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Pitchfork's Year-End List Vs. Haters

Posted by Tom Breihan at 5:18 PM, December 28, 2005

angry.jpg
Status reads Stereogum board, reacts

This happened a week ago, so I should've commented on it earlier, but I've been stewing. Even with the internet running things, it's not all that often that music writers get a chance to learn what readers think of their work. Year-end lists offer a rare opportunity: magazines and websites and website magazines offering their takes on the year in music, giving a basic road map to their tastes, laying it all out in front of you. I write for Pitchfork, which meant that I got to vote on its year-end albums and singles lists. And the lists turned out really well: plenty of the meat-and-potatoes indie-rock that earned Pitchfork its place in the world but also making room on the albums list for Fiona Apple and Robyn and Young Jeezy and Konono No. 1 and Dominik Eulberg and SunnO))) and Ladytron and Run the Road and Antony and the Johnsons. I don't love all these albums, don't even like some of them, but the list is a sprawling and complicated and thoughtful collection of records, and I'm proud to have my name on it.

Right after the album list went up, OG monsterblog Stereogum posted it with minimal commentary ("Better luck next year Kanye"). The real action was in the comments section. Most of it was predictable: some people defending it, most people attacking it, a few people saying no way does Art Brut deserve #3, many more wondering how the fuck we snubbed Broken Social Scene / Andrew Bird / the National / Iron and Wine / Gorillaz / Danger Doom / Black Mountain / Kate Bush and expressing confusion over how certain highly-rated albums missed the list while other, less well-reviewed albums made the cut. (All the Pitchfork writers voted on the lists, while only one writer wrote each of the individual reviews.) Music dorks do this stuff all the time; I certainly e-mail bombed Spin a couple of times to ask why certain albums didn't make their year-end top twenty before I hit drinking age. But the most interesting and disheartening part of the comments were the huge amounts of bile and outrage directed at six albums that appeared on the list: Kanye West's Late Registration at #2, Cam'ron's Purple Haze at #9, Clipse's We Got It 4 Cheap, Vol. 2 at #14, Beanie Sigel's The B.Coming at #32, Game's The Documentary at #35, and Young Jeezy's Let's Get It: Thug Motivation 101 at #40. One guess what these guys have in common.

Now this is true: Pitchfork has grown more rap-friendly over the last couple of years, hiring rap-friendly writers like me and Riff Raff and Sean Fennessey and Ryan Dombal and Pete Macia. When the site hired me to write track reviews in August 2004, I was pretty sure I'd get dropped right away when I picked Lil Scrappy's "No Problem" as my first review. Pitchfork has covered rap for about half of its ten-year lifespan, but it's been mostly backpack-indieground stuff like MF Doom and Sage Francis (hence all the confusion about Danger Doom and Common and Edan not making the list, like these guys deserve placement every time they shit something out, slight/boring or no). Lately, coverage has swung away from self-consciously "smart" indie-rap dudes toward trap-hop/street-rap guys like Cam and Clipse. Pitchfork has taken its lumps for the move, but it's genuine; the dudes in charge have encouraged me and the other rap guys to go as deep into this stuff as we can, and no one's ever asked me to stop indiscriminately bestowing love upon Three 6 Mafia. And so here's the site's first year-end list where the rap selections aren't dominated by granola-munchers like De La Soul and bugged-out freaky-freaks like Doom (though, of course, you could easily posit Cam as a bugged-out freaky-freak). And judging by the Stereogum board, the overwhelming reaction is stuff like this: "the inclusion of Cam'ron at #9 is not only ridiculous, but is a ploy/pose to seem hip-hop friendly...when we all know it's not really the case," "could you imagine these kids in their tight shirts and emo glasses at a young jeezy concert... HA," "the glaring problem with their list is the Camron placement at #9??! No matter how they explain the reasoning behind it, it still just doesn't make any sense!!" Or this little gem: "I think P4K could have made separate lists- One for indie and one for rap. That way the genres are separated, like they should be. Indie kids could read one list and not bitch about rap, and rap fans could do vice versa. Problem solved." Yes. Segregation solves all problems.

Now, plenty of music fans have plenty of valid reasons for having trouble with mainstream rap; I certainly often have trouble dealing with the relentless misogyny/violence/acquisitiveness. But there's not a lot of talk about that stuff in the Stereogum thread, no thoughtful debate on the relative merits and demerits of rap as it exists now. It's all outright dismissal. As Scott Plagenhoef points out on the thread itself, Pitchfork has also recently increased its coverage of non-indie-rock genres like house and Europop and drone and metal, genres all represented on the list, and no one seemed to have much problem with those inclusions. It's just rap. Why?

I should clarify here that I don't represent Pitchfork in saying this, just myself, but this hysterically sweeping denunciation of an entire genre (or at least aspects of the genre that aren't willfully obscure) is sad and nasty and repellant. As the dude who reviewed three of the controversial six albums for Pitchfork, I can't help but take all this at least a little bit personally, but it goes beyond just me and the stuff I like to write about. Pitchfork's list is the product of about forty writers, rather than something like Pazz & Jop, which has about 1500 voters and is as close to definitive as these things get. The Pitchfork list doesn't pretend to be definitive; it's simply the favorite albums, by consensus, of the forty-or-so writers who churn out five album reviews and three track reviews and 1.25 features a day on Pitchforkmedia.com (for free, I should add). Indie-rock supposedly prides itself on open-mindedness and liberalism and independent thought, not knee-jerk antipopulism and received wisdom and genre gatekeeping. So it's deeply troubling to see people who love this stuff unwilling to look outside their shitty little ghetto and consider the merits of art made by people who don't share their experiences. Or, more than troubling, it's shameful. You guys should know better.

comments

"...Shit, I was against the idea of reviewing hip-hop altogether - it's not even music," said Senior Staff Writer Mark Richardson.

That's your answer. MANY folks feel the same way.

We Got it 4 Cheap Vol 2 should've been top 10. Purple Haze DID come out in 2k4, after all.

Posted by: benny profane at December 28, 2005 8:25 PM

You're right. Pitchfork has an obligation to make all forms of cultural expression relevant to everyone, overcoming indie-dom's ugly unspoken racism (You put your finger right on the button!) and elitist condescension. I hereby offer my services to pitchfork to review the latest in mariachi music. So suck on that stereogum faithful. Vicente Fernandez sera numero uno!

Posted by: devinf at December 28, 2005 9:43 PM

"Indie-rock supposedly prides itself on open-mindedness and liberalism and independent thought, not knee-jerk antipopulism and received wisdom and genre gatekeeping."
Although I agree with this in spirit and on principle, it doesn't bear out empirically. Since Pitchfork undertook a more open-minded outlook, indie chauvinism was preserved mainly because chauvinists already presume themselves more sophisticated than Pitchfork's regular contributors. Unable to recognize the significant changes that have taken place, there's a sort of epistemic firewall installed between the critic and reader, resulting in a backlash not only against the list, but the outliers in electronic, metal (which there still isn't much of, imho) and hiphop, stemming from perceived questions of authenticity, credibility, etc all of which is indubitably unsubstantiated bullshit.

Maybe it's because hiphop is most recognizable. Maybe it's the notion of hiphop's conquest as a "revolutionary" idiom over rock 'n' roll that indie types find objectionable (this is a racialized corrollary.) More likely it's the absurd notion of the list being a canonical reference of what was important in 2005 that readers infer from year end roundups, leading them to impute intent and agenda to a statistical accident.

It's disappointing to find mainly negative reactions instead of curious questions about electronic music and other lesser knowns. Then again, if one judges by the number of copies of Burned Mind in the used bin, and how Arcade Fire are the new Shins, it's safe to say that narrowness prevails.

(Disclaimer: I wasn't the JT who appears first in line in the stereogum)

Posted by: Blackmail Is My Life at December 28, 2005 10:00 PM

well said. although they're a little sporadic i find pfork's rap reviews almost always on the mark; if you guys give a high rating to a new rap track i downl-- uhh, purchase it on iTunes immediately.

however, i've gotta say i took more issue with the year-end singles list than anything. although i don't agree with the "segregation" idea per se, it is a little jarring to see antony & the johnsons and amerie right next to each other in ANY context. while i never have the "wow that's exactly what i think... wow, i'm an asshole" reaction to a stylus review, their singles list seemed to focus more on radio-ready songs and celebrate those with that enigmatic quality of repeat playability.

i hated and still hate "since u been gone" and hated ted leo's stupid cover of it, but i was in a van full of people this summer and it came on the radio and yeah, we all sang along. that to me is a good single. "hope there's someone," on the other hand -- sure, it's beautiful, but how many times do i really need to have my heart ripped out?

Posted by: Pink robot Sushi at December 28, 2005 11:48 PM

Nice article. I found it interesting from the perspective of someone who started listening to hip hop just this year. It may be reactionary to think so , but it's almost hard to not interpret this as racism. I sincerly doubt that the people hating on Cam'ron's placement have even heard the album! On the other hand though it would be interesting to see if those same people would have questioned the rap quotient if Dangerdoom or Edan replaced Cam's coveted spot...

Posted by: vreen at December 29, 2005 1:22 AM

Tom, take a good look at the links at right of your article. More than half are Pitchfork staffers and superfans like Stylus and Chris Nelson. Who let you all into the Village Voice? I find myself asking, "Could this once-relevant bastion of literate music criticism matter less in 2005/6?" It's a shocking and disheartening thing, seeing scenester flakes play with its reputation, writing about the reaction to Pitchforkmedia.com's ridiculous "Top 50."

It may pain you to consider it, but the fact is many literate people consider bullsh*t like Clipse to be embarrassing and false. And while they may not be expressing this in terms florid enough for your approval, the dope, guns and f***ing in the streets arm of hip-hop reeks of the worst unsubstantiated bravado and meaningless "rebel" cool, things only a thirteen year-old could find intimidating or impressive.

[And Tom, what are even saying in that penultimate paragraph? "If you don't have anything overeducated to say, don't say anything at all?" You don't have to take "simple" criticism seriously? Wake up from the liberal-arts dream, dude. This is New York City. And your list sucks.]

That you and your gaggle of well-fed pals are so incapable of calling a duck a duck is only evidence of a sad, totally unexamined (and frankly racist) effort to prop up laughable hip-hop loudmouths as poets, to transitively transcend your sheltered insecurity by basking in their (completely phony) overconfidence and "hard" image. Cocaine! Holy s***!

You can't king-make a jester like Jeezy. Yours and so many of your peers' fantasies of and condescension toward nonsense like "trap-hop" absolutely jumps from the page. And apparently you don't even know it, can't see it, and will continue to make fools of yourselves, a la Nick Sylvester's increasingly-used and outrageously racist Amos n' Andy voice (see Pitchfork singles list entry #16).

Posted by: Chris Ott at December 29, 2005 10:36 AM

I check out that pickfork review when it was posted, and as a hard core hiphop fan i was severely disappointed.
Nothing (and i mean it) makes me more angry than this thugged out wannabe crap. Thankfully we dont own a tv, but every single time i'm at the gym i'm forced to watch semi naked girls (falling for)guys who constantly grab their crotch, in some expensive video rubbish. I though this shit was only for kids, only to find my boss, age = 37, lip synching to fiddy cent at the christmas party.
weak.
Thug Motivation 101 ??? - Nigger please!

p.s. kayne west makes some decent music.

love you all

big shout out to Chriss Ott! you said it best

Posted by: datsun at December 29, 2005 1:51 PM

Chris Ott as Greg Tate? Calling out the conflict of interest is one thing and totally acceptable, but the implicitly nostalgic teleological wishdream for HipHop is in and of itself laughably wrongheaded. The dope, guns and f*cking the streets arm comes as a welcome relief to the Stalinoid didacticism of supposedly "black-conscious" HipHop, which is as anti-democratic a concept as I can imagine.

Posted by: Blackmail Is My Life at December 29, 2005 1:52 PM

I check out that pickfork review when it was posted, and as a hard core hiphop fan i was severely disappointed.

Nothing (and i mean it) makes me more angry than this thugged out wannabe crap. Thankfully we dont own a tv, but every single time i'm at the gym i'm forced to watch semi naked girls (falling for)guys who constantly grab their crotch, in some expensive video rubbish. I though this shit was only for kids, only to find my boss, age = 37, lip synching to fiddy cent at the christmas party.
weak.
Thug Motivation 101 ??? - Nigger please!

p.s. kayne west makes some decent music.

love you all

Much love to Chriss Ott - you said it best

Posted by: datsun at December 29, 2005 1:59 PM

like a fly on shit!

i don't disagree with chris that this post is problematic, sorta like making photocopies for your yard sale using the xerox at work. even the extent to which someone might fancy the pfork list, or any list, as some sort of cultural moment, i'm just not sure this was the venue given the partisanship / venn loyalties, etc..

but chris i do think it's unfair to play some reverso racecard shit on (white) people who think rap is poetry, Important as return to orality after centuries of imprisonment-by-text, eerily close to Hellenistic-era bucolic circles, stuff like that. if you want to say *that's* racist, please do, because it is insofar as it privileges rap-as-language over rap-as-culture, but i'm interested in what i'm interested in. plus one could make the argument that as rap's dropped the social responsibility it's finally had the chance to become legitimized as Art/Poetry, defense of language by keeping it anew, trying to say something better or more accurately or more interestingly--i don't know, i have a lot at stake in that shit.

and as someone who just used the word "king-make" (you know i'm your biggest fan), you must have some interest in that side of things too--or at least might see someone else's interest there not as condescending, just giddy or overly excitable at worst.

Posted by: riffraff at December 29, 2005 2:04 PM

Ralph Ellison to thread.

Posted by: Blackmail Is My Life at December 29, 2005 2:39 PM

I am the shit, I am the shit, shit in the ointment...

So because I'm against vacuous image rap I'm pro-Nubian consciousness? Why not take it even farther: accuse me of only liking "safe" posi-core Reggae. I'm not lobbying for people to get up and recite Banneker over backbeats, I'm talking about thin ideas you lot are beefing up with blag.

I don't see how you can say rap has dropped social responsibility Nick, I mean...it's been a clean/dirty duality since Kurtis Blow and Grandmaster Flash shot club/street salvos. And this stuff is tame compared to first-wave gangsta-rap.

I am not pulling a puritanic stance on this, I'm not PMRC-ing, I just can't take it seriously until it moves past "beats" and image gets to something more expressive. "1 Thing" is in that camp for me, despite its obvious debts to "Crazy in Love." A better example: Crazy Titch, to me the guy was so original and talented, he single-handedly justified the garbage critics were shoveling about Grime (which as you know ramped up long before it earned its keep).

It's been Disco Deux since the Neptunes somehow became producer-stars for programming, and sprinkling a little blue-flake and some incoherent "personality" on that doesn't make it hard *or* art. It's a facade, and you guys are helping sell it by buying into it and translating it in impassioned pieces, the same way everyone sold 50 Cent (which, whatever, he actually had a pretty original style and I like a few of his singles). But that image part is what secured him, his looks and his attitude and his backstory. And if you want to keep on the race card, I don't recall that coming along with Eminem. He had to make 8 Mile to sell that.

Posted by: Chris Ott at December 29, 2005 2:51 PM

I think the "Disco Deux" comment substantiates what I said pretty succinctly.

Posted by: Blackmail Is My Life at December 29, 2005 2:57 PM

Not to slog myself through the thought of Pitchfork's readership once more (having written there for 2+ years), or even the Voice's at present, but it's incredibly foolish to ideally assume one's audience to be enlightened, open-minded, well-integrated, or able to think far beyond their established cultural parameters. If anything, the dogmas of indie-rock are founded upon "knee-jerk anti-populism," but who doesn't build up walls to establish inside versus out, whether its by skin tone, income, education, area code, or ‘hood?

I'll abstain from Ott's recent points (right/ wrongheaded) and the role of fantasy, role-playing, bluster, and braggadaccio in ‘trap’ music (not to mention the deplorable loss of metaphor at large, as stated by either Robert Frost or most recently by Philip Pullman in the New Yorker) and instead defend Sterogum’s accused readers as not being racist or stupid, just normal given their lot and outlook.

Their readership no doubt overlaps with Pitchfork’s and demands music from bands “that will change your life,” with profundity and words that soothe, reflect, affirmate, or confirm what they think to be true about their confusing world. That’s what they want out of their music. That’s all anyone wants out of ‘their music’ in the end, and it will mean different things to different people. Your music makes you, as your iPod will tell you.

Those comforted by the music, message, or meaning of a Sufjan Stevens or Arcade Fire aren’t gonna feel similarly moved by Cam’Ron or Clipse, so it rings false for them to see their dealers at Pitchfork pretend to be hood when they need a fix since there's no new Shins album. Jeezy’s fans aren’t feeling Animal Collective or Decemberists either, but why on earth would that speak to them in their situation? In Brownsville, they’re blogging about Konono or Black Mountain, or reading about what the Voice has to say about Juelz? Either side, you’re deluding yourself that the status ain’t quo.

Posted by: beta at December 29, 2005 4:32 PM

Uh, sorry, but you can too "feel" Cam'Ron & Clipse while being "comforted" by Sufjan & Arcade Fire. I am. Lots are. Chris Ott's comments are simply inane, insofar as they assume some sort of culture-industrial consumption game at work in hip-hop while indie-rock remains pristine. It's called form & content, dude, & I know what Creeley said but come on. There are some of us who appreciate the complexity & beauty of the beats, while hating the message. Some of us are white English PhD candidates, who also actually do believe that rap is a form of poetry. Get this, Chris: you're not right. You're not necessarily wrong. We're arguing about aesthetics here, not fossil records. So some rap is about cocaine & bitches & bling: cf. Robert Johnson, Skip James, Charlie Patton. Jesus, some poetry is about cocaine! "Many literate people" find all sorts of things to be bullshit & false, but "many literate people" find Clipse to be engaging & bright & wonderful. (Want names?) How stupid to assume that what we like about Clipse are the bravado, &c., or that a black 13-year-old might not be appreciating the music at a much more sophisticated level. There's nothing condescending in my love of hip-hop, bro, whether or not I can envision circumstances where I'd be denounced as a whitey poseur. & what the hell is wrong with disco?!

Posted by: m.robbins at December 29, 2005 5:39 PM

You know what really irks me about this? There's been a switcheroo. The same ignorance towards commercial rap years ago has become the ignorance towards underground. There were plenty of good underground albums this year. Why does there have to be an obsession with one extreme or the other when it comes to hip-hop? Why can't we just spread all the poker chips on the table and not be so glaringly opposed to "underground" or "commercial" as if they should be two different species? It is infuriating! Stop lumping everything together. And one more thing, Tom, as well as anyone else who might care: Edan has only put out two proper full length albums. It's not like he's a rap veteran like Clipse who have only put out...shit, they've only put out one official album! Sorry. Mixtapes don't count. - E

Posted by: symantiks at December 29, 2005 8:39 PM

It's wrong for Tom (or any white hip-hop critic, for that matter) to disavow notions of race or ideas of servitude when reviewing an art form that began as and in many ways still is a black folk culture (and Greg Tate would say that at this point it isn't, anymore), but I don't think he does that. An acknowledgement of his priveleged status and his own disconnect (if there is one) with the melieu of trap-hoppers like Cam'ron and Jeezy is enough for me, and I think that sometimes Pitchfork (and again, most white hip-hop critics) tend to disregard the crucial way in which their races and backgrounds change the way certain kinds of hip-hop sound to them.

BUT--to regard the Clipse and Jeezy as "embarrassing" to "literate people" belies a certain kind of classism and a disregard for a certain kind of expression. Johnny Cash was never derided for singing "Folsom Prison Blues," or any number of amoral songs about murder, etc. What we have here is a certain kind of double standard. Obviously, the world of Johnny Cash and the world of Pusha and Malice are, well, worlds apart. But for we as middle-class white people to understand that Cash's words are spoken not as exhortations to violence or even from real experience while deriding the Clipse's words as somehow bringing down an entire culture means that we lack any sort of subtlety as critics. Do the Clipse or Jeez reflect poorly on black people as a whole? Well, that depends on where you're looking from.

BUT (again) that's not what Tom is talking about (at least, I don't think so). We're not having a conscious vs. gangster debate (and frankly that's a tired, misinformed and ultimately ignorant and simplisitic kind of debate), we're talking about the way certain white people react to a list like Pitchfork's. It's not that these people were deriding Pitchfork's selection of Cam as disrespectful or even racist, but simply in its status as black music--whether or not they were willing to admit it. There is a split in the almost entirely white "indie" world where a certain faction takes the (almost high-school) stance that the only "good rap" is that which is somehow political, conscious, or just plain weird--a group of people that will buy all of Def Jux or Rhymesayers's new albums while ignoring anything that Jay-Z or Nas does. The problem with taking a stance like this is that it ignores the subtleties and intricacies of hip-hop's history and culture. Anyone trying to cast the history of hip-hop as "street vs. pop" or "conscious vs. gangsta" is either ignorant or lying. To pretend that putting MF Doom or De La on the list instead of Cam'ron is some kind of political, "conscious" move--or what's more, to pretend that the Stereogum readers were objecting to Cam'ron because he was amoral, misogynistic or materialistic--is self-deception of the worst kind.

Should white hip-hop critics self-examine more? Maybe. Hell, probably. But should white rock fans who dismiss non-indie black artists check themselves? Yes. "Rockism," as played-out as it might be, finds itself at its wost (racist) in the Stereogum comments. Tom might be ignorant (and I don't think he really is), but at least he's trying

Posted by: Max Reax at December 30, 2005 3:08 AM

2005's best-of nods:
-Kanye (naturally)
-Major-label drugplay/gunplay : Cam, Clipse, Beanie, Game, Jeezy

2004's best-of nods:
-Kanye (naturally)
-Ghostface (who was always regarded as a Kool Keith-style novelty in indie circles)
-Dizzee Rascal and the Streets (foreign stuff)
-Cee-Lo Green (mom-friendly cosmic slop)
-Foriegn Exchange (URB-reading uber-nrrd downtempo)
-De La Soul ("like these guys deserve placement every time they shit something out, slight/boring or no")
-Madvillainy (a motherfucking sloppy blunted sprawling mess that cracked the top 10)

Indie-rap didn't have such a bad 2005. But the majority of hip-hop coverage I saw was post-grad white kids talking in pidgin english furiously comparing the funniest ways someone says "I sell drugs." Using idiotic non-words like "trap-hop." Comparing Dipset to Derrida.

I've said it before: It feels like "Holiday In Cambodia" sometimes. Who can blame the indie kids for rebelling?

I still have yet to find the merit in someone like Jeezy, who brags about poisoning the community like it's his raison d'etre, esp. in an era where crack sales are way down. I refuse to believe that Cam'ron's tricky licks are somehow more valid (or fun) than Sage Francis's. I love Clipse and Beanie as much as the next guy who doesn't get much sun. But why should it be at the expense of Atmosphere, Dalek, Quasimoto, Blueprint or Cage? The MCs who actually carry themselves like indie-rockers had to sit at the kids table while everyone marveled at Cam'ron's wardrobe.

Posted by: Christopher R. Weingarten at December 30, 2005 4:53 AM

As someone who wrote for Pitchfork way back when even trying to review a Rawkus release was met with controversy, I think most of the strides they've made with writing about hip hop have been positive, although noone's going to top the Ethan P/Mullah Omar days. I gotta say, though, my problem with PF's recent hip hop coverage is how homogenous it is. I'd rather see a wider variety of stuff covered in the singles section than exhaustive accounts of everything Dipset/Jeezy/Clipse do. It's gotten to the point where I check the page and all I think is, who the hell is "Pete L'Official" and why does he have the same taste and writing style as 3 or 4 other guys who already wrote on the site? I guess it's nice that y'all are a tight knit group and take each other's reccomendations, but when you form a voting bloc to get random Cam'ron mixtape tracks that non-Dipheads have never heard of onto the singles list, it's a little ridiculous (to be fair, obviously other PF writers listen to that stuff, but it seems like they're deferring to the expertise of the designated hip hop writers). I mean, I'm sure Pitchfork needs 4 or 5 guys to cover every Guided By Voices side project, but to apply that kind of monomania to the site's limited hip hop coverage is a waste. There definitely needs to be more variety. And honestly, the slanguage is out of control, some of that writing is so incomprehensible it makes me want to write in nothing but the king's english.

Posted by: GovernmentNames at December 30, 2005 9:14 AM

But the majority of hip-hop coverage I saw was post-grad white kids talking in pidgin english furiously comparing the funniest ways someone says "I sell drugs." Using idiotic non-words like "trap-hop." Comparing Dipset to Derrida.

But the majority of hip-hop coverage I saw was post-grad white kids talking in pidgin english furiously comparing the funniest ways someone says "I sell drugs." Using idiotic non-words like "trap-hop." Comparing Dipset to Derrida.

But the majority of hip-hop coverage I saw was post-grad white kids talking in pidgin english furiously comparing the funniest ways someone says "I sell drugs." Using idiotic non-words like "trap-hop." Comparing Dipset to Derrida.

But the majority of hip-hop coverage I saw was post-grad white kids talking in pidgin english furiously comparing the funniest ways someone says "I sell drugs." Using idiotic non-words like "trap-hop." Comparing Dipset to Derrida.

But the majority of hip-hop coverage I saw was post-grad white kids talking in pidgin english furiously comparing the funniest ways someone says "I sell drugs." Using idiotic non-words like "trap-hop." Comparing Dipset to Derrida.

But the majority of hip-hop coverage I saw was post-grad white kids talking in pidgin english furiously comparing the funniest ways someone says "I sell drugs." Using idiotic non-words like "trap-hop." Comparing Dipset to Derrida.

But the majority of hip-hop coverage I saw was post-grad white kids talking in pidgin english furiously comparing the funniest ways someone says "I sell drugs." Using idiotic non-words like "trap-hop." Comparing Dipset to Derrida.

But the majority of hip-hop coverage I saw was post-grad white kids talking in pidgin english furiously comparing the funniest ways someone says "I sell drugs." Using idiotic non-words like "trap-hop." Comparing Dipset to Derrida.

But the majority of hip-hop coverage I saw was post-grad white kids talking in pidgin english furiously comparing the funniest ways someone says "I sell drugs." Using idiotic non-words like "trap-hop." Comparing Dipset to Derrida.

But the majority of hip-hop coverage I saw was post-grad white kids talking in pidgin english furiously comparing the funniest ways someone says "I sell drugs." Using idiotic non-words like "trap-hop." Comparing Dipset to Derrida.

But the majority of hip-hop coverage I saw was post-grad white kids talking in pidgin english furiously comparing the funniest ways someone says "I sell drugs." Using idiotic non-words like "trap-hop." Comparing Dipset to Derrida.

Posted by: riffraff at December 30, 2005 9:36 AM

but what really hangs you chris (besides the fact that pfork's staff changed considerably from 2004 to 2005, and the fact that all those indie albums you mentioned were covered/processed/liked!/etc, AND the fact that a tiny subset of rap called drug rap completely dominated this year and i don't think you can't really fault a publication for covering a beat, yes, at the expense of other musics, because space/human resources/$$$ is limited) is you clearly haven't listened to the jeezy album OR the clipse album if you think jeezy's bragging about poisoning his community. that's actually the clipse who brag about that, and for that reason it was extremely difficult music to deal with, lyrics so alluring poetically. who knows, maybe you're not a lyrics guy

can't expect everyone to be on or into the sanctification/beautification of the ugly/gritty game, e.g. cam's game, or you know, the blues (why didn't pfork cover blues wtf?!). but that you'd compare cam to sage francis, who in my mind are doing two completely separate (and totally fine) things with rap music... it really is just words and beat to you, isn't it, the whole always equals the parts' sum, and that's lazy crit.

Posted by: riffraff at December 30, 2005 10:01 AM

the main problem with this post (and i'm not even bothering with the comments box minefield of a bunch of overeducated white folks talkin race) is that tom shouldn't be shitting where he eats.

Posted by: jess h. at December 30, 2005 10:44 AM

Chris are you trying to say that these dudes (Cam, Juelz, Jeezy, etc.) are really "poisoning the community?" I don't think so; looks like you think they're bragging (in an era where crack sales are way down) and not strictly telling some sort of truth...isn't this basically what Big Black and Albini did all through the 80s and up till now? Nobody accused them of either a) actually doing the sick things they talked about, or b) convincing anyone else to do them either. If anything Albini's loved for saying crazy things (see S F/J recent longing to hear his comment on contemporary kidnapping/shady business deal detailed in the NYTimes). I don't see what's different between Big Black's audience and a trap-hop audience.

Juelz was on Hot 97 this morning talking about how anyone who's been rapping for even a year isn't on the street doing the things they talking about doing in their songs; that's just common sense. Seems like critiquing Jeezy et al for being poisonous is to essentially think that his audience is fundamentally less capable of distinguishing fantasy from reality or truth from fiction. If college radio kids listening to Shellac can figure out that the murders aren't really occuring, nor should they follow Albini's sick lead, than why not hip-hop's audience as well?

Posted by: Zach at December 30, 2005 10:53 AM

Considering how far afield this discussion has gone, I'm interested to hear what Tom thinks about this.

For me, the Busdriver album summed up many of indie rap's worst qualities, which had more than a little in common with Leroi Jones' The Slave: a discussion of ostensibly radical black politics addressed to white elites, quixotically self-referential, sanctimoniously dismissing any HipHop that didn't adhere rigidly to this prescriptive heuristic. This is quintessentially Trotskyist. Fear of a Black Tangent reeked of specious condescension.

I think it's also being suggested that critics are celebrating contentious, violent (read: dangerous) subject matter, and I don't think that's true. Frankly, I liked David Banner's Certified because it exemplified the thorny political culture in which there are no pristine archetypes formed directly from the Godhead. And I find the racialized double standard about content, its intent and affect deeply troubling.

Posted by: Blackmail Is My Life at December 30, 2005 11:12 AM

I dunno. I couldn't wrap my brain around the west coast g-funk guns-n-ganja nihilism in 1993, so I doubt I'll ever be able to understand happy crack rap. (then again, I came around to dre, so maybe i'll get this too in a few years). Sure, I know that Juelz/Jeezy probably haven't seen a rock in ages (if ever), but using a sick LP-long metaphor about being on the anatagonistic side of a racial/class issue just seems like a pretty sick fucking joke to me.

Posted by: Christopher R. Weingarten at December 30, 2005 11:56 AM

My main objection to most of Pitchfork's Hiphop reviews are the lack of context. Certainly it's interesting to see reviews judging albums purely musically as opposed to the terrible schlock journalism that gets passed off as rap critique in the mainstream press, but there's a lot to be said for perspective and experience. Do pitchfork's writers and readers know or even care about Main Source? Pete Rock and CL Smooth, The Juice Crew or any artists from that generation? A quick look back at some earlier rap reviews (search for anything Wu-Tang) shows a startling lack of knowlege on the subject and I have a feelling Brent DiCrescenzo hasn't spent 98-05 catching up on his Boogie Down Productions.

The mainstream vs. underground argument was a reaction based purely out of insecurity: it was stupid then and it's stupid now. The same way that both Bad Boy and Rawkus had great material and terrible mistakes, Dipset, Swishahouse, Houston and Def Jux all have their hits and misses. If a reviewer doesn't know what makes for good Hiphop in the first place though, you're likely to end up with idiotic statements supporting either ignorance for the sake of ignorance or elitist nerd-rap for it's own sake.

I trust Pitchfork for indie-rock/pop reviews because I know that they've been listening to that stuff for years. I trust that they were there bumping Sonic Youth, Pavement and other grandfathers of today's indie rock and thus can accurately judge today's work in perspective. As for Hiphop though? I'm sure they're honestly interested in what Dipset's doing now, but it feels as if it's in a vacuum.

Maybe I'm wrong and everyone there has deep crates and spends their weekends dissecting DITC 12 inches instead of twee pop 7's...but I doubt it.

Posted by: Sach at December 30, 2005 2:12 PM

WTF Tom and Nick? Are you *trying* to start a race war in order to defend your shitty taste? As P4K contributors, you know P4k's audience: bratty knee-jerkers who look to P4k as a place where they can all have their egos stroked for being different from the dreaded mainstream. How did you think a P4k reader would react to Cam and Jeezy the Angry Snowman (who has his stupid shit on a TSHIRT) taking the coveted spot that should have gone (in their opinion) to someone more like Wesley Willis or some other such shit-in-a-can artist?
The fact is, no one cared about the "Hip Hop having too large of a presence" issue until you MADE it an issue. If you had put (and I'm not saying you should have-- your taste is your taste) Dangerdoom on the list, no one would have blinked an eye. Just the same, if you had put Madonna's Confessions in that same spot, you would have had just as much ANARCHY.
If a musician isn't putting out an "organic" effort, the typical indie kid isn't going to be down with it. This is why they don't want to hear about that DipSet mess.
PICK YOUR BATTLES WITH MORE DISGRESSION, and stop dragging this race shit into places it dosent need to be.

Oh and that kid how posted the segregation suggestion is either joking (cos indie kids are big fans of irony, I hear) or is 14 years old. Because no self-respecting indie rocker, racist or no, would ever say something like that aloud. Except for maybe on Craigslist r/r.

Posted by: harlo at December 30, 2005 3:30 PM

Last month I was at a poetry event for Saul Williams and when asked what he thought about hip hip today, he said, "Back in the 80's it was about lyrical content and now it's moreso about being in sync with the beat to the flow, and to the delivery." Seems simple enough, but it is an astute observation from a die hard hip hop fan, he also recited Rakim in "Follow the Leader" to give an example.
I have not listened to anything by Cam'ron nor Jeezy but I was annoyed at their placement on the list over Edan's "Beauty in the Beat" which has better samples, better beats, and in my personal opinion better word play. What I do find to be annoying about PFork's recent catering towards more main stream stuff is not that they look find something in the lyrics that is impressive, moreso this catering to these awful beats that sound like shit. This droning, thick, repetitive, unmelodic, unharmonic goo they call a beat is shameful and regressive. I am a jazz beat, GangStarr, Tribe, Peanut Butter Wolf, Madlib, sort of hip hop fan. I have always found the beats and samples to be as paramount as the lyrics. In the 90's there was a huge cultural schism in hip hop that has only widened the stratification between hip hop and rap. Rap is one dimensional, hip hop is not. KRS one put it best, "Don't be fooled. Rap is something you do, hip hop is something you live."

Posted by: JaseMo at December 30, 2005 11:06 PM

It's safe, now, to crop this debate. You can feel free to chop off and discard anyone who has weighed in regarding a "ploy/pose to seem hip-hop friendly...when we all know it's not really the case." Pitchfork is genuinely "rap-friendly," and the sedan-chair press that has been directed at rap phenomena throughout this year has been thoroughly earnest. Giving credence to anyone who thinks otherwise, let alone visiting rhetorical growls upon their matted heads, is wasteful. One may as well swim 30 yards out into the ocean, jerk off, have one's girlfriend kneel where the water is but waist deep, and hope that the jizz somehow finds its way into her mouth. That camp is composed of neither the current nor the intended audience of that which you publish.

(This is where I switch to the first person omniscient.)

That being said, allow me to express my heroic frustration at encountering the following juxtaposition:

Rap Guy:
"I done wrong in my time, now's time to do right
Suede boots on my feet, lookin way too nice
Act right or you best hope you wear vest
Or you might catch two to the chest HEEEEEYYYYYY"

Breihan:
"Rap Guy holds court here much like a lion rampant might embellish the crest of a proud royal family with its last scion cold and buried in the earth. His supremely confident cadence, paired with a hypnotic lyrical efficiency that evokes indentured servants changing out the movable type to print the next book of the Bible, is like unto the gravitas of an inhabitant of the very omphalos."

One time, when I was on the Internet, I came across a paper written by some dude. He had spent hours advocating a thesis that involved stylistic depictions of medieval-style armor relative to the subtextual statements made by directors in the course of editing their films, and what have you. Sure, why not? It was fine until he spent two pages postulating the metaphorical implications of the visual aspects of the armor in Garden State.

The post-grad white has been trained to contextualize furiously at all times. Passionate jigsaw literary association is his absolute favorite method of moving the crowd. Lest this absolute power (over the English language) corrupt absolutely (and make him look like a clown), post-grad white must remember that there's room in the world for a sight gag, and that one might occur at any moment.

To paraphrase somebody, if Pitchfork 2005 were a hapless, preoccupied pedestrian, and some significant percentage of street-hop were a banana peel situated directly within his path, with heavy portent, Pitchfork 2005 would stop short, snatch up the obstruction, and chuck it in the trash. Oh yeah, and this occurs in Times Square during the holidays, and everybody's watching.

It's not my intention to make a unilateral declaration that the music of The Game, Young Jeezy, 50 Cent et. al. is without merit. Merit, be thou quicksilver, slip thou through my busy hands. Nor is this a discussion of what music is acceptable to listen to, of course. It's about music writing.

Metatextual analysis of these cats is a cheap, masturbatory gimmick. Genre sycophancy is repellent. Several writers for Pitchfork seem to have bought into the hysterically broken binary moral system of "haters vs. they love me" and allowed such self-inflicted myopia to cloud their otherwise interesting communications with Their Audience. Some members of the audience have noticed, and are displeased. It would not be advisable to dismiss these people as haters. Follow?

Use discretion. Kanye and Clipse are ripe for Pitchfork-style analysis. So are Edan, De La Soul and Doom. So's Dipset, I guess, since Nick's got a handle on their relevance and mentions them in the course of writing awesome things. It's possible. But Cam's not James Joyce, and 50 is not even Matt Christopher.

Don't drag grad school through the gutter.

Posted by: Assman at December 31, 2005 1:06 PM

Forget about history for a moment, forget about context, even imagine there's no... (oops). No, really, rap is about flow and serious beats, and it's absurd to think the content of an "evolved consciousness" is more uplifting than the visceral kick of a hot ATL track. What puts the biggest smile, (or sly, thuggish grin), is my barometer. Rap producers are some of the best atm, and pushing soundscapes that are worthy. The flow of p4k's favored rap artists really could teach some indie-rockers a thing or two about vocalising: where to place sound & stress, and the nuances of tone. I wonder that more people can't remove their liberal-academic-pet-theory-goggles long enough to hear (damned, mixed that one) the music.

Posted by: jimmylock at December 31, 2005 6:49 PM

chris, you're greatness, but it would be nice to see some substance behind your flowery language. tangential claims (arguments tend to have warrents in them) of reverse racism, suburban fantasy, guilt etc arn't that persuasive.

your core statement seems to be that the clipse is merely "vacuous, image rap". i'll give you jeezy, but the clipse's shit cuts alot deeper . i think there are big, disturbing ideas running throughout this thing.

clipse dont change the materialistic framework of mainstream hip-hop, but they do explore how far humans are willing to go. their lyrics arn't the communist manifesto in terms of a radical big idea, but they are the (knowing) excess of free market economics. a historic parallel might be the british east india company, its opium wars, and the destruction of the chinese population. both entities willing to exploit whomever and whatever.
'all the snow in the timepiece confusin them/all the snow on the concrete peruvian/i flew em in, it ruined men, i'm through with them/blame for misguiding their life/so go and sue me then.'
the clipse, with tracks like 'monopoly' and 'the corner', might be the embodiment of adam smith's idea that opium was a legitimate product, the same as any other commodity. both tracks set out to establish territorial domination and open up local markets, the same as the east india company with respect to india and china, at whatever costs.

the clipse are even willing to sell their own race out for profit.
'you the bottom of the food chain/i spit on your grave/you the modern day african capturing slaves.'

the clipse aren't fucking dupes unwilling or unable to comtemplate the evil shit they're up to.
'more often than not i find myself confused/cruisin' in that drop, and still i feel, as if im nothin more than a hampster in a wheel.'

aside from all that, the boys beat selection is impeccable.

i tried to clean up my thoughts as best i could, but im a terrible writer.

Posted by: cheshire_05 at December 31, 2005 7:10 PM

um, yea. Well I'd just like to say as an MC, cam'ron and the clipse suck dick. Why so many indie critics love em, I have no fucking idea. Thank you.

Posted by: razethat at January 2, 2006 12:14 PM

Wait, we're missing the elephant in the room here: Pitchfork still isn't paying its writers?!?

Posted by: emptypockets at January 3, 2006 4:47 AM

I agree with everything you say. I am sick of people being so closed minded when it comes to rap. I was at a New Years party and we were listening to Juelz, 3-6 and the usual and this one kid started going off about rap. First off I had a 59-50 Twins hat on and this guy started giving me all this racist Ali-G crap. Like "ha ha you are so funny." I told him it wasn't a game and asked what his favorite albums of the year were. Death Cab and Anatomny and the Jonestons or whatever, easitly stated he obviously reads pitchfork. I was seriously mad at this kid. And after the party I was like "what does this guy think when he reads a review of "Shotter" on pitchfork. I guess I now know, he must want there to be seperate lists.
I've Had It!

Posted by: Kevin Kash at January 3, 2006 12:26 PM

ott or not?

Posted by: pat r at January 9, 2006 4:22 PM

Assman, you've expressed exactly what I've felt while reading Pitchfork's reviews. Bear in mind, though, that the same criticism, in my view, can be applied to its indie reviews, or any other genre besides rap.

At one level music is something you listen to, enjoy, and think about. At another we have the mastubatory critical style that attempts to apply Postmodernist literary theory or whatever else to something that often doesn't merit it.

But from the writer's point of view this fills up space and makes them look like they are doing their job, i.e. to provide some useful insight into the music that mere mortals cannot. Often it's just tounge-in-cheek and adds an element of humour: the kind of people that read Pitchfork or blogs like Stereogum are slightly more obsessed with their music than the average singles-buyer and like to treat it with that kind of reverence.

Over-analysis is a problem, but I've even encountered it in textual analysis of canonically acceptable literature - sometimes I'm presented with a theory and think to myself 'if Byron was in the room, would he really say that or would he find it laughable that this is propping up an industry of obscure and self-indulgent lit crit that tries to find meaning where there is none?'

Pitchfork does do a good job, however, and their reviews are undeniably more interesting to read than 'Check this shit out, it's HOT!'

Posted by: Alex at January 13, 2006 8:36 AM

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