"On "1 Thing," Rihanna's big 2005 single..."

Proofread, plz.

Posted by: steve horowitz at June 7, 2007 7:23 PM

Uh, wait, we're supposed to classify Rhianna as R&B? I'd prolly put her down as some strange pop offspring of dancehall and club music.

I'm waiting for Mary J. Blige to make an album called "R&B is Dead"

Posted by: coqui at June 7, 2007 7:55 PM

yeah, i dunno how exactly Rihanna's R&B.

i gotta say i appreciate Tim's variety on this album, even though "Rehab" is a near-carbon copy of "What Goes Around." still, that "Sell Me Candy" track is very weird-cool, and "Lemme Get That's" good too, for somethin' on that "Hollaback"/"London Bridge" shyte.

is Danjahandz gonna take care of all the rap for Timbo from now on? i dun get it

Posted by: T.R.E.Y. at June 7, 2007 8:22 PM

please let this be the only time you quote curren$y or any other member of young money in your caption

Posted by: manimar at June 7, 2007 9:42 PM

oh, and Rihanna's performance at the MTV Movie Awards was a study in contrasts. Amy Winehouse's performance after was a trainwreck

Posted by: T.R.E.Y. at June 7, 2007 11:02 PM

Rihanna is a new breed. R&B used to be a step apart from mainstream
whitebread britney-spears-style pop music, but now it's getting a lot more commercial. They're horning in on the audience that white stars like Spears and Aguilera used to have.

I agree its a really exciting time for R&B, even if its not really R&B anymore. The producers are injecting all kinds of cool elements into it, like club music, techno, old 80's style tunes, even acoustic guitar ballads over hip hop beats.

My theory is that when Timbaland left rap for the wider world of pop music, R&B started following him. Rihanna's new album is a great example, even more on the songs he didn't produce than the ones he actually did. Listen to the 80's synth pop on "Push Up On Me", the whole sound is jacked from "Promiscuous Girl". And "Umbrella" and a lot of the other songs sound like post-Danjahands Timbo too. Play them next to the "We Takin' Over" beat, and see how they fit.

I don't really mind that Rihanna isn't such a good singer...I would probably love her new album just as much if Stacey Orrico or Christina Milan had sang it instead...R&B might be a singer's medium, but
this is pop music. And pop music is very much a producer's medium.

Posted by: JJRS at June 8, 2007 8:16 AM

Good post... To me, the thing that seperates these two (and you said basically the same thing, perhaps worded a little differently) is Amerie's ability to sing emotionally and unrestrained, whereas Rihanna's vocals, to me, always seem sort of constrained and forced. The best pop vocalists aren't necessarily the ones with the best pitch, training, etc., but those who can capture the sort of emotion and energy that we want to hear when we listen to pop music.

That being said, and I fought this for a while, but "Umbrella" is a pretty great song, my general dislike for Rihanna notwithstanding.

Posted by: jamie radford at June 8, 2007 9:58 AM

oprah friendly histrionics? nothing personally honey but if you seriously think that, then maybe you shouldn't be writing about R&B. maybe you havent had the pleasure of seeing MJB live or checking her out on award shows; eg the katrina benefit where she flat out stole "one" out from bono- so much so that he stepped away to let mary shine. can mary 'sing?".. no'"technically she's flat most of the time but the woman is pure emotion puts her all into it as though it's her last show and though i hate to compare, really is the closest thing this generation has had that even approaches aretha. mary set the style, sound and stance of modern R&B. she never fails to deliver. histrionics. good lord- i'd hate to ponder what you think about chaka or patti. as to why rhianna 's getting the push?. i figure it's cause def jam has very few females on the roster. i believe she is a jay-z signee- and he has a lot to prove since not too many of his acts are doing much . he should have done what he wanted to and sign winehouse. rhianna sells pretty well so the label will then pump more cash into the promotion. she's young. i dont think she's all that but most guys think she's cute. she's not american so that makes her stand out a bit. she, or rather her producers, have gone for a less obvious sound.she's less hood than keyshia or fantasia. as to why she's considered R&B. with very few exceptions- (like they have a guitar in their hand) pretty much ALL black artists are considered R&B. labels are divided up btw "urban" and "pop" and as soon as an "urban" act sells big numbers they get handled by the "pop" department.apartheid(sp) lives in the record industry- nice huh? makes my job just oh so festive.

Posted by: ramona at June 8, 2007 10:30 AM

amy's performance was a train wreck because amy IS a train wreck. ive seen her 3 x now, once for fun' two x for work. she is one of the better singers in quite a long time.-unlike rhianna , amy was not lipsynching at mtv, maybe because she wasnt waving an umbrella around in some barbarella meets fosse musical. amy, most importantly, writes. amy is a vocalist. even when she's half in the bag she never misses a note. this is not to dis rhianna- she and amy are two way different sides of a coin.
the 'trend" towards young, hot, thin, robots isnt new. with rare exceptions eg amy, mary, joi, keyshia to some extent, trina brusard(totally mangled that spelling, sorry) R&B, especially on the girl side is all producer driven. no big news there.these days you're either a baby beyonce or a baby mary and mary's approaching 40 - glue factory!
to my ears, damaged as they may be, the only non- singing singer who pulled it off and gave you a feeling that she did'nt just walk into the studio and sing what was in front of her was aliyah. i hear and see her in so many of the new chicks. god, to even imagine what she would have developed into..

Posted by: ramona at June 8, 2007 10:44 AM

I thought there was some rule that "Comments" couldn't be longer than the actual post, but Ramona has repeatedly proved that supposition wrong.

Posted by: FILMDAN at June 8, 2007 12:37 PM

The technology of making music today has a lot to do with the way it sounds. If any of you get a chance, hook up REASON to your computer, get a midi controller and YOU TOO WILL SOUND LIKE EVERYONE ON THE RADIO.
Then, kick back some of the money you'd get to the A&R or company that would sign you as a songwriter or producer and you'll be off and running.

Also, this Rhianna , Ciara, etc. grab bag of sampled beats and nursery rhyme melodies is not fabulous at all.

Posted by: Babysister at June 8, 2007 1:14 PM

The technology of making music today has a lot to do with the way it sounds. If any of you get a chance, hook up REASON to your computer, get a midi controller and YOU TOO WILL SOUND LIKE EVERYONE ON THE RADIO.
Then, kick back some of the money you'd get to the A&R or company that would sign you as a songwriter or producer and you'll be off and running.

Also, this Rhianna , Ciara, etc. grab bag of sampled beats and nursery rhyme melodies is not fabulous at all.

Posted by: Babysister at June 8, 2007 1:15 PM

The technology of making music today has a lot to do with the way it sounds. If any of you get a chance, hook up REASON to your computer, get a midi controller and YOU TOO WILL SOUND LIKE EVERYONE ON THE RADIO.
Then, kick back some of the money you'd get to the A&R or company that would sign you as a songwriter or producer and you'll be off and running.

Also, this Rhianna , Ciara, etc. grab bag of sampled beats and nursery rhyme melodies is not fabulous at all.

Posted by: Babysister at June 8, 2007 1:15 PM

The technology of making music today has a lot to do with the way it sounds. If any of you get a chance, hook up REASON to your computer, get a midi controller and YOU TOO WILL SOUND LIKE EVERYONE ON THE RADIO.
Then, kick back some of the money you'd get to the A&R or company that would sign you as a songwriter or producer and you'll be off and running.

Also, this Rhianna , Ciara, etc. grab bag of sampled beats and nursery rhyme melodies is not fabulous at all.

Posted by: Babysister at June 8, 2007 1:15 PM

sorry about that quardruple post...keys stuck

Posted by: Babysister at June 8, 2007 1:39 PM

b*tch, don't you hear me! babysister's trying to holla!

Posted by: drmario at June 8, 2007 1:55 PM

b*tch, don't you hear me! babysister's trying to holla!

Posted by: drmario at June 8, 2007 1:57 PM

here's a word count on comments? oh well. im' a size queen.

Posted by: ramona at June 8, 2007 2:35 PM

except for Take Control,Hate 2 Love U + Paint Me Over, that Amerie album is utterly trite. Thin voice and all, the Rihanna disc holds up much better!

Posted by: SurfiNerd at June 8, 2007 7:00 PM

mmm ok, didn't know a short comment would get that long of a response.

i gotta say given some rave reviews i've seen, i ain't been super-impressed with Amy Winehouse from the little i've heard. just not my style i guess

Posted by: T.R.E.Y. at June 8, 2007 7:12 PM

winehouse is a pure singer. not an "act" .sad thing is many folks today don't know what that is.great songwriter, too- another discipline sadly awol. let's hope she lives to make another two cds as sweet as she has already done.

Posted by: ramona at June 8, 2007 9:25 PM

"real singer" or not, i can't dig what i've heard. sorr-ay

Posted by: T.R.E.Y. at June 8, 2007 10:37 PM

@ramona

You don't think that perhaps Winehouse's soul-throwback fake-authenticity thing is an "act", too? And he only sense she's a "real singer" is if real has recently become a synonym for "boring". If that's all she can do with real, maybe she should start looking at "fake".

Posted by: saturdayclub at June 10, 2007 2:33 PM

if you don't dig winehouse, fine. different strokes but listen to her first cd. this isnt fake anything. i have spent time with her- if it's an act she deserves an oscar. this chick has music in her scary skinny bones. she's a songwriter- an award winning one, actually, unless that's not cool enough for you kids. chaka. mary.aretha. dinah. lauryn. shirley. gladys. mavis. annie lennox. lisa stansfield. sandra st victor. la india. dawn robinson. stephanie mckay. toshi regan. if that's fake and boring-sign me up. is amy there yet? no but she's close , and if she's good enough for nona hendryx then she's good enough for peons like me.3/4 of the musicians ive played the cd for love her and that has more heft than a blogger.. but jeez; they're muscians, what do they know?. PLUS amy pulls it off live- even three sheets in the wind.i may be old as dirt but im happy i got to hear women who can sing and throw down live.like i sed, if she's not your taste, that;s totally fine. but to question her 'authenticity? i question yours. please.... i hope she lives long enough to record a third cd.

Posted by: ramona at June 11, 2007 4:38 PM

Everyone in music has an act, Winehouse is annoying because her act is she has no act. Ramona, you bought in Akon too, no?

Authenticity is always questionable, what really matters is "honesty" or sincerity and Winehouse is incredibly insincere.

I've yet to read a successful defense of her. Yes, she can sing, Just admit she sings well but is full of shit.

Also, Ramona, for a supposed music writer, your spelling and punctuation is mind-boggling. Do you type with your feet? And stop with the first-names of musicians thing too,,,

Posted by: brandonsoderberg at June 11, 2007 7:56 PM

Brandon-

Re: [R]amona:

--your spelling and punctuation is mind-boggling--

"Is" or "are" mind boggling?

Perhaps you should hold yourself up to some sort of higher editorial standard as well. Are you not also a "supposed music writer"?

Posted by: FILMDAN at June 11, 2007 8:40 PM

Ramona said: "pretty much ALL black artists are considered R&B."

I would amend that to read "ALL *female* black artists..." I'm really getting sick of seeing Akon and Kels (among others) being referred to as "rappers".

Posted by: Eric B at June 11, 2007 8:47 PM

FILMDAN, that was sort of my joke... hence ending with ",,," instead of "..."

Posted by: brandonsoderberg at June 11, 2007 10:36 PM

Also, I'm not a music writer, I'm a douche with a blog.

Posted by: brandonsoderberg at June 11, 2007 10:41 PM

i never said i was a music writer and even if i was, i know plenty of writers who can't type- or spell...
my typing does suck- no argument there- i think faster than i type- or vice versa. and yes, my secret is out. i do type with my feet! tho it makes it hard to keep up the cute pedi. i think what i sed about akon is that his first few singles were sweet- now he is beyond annoying and somewhat of a perv. oh, yeah. i also thought it was cool that he was senegalese- that upset someone. you see, i have some sengalese friends. ive been there .when the sengalese team was in the world cup i rooted for them and when i read there was an R&B singer from senegal i rooted for him. simple enough, huh?

i am sort of amazed the hatred amy w evokes. more so than any male singer or rapper- or do you all think that half the crap rappers say they've done is real? ok, you hate amy- cool. how about r kelly? he's child molester, but i guess that's authentic. is amy any less 'sincere" or real than rhianna? nice cd but that child is more prefabricated than fema housing. what is it, seriously, that is fake about winehouse. who else do ya'll consider fake? back to amy.as someone who has known a ALOT of drug/alcohol abusers and has , sadly, been around many troubled young women, this young lady is not acting. jeesus. if anything have some compassion.she's a cutter. she's anorexic. she drinks to dangerous excess. she is more than likely bi polar and off meds. she's got a husband who cheated on her and now is back clearly to cash in. she has zero self esteem and so nervous she stutters both on stage and in the interviews ive read. i spoke to an art director pal of mine- she sed winehouse is so sweet, so shy but so clearly a little girl lost. she's 23 for god's sake!

you've yet to read a succesful defense of amy?hmm try bust, daily news, time, ew, rolling stone, hip hop soul, xxl, vibe, people,the times, la weekly, the voice, la times,cnn, washington post, mojo etc.have you seen her live? have you listened to her first cd? yeah. i'm busted. i spell like a spazz and type with my feet, but i listen to music with my heart. thank god.

and i used first names because i didnt feel lke typing them all out AND unless i am wrong most folks refer to ms franklin and blige and khan as aretha/mary/chaka respectfully. if you notice, i used the christin names of ms st victor, lennox and stansfield.
drives me batty when mainstream press calls mary or akon a rapper but admittedly while mr kelly might sing his own look/stance is pure hip hop.shouldnt he be in jail right now?

Posted by: ramona at June 11, 2007 10:49 PM

Why isn't R. Kelly "troubled"? Why is he bemoaned for being a fuck-up while Winehouse gets to make a career of it? Have you been running around defending Paris Hilton this past week?

Posted by: brandonsoderberg at June 11, 2007 11:46 PM

Ramona, by acknowledging that Winehouse has an act, I'm not accusing her of any particular "fakeness" - as Soderberg said, everyone in music has an act. Everyone is choosing what aspects of their life to include or omit, which aspects to emphasize and which to embroider.

What exactly do you mean when you say that Rihanna is not real? Her songs don't make any outlandish claims. Are you really trying to say that Rihanna could not possibly have lusted passionately after a man ("S.O.S.")? And it's rather audacious and counter-productive to demand that every song narrative has a basis in reality; even if Rihanna indeed hasn't cheated on a man and felt guilty about it ("Unfaithful"), that doesn't make her any more fake than it would make Ice Cube if he hadn't had the exact day he describes on "Good Day".

Or when you say that Rihanna is fake where Winehouse is real, do you mean, as people so often do, that Winehouse makes a critically acceptable form of music, like soul, while Rihanna makes pop?

Outside "Umbrella" I don't like Rihanna any more than I like Winehouse, but that has nothing to do with perceived inauthenticity. And I couldn't care less what your muso friends think; my ears are as good as theirs, and what I like is more important than what they like when it comes to what goes on my stereo.

See, you came up with a big list of singers you compare Winehouse to. And nearly without exception, they have one advantage over Winehouse, that being that they aren't trying to slavishly imitate music from 40 years earlier as the be all and end all goal of their career. You wouldn't have heard anything about Aretha Franklin if she'd spent her time trying as hard as possible to sound like her records had been made in the '20s.

Give Winehouse all the adoration you want. But if you're going to talk her up as something fantastic, find something else to talk about than how "real" she is and how she's "troubled". Fuck it, you've only convinced me that the girl needs a social worker, not a record contract.

Posted by: saturdayclub at June 12, 2007 1:42 AM

please , please , please dont say that you equate amy's "troubles" genuine or concocted to r kelly. he is up on several major criminal charges. he may or may not have, (and chances are the former) sexually abused under age women- teenagers. if you seriously think that aping billie holiday or having a neo girl group sound is the same as rape.. RAPE !!!!oh my god.

i refer to amy's troubles because several of the bloggers here have infered that it's a schtick. i am not defending dris a deeply disturbed woman. her "issues' are as "real" as kurt cobains to some extent - maybe the thing that bothers folks is that she is not only a fuck up, she sings about being a fuck up... i do think if she were a guy this wouldnt be as much of an issue. but that's another rant. AND calm down. i dont think she is the same par as cobain.
as for taking from the past- influences if they are reworked and not slavish, are fine by me. everyone has influences. to my ears and frankly to the ears of people in my age group- sadly old.. amy is doing a good job of paying homage without dick riding- so to speak. she is very much in the tradition of many UK soul singers who are way more in love with our musical past then american singers who, for the most part, are more fixated on the beat. i also appreciate that amy, like mary j, sings about things that are true to life.girls tend to focus on the heartbreak but an entire cd about getting fucked over and getting fucked appeals to many women who have lived that life.
'as for the other women listed. i am not saying she is in the same league; time will tell. i still stand by my opinion that right now, amy is the best pure singer- ie can sing with out pro tools and, well, is a vocalist. i have nothing against the girl singers who really can't sing. but sometimes you crave someone, of any sex, who can hit a stage and hit a note. maybe it's a generational thing but as fun as the rhianna cd is- there are times when you want something a tad more substantive. that's what i mean by 'real". "real" is the difference between ne-yo or babyface's songwriting or a guy whose thematic range runs from fuck me to fuck me to oh yeah and could you suck my dick while i watch you fuck your girl friend.again, not that those sort of 'lyrics" don't have their place, but when it's what a new generation thinks are songs. that's sad. so that is what i mean by 'real". and sorry to have eaten up the word count and please. dont have an OUNCE of sympathy for r kelly. he is a perverted old child molester.

Posted by: ramona at June 12, 2007 11:18 AM

I think the feminist (or really, pseudo-feminist) argument being made in opposition to Winehouse's detractors and here, used by Ramona is problematic.

If anything, I find myself suspicious of Winehouse because she seems to be taking advantage of these feminist views. She isn't anything new. Ramona you are wrong when you suggest women singers/performers can't sing about fucking-up, if anything, it is all the the music industry allows them to sing about.

You should sympathize with R. Kelly if you sympathize with Winehouse. If indeed, Ms. Winehouse has problems, I do indeed wish her to get help and have seen many people in my own life a great deal like her. What I do not like is Winehouse's exploitation of these problems for press and musical fame.

How is being an alcoholic any different, in terms of fucked-up ness or trapped-ness, than (maybe) being a child molestor? I know I'm out on a limb here, but seriously. Indeed, one is "worse" than the other but why that stops you from having the same kind of sympathy or idealizing his suffering/problems, I do not understand.

Posted by: brandonsoderberg at June 12, 2007 12:31 PM

if i cant type than brandon, my love, you cant read. i never said amy winehouse is something new- but rather a cool twist on an old pony. just like 99 percent of pop/rock/R&b etc acts.
i never said women cant sing about being fuck ups- i said the exact opposite.and trust i am all too well aware of how the "industry' treats women. especially if youre over 35. make that 25.
i am not using any sort of "feminist" rationale i certainly dont think winehouse is a feminist, for that matter. i think she's kinda lame in that area, but she's a kid. sadly most women under 30 aren't feminists these days.
i wrote something about winehouse- fine im outed. they werent hiring at ho-jos that day. i wanted to focus on the music: both on back to black and frank.love or hate her, she has won songwriting prizes, which is a fine credit. and she can sing. i was pointedly told, by my editor to focus on the scandal. the dish.when i interviewed amy and she is anything but media trained and in fact unskilled in quick cute bites, or even answering a question without losing track of what she was saying and stuttering so bad it's painful, she froze up unless the conversation turned to music or her music. so, to be fair, i think the press and the gossip sites(ala perez who is a big fan) love the puking, punching tattooing shit. that and her new fans who greet Rehab like its a rallying cry to get sloshed. its like when johnny thunders would play and the audience cheered every time he nodded. back to the dish..who cares that she has tattoos? who doesnt?

as for your defense or rationale of rkelly, even if it's theoretical or to invoke emotion etc... i dont know you. you are obviously a smart, thoughful young man and that's not patronizing.youre in your early 20's yes. that's young, to me. r kelly is a sick, twisted, indicted possible criminal. he is charged with sex crimes. i think that being a loud mouth alky with a bad stylist is way lower on the crimes against humanity scale than being a child rapist. gee, how about a misunderstood killer? i mean seriously. if amy , or fill in the drunk's name- drink to excess the only ones they hurt- unless they drive, are themselves. lets assume winehouse walks home from the bar. my heart goes out to the girl and others like her because i know how the movie ends . r kelly is indicted on felony rap /sex crimes.please. even in some post ironic, bloggarian POV the man is disgusting(and overrated but that's another rant and no, ive never liked him: even when he was in PA)

one- is a stupid fucked up drunk who some people think is the soul saviour and others don't. cool. no sweat. the other is, possibly very talented but a sick fuck. who rapes girls. RAPES TEENAGERS and pees on them. i have zero sympathy for him. i have no sympathy for rapists or anyone who takes advantage of children.i have a kid. most of my friends have kids.if anyone every fucked with my kid, or my god daughters id kill them.
75 percent of my pals are moms, regular 9-5ers, etc. im the exciting celeb in my circle- which is pitiful cause im pretty snoozy. i try not to hang with industry folks because theyre pinheads. but because i am in a creative field i do run into other creative people. i dont take their word for bond but am always interested in what musicians think of musicians because most of them have little time to check out new stuff.
a rapist.

Posted by: ramona at June 12, 2007 3:07 PM

Ramona,
When you invoke her cutting, her relationship's, her women-ness etc. and contrast it to male singers of the same sort, you are indeed invoking feminism. But you know more about that, enough to condescend to women under 30 (which you, of course are not)...

Although honest, you're pretty inconsistent. If you're going to connect Ms. Winehouse's music to her personal life and suggest they are connected, you should do the same with Kells.

Indeed, his insane work ethic and sexual explict-ness as of late, is connected to these charges and his reputation. He has nothing to lose and is showing it, good for him, child rapist or not.

Posted by: brandonsoderberg at June 12, 2007 4:53 PM

Goddamn!

"He has nothing to lose and is showing it, good for him, CHILD RAPIST OR NOT."

word?!

Posted by: coqui at June 12, 2007 5:50 PM

I would not and dont condescend to women under 30. some of my best friends are...it just makes me angry that more young women arent feminists and that they don't see that their rights are being taken away- ie roe v wade. i wish these girls(not all but a lot) would wake up and not care about fendi bags as much as their rights.not care about taking stripper classes and bikini waxes as much as the state of what its like to be female after 8 years of the GOP. i tell ya, im not loving aging but i am so glad i came of age in a society that at least pretended to care about women. i want my younger friends to get angry!
for the 107h time..the reason i mentioned all of aw's problems is because you all kept saying she wasnt real, that her whole thing was an act. my point was listen to her, talk to her, see her live- this is no act.her music reflects her pain; as does the art of many creative folks. she's bat shit crazy and deeply troubled. clearly so is r kelly and has been for ever. the boy aint right and in some ways, yes maybe his music reflects that(and man his new cd sucks and is foul) . but being all hung up over your mom dying and having that pain in your music and asking the public to feel his pain so he can feel up his babysitter? hell no. he's not crying out for help.he's giving everyone the finger and continuing on his merry way as his lawyers purposefully stall his case so that the once young victims will be on the stand as grown, more sexual women.

if rkelly is in pain- so f'n what. if i have to choose between the pain of a young woman or man and the pain of a pervert criminal- no choice. some of my fave artists have been in pain- some self inflicted, some societal etc. but the anguish of a junkie, or a lovelorn guy,while self indulgent at its worse, is not one long pity party for a rapist. im sorry- as a mother,a feminist, a woman, a human being. i can not and will not ever applaud or condone or put an intellectual spin on a man who is more than likely guilty of an absolutedly unforgivable crime. "kells" is a criminal. to celebrate his unraveling is disturbing. if he were bugging out because his kids died, he was sick, physically, etc, then , as terrible a song writer he is, i could maybe play along. but to feel an ounce of sympathy for a 45 year old rapist, who doesnt even have the compassion or self awareness or morality to care how offensive he is or how much pain he is causing his victims?- nope.like en vogue sed, youre never gonna get it.

Posted by: ramona at June 12, 2007 5:55 PM

"man his new cd sucks and is foul"

let me fix that for you:

"man, his last three cd's suck and are foul"

I'm mad at the rappers and singers who choose to work with this scumbag, and the general public for buying the man's childish output as of late. Oh, and he has sex with kids. What the fuck is wrong with people my age?!

Posted by: coqui at June 12, 2007 6:22 PM

Okay...
So, first, the issue is not that Winehouse is "fake" or "real" it's that she is clearly using her troubled persona for fame and attention. Indeed, her problems are real but when shes exposes them so clearly and so obnoxiously, well, any reasonable person would question her sincerity.

Second, why is it a choice between the two? Who said you had to choose one's pain or the other? My point was they are both sorta, kinda, a little bit the same...

Finally, I won't even get into questionable issues of consent and who is ultimately victimized in connection with these girls because I read what Ramona "sed" and I don't want her coming to my house...

Posted by: brandonsoderberg at June 12, 2007 6:50 PM

"any reasonable person would question her sincerity".. hmm

any reasonable person would be ashamed and appalled to even, for a second, say that a FUCKING 14 year old girl ASKED to be peed on and raped. who is ultimatedly victimized??? do you work for JIVE??? i swear, i feel like we're being punked. do you have ANY young female realtives? or friends? or a moral compass?god help the women you date.
ok class- repeat after me(and coqui) THE PAIN OF A DRUNK POP STAR EVEN IF THE ENTIRE G-DAM THING IS THE GREATEST ACTING GIG SINCE MERYL STREEP, AND A MAN WHO SEXUALLY ABUSES CHILDREN IS NOT THE SAME...it's not kinda sorta,could should woulda - its NOT THE SAME!!! holy mother of god! if this is what hip hop has done to this generation than im handing in, no, burning my ghetto pass. no wonder stripper poles and fake tits are more important than lyrics... thank you coqui for being a humane human being and having a sense of right and wrong. news flash - rape- like murder- isnt consenual.or are you already constructing a collegiate alibi for whoever killed jm jay? cause you know it must have been his fault- cause he had a door and you know- fame.sweet jesus. hell, im calling amy winehouse to come kick your ass. consenually of course.

Posted by: ramona at June 12, 2007 8:07 PM

This is amazing.

Posted by: brandonsoderberg at June 13, 2007 12:20 AM

Brandon, you're making some valid points, but you're really not helping yourself by defending Kells' personal life.

Posted by: Eppy at June 13, 2007 11:30 AM

Thank you, although I'm not really defending it. My point, however muddled, was more that even the worst people deserve sympathy.

I was also just making the point that one can't idealize or authenticate one musician's fucked-up-ness and not another's... R. Kelly is not more real or genuine because he pees on under-aged girls and Winehouse is not because she has a drinking problem.

Posted by: brandonsoderberg at June 13, 2007 1:27 PM

Brandon:

Re: Your last post: I can work with that, though I question Kells status as a musical genuis, which seems to be what prompts some people to give him a pass (a la Mike Jackson)

Posted by: coqui at June 13, 2007 6:46 PM

I'm not sure if it was directed at me, but I never called Kells a musical genius. Or if I did, I didn't mean that his genius justifies his possible pedophilia.

I think Kells, like Jackson, has something of a man-child, savant persona, that is probably half persona and half-"real" (like Winehouse!) and certain people use this to justify or be okay with their ahem- questionable actions. So, less to do with genius and more to do with being famous, wealthy, and possibly mildly retarded?

Posted by: brandonsoderberg at June 13, 2007 7:20 PM

It's strange to me how the sexual exploits of classic rock stars, from Jimi Hendrix and Jimmy Page to Poison and Def Leppard, with underaged teenagers were celebrated and laughed about. Jerry Lee Lewis saw his rock career fall apart only because he MARRIED his 13 year old cousin, and the country music crowd took him in and allowed him to shine for another decade.

I do not want to justify R. Kelly's actions by pointing out the cultural changes, but I just want those who stopped listening to his music to take a second look into why they stopped. Who else is in your CD player? It's probably not St Francis of Assisi's latest efforts-(I bet he would have made this beautiful progrock that would rule).

Anyway, if you are going insane at the mere thought of the sicknesses of addiction and pedophilia being similar, I recommend you watch the film "Fear of Fear."

A serious mental problem is not cool when it is exploited and sexified. R. Kelly doesn't exploit illness as something cool. Could you imagine him having songs about banging teenagers or even posing with them the way Winehouse does with alcohol??

Posted by: JohnQLegend at June 14, 2007 4:44 AM

not for nothing but kelly being a pervert-and yes there have been shitloads of them in r&b and R&B but he's pretty high on the list- so much so that no one even thought for a second that his marriage to aliyah and all the other rumours were just rumours-isnt why i dont listen to him. ive never liked him going back to public announcement. he's got maybe 2-3 songs, plus my kid was in a ghetto grade school during i believe i can fly and i swear. if i heard one more group of 7 year olds singing that freaking song i was gonna hurl. he's oily and his phrasing and the majority of subject matter drives me nuts. im sick of that style of singing. it has messed up R&B- in my opinion. i mean when gerald levert has to resort to the kelly styel fo singing- i dunno. i just dont dig it, man and im not someone who goes to sleep kissing a sam and dave poster. as for amy w. damn im not on her vagina or payroll. i just think her cd is fantastic. so do my boring friends. maybe it's generational and i am not being flip.to us, its a breath of fresh even if its recycled air and unlike my boring friends i actually listen to 'current' R&B. i love the sound, love the songs dont even mind the wig. i like that the songs are tight, crisp, under 4 minutes- that the cd is 10 tracks,concise. that, she is singing about something with substance even if it IS substances. i mean i havent heard a R&B singer sing about relationships, in what i see as a realistic fashion since mary j.as for the whole alky as promotional tool- i dunno. obviously i dont see it as such. i think she just happens to be a drunk who can sing and write. do you guys feel the same way re shane mcgowan, or replacements or johnny thunders- ok thunders did exploit his habit.its not a confronational question- just curious cause im not thrileld with disfunction being paraded around, in any form. i am a mother after all as well as an ex hype. that said rehab is one song .and is anti drinking because at the core of it, she remains a lonely, sad, rejected girl who drowns her sorrows and wishes she didnt have to resort to that. i much prefer the other songs, partcularily , you know im no good, title track, some unholy war, me and mr jones-come on ya gotta hand it to a girl who can write a song a bout NOT going to a nas show and kick it off with the line, what kind of fuckery is this? that is a great line. it's hilarious.

Posted by: ramona at June 14, 2007 1:03 PM

Ramona, you gots to chill- JohnQLegend made valid points without being a dick like me and you still respond with an out of control rant... and yes, everyone should watch 'Fear of Fear' (Fassbinder)

Posted by: brandonsoderberg at June 15, 2007 1:23 PM

Come on mayne, you can't come at somebody on some "do you type with your feet??" steez and then chastise them for not being civil.. you set the tone on this one.

I agree about maintaining compassion for the worst of us, but there's a world of difference between acting on a compulsion to harm yourself and acting on a compulsion to harm others.

I'm not sure how "successful defense" is applicable to matters of musical taste, but I like Amy's album quite a bit, though her vocal style does sound like an affectation at times, and the rush to anoint her as "the new queen of soul" is irksome and carries loads of baggage.

But if the hype machine insists on indulging its fetish for young white women doing old black music, at least they found one who does it much better than Joss Stone. I care far less about these issues, and whatever other persona/hype/backstory/"authenticity" issues, than i do about what the music sounds like.

Posted by: jsmooth995 at June 16, 2007 11:58 PM