actually defnd my rights in court scares many cyberbullies, who are used to people who don't fight back.

I love the ones who say "BRING IT ON!" after they violate some law and someone threatens to sue them. A few have tried that with the RIAA, only to lose millions at trial, as if they thought the jury would give them a standing ovation.

Maybe one day you'll get the courage to be scared by people who commit the real crimes on this earth, or who falsely impute behavior like that on me.

Newspapers deserve to be going broke for allowing hate speech like this on their sites. Nothing better than seeing these snobs put out of work after being so arrogant.

There's so much clueless anger in these comments that they are difficult to read.

No one is winning here.

Women's bodies are used to sell products in advertising because it works. As a side effect, men begin to think that women in real life (human beings who, by the way, are NOT getting paid to feign interest and/or orgasms)nshould automatically want to have sex with them, just because. Meanwhile 32,000 women are getting breast augmentations every month in this country--presumably for male attention, never mind "doing it for themselves."

Men, women, transgenders...everyone is lonely, everyone would like someone to spend time with. Why do we have to demonize each other? Anecdotal experience is not enough to condemn the half of the human species that you don't happen to belong to.

Jesus.

Thirty percent of female homocide victims are killed by former or current romantic partners--or stalkers. Yet you don't see women arming themselves and taking out men in public places.

This is sick. Rather than argue about which manipulative "pickup" method is better, why not worry about our sisters and daughters out there, who could be next? Why not get help for our brothers and sons before they get to this point?

"There's so much clueless anger in these comments that they are difficult to read."

Clueless can be a matter of comprehension as much as presentation. I write for an intellectually elite audience, but the monkey-screaming drowns out my message to the masses. Those who don't run on emotion hear me loud and clear.

"No one is winning here."

Actually, the seduction gurus like Steele and the rest of them win. They make money teaching guys like this, who pay like 3k for a weekend seminar. 83 percent of women would fuck a guy for 1k. Women created this market by not playing fair with decent men. Ever see FALLING DOWN? Any good man can be ruined if abused badly enough. Oh and let's not start with the BURNING BED....

"Women's bodies are used to sell products in advertising because it works."

Obviously women don't have a problem with it "working" if the price is right. The men who make it "work" make life difficult for decent men who don't make it "work." In fact, if it didn't "work" women would have to do physical labor like men. Most pretty women are for sale, as any man who can afford them can attest. Women can put a stop to that anytime by turning down the money.

"As a side effect, men begin to think that women in real life (human beings who, by the way, are NOT getting paid to feign interest and/or orgasms)nshould automatically want to have sex with them, just because. Meanwhile 32,000 women are getting breast augmentations every month in this country--presumably for male attention, never mind "doing it for themselves.""

Again, women are creating the moral hazard. They WANT to be objectified, rather than earn their way through life. Women who aren't hot enough cry over the fact that they can't. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the women.

It was a WOMAN who accused me here of a heinous crime. I don't see any outcry. Say I published YOUR real name and said you raped a 12 year-old girl. What do you think they'd do to me for writing that? The woman did the same thing to me and was ignored. Those in the grips of such sickness can't relate to it.

The worst part? The lies were put there by the very CULT that you supposedly hate. Yet you act on it, and do their dirtywork. You're their best friend!

Now, what happens when the COPYCATS start up? There's around 15,000 guys just like this one waiting to snap when the promises of these bootcamps and gurus isn't fulfilled. I know this because one of them threatened me for so long I watched him melt down as he realized he wasn't getting laid. The GURUS are the ones creating this expectation. Oh, and what about the T-Babes who called him a "badass." Those were HIRED GUNS, women who betrayed their own gender's interests for cash. You sound like Gotti blaming the feds because Sammy The Bull snitched.

The "community" has a CHARLES MANSON figure who pulls the strings of guys like this. The government has known about this for FIVE years, and done nothing, because sex-addicted men in government want insider access to the gurus. Male sexual addiction and female exploitation of that addiction. The gurus are just doing the same thing with knowledge. Are you JEALOUS of the women they want, or that they spend money on guys like Steele, or ME? Too bad.

Like all women, you realize you're losing an argument and want to make peace and play nice. Try doing that BEFORE the guys figure out how to overcome it. BEFORE they become "jerks." Women don't do that. Every PUA knows when he starts getting laid the women who used to reject him come out of the woodwork. Why? GAMES.

If you don't play games, that only matters if you're hot. Ugly women are nice out of desperation, and men can see right through it.

"Men, women, transgenders...everyone is lonely, everyone would like someone to spend time with. Why do we have to demonize each other? Anecdotal experience is not enough to condemn the half of the human species that you don't happen to belong to."

How about FACTS, like being falsely accused of authoring a sick child-molestation fantasy written by an imposter who is walking around with a good reputation because no one bothered to out him? HE is the threat.

I'm trying to warn people of a cult that is producing these men, that there are others just like him ready to snap, and no one gives a damn, but boy they can sure quote what they read on the internet about me, even if it's put there by the men who are pulling the strings of these killers.

I call that STUPID. what do you call it?

"Jesus."

If I am, you'll rot in hell for all eternity.

Ray Gordon
http://www.toosmarttofail.com

i use techniques on women and it works... its really fun to me and im fine morally because women minipulate in everything they do all the female posts here are from women that wear makeup and high heels lol if you dont your probably settled. i agree with gordan and what he says but i wouldnt waste my time explaining it... women deny the way they are and luckily most men and women are generally not smart enough to understand BIOLOGY or NLP. women will always use men as social economic latters and men will always have sex with as many young attractive women as they can. THIS IS EVOLUTION AT WORK. so women if your sensitive about getting Psychology used on you wipe that crap off your face and throw away your push up bra.

Ray Gordon = Heart attack waiting to happen

Article page 1 - last line:

"We said it wasn't below us." Tee hee! Blow us. I LOVE it!

Seems Mr. Ortegalacks the BALLS to sign his own name to something he's leaving up on his blog.

If he'ssuch a REAL MAN (thanks for calling my home btw Maricon and leaving digital proof you know about the blog), maybe the little twerp can say ON VIDEO what he only seems to have the courage to say on the phone.

The thing about video is, it cqan't be deleted or disclaimed. Then again, maybe he's jsut a WUSS, like the CYBERBULLIES here.

In my rebuttal article, I can point to things his "buddy" Ross Jeffries was doing in public in 2000, which any competent journalist would have known about. Since Mr. Maricon is so "competent," I'll assume he just ignored it.

Thi9ngs like M\ike Osgood or Mr. B ring a bell? Michael Lee "Bishop" Emery?

To the posters here, it looks like I'm going to have to sue some of you, since your paper here has elected to leave the blog intact. I literally have no other choice now.

Snice you guys were led to do what you do by one Gary Burnore, you might want to do some more research.

In addition to lawsuits, there are several criminal statutes being violat4ed, so yeah law enforcement will be getting some complaints etc.

What a fucking MARICON.

Wow, didn't realize certain people were so cozy with WHITER SUPREMACISTS.

Some of the crap repeated about me here orginally appeared on a website hosted by the ORDER OF WHITE KNIGHTS, one of the nation's white supremacist groups.

I didn't realize they were "legitimate news sources" now. very intriguing.

This is final comment on the criminal harassment in the post about me from earlier.

Its purpose seems to be to incite others to act out against me. It is therefore being treated as reckless endangerment of my safety, which is a criminal offense. That's in addition to the various anti-hate-speech laws passed recently, and the anonymous-harqassment law 47 usc 223(h)(1).

That a supposedly "respectable" publication like the Voice could be hoodwinked by a bunch of internet freaks suggests that the "dinosaur" media has lost its relevance. You'd think any COMPETENT journalists would know better, but they don['t.

Perhaps the advertisers will wake up soon and see that today's vehicles for their words are not the same as the ones from yeterday.

It's sad that those who claim to hate what Sodini did are unwittingly enabling the CULT that spawned him. All this will serve to do is make it easier for it to happen again when copycats join the cult, in part because those who would have dissented against it were lied about in an attempt to discredit them.

Sure takes a lot of courage to hide behind a desk and let others do the writing. Any editor worth his paycheck wouldn't be such a coward. If he wants to stand beyhind this vitrol, let him have the balls to do it on video, so he can be held accountable.

"I really don't like having to sue people, but I've been backed into a corner by people whose hubris and intransigence are such that they leave me absolutely no other choice."

That sounds so sad. Sad and impotent.
Forced by others to do what they don't want to do.

No choice really. Others make them.

Their life is beyond their control.

Sounds like it to me anyhow.

Hey Ray Gordon....aren't you the same guy trying to sell seduction books on usenet groups?

Are you trying to use this tragedy to promote your seduction products?

From: RayGordon
Subject: The $50,000.00 "advantage copy" of my book explained
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009

"As I say on my website, my next book, "Love Conquers Nothing," is on
sale for $50,000.00 for the first copy. The purchaser will get the
ONLY copy of the book for one year, after which the price will drop to
$24.95 (tentatively), and be made available to the masses. The
"advantage" customer is therefore paying $50,000.00 not for the book,
but for a one-year HEAD START on the competition."

There's one thing to remember about any self improvement or relationship advice, be it Oprah or doc. Phil or Steel or Jeffries.

For 99% of people who seek some book or tape or seminar to overcome fears or anxiety, the fear and the anxiety is their roadblock. If they can get past it, they do well.

Some few however find that the fear wasn't their problem. Instead they have much bigger issues behind the fear.

Most people who fear rejection, do so because of embarrassment. They fear being humiliated. But for a few, being afraid of rejection is a symptom of much deeper psychological problems. For those people it is not just embarrassment or feeling unattractive, they see rejection as an attack on them. A threat. These types of people see threats and attacks in seemingly innocuous things.

They lash out, suffer from grandiose delusions and paranoia. For these people it is only a matter of time and something will set them off. Be it an Ozzy Ozborne song or delusion of their dog talking to them or some political screed... and they snap like this guy did.

Women use makeup and push-up bras to get men and men use other tactics to get women. Both genders use fake, superficial techniques to find a mate or nourish their self-esteem by being desirable, no?

I can't understand why a loser with apparent [VERY] low self-esteem issues would make other men trying to get women by taking classes (I admit this is kind of a stretch even for me!) look bad.

Afterall, if all Xs are Ys, it doesn't mean that all Ys are Xs, no? Logic 101 and all that...

But Seb, push-up bras and makeup work. Why? Because men LIKE those things, and many even EXPECT them. This is why women do it.

It's not just that Sodini took a class to try to get a woman that makes him a loser. It's that he was a 48-year old average looking computer dweeb OBSESSED with the idea of having sex with very young very pretty women, and yet at the same time he was very hateful toward them. He read books and attended at least one workshop led by a man who had the the very same obsession/hate combo. Clearly Sodini has some kind of mental illness and it seems that the books and workshop only validated it.

Have you seen the Steele videos? I highly recommend them. Do a Google video search on "George Sodini workshop". Watch them in their entirety. They made my jaw drop.

Agreed on the point.

My angle was more "results" oriented.

Men reading up on what other men do to get girls is okay in my book, because women want certains things in a man to be attracted to them. Why not paying someone with verifiable success to teach him a thing or 2?

However, just like some bras and some makeup, some of these courses can be ridiculous or downright scary though, that I can agree on.

Greetings. When Jeffries first came out with his website -- about 12 years ago now -- I pre-interviewed him for a possible slot on a morning radio show I was producing in a major market in the U.S. Woah. The guy creeped me out with his "hypnosis." I'm a gal and admittedly a tough nut to crack. But any woman who has a good sense of self and some intelligence will see right through this chicanery; either that, or find herself compulsively taking a shower immediately after talking to this type of greasy guy or his devotees. Jeffries' M.O. Speed Seduction is...Evil. Worse yet: it can result in CHILDREN...who never asked to be born. It's creepy...very creepy, indeed.

"Jeffries' M.O. Speed Seduction is...Evil."

If it doesn't work, how evil can it be?

"Worse yet: it can result in CHILDREN...who never asked to be born. "

If it doesn't work, how can it result in children?

"But Seb, push-up bras and makeup work. Why? Because men LIKE those things, and many even EXPECT them. This is why women do it."

So you're saying it is OK for women to lie about their looks, to attract a man, because it works and men expect women to be liars?

Face it, there's a huge double standard when it comes to honesty in the dating world.

If men are attracted to big breasts, so a woman pretends to have big breasts... how is that different from a man pretending to have a bigger salary than he really does, because women are attracted to successful men?

If a woman lies it is expected, but if a man lies it is evil?

Seb, if by "to get girls" you mean that the men are attempting to make themselves more appealing to women in a genuine way, I'm all for it.

But if men are being taught to lie to and manipulate women, and these same men are encouraged to hate the very women they've chosen to be their victims ...... this can't be good.

I'm not aware of any books or workshops for women that teach/encourage this same type of disturbing deceptive behavior.

Do you have a daughter? Think about your daughter being the unfortunate target of one of these men who despises women and will resort to any sort of deceptive and manipulative behavior in order to sleep with her.

To Anonymous Wednesday, Aug. 12 2009 @ 1:38AM:

When you approach a large breasted woman, if you can't really tell whether or not her breasts are real and it's that important to you that they are, then just ASK. If she tells you they're real and later on you find out they're not, then I guess you have a right to complain.

This is equivalent to a guy telling a girl that he has a particular career or makes a particular salary when in fact he doesn't.

But let's say a guy who doesn't have a job and lives in his parents' basement goes to a club in a nice suit and he APPEARS to be successful. Is this lying? Of course not. If people make assumptions based on appearance alone, they need to be prepared to be jolted by reality. Caveat emptor!

To Anon @ 4:34PM :

I see your point and agree partly with it.

These types of books are tools for men to be used to attract the opposite sex, just like pampering up is a tool for women to be attractive to men.

These are ALL lies. These are ALL masks that we put on when we meet people. Nobody wants to show themselves completely in social gatherings. Only the good; never the bad.

In that sense, I don't think reading up on such stuff is a bad thing.

A tool can be used for good or for bad. That choice is up to the individual. I just don't think that it's the tool's fault that's all.

Some of these men use these "techniques" to sleep with as much women as possible in a pathetic attempt to keep their low self-esteem at bay. From what I glanced from a couple of these gurus, most were rejects when they were young and you don't need to be a psychologist to figure out why they act that way years later.

Same thing for women. Makeup and clothing used in certains ways creates in the eyes of men what is not real at all. Some women use these lies to attract men and have bad intentions just like the men mentioned above.

From the critics I see in the posts here, I see women that are insulted that some men pay money to get skills to get them into bed, but they don't see that women do the exact same thing, BOTH with either good or bad intentions behind these ventures...

No I do not have a daughter, but should I ever have one, I will tell her: "It's easy for a girl to sleep with a man; it's harder to keep him". Of course she will probably sleep with these kinds of men that lie to her just to get in bed. She'll learn from these mistakes and come out of it stronger. I would not want to instill in her the Cinderella Complex that so many women seem to have (Cinderella Complex is when parents overprotect their daughters to the point that they end up not being able to cope with life's obstacle, never being exposed to them when they were young)

anyways, enough rambling for me ;o)

Seb, I really don't think dressing or grooming to attract the opposite sex is deceptive. I think we can all tell when a women has makeup or a push-up bra on or that she's been spray tanned, we can all tell when guy has gel in his hair or he's grown facial hair to cover up some "flaw".

I think it would only be deceptive if the only time people dress or groom themselves in a particular way is when they are trying to get a partner, and then they slack off once the relationship or marriage has begun. If it's how they dress and groom themselves all of the time, whether they are single or in a relationship, then it's just an expression of personal style and personality, nothing more.

You have to admit, there are plenty of guys who prefer girls who look fake as h*ll. And there are plenty of girls who like guys who look fake as h*ll too. I am not a fan of hair removal on men (too feminine) or spray tans on anyone (too orange), but to each his/her own. There's someone for everyone. Or almost everyone.....I think Sodini's personality was so creepy that no matter what he looked like he couldn't have gotten a girl.

The Cinderella Complex bothers me too. It's SO important for a young girl to learn early on that her true worth comes from her self and her own achievements, not from men. Sadly, there are far too many women who never learned this, so they are constantly seeking approval from men and are constantly dependent on men to bolster their self-esteem. I've know women who would rather date someone they don't like than be without a boyfriend! I've also known women who constantly "put out" and get little or nothing in return because they are so lacking self-confidence. Believe it or not, I knew one gorgeous woman (not kidding about this, she was a head turner) in her early 30's who was never without a boyfriend and had plenty of sex... but admitted one day that she'd never had a single orgasm in her entire life. She continually put out but never got anything in return. Why are women doing this???

Now I'm rambling. :)

At least you two are "rambling" coherently, speaking nicely to one another, and not accusing the other of malicious intent.

Matter of fact, I rather like both of you.

Keep up the good work, kids. (And a Bonus! It looks like you may have chased away some of the less rational of the rabble.)

Kudos all 'round!

I see your point regarding the grooming of the ladies. However, wouldn't you agree that a man engaging a woman he never met is as obvious as a girl prettying herself up to be approached? In my opinion it's 2 sides of the same coin for these kinds of actions. It's a lie in the sense that both usually ignore the horny elephant in the room... ;o)

For the letting go issue, I think it's quite normal to stop (or at least lower) the grooming phase as a relationship flourishes. Grooming or any other attractiveness techniques are there to catch a mate, it is an abvious mask, but a mask nonetheless. I would not wish (nor want in a partner!) to have to put that much effort to be appreciated by my lover. At some point the animalistic rituals of love must be replaced by the rational love only humans are capable of. Call me crazy but I find my gf the hottest when we go out with the kids at the videostore on a slow night and she has her hair in a pony-tail under a baseball cap and some jogging pants. She might not be sexually attractive to other men looking to hookup, but to me she's hot as hell, even when not even trying to look pretty! It reminds me why I fell for her in the first place. hope this makes sense...

Regarding people of both sexes looking fake as hell, if you want I'll be the driver of the bandwagon agreeing with you. I wbounced bars for 6 years and you won't find someone agreeing with you as much as I am ;o).
It's the hypersexualization of kids going on right now imo. Men removing hair, women obsessed with not aging; it's all an obsession with being young that, for me, encroaches on a collective pederastry. It's pathetic. Men who like their women fake as hell are obviously the same ones who use "pickup" techniques for acquiring new notches on their belts (for bad reasons). They are so intimidated by women that they will draw satisfaction in the number of women they are able to sleep with. Either that or they are not in touch with their human side; only the animal side.

These guys, these "alpha males", are like any other 'alphas' in the animal kingdom. They spend the majority of their lives pissing on trees to mark their territory, being afraid and paranoid of the competition, thumping their chests to prove to others how better they are and hunting for all the females to impregnate. Talk about an effin' waste of time given our miraculous gift of self-conscience!

I saw a study about parenting little girls that showed that when a little girl gets hurt, parents act WAY faster than with littles boys in consoling her. Just a little thing like that creates a dependency on somebody bigger and stronger for comfort. See how early this bad sociolization starts? I think this paternalistic mind set still going on is as worse as patriarchy of the olden days for girls. Even this feeling of entitlement by some women on being treated special (like opening a door for her!) is related to all this poor self-esteem women are subjected to since their births. It makes me grind my teeth when I hear girls wanting such things...

I do not have girls, only 2 boys. I want at least a girl before I cut the fertility plug (well.. ok I'll call it quits after 4!). But if I have a baby girl, I'll treat her just like my boys for these kinds of things. When my kids fall face first on the floor, they look up to you before deciding to cry, they'll queue in on your reaction. If you look scared for them, they'll cry, if you laugh and say some assinine comment that kids love, they'll mostly laugh with you. :)

I have a guy friend who read some of these books. He changed dramatically. Was not popular in school so the overcompensation happened. Slept with close to a hundred girls. Fortunately for him, he woke up one day and saw the emptiness of it all and now he wants a relationship. There was this girl who was really into him but he wasn't interrested. He couldn't put his finger on why. He figured it out years later when he found out the girl had so much low self-esteem that she kept involving herself with men who treated her like crap and dumped after a while. Last news was that her bf was in jail for driving without a permit numerous times... driving HER car, but she kept allowing retarded acts like that.

Where you and I seem to disagree on thios issue is who the victim is I think. I believe that there are not. Fool me once, shame on you. I get fooled 30 times by 30 different men, shame on me, you know? ;o)

If the girl becomes the victim in these kinds of situations, then the paternalistic part mentionned above comes in imo.

Hmmmm...while I understand your position regarding a woman who is treated badly 30 times (or really, a man, too -- although I'd say that's rarer), I still have to say that the people doing the exploiting should be called bad and wrong.

Granted, if they didn't do it to her (or him), s/he may go look for someone else who would, but that doesn't exonerate the abuser/liar/cheater/manipulator.

Let's play it out:
If someone wanted to be treated very badly, and went looking for a partner to treat them badly *in the extreme*, the partner who KILLS THEM (that's as extreme as it can get, right?) is still a murderer.

Even if the victim agreed to it and sought it out actively, the police and society very rationally call it homicide and jail the perpetrator.

Just because someone lies down doesn't mean we should walk on them. At least that's the way I live my life. It would be nice to think we'd help 'em up, but at the very least we have to try to avoid stepping on them.

My two cents,

The crazy feminists and insecure women will always come up with an excuse to bash men who seek to improve themselves. What's the difference between reading a "seduction secrets" article in Cosmo and reading "Double Your Dating"? That's right, NONE. Just that the reader of the men's dating advice happens to have an appendage known as a PENIS attached to it. Misandrist stereotypes of men who read books and try to improve themselves persist, usually by women who like to project their own insecurities onto others, just like the misogynists they purport to hate.

Also what from this follows?

Looks like the ruling in the Google case makes this one a slam-dunk.

Hope everyone has their attorneys ready.

Funny how when a SUPERMODEL is "defamed" the courts suddenly throw on their cape. Now there's precedent for unmasking all the anonymous cowards.

The question is, will the editor's connection to the "community" be sufficient to sustain section 230 immunity?

Looks like the ruling in the Google case makes this one a slam-dunk.

Hope everyone has their attorneys ready.

Funny how when a SUPERMODEL is "defamed" the courts suddenly throw on their cape. Now there's precedent for unmasking all the anonymous cowards.

The question is, will the editor's connection to the "community" be sufficient to sustain section 230 immunity?

I am not familiar with this Ray Gordon person but I want to say that 100% of his information regarding women is correct.

I'm sorry, but it's true. This has been one of the greatest sorrows and (ironically) greatest boons of my life, to finally accept these truths. Once you learn how to treat women (very disrespectfully) they will punish you with lots of sex. Meanwhile the nice guy, the guy who loves and respects women will very rarely get laid. It does breed a certain amount of misogyny but that is not our fault.

Please keep telling the truth, Mr. Gordon.

Hey Ray Gordon, you contradicted yourself. You say that Steele and his ilk create people like Sodini (and bully and compete unfairly with other advice-peddlers such as yourself) because they make false promises and set expectations too high(i.e., buy my products for lots of $$$ and you WILL get that object of your desire!).

But then another poster here said:
"I have a feeling Sodini could have dated women his own age but didn't want to."

To which you responded:
"Why would he? He could have dated younger women if he had a better teacher. Information products are not all created equal."

So... if he had YOU as a teacher (or at least someone other than Steele), he could have gotten the young woman of his dreams? So which is it? Do you believe that it's wrong to all but guarantee that a customer would get a young hottie? Or do you just believe that Steele's advice was inferior?

Personally, I also think that Sodini could have dated older women, including women in their 30s, and women who were more generally in his "league." He just felt he was entitled to a young one. He wasn't in such a low-ranking league, by the way. We don't have a picture of what kind of woman he wanted (other than a young one), so we don't know where in the "high" range he was aiming. All we know is that it was too high. Nothing wrong with having high standards, but he (and everyone else) should have a realistic understanding of what's available to you in the dating pool. Otherwise, you're just deluding yourself.

I had this page bookmarked and came back to see what had been posted since I was last here.

Matt wrote: "The crazy feminists and insecure women will always come up with an excuse to bash men who seek to improve themselves."

This is exactly the kind of attitude that makes some men losers, an attitude driven by gross generalizations and stereotyping. All feminists are man haters. All women who hate men are insecure and/or feminists.

I'm a feminist, but I celebrate the differences between men and women and I embrace some of the classic gender roles. Feminism is refusing to be discounted due to being female. Feminism is not misandry. Fortunately, most men understand this.

Matt and those who think like him are doomed to lifetimes of unsatisfying contentious relationships with women, who they fundamentally hate but cannot live without.

Is this another gender? The female-hating hetero?

I can see that you are an expert at your field! I am launching a website soon, and your information will be very useful for me.. Thanks for all your help and wishing you all the success in your business.