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Cam'ron and Jim Jones: Not Friends Anymore

Posted by Tom Breihan at 7:13 PM, May 7, 2007

dipset.gif
Less than music?

Consider this scenario: Young Dro, emboldened by the success of "Shoulder Lean" and "Rubberband Banks," launches a campaign against T.I., publicly announcing that his former member had humiliated him one too many times and announcing Pimp $quad Click will have to go on without him. Ridiculous, right? That's not quite what happened this weekend, but the impending shitstorm between Cam'ron and Jim Jones really isn't all that different from that scenario. On Saturday afternoon, Miss Info blog-posted the results of a phone conversation she'd had with Jimmy, quoting Jimmy thusly: "Me and Cam’ron havent spoken to each other in a year… I kept quiet out of loyalty, I felt like if we cant be friends then at least we can do business together… But now I can’t be next to you… I’m through wit being in hot water because of you… We still the Diplomats. We worked too hard to achieve our own success and now we’re gonna do something new." Jones will talk to Funkmaster Flex on Hot 97 later tonight about the split, and it'll be interesting to hear what exactly pushed Jones to cut ties with the one guy in his crew who's managed to sell any significant number of records. Jones may have come a long way since his days as the Fabio-looking dirtbag in the "Horse & Carriage" video, but he hasn't come so far that he can expel the guy who leads the Diplomats and who remains the only reason he has a career in the first place. And, I mean, at least Dro can rap.

The Diplomats' status as a rap group has always been a little weird, considering that only maybe two or three of their rappers are actually any good at putting words together. Dipset's emerged as a dominant presence in NY rap mostly through all sorts of extracurricular reasons: their catchphrases, their visual aesthetic, their willingness to beef with pretty much every other rapper in the city. They've painstakingly created an image of themselves as a bunch of genial, unpredictable knuckleheads, and they've embarrassed themselves as often as not, but there's something oddly admirable in the way they pursue their most ridiculous ideas (a rollerblading team?) until they either yield monetary rewards or spectacularly smash to pieces. Kids love them; in Brooklyn, I've seen the word "Dipset" written in wet concrete as often as I've seen, say, the word "fuck." But the Diplomats have still failed to emerge as either a consistent commercial force or a disciplined, unified movement in the Wu-Tang mold. Part of the reason, certainly, is Cam'ron. He's the group's most gifted and visible rapper, and he's the main reason anyone knows the group's name, but he's also one of the weirdest and most introverted rappers to build any sort of commercial profile in recent memory. When guys like 50 Cent go for maximum cross-demographic appeal by paring their lyrics down to their most discernible, relatable essences, Cam chases tangents, builds insular vocabularies, and generally lives within his own head. Nobody understands everything Cam says, and that probably includes Cam himself. I was talking to Ryan Dombal about this a couple of weeks ago, and he pointed out that Cam might've been a huge influence on the free-associative absurdism Lil Wayne has honed to a frighteningly sharp point on Da Drought 3 and that that influence might be why Wayne so continuously shouts out Dipset on that same mixtape. But that unfocused delirium is what made Cam a relatively unimpressive battle-rapper in his beefs with Jay-Z and 50 Cent; he doesn't have the lazer-focused passion that he'd need if he wanted to score serious points against those guys. And those same qualities make him an unconvincing leader; you can't expect him to make a good figurehead when he barely even seems bigger than himself.

Jones is the exact opposite. He has none of Cam's livewire brilliance, but he's funny and accessible, and his lyrics aren't exactly hard to figure out. As of a few months ago, he also had a hit song and a catchphrase and a signature dance, which is apparently all you need to be taken seriously as a rap star in 2007. The talent differential between Cam and Jones is roughly the same as the one between Ludacris and Chingy, but that doesn't seem to matter anymore for any number of depressing reasons. By all accounts, Jones is completely convinced of his own king status, which means he probably gets seriously annoyed whenever Cam goes and does some ridiculous shit like goofily advocating the stop-snitching stance on 60 Minutes or calling Hot 97 to yell at 50 Cent. If the Cam/50 beef proves anything, it's this: the divide-and-conquer tactic works, at least as far as New York rap beef is concerned. On "Curtis," Cam says that Young Buck is the hottest one in G-Unit; a few weeks later, 50 Cent's on Hot 97 saying that he might have to kick Buck out of the crew. On "Funeral Music," 50 says that Jones is in charge of Dipset; a few weeks later, Jones is calling Miss Info to say that he's the boss of Dipset and that Cam is now out. (The fact that Cam owns all the Dipset trademarks doesn't appear to bother Jimmy.) Still, it might not actually be the 60 Minutes interview or the ill-advised 50 beef that finally caused Jones to get fed up with Cam. It might be the recent rumor that rap nobody Tru Life slapped Cam outside some club and that Cam didn't retaliate. And so rap moves ever closer to pro-wrestling; whenever a popular rapper allegedly shows any sign of public weakness, he's suddenly persona non grata. If this crisis actually shows Jones to be the leader of the Diplomats, it'll be a clear sign that the group prizes business over artistry. And I'm just naive enough to hope that's not the case. Either way, though, it's not like this mess will turn out well for either of them.

Sometime last year, I was sitting in a Koch conference room killing time and waiting to interview J.R. Writer. The only other guy in the room was a Dipset underling whose name I can't remember, and he was watching a DVD mixtape report on the ongoing dispute between two rappers: Murda Mook, who I only know from this battle, and Frenchie, who I don't know at all. Outside insular NY mixtape circles, these guys had basically no profile at all, and still they were wasting time shitting on each other. Cam and Jones are both famous, but neither one is a megastar, and it's not like this impending beef is going to raise either of their profiles. Instead, it's just the beginning of another sad chapter in the history of an NY rap scene that can't keep its shit together.

Voice review: Jon Caramanica on Cam'ron's Purple Haze

comments

i've only heard Come Home with Me, but if that's any indication Cam is straight-up boring as a rapper. other than the fact that that song 'bout venereal diseases was kinda amusing i don't really get what dude's appeal is. and "Oh Boy" is the worst Just Blaze-produced single evar.

that said i do like that Kanye joint off Purple Haze.

Posted by: T.R.E.Y. at May 7, 2007 8:27 PM

in retrospect, this seems kind of obvious.
off the top of my head, cam isn't in the "we fly high" remix video. juelz is. cam wasn't on-stage with jim at the bet awards. juelz was.
it's obviously egos at work here. cam obvioulsy doesn't want to play hypeman to jimmy who is now obviously the most recognizable member of dipset in a broader pop culture sense, or at least has the most recognizable song.
come to think of it, we all know wayne and juelz are bff, and wayne was also in the "we fly high" remix video and calls out jimmy a lot but you never really here wayne mention cam or there even being a connection between them aside from maybe "suck it or not."
it seems as if cam has long been out of the dipset loop wheteher we all realized it or not.
it's obvious what is happening here: jim is the star of dipset to the world, so he wants to be the star of dipset to dipset. obviously cam isn't with that, and so the problems arise.
WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO DIPSKATE???!!

Posted by: j ordan at May 7, 2007 9:24 PM

i heard mook talking heavy shit about cassidy, but after looking at that battle, it's obvi homeboy couldn't stand a chance.

Posted by: fullscale008 at May 7, 2007 10:22 PM

I went to high school with "murda" Mook.

Posted by: Etep at May 8, 2007 12:31 AM

^
he always gets called out for going to a prep school and not living the "murda" past etc. etc.
truth?

Posted by: j ordan at May 8, 2007 12:34 AM

yeah, it was a prep school. but he used to always be writing rhymes, but we all thought he bit a line here and there from other rappers thinking the majority of us wouldn't catch em, but some of us did. I remember he used "hard dick and bubblegum" once I think.

Posted by: Etep at May 8, 2007 12:50 AM

"...publicly announcing that his former member had humiliated him one too many times"

The priapic rapper?

Posted by: faux_rillz at May 8, 2007 12:55 AM

Writings been on the wall for a little while, the smack outside of Stereo might of been the nail in the coffin. Wonder if all this has anything to do with cam only appearing on one track on the new duke da god album. Definitely agree on wayne being inspired by cam though.I gotta say dude switched up his flow like no other rapper ever from his first two records to his style now.(cam not weezy)I'm probably the only person in the world who actually liked the killas season album though. btw, when did jim jones ever look like fabio?

Posted by: g-bro at May 8, 2007 2:01 AM

g-bro-
I like 'Killa Season', I even like the movie! For a while, like 2000ish, Jim Jones had this really incredible perm sort of thing, maybe that is why Tom is referring to.

Posted by: brandonsoderberg at May 8, 2007 3:42 AM

The gap between Jim Jones and Cam is a lot narrower than the gap between Young Dro and T.I. Jim Jone's album has probably outsold Killa Season by now.


My guess is Jim Jones has finally decided he's big enough he doesn't need Cam anymore. A year ago when they stopped talking he probably wasn't so sure.

All that said though, Cam is one of the most over-rated rappers out there. I never heard Purple Haze so maybe there's something I'm missing, but I thought Killa Season was trash. He sounds like an amateur. Judging by that I wouldn't even say he's a better rapper than Jim Jones.

Posted by: JJRS at May 8, 2007 7:10 AM

"All that said though, Cam is one of the most over-rated rappers out there. I never heard Purple Haze so maybe there's something I'm missing,"

so why don't you listen to Purple Haze first rather than form an uninformed opinion based on his worst album to date (imo.)

Posted by: slope at May 8, 2007 8:51 AM

word to slope, re: JJRS's stupid post. And although Jim is more of a commercial force than Cam, anyone who thinks Jim holds a candle to Cam lyrically is a fucking idiot or someone born after 1991. Cam's not what he used to be, but he can throw this Weezy line in Jim's face any day of the year: "you ni**as couldn't even be who i was."

Posted by: dallas1978 at May 8, 2007 10:02 AM

Boy, I would just love to hear rappers of the caliber of ill bill and necro shit all over all these boring, lame-ass, garbage scrub rappers. Street Villians Vol 3 should just be those too cats unloading on all the current unbeliveably wack NY mcs populating the musical landscape these days. If you've ever heard those dudes diss on Michael Jackson off that mixtape you know what I'm talking about. I'll take the grimy Braunstein bros aesthetic and approach to rap music over those down syndrome dipset assholes any day of the week. Honestly, fuck Jim Jones, fuck Cam-ron, and fuck dipset for that matter. They all make the dudes from the Beanuts seem like lyrical geniuses. They're definitely on some kindergarten type shit, that's for sure.

Posted by: Panthro at May 8, 2007 1:39 PM

wow first time ive ever seen necro and ill bill mentioned on here. Etep, everybody uses that hard dick and bubblegum line.I've heard at least three variations on it. I think it's to the point where people don't even know who said it first.(Big L not Jay).

Posted by: g-bro at May 8, 2007 3:34 PM

lawlz@Necro shoutout

Posted by: T.R.E.Y. at May 8, 2007 4:51 PM

when did jim jones ever look like fabio?
^^

or peep the "oh boy" video...haha.

cam has had so many great songs -- more than most, i'd say. i've hated jim jones ever since he stumbled and grunted his way all over "dead or alive." i think cam will endure as a creative force in rap, and i doubt that jimmy will recreate the success he enjoyed with "ballin." he should stick to his gangsta-azz a & r job at warner if he still holds that shit.

Posted by: SordidPuppy at May 8, 2007 6:28 PM

"Cam might've been a huge influence on the free-associative absurdism Lil Wayne has honed to a frighteningly sharp point on Da Drought 3 and that that influence might be why Wayne so continuously shouts out Dipset on that same mixtape."

people keep asking why lil' wayne keeps shouting out dipset in songs, and while i have no idea what the concrete reason is, there's an interview with him on the young money websity where somebody asks him in a fan q & a whether or not he's in diplomats and he replies that he's "dipset affiliated" and tight with cam, which would make sense since he's guested on several cam and juelz songs and has the "i can't feel my face" mixtape coming out with juelz. but yeah, i see cam influencing weezy's flow and rhyme style a lot, to the point that i think you can now consider him the cam'ron of the south, complete with the bizarrely rhymes, over confidant and underwhelming rap crew, and the nonsensical beefs with people like jay-z.

Posted by: manimar at May 8, 2007 7:53 PM

guess when i think of fabio i think of a big blonde white dude,i suppose he's got the hair though. goonie goo goo.

Posted by: g-bro at May 9, 2007 12:06 AM

Sure, I might check out Purple Haze. But I heard what he did before it (Come home with me and horse and carriage back in the day) and after. Purple Haze would have to be one hell of a career spike to change my mind.

Understand: I didnt say Jim Jones was a good rapper. He's mediocre at best. I just said he's better than Cam.


The guy sounds totally wooden and he's got pre-school level rhymes, all this Scooby-dooby-tooty-frooty bullshit. Take Lil Wayne's Da Drought 3, for example. Cam could never rap like that, never did and never will. He might have been an "early inspiration" but thats it. I dont understand how anyones a fan of both could put them in the same league.

Posted by: jeff stewart at May 9, 2007 9:27 AM

>>Purple Haze would have to be one hell of a career spike to change my mind.<<

It's weird that you say this, because that's pretty much what "PH" is. I like Cam pretty much only because of that record and a couple of radio freestyles he did, and both "Killa Season" and "Come Home With Me" [while better than his other garbage albums] are light-years behind "Purple Haze." The stars aligned for "Purple Haze" -- incredible beats, years of limbo where he actually wrote rhymes, hilarious punches -and- strong verse content...the works.

Posted by: Seth at May 9, 2007 9:50 AM

that much better, huh? I really will check it out.

Posted by: jeff stewart at May 9, 2007 6:21 PM

Wow, I never thought that a dude. Could sit all the way on the other side of the continent and mind fuck a group so bad that a nigga and his boy after countless number of years (seriously S.D.E. Came out during mesazoic peroid, right?) Now I sat there heard the interview between him and fifty and have to honestly say he "shitted on that nigga" I mean 50 couldn't even say nothing his retaliation video got shitted on by the "hey Curtis" video but fifty still won by proving one thing, that people on this planet would sell there own grandmothers to girls gone wild for the right price. Jim completely sold out. Like rick ross's baby mama. But to his nigga though. Jim listen, give that nigga back his money and get your self respect back. All those so called homies of yours writer, santana, rell, zeeky, you and cam are fucking them niggas over because of your pethetic egos.that nigga straight said his diabolical scheme right on the song and I know you sat there like I wonder how he going to pay me. I'll give you more credit than the rest of everybody. I think your good, just not that good without any moral sense of being. There carrer's are basically over because of this.(juelz probably the only one to survive, because of his own perseverence and luck maybe I should add comercialism) damn do anybody know the word integrity anymore, shit. Loyalty, right?

Posted by: Nate at April 3, 2009 9:46 AM

P.S. That nigga still look like a rusty ass black Fabio.

Posted by: nate at April 3, 2009 9:52 AM

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