David is out of touch. I find it hard to believe he would say anything like this as a young man trying to get a break. I wouldn't pay you $500 dollars to write a story for me let alone to read my stuff. Who the fuck do you think you are?

In defense of Mr Gerrold, 'who the fuck he is' happens to be one of the most gifted writers in the business, and has been for decades now.

That's why newbees want to shortcut years of toil, sweat and rejection by expecting professionals like him to volunteer their time and wisdom to anyone with opposable thumbs. Get thee to a Learning Annex, or better yet, get thee to Amazon and buy:

Trouble with Tribbles: The Birth Sale and Final Production of One Episode

http://www.amazon.com/Trouble-Tribbles-Birth-Production-Episode/dp/B000UH13GI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1252694069&sr=8-2

Written by Mr Gerrod in 1973, it is still available and still an inspiring read for anyone wishing to write for TV. I have been making a living as a TV and film writer since 1980, and no small part of my success can be traced back to this book. And no, I never asked him to read any of my work.

@The People:

The point is, don't ask David to read your stuff. Ask a screenwriting teacher in a class you're taking to read your stuff. Ask the people in your critique group to read your stuff. Ask people whose business it is to help you learn to read your stuff.

If professional screenwriters only got read requests from people whose work was ready to be read, we would probably not be having this conversation. Someone whose work was ready to be read would not a) approach someone with an idea for a franchise, an opportunity that is impossible for a newbie writer to have, b) show up with an outline or a synopsis without a full screenplay to back it up, and c) expect a stranger in Hollywood to essentially do her a favor, sight unseen.

Learn your craft, and then find your opportunities. Anything else is just being a clueless jerk.

@The People:

You got to the coveted pole position of user responses. I'd have been more impressed had you just typed "First!" and moved on. Instead you used your golden opportunity to demonstrate that 1) you don't know who David Gerrold is and don't really know who you are insulting, and 2) to demonstrate a deep and profound sense of entitlement.

David Gerrold's books have been a great inspiration to me. He is a great writer.

@ David Gerrold:

Thank you for this follow up and thanks for all the enjoyment I have had over the years reading your novels.

A person sending you an unsolicited manuscript is like a person who shows up at your doorstep asking for money, soon after it's announced you won the lottery. They hope to benefit from your good fortune without the work or circumstances involved in you getting there.

I would say a proper writer is going to get the work done, get an agent and have the thing shopped around. Its your agents job to make sure the unsolicited manuscript ends up in someone's hands.

p.s. @ThePeople -- there are better places to be a troll then here.

@The People:

It's obvious you have no idea who David Gerrold is and it unequivocally shows your ignorance.

To be clear, David Gerrold has no need of your piddly $500 (which I doubt you can even afford) because Tor Publishing, Baen and Paramount Pictures pay him much, much more than $500.

Mr. Gerrold has been writing professionally for a very long time with and writing very well. So well that Tor will be completely republishing his series that was originally written back in 1984. So, really, he doesn't need your help.

Finally, who the fuck he is? Well, he can talk the talk because he actually wrote a book on writing AND got paid for it:

http://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Wonder-Science-Fiction-Fantasy/dp/1582970076/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1252705031&sr=8-1

So really, it seems that you The People is the one who is completely out of touch.

He wrote the Trouble with Tribbles, not King Lear. Certainly, he deserves respect for being a success in the industry, but at the same time, there's no need to genuflect here.

Once upon a time, I paid for a seminar taught by a well known author who has had more than a little success as a screenwriter as well as a fiction author.

In the course of the seminar, he critiqued a scene written by each member, and mine was the capper. It felt at the time as if he'd deliberately and publicly eviscerated me and he ended by telling me to do *anything but attempt to write scripts for a living in particularly piquant and pointedly derisive diction.

And he was right, IMO. It hurt like a bastard, but he was right.

Please keep in mind I *paid* for that "abuse", which in hindsight was particularly *kind of that writer. It was worth every penny. Perhaps some day I'll come up with a work of fiction worth reading, and perhaps it will be based on reality, but it won't be and shouldn't be a script, not for stage nor any performance medium.

I have neither the ear nor the gumption to see what works before seeing someone else do it better than I might have. I'd waste the money of anyone attempting to produce it.

I admire the hell out of that writer. I have a few friends who write for publication or film, or both. I won't abuse their friendship for a freebie and I won't put them on the spot. They are singularly talented in ways I'm not. I'm talented in ways they're not. I can live with that.

"Ask the people in your critique group to read your stuff."

Sheila, who posted this above is right on. It is a huge imposition to expect somebody who isn't your friend, who you're only asking by virtue of their hard-earned success, to read your stuff.

Many of my L.A. friends and acquaintances who are novelists or otherwise successful writers were in a Silverlake writers group -- some I can recall at the moment are crime writer Denise Hamilton, Janet Fitch, and Samantha Dunn.

My neighbor goes every week to such a group. There, people read and comment on her work and she returns that for them. It's rude to expect somebody you don't know to do a favor for you, and I'm always shocked when people have that expectation.

I have a woman who reads and critiques my work -- I pay her by the hour and buy her lunch.

My friend Susan Shapiro, who's a terrific writing teacher in Manhattan (SusanShapiro.net - and check out her book she wrote with advice from her favorite writing gurus), advises using ghost editors to improve your work. These are people you pay - professionals you pay - and they're worth every cent. Sue will e-mail you names if you go on her site and ask her.

Finally, kudos to the guy above, A.F. Webb, who recognizes the value of honest criticism. In my neighbor's case (and I do read her work and she reads mine), I told her I'd tell her if I thought she couldn't make it as a novelist in the Y.A. market, which is the market she's trying to break into. It's just too cruel to give somebody false hope. You're a much better friend in telling them they suck ass.

an unscrupulous lawyer

There's some other kind?

yeah, being a writer is such a problem. FUCK OLSON AND YOU, TOO!

@P.B.

You're so articulate and witty (no, really, the "I'm bitter at the world because the world hasn't given me what my self-entitlement tells me I deserve" is so original)! Write on, write on...

You guys are idiots. The point is I would never ask David Gerrold to read my work, same goes for that Olson fuck. I understand how to get something made and that is why I don't suck these guys dicks when they tell me something I already know. So what if he wrote a star trek episode? So what if he wrote fucking star wars? Are you really calling him a transcendent writer? Do we really all have to agree about who is good, who's made it, who is cool, who is saying the right thing. Grow the fuck up you ass kissing clowns.
And please don't talk about whether or not I could afford the $500. It shows your lack of class. The bottom line is I am living in a multimillion dollar house that I own. Someone has to say the truth to Gerrold, and you ass kissing and ball suckers don't have the stomach for it. $500 is a ridiculous amount to throw out, especially considering guys like Larry David couldn't afford groceries before they were writing stuff like Seinfeld. This ass clown Gerrold and his dumb as a rock friendo Olson probably would have turned away 'The Raven' because Edgar Allen couldn't afford their fee and didn't have an in with their agency.

People who make it should be appreciative of what they have and try to help out the next guy in order to ensure the best of the best is what gets its way to the people.

Anybody approached to read a screenplay or other work is in a normal situation. Somebody approached to read another person's work, even if the reader is not a published writer, shares most of the same attributes of the situation as Olson. Olson shouldn't bother writing about it. If the situation was a scene in a more important thing, it can have a place. Olson's complaint about an average situation looks like an attempt to draw attention to Olson's reek of importance.

I can reasonably show that Olson is a reeker. For one thing, we would assume that Olson would be happy to trade in any fame or money he has received in order to not be bothered by other people Olson perceives won't help him out, because the situation of being bothered has become so intolerable to Olson it is important enough to write what he wrote instead of something about health care or the corporate monopoly on media expression, or anything else more important than the subject Olson chose, with the same heat. No? Thought so. Next, if Olson was a thoughtful person, he'd have developed thoughtful answers for himself to use, which can also be encapsulated in a short paragraph, the usefulness of his thoughtful answers evident, if he seriously intended to educate anybody.

Olson would rather declare himself an important person, so he made a stink about an average situation. If I am wrong about this, I can also reasonably say that Olson is in a state of hysteria resulting in a nasty piece. The problem Olson describes is normal.

when trying to get established writers to read your script the first thing people tend to ignore is that no matter what the established writer's opinion is, it's going to suck.

no matter who you get to read your script and no matter what they say, you will feel defenseless. you will feel immature trying to debate your reasonings for doing certain things, you will feel disrespected when they tell you your ideas are stupid, and you will be left with no other option other than to think that the person you wanted to critique your work is a dick.

That's why I love when my parents read my work. Do they critique it in the slightest? No. Do they absolutely laud over it? Yes. It's a nice moral boost at the end of the day.
If you really want to get Josh Olson or David Gerrold's opinion of your scripts, do a little work n google and IMDB and find online copies of their scripts. Compare and contrast, dissect and dispute. There is something about their work and the agents/producers that they have gotten to read it that has brought them success.

Oscars and fan followings don't breed pretension. Legal issues, time requirements for work, and a desire to have some semblance of a life outside of a computer screen and word processor do. Or at least, what very naive people might dub pretension.

A screenplay is only so good as the movie that's made from it. Write something you can make yourself and maybe these guys will be open to watching a flick for a few hours or a short film versus taking the time to read through your words.

And if you really want a screenwriter to read your script take a summer course at a film school. It will probably get you just as far as if you got it read by your industry connection, yet without the risk of making that the established writer look like a pretentious dick and destroying any semblance of a friendship you might of had.

I found Mr. Gerrold's work inspiration as well, particularly The Man Who Folded Himself, whose protagonist spends so much time traveling he has an orgy with himself. And there's "Tramp. Tramp. Tramp. The men went through the swamp." from another of his early works.

Will anyone ever figure out why one of his first novels was dedicated to the first victim in the Tate-La Bianca murders? I see it's not on Wikipedia, though the data is there.

And now we know why Thomas Pynchon and J.D. Salinger and Trevanian are hermits. Because guys like P.B. and Gallagher G. think that because they read a book, it gives them the right to invade the author's privacy and sit in judgment. It's no wonder Josh Olson and David Gerrold and probably a lot of other writers feel the way they do about thoughtless fans. A book is only a book, not an invitation to anything else.

And as for Gerrold's dedication, so what? He dedicated his book to a friend who died. Why is that a big mystery? Sounds to me like Gallagher has a bug up his butt about something.

I think that it is more important to remember that David Gerrold didn't just make his first sale as a professional to STAR TREK with "The Trouble With Tribbles" episode, he did it while still in college.

That was a real inspiration to me, and while I was in college submitted several treatments to TREK:NEXT GENERATION. If you want, I'll show you my lovely collection of Paramount Pictures Rejection Letter Stationary. (A collection where every piece was very rightfully earned I may add...)

I thought Olson's original article was simply stating obvious common sense, albeit in an amusingly acerbic manner. Writers - or plumbers, doctors, astronauts, whoever - don't owe anyone a living. So I was absolutely shocked by the ferocity and pig-headedness of so many of the responses.

Indeed there have been so many of these hateful, unreasoned responses that I think it's not going too far to see them as evidence of a disturbing shift in the culture.

I fear that kids brought up now are encouraged to see themselves as "special", whatever their actual skills and abilities.

The buzz concept in child-rearing has been "self-esteem". This means that where a child was previously told, "you need to practice that piano piece harder, or you'll never realise your dream of becoming a concert pianist", they now are told they're doing wonderfully - mustn;t hurt their self-esteem. And so, of course, they grow up believing it.

When they leave the education system they go through not only shock but embitterment - they simply haven't been prepared to take the knocks that are a necessary part of success in any career and indeed in life itself.

Popular culture has fed into this "self-esteem" culture. Being famous for doing nothing is now seen as a normal goal, thanks not only to vacuous trollops like Paris H but also endless reality TV shows.

Have we raised a generation of self-entitled monsters?

eyeswiredopen - Life is jazz and mathematics. Stop your bullshit.

I agree with Mr. Olson and Mr. Gerrold on their main points. You do not, however, need to be rude to make those points. Maybe "self-esteem" has been raised to an overly high priority in our culture, but that does not mean it is utterly without value and needs to be stamped on completely.
I am an aspiring writer and would offer this advice to those in the same position. Simply keep writing and keep submitting. When I write something worth a damn, it will sell. The same is true for you. In the mean time the internet has busted things wide open. Anyone can publish electronically for free, or at least for very cheap. Oh and at the risk of joining the chorus of those beating up on the aspirants, don't whine if someone doesn't take you seriously for writing fan fiction or goes after you for trying to profit from it.

A little bit of background.

Back when David was working on the animated Star Trek series in the mid 70's, he had the misfortune of encountering an overly enthusiastic fan who was being given the nickel tour of the Filmation facility. This fan, upon learning that he was in the presence of THE David Gerrold, started gushing forth with his idea for a sequel to "The Trouble With Tribbles". David explained that they'd already produced a sequel episode and it would be airing soon, an explanation that fell on deaf ears as the kid kept on with his pitch. David excused himself as soon as he could.

Days go by, and the episode, "More Tribbles, More Troubles" airs, and like clockwork, the little twerp sends in an outraged letter about how Gerrold ripped him off, resulting in a meeting with various grand poobahs, where David had to produce all his notes about when the episode was produced, along with a reminder that the original story idea dated back to the time of the original series, ending with a admonition to never put David in that position again by letting ignorant fanboys in for a meet-and-greet. Very little good can come from such encounters.

So the man knows a little something about the issue.

Simple solution. Let's just change the law. If someone emails you a manuscript unsolicited, then they are gifting you that script and you can use it free of charge with no moneys or even an acknowledgement of them being the author.

Obviously they are emailing you a gift.

LOL most AmeriCUNTs cant write for shit reading their crap scripts would just ruin one's English( yes, the bluddy Queen's English); it has drilled huge one up the my arse.

Everything Josh said was bang on, right down to the implied guilt of 'doing a favor'. As a writer of three books, once people find this out, they tend to do the same old 'Oh, I'm a writer too, I'm working on blah blah blah' and if they have actually done any work on said project and want you to look at it, it's usually exactly as Josh outlined it: Awful.

I had one girl email me her outline for a series of fantasy books about a girl at a magic school. At least I think it was an outline. Although it could have been the first chapter as she wasn't sure. Needless to say, any comments I gave her on it were returned with excuses. 'Oh, my Mother always corrects the grammar.' was my favorite.

Maybe someone should write an article titled "I Will Not Watch or Buy The Blu-ray To The Movie Based on Your Fucking Script".

Do I agree with what Gerrold and Olson said, pretty much yeah. Do I agree with the way they said it? Hell fucking no. I'm sure it's irritating to have people trying to hit you up and use you to win the lottery, but there are better ways to blow someone off. Do what girls do and say "You're too nice for me to read your fucking script." I mean, that's better, isn't it?

Also, let's not forget that writers are treated like total shit compared to practically everyone else in the business, even grips and craft services.

Instead of paying someone $500 dollars to read your script you should put that money into some equipment and go make the damn thing yourself. Then when you become the next Quentin Tarantino and these guys want you to direct their script, you will know exactly what to say.

those that have, can pay it forward and help those whom need, but it is a choice.

What is it with all these fucking has-been writers telling everyone to fuck off?

I don't get it.

I mean, they're fucking writers. That's it. The bottom rung in a very long chain of events that lead to getting a film produced.

They're treated like scum and schmucks - because most of them are. These two morons are proof.

These grumpy writers are going to be inundated with scripts now. It's like kids taunting a dog on a chain. You push the buttons and make them do the dance. People love irritating people like that and they've brought it on their own heads. They should get away from the PC and start hanging around people again.

My delicate proto-psychic intuitiveness is giving me a sense that screenwriters are really sick of people asking them to read their scripts.

Anyone else picking up on this, or is it just me?

I am quite shocked by the responses here. I am not a writer and have no desire to be a writer. But what happened to helping others. Does being a writer mean that you become incapable of helping other writers? Is helping others and being a writer mutually exclusive?

I can understand the financial ramifications and even some of the points of getting ridiculous manuscripts. But there appears to be no desire to give back or help others.

I'm in marketing and branding - when I meet small business owners or others with ideas to become one, they often will ask me a question or want to pick my brain. Do I run screaming from them like the writers here would have me do? No, I try to help them.

Now I'm not going to spend days and days with them. But in the course of an hour or two, if I can provide them valuable feedback I will.

I guess writing is a profession where it would appropriate for me to tell them to simply fuck off.

It all comes down to time and money.

I am a writer and I would rather be spending time with my young family then reading someones script and the giving feedback which takes a lot of time.

If I am offered payment it's a whole different story. You don't ask a plumber, electrician, etc to come over and ask them for their opinion on your home handiwork. I am sure you would get an incredulous look or a resounding fuck you from them!

Tom Vogel
www.angryproductions.org

Asking someone to read a script is a lot different to asking a plumber or an electrician for an opinion.

Come on guys, for fuck's sake, get in the real world. Olson is nothing but a self-appointed douche'.

End of story.

I'm a bit beffudled at everyone who seems to think that "Asking someone to read a script is a lot different to asking a plumber or an electrician for an opinion."

How is it any different? A plumber is a trained professional, you don't ask him on his off time to go poking around your plumbing and expect him to do it for free. Why the hell ask a writer to do what is essentially their trade, for free?

It takes alot of time and effort to develop the skills to be anything useful, plumber, lawyer, writer etc. I am uncertain why everyone seems to think that writers "owe" anyone anything. Why? Any writer has a reputation due to their own efforts and work. Why should you be owed a leg up?

Steve Chase seems to have a bit of a hair up in an uncomfortable place. My remark about Mr. Gerrold's other brilliant works was in response to the wet-tongued idolatry presented here, and not intended to provoke more of the same.

I know plenty more about Mr. Gerrold, but there's really no reason to get into that stuff, and he's straightened out quite a bit since then. The reason for the dedication can be found in Bugliosi's Helter Skelter, and was offered as a tip, not some peculiar kind of judgment as Steve inferred, no doubt attempting to justify his belief that the great strength of his sphincter can at times generate diamonds of wisdom from charcoal briquettes.

@ Gallagher

So fucking what? Just because he wrote a few books, so what? Whether they're brilliant or merely adequate, so what? He's still done something that most people have never done. He got somebody else to pay for the privilege of publishing what he wrote.

But none of that is an invitation for you or anyone else to discuss his private life or anyone else's private life on a public board. Nobody invited you to sit in judgment on anyone, with remarks like "he's straightened out since then." What the hell is that supposed to mean? If you've got an issue with Gerrold write to him. Don't do this "I've got a secret" bullshit here. It demeans you more than anyone else.

The real issue in this thread is what kind of obligation a professional has. I think Gerrold and Olson and other writers who've chimed in on this topic have made it clear that what they demand from wannabe professionals is a professional level of behavior. That's what gets you in the door.

Okay, I'm late to the party, but I'm gonna chime in anyway. I'm pretty sure I know David Gerrold better than most people because I took his writing class at Pepperdine in 1992 and I've stayed in touch with him ever since, keeping him updated on my own progress. He has always been supportive, always cheering me on.

So this is what I know about David Gerrold. He loves writing. He's passionate about it. If you're not passionate about what you have to say, why should anyone else be passionate about reading it? Checking my notes from his class, he said, "Life is about taking on challenges. Stories are about what we learn from taking on challenges. Great writers take on challenges in their own lives and report back to the rest of us. Win or lose." That was the semester he adopted a little boy, his "Martian Child." (We used to sidetrack him into talking about Dennis because he always had great stories to share. We heard the "pickled mongoose" story before he ever wrote it.)

Here's something else from his class, I thought it was so good I saved it in my journal: "I'm not a guru. I don't believe in gurus. I'm a human being. I sit and talk to myself. I listen to what I say. If it's any good, I type. If someone pays to read it, I'm a writer. If not, I'm a nutbag. I don't have absolute truth. Nobody does. What I have is a conversation, a story, nothing else. That's it. That's all any of us have, our conversations, our stories. Most of what we do is share our stories with each other. Stories are about problems and how we solve them. I think human beings are hard-wired to solve problems and the stories we tell are us sharing our experiences with each other. The greatest gift any of us can give anyone else is our listening." (Pause) "Although, I gotta tell you, some of the things you get to listen to, after the third or ninth or twenty-seventh time are pretty damn boring. So if you can get someone to listen to you, then fergosh sakes you have an obligation not to bore them to death." (Pause) "But let me say this, listening to others is probably the best skill a writer can develop. Because other people are your best source material. Learn to listen. Not just to what they're saying, but where they're coming from, that's the real meat in the story."

So here's my point. I don't know you, Mr. Gallagher G., but it seems to me that you really do not know very much at all about David Gerrold, because if you knew as much as you like to pretend, you wouldn't be saying the kind of things you're saying.

First, I think Olson and Gerrold are being entirely reasonable here -- partially due the frequency of the imposition, and largely due to the legal concern.

That said, I wonder how often one of them (or any of the other writers chiming in on this topic) has asked someone at a dinner party about a medical question/condition, or what kind of computer to buy, or whether they need to buy anti-virus software for their Mac...

Because I've been answering those questions (about computers) to friends, family, and strangers since I was 15, and I've been hearing my father fielding the same questions about medicine for even longer (he's a psychiatrist, but that includes an MD). We were both extremely amused on the day I noticed I was being hit up for advice more often than he was, because people have more computer questions than medical questions (thank *something*)...

I love Gerrold's work. He IS a dick though not for writing this article but for his ass dragging on the Chtorr series.... I'll still buy the next one when it eventually comes out.

You would be crazy to not use more article marketing

Hah, I have to agree with Anonymous @ 6:57. Come on, finish the Chtorr series already!

I've loved Gerrold's work since I read his and Niven's "The Misspelled Magishun" (later "The Flying Sorcerors"). And of course, The Fuss over Flatca--, er, The Trouble with Tribbles. ;-)

To Chris Pepper: it's not just the frequency of the requests (I get those too), it's the amount of time. To put it in computer terms, it's the difference between asking you what kind of anti-virus software to get and asking you to debug the 10,000-line program they just wrote.

Gerrold broke into screenwriting and fiction by sending unsolicited unrequested manuscript to gene l. coon (details are also at wikipedia) when he was an unpublished college student in 1966. Gene rejected the script but told him to send more in which he did one of which was 'fuzzies' script later renamed 'the trouble with tribbles."

PS that's Gene L. Coon (writer and producer on the classic star trek TV series franchise). They didn't have email in 1966 so he mailed it and Mr. Coon responded.

more on gerrold at his wikipedia entry. Also do a search on google you will find more details on the above.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure the "$500" bit was supposed to be a joke.

The irritating thing about all this is the implication/assumption that writers are unemployed bums who have all the free time in the world. That's simply not the case. Writing is hard work - harder work than most other fields of endeavor out there.

And I wouldn't dream of imposing on a person's creative time. Heck, I feel guilty every time I send David an e-mail, knowing how busy he is, knowing that's 30 seconds of creative time he can't get back.

BTW, I, too, have been victimized by the "can you take a look at my computer" plague, although thankfully as the technology has advanced (and my knowledge remains rooted in the mid-1990's) I no longer get such requests, except from my mother, who still hasn't figured out how to extract pictures from her e-mails. ;)